Keith Gleeson- Last Irish number 7 ? The back row conundrum

[Jackdaniels]

Can anyone think of a single decent international 7 Ireland have produced since KG retired? What wouldnt we give to have him back now. We have tried great players at 7 who werent 7's. Wally, SOB and next in line to be tried like that no doubt will be POM.

SJ & NR are probably as close as we have in Ireland to natural 7's, but neither is International standard. Although Jennings have never been given a fair and consistent run at it.
A match here and there over a 2 year period is no good.

A few years back we JOC & KG on the scene. We didnt know how lucky we were!

(anyone else think we should look at the possibility of Fez to 4, SOB to 6 thus opening the 7 position again?)

[NotreDameRFC]

move BOD there.

[rathbaner]

Can anyone think of a single decent international 7 Ireland have produced since KG retired?

David Wallace: Nothing more to prove.
Peter O'Mahony: He will be the best Irish back row since David Wallace by the end of this year's Six Nations.

[redherring]

Can anyone think of a single decent international 7 Ireland have produced since KG retired? What wouldnt we give to have him back now. We have tried great players at 7 who werent 7's. Wally, SOB and next in line to be tried like that no doubt will be POM.

SJ & NR are probably as close as we have in Ireland to natural 7's, but neither is International standard. Although Jennings have never been given a fair and consistent run at it.
A match here and there over a 2 year period is no good.

A few years back we JOC & KG on the scene. We didnt know how lucky we were!

(anyone else think we should look at the possibility of Fez to 4, SOB to 6 thus opening the 7 position again?)

Keith Gleeson, decent and international in the same sentence....... I needed that laugh! The Dublin press (and Hook) went on and on about how he was far better than Wally and they picked him down in Oz (due to injuries) in 03 and he showed he was good HC at best!

[redherring]

Can anyone think of a single decent international 7 Ireland have produced since KG retired? What wouldnt we give to have him back now. We have tried great players at 7 who werent 7's. Wally, SOB and next in line to be tried like that no doubt will be POM.

SJ & NR are probably as close as we have in Ireland to natural 7's, but neither is International standard. Although Jennings have never been given a fair and consistent run at it.
A match here and there over a 2 year period is no good.

A few years back we JOC & KG on the scene. We didnt know how lucky we were!

(anyone else think we should look at the possibility of Fez to 4, SOB to 6 thus opening the 7 position again?)

Just on the BR - how about not picking two 6's. Make a choice - SOB or Fez. Moving Fez into 4 would be madness.

[cornerboy]

Hook line & sinker

[Aussiedub]

Pick enough good ball carriers in the front 5 so we don't have to fill the backrow with 3 ball carriers....

[Jackdaniels]

Wally is a word class rugby player
but he is not a world class 7

[lactose intolerant]

Pick enough good ball carriers in the front 5 so we don't have to fill the backrow with 3 ball carriers....

Cronin & Ryan?

[taz]

Hook line & sinker

Amen

[NotreDameRFC]

David Wallace: Nothing more to prove.
Peter O'Mahony: He will be the best Irish back row since David Wallace by the end of this year's Six Nations.

so RB you think in 3 matches v Italy Scotland and a poor England ... none of which he is guaranteed to start ... he will surpass Stephen Ferris and Sean o Brien and all.they have done?

Just trying to.get you on the record on this :-)

[lactose intolerant]

Wally is a word class rugby player
but he is not a world class 7

What you're talking about is a groundhog, not a No. 7!!

We haven't had an international standard groundhog in yonks, so why waste the No. 7 jersey on a substandard one?

What we have had in Horan, Best, POC, BOD & D'Arce are some of the best 'fetchers' in their particular positions in World Rugby!! Heaslip, Quinny, Wally have all been pretty handy at it too!! More than enough to make up for the lack of the specialist!!

Watch the Grand Slam game in 09 and tell me we missed out by not having a specialist groundhog 7

[The Word Is Born]

We didn't 'produce' Gleeson.

[Jackdaniels]

ya it prob is too late now to switch Fez to 4 for Ireland, shame though. In the SH he would more than likely have become a 4 a long time ago, they see and try things the conservative cousins up north never do.
Well, not the Irish ones anyways

[bigron]

Cronin & Ryan?

Find a ball carrying centre would be more in our interest. Less chance of them being turned over if they can keep their feet a bit longer. We could have more of our backrow focused on the breakdown if they weren't lingering in midfield trying to punch holes our backs cant.

[Jackdaniels]

Find a ball carrying centre would be more in our interest. Less chance of them being turned over if they can keep their feet a bit longer. We could have more of our backrow focused on the breakdown if they weren't lingering in midfield trying to punch holes our backs cant.

Good point that

[lactose intolerant]

Pick enough good ball carriers in the front 5 so we don't have to fill the backrow with 3 ball carriers....

Oh hang on, I see what you're getting at now!!

Never thought I'd see the day where Aussiedub leads the "Mushy for Ireland" brigade on Munsterfans!! Good on ya

[Cowboy]

Oh hang on, I see what you're getting at now!!

