Super 15 2012

[Old Dog]

They've a pack to match anyone physically, but I'm not sure they've a pack to match the nous and creativity of the Kiwi survivors. Crusaders happily negated the Bulls power (although I felt the Bulls were massively off the pace) by simply being more clinical and better drilled than the Bok side. They kept devouring the Bulls going into contact standing up and winning the put in.

That Crusaders performance was textbook rugby - perfect body angles, savage counter rucking and wonderful handling/counter attacking. Carter's gap creation for Guildford's try was pure class.

They outclassed the Blues (whose sterile, one-dimensional tactics (or lack of tactics) played right into their hands) from 1 to 15 - only Hougaard even came close to matching his opposite number.

[Cowboy]

That Crusaders performance was textbook rugby - perfect body angles, savage counter rucking and wonderful handling/counter attacking. Carter's gap creation for Guildford's try was pure class.

They outclassed the Blues (whose sterile, one-dimensional tactics (or lack of tactics) played right into their hands) from 1 to 15 - only Hougaard