Not even close.Originally Posted by joeriddick
This guy didn't even wait until the match was over before announcing the end of ROG's career
http://www.munsterfans.com/threads/3...21#post1109721
Not even close.
This guy didn't even wait until the match was over before announcing the end of ROG's career
http://www.munsterfans.com/threads/3...21#post1109721
People criticising ROG are aware that he hasn't started a game for club or country in 6 months and only four times in 2012?
It's funny under those circumstances when he comes on in the last 10 minutes of a high intensity game, throws 2 misjudged passes and gets the "jaysus this lad is finished. can't cut it anymore" treatment.
I agree write O'Gara off at your peril but I definitely think this is probably his last season and would like to see Keatley get the nod for the big games. Only if he's playing well enough though.
I've seen better centres in a box of Black Magic
When I rewatched my recording of the game and it got to those final phases, I thought there were only a few moments when the DG was actually on, but that Murray kept passing the ball to another pod of forwards. In fact I've just watched it back, so here's a step-by-step analysis of the chances we had in those last few minutes. (NB, it's worth remembering that Keatley was wearing 10, and ROG 22!)
After the slightly fluffed lineout is rescued by Holland and recycled, ROG receives the ball from Murray on 79.05. He shapes for the DG, but an Ulster player (Marshall?) sprints forward and blocks the path for the kick, so ROG passes to Downey who sets up the ruck. Lots of congestion here, and Murray sets up O'Donnell for another phase.
On 79.19, Keatley is a good 20 feet behind Murray, right in line with the posts (by the by, Afoa and several other Ulster defenders are offside at this point, well ahead of the hindmost foot), but Murray passes to a pod to his right, with ROG about 15 feet behind them. Had Keatley received the ball at this point, I'm absolutely, 100%, put-your-house-on-it certain that he'd have nailed the DG.
This pod drives forward and over the Ulster 22. ROG has moved further to his right, behind the pod that has recycled the ball - was this an opportunity refused, or was he trying to maximise space between himself and the Ulster defence? - and Murray passes back inside to another pod in line with the posts, with Holland receiving the ball.
On 79.35, ROG is now behind this pod, once again "in the pocket" somewhat to the right of the posts. Keatley is also trotting over to be a second DG option almost directly in line with the posts. This could be it ... however, Murray passes to another pod even further to the right than ROG is, the ball is recycled and Murray passes it to another pod closer to the middle of the Ulster 22. Not sure whether this is under direction from ROG or not, but I couldn't see a compelling reason for it. In any case, the Ulster defence makes a good job of rushing up and this time we recycle the ball, having conceded a couple of metres out from the 22.
On 79.46, ROG is again in the pocket but Murray looks at him before sending the ball to another pod out wide on the right. No doubt in my mind that this was under instruction from ROG. It looked to me like it was on, though ...
Munster retain possession but are conceding even more territory. The ball comes to ROG, who shapes to kick it as the clock goes red, but has to change his mind with the speed of the Ulster defender coming for the chargedown - again, looks like Marshall to me. We are now nearly back to the Ulster 10m.
After several phases of recycling, ROG receives the ball behind the Ulster 10m on 80.31. Obviously decides he's too far out for the drop, changes direction and passes to Keatley, who darts through and brings play up about 8 metres, successfully recycling.
Yet another phase, and ROG is standing in the pocket just inside the Ulster 10m. On 80.52 he raises his hand as Murray jogs up to the ruck, who nevertheless fires it to a pod out wide on the right. ROG then clearly indicates he wants another ruck closer in from the touchline, but when the ball is passed the Ulster defence are again up too quick for the DG, so Hurley takes it up.
ROG receives the ball on 81.22, but again decides the defence is up too fast. He takes the ball up himself and into contact and the Munster forwards have to recycle again. After two phases, the ball is turned over by Ulster and the game is over.
So - I've highlighted where to my eyes, there were four clear chances where the DG could have been taken, but wasn't (ignoring the times when Ulster's rush defence closed it down). At least two of those may have been down to Murray's decision-making as opposed to ROG turning it down, but I'm as sure as it's possible to be without actually having been on the pitch that on at least one occasion, that's exactly what he did. Forgiveable in the context of his first game in several months, but no less frustrating for that.