Never thought I'd see the day where Aussiedub leads the "Mushy for Ireland" brigade on Munsterfans!! Good on ya

He's right though. Splitting the pack into a tight five for clearing and piano moving and a back row for running is lunacy. Donn Ryan could add a hell of a lot to our carrying load and also allow the back row a bit more room to manoeuvre. Plus his blood is pure nitro glycerine. We're very imbalanced at the minute

[John Cooper Clarke]

We didn't 'produce' Gleeson.

Yep, and yet another J.D. thread falls flat because of that.

[lactose intolerant]

He's right though. Splitting the pack into a tight five for clearing and piano moving and a back row for running is lunacy. Donn Ryan could add a hell of a lot to our carrying load and also allow the back row a bit more room to manoeuvre. Plus his blood is pure nitro glycerine. We're very imbalanced at the minute

He does a quality gurn too so he does

[RichardP]

Pick enough good ball carriers in the front 5 so we don't have to fill the backrow with 3 ball carriers....

And your suggestions for the front 5 would then be...?

[the plastic paddy]

What you're talking about is a groundhog, not a No. 7!!

We haven't had an international standard groundhog in yonks, so why waste the No. 7 jersey on a substandard one?

What we have had in Horan, Best, POC, BOD & D'Arce are some of the best 'fetchers' in their particular positions in World Rugby!! Heaslip, Quinny, Wally have all been pretty handy at it too!! More than enough to make up for the lack of the specialist!!

Watch the Grand Slam game in 09 and tell me we missed out by not having a specialist groundhog 7

If being this mythical creature the 'groundhog' is one of the criterea then you could say McCaw is "not a world class 7" either. SOB, Fez and Heaslip have now played 4 games together and they have already been written off. Think they have to have until the end of the 6 nations, fitness permitting, before we call up JOC to take on NZ!?!

[RichardP]

ya it prob is too late now to switch Fez to 4 for Ireland, shame though. In the SH he would more than likely have become a 4 a long time ago, they see and try things the conservative cousins up north never do.
Well, not the Irish ones anyways

It isn't as though we are suffering for second rows at present and his talents did appear to lend themselves well to #6 - they still do. Likewise changing players between 2nd and backrows is hardly a novel, innovative invention from the SH; it has been happening as long as I can remember - Kevin McLoughlin, DOC, MOD and DR have all done it in more recent times at provincial level. As far back as the 60's there are several examples at the international level.

[Dowlinz]

And your suggestions for the front 5 would then be...?

Guessing aussiedub would go with 1) Healy 2) Cronin 3) Ross 4) Toner 5) Cullen

Could be wrong though, he might squeeze McLaughlin or Strauss in there either.

[John Cooper Clarke]

Guessing aussiedub would go with 1) Healy 2) Cronin 3) Ross 4) Toner 5) Cullen

You just don't get it Dowlinz do you?

p.s. He'll also name a 2nd tight 5, and point out how J.S. is actively rotating them around.

[Daithi]

Wally was & will be again hopefully when he returns a world class 7. He was a deserving test starting Lion, etc,etc,etc,etc end of.

The Dublin media hit on this we need an out & out fetcher at 7, forgetting as many other posters point out here that fetching is in fact in every players job description particularly those in positions 1-8 and 12&13.

I actually think that backrow is an area of relative strength in the Irish side. SOB, Heaslip & Fez just 6 months ago had the NZlanders frothing at the gash, and now PO'M is emerging, with Wally back from injury. They're all good players.

Now if they could sort our midfield and the consistency of our 10 at intl level we might be talking about something that makes a difference to test match outcomes.

[John Cooper Clarke]

Apart from being an overused expression, what exactly is a "balanced back row".

I thought I knew, but perhaps I really don't?

[No. 16]

It means not one outshines the others too much. Like they're all OK so the whole is greater than the sum of the parts sorta deal. You go throwing and international standard in like gleeson and the whole thing topples over. There's no continuity when the rest of the backrow are teetering on the brink. It's just not balanced.

[Daithi]

Apart from being an overused expression, what exactly is a "balanced back row".

I thought I knew, but perhaps I really don't?

Don't beat yourself up John, most pundits who (over)use the phrase don't have the foggiest what it means either!!

What it's hinting at is players having complementary physical characteristics and skillsets that will forge together to make the best backrow unit, so classically this would have been a relatively fast, fetching, low to the ground 7 (which I'd like to think I was myself), a ball carrying, lineout jumping, strong striding 8, (think Heaslip) and a big, bouncing, robust, streetwise & half psycho 6 (think Ferris).This was the classic 'balanced' backrow.

My issue with this is that the modern game has way more dedicated fetching and groundwork by all other players, especially the 7 other forwards & the centres. Also nearly all modern day forwards are more mobile & athletic, this means that the era of the classic 7 is all but past. Most modern sides opt for a 6 & 1/2 style player such as Wallace, Dusatoir, Berger or even McCaw. None of those are classic 7s but they can carry, tackle, hit, fetch & even form lineout options in about equal measure, which is actually what a modern day 7 needs to do.

Hope this reduces the confusion a bit...

[redherring]

McCaw, Pocock, Brussow etc. these guys aren't just good a pinching ball. They read the game extremely well and work bloody hard hence why they are at more than 80 - 90% of opposition brekdowns turning over the ball. That's what makes them good at being an openside/groundhog/specialist 7 or whatever you call it.