Never mind perception because it isn’t real. It’s only what people think. Go out and make them think something else.
- Alan Quinlan on believing in yourself
Keatley has to earn his spot. JJ also needs to gain a bit of maturity and kick on too.
Otaga Daily Times 2/5/2012
Taz-Where did you get that information as I have seen nowhere that he(Penney) was ruled out?
Editor - The writer stands by the Penney information.
Otaga Daily Times 3/5/2012
Editor-- This article originally said Rob Penney had missed out on the Munster coaching job. That information was incorrect.
Keatley at 10 for me, the time comes when you need to make a chnage and I'd lose games this year if necessary to have a new starting 10 next year who would be ready for it
David Wallace, James Coughlan - Heroes, Jonathan Davies
How do you suggest that jj gains maturity and kicks on, it appears to me that he has done everything asked of him so far and taken every chance presented to him....? Am I missing something?
Who knows.
Otaga Daily Times 2/5/2012
Taz-Where did you get that information as I have seen nowhere that he(Penney) was ruled out?
Editor - The writer stands by the Penney information.
Otaga Daily Times 3/5/2012
Editor-- This article originally said Rob Penney had missed out on the Munster coaching job. That information was incorrect.
Great post Chips, thanks.
I didnt go back to analyse the game but I wonder to what extent did having Keatley & O'Gara on the pitch, like 1st & 2nd receiver impact Murrays decision making? Any thoughts on that?
Starting outhalf for Munster A next season (he wasn't last season) as well as starting outhalf for newly promoted UL Bohs (which is probably going to be fairly challenging).
According to the Irish Examiner he might find himself playing fullback this Saturday.....
4 Feb 2011 - Gilmore on the General Election
"Frankfurts way or Labours way."
28 Feb 2012 - Gilmore on a yes vote for the fiscal treaty
"A vote for economic stability and a vote for economic recovery."
Although not having played this season he will surely have been training with the rest of the lads , getting used to the new patterns of play etc . What concerned me was how deep he was standing at 10 , much deeper than Keatley , if the new system is to work properly we need our 10 flat on the gain line holding defenders and creating space for those outside . Rog has the passing skills but no running threat, if he starts against the Dragons it will be interesting to see where he stands and how he implements the new game plan . It is daft to write him off after just ten mins particularly a player who rises to challenges and is a winner .
This time last year posters on the site were calling for Keatley's inclusion in the Irish squad for the Autumn internationals. By the end of the season the same posters had written him off and were claiming JJ was the 'FUTURE'. Now posters are writing ROG off. Wonder if they are the same ones as last year?
"They’re the benchmark that everyone else has to raise their game to meet." Alan Quinlan on Leinster
Your right there offshore some people are a little to quick to write ppl off after a few hairy ones. As an aside, saw on the club site that Costello has left out Barnes, Stringer, Butler and JJ from the A match 2moro. We might get to see young JJ in his first senior match this season. Hopefully he continues his upward curve cause from what I have seen of the boy between the U20 6N's and the JWC he has the skills to take over that 10 spot for a good while. While I think Keatley will prove dependable JJ's talent to me offers something more if he can perform to his potential.
Keatley has out himself in pole position with his (mostly) good performances thus far. However, ROG deserves a game or two to challenge for the 10 jersey and I think he'll get a start this weekend. Looks like Keatley will be fullback, which is interesting.
My main concern is JJ. I want to see him starting at 10 for every A game and starting at least a couple of Rabo games in the next few months. Paddy Jackson is no better than him and will be starting HEC games for Ulster. We need him to be seriously challenging Keatley and ROG by next season.
Hopefully JJ's performance in Belfast under the watchful eyes of Penney and Mannix has elevated him for this weekend.
I am the million man.
Ulster have one outhalf, which is why Paddy Jackson is starting. NOC is a mediocre player, and Luke Marshall is playing at centre. Munster have the best tactical kicker in rugby in ROG plus a gifted running outhalf in Keatley. The competition is much fiercer, and there's no shame if JJ is not up to their standard yet. He'll get some experience this year, and he'll be challenging by the start of next season, I imagine.
Let's not forget too that Penney will need time to mould him into the kind of outhalf he wants, a task it's not always easy to accomplish while the player is in the first team.
I hadn't realised that Daniel Carter had hung up his boots. Good luck in your retirement Dan and thanks for the memories.
Fair dues. I should have said NH rugby. Please award yourself a gold star or a biscuit or whatever it is you fancy.
Would that be a dog biscuit?
I realised I was dyslexic when I went to a toga party dressed as a goat
there is however something that needs to be looked at in your facts - he hasn't started a game for 6 months, he's 37 not 20, the benefit of these guys coming back in is even rusty they bring a different level quickly to the side. I think with a 37 year old you do have to look at how quickly that does come back. Let's be honest Williams got a kicking as quickly and he's not got 100 Ireland caps worth of experience to see him through things.
\"A million monkeys with a million crayons would be hard-pressed in a million years to create anything as cretinous as Battlefield Earth.\"
Scooby snacks
Cowardice lasts longer than Pain
He's 35, but i think the sentiment of your argument still remains.
He couldn't have - his first game of the season was in France and there were no tv cameras there. Williams first competitive game of the season was his fourth game.
I think Leinster were wise to reintroduce a load of their internationals away from the RDS with no tv coverage!
O'Gara is 35 and his first game of the season was 10 minutes into a high intensity interprovincial. Even with 100 caps, that would be a shock to the system. It might have been a bit easier to have started.
So,
O'Gara to stat at FH, Zebo in for O'Dea, would Earls not be the natural FB fill-in given Hurley not available?
I'm concerned by this statement on a few levels " hinted Keatley’s potential start at full-back may be with some encouragement from Ireland management...." Just great...! NOT.
Mostly because it doesn't recognise that we need a specialist FH, not another jack-of-all, master-of-none..... FB is a specialist spot, DH is doing well there this season after being moved all over the place last season. He had shown promise there previously too. Likewise FH is a specialist (& extremely important) job; I don't want to see Keatley adapting his style for that and possibly compromising his form at FH going forward. Using the IRFU logic we may as well start RoG at FB - they just want players on the field not recognising the different qualities that make players more suitable for one position or another. Is the madness about to start all over again thanks to 'our masters'?
If he wants to play RoG this w-end, what's wrong with Keats watching from the bench until/when he's needed?
The Irish management must have seen Keatley's chase and tackle on Payne on Friday and thought we could have a FB that can tackle!
I've seen better centres in a box of Black Magic
Very true 99. We seem to be fitting our squad rotations and positional play time a bit too much around the IRFU's wishes. To be honest im not the biggest fan of the player welfare program overall but I understand it for guys like ROG, BOD, POC, etc. Their all 30+ with a good few bangs and miles on the clock and need that extra few weeks.
But, what I cannot figure out is the holding back of guys like Murray, POM and Zebo. Their in their early 20's their recovery time, assuming no injury, is days from a match. They need game time more than the older fellas because the lack the automatic experience of knowing what to do when they come on the pitch. I have thought for a while that the younger Irish squad members are hindered and not helped by the program.
For whatever stupid reason O'Gara seems to have gotten more unjust criticism down through the years than most. He has been one of our greatest ever players and deserves more respect than he sometimes get. Anybody who had a go at him based on that 10 min last weekend is off their rocker. It's quite obvious any of those people who have criticized him this week did not watch any of the pre-season friendlies in muzzer cause if you were to go along with their line of thinking than half of our squad should have packed it in and retired based on those performances! I fully expect ROG to come out on Saturday and silence his critics once again.
"We've got to be really careful we get our backyard right before we start looking over the fence."
Rob Penney - Rugby coach and Philosopher
At home to the Dragons, that seems like a reasonable expectation. I wouldn't be overly surprised if you expected a Munster bonus point win as well - I do.
I'd be just happy with a comfortable win to be honest. I expect it to be a small bit sloppier than last week again seeing as a lot of changes look likely.
"We've got to be really careful we get our backyard right before we start looking over the fence."
Rob Penney - Rugby coach and Philosopher
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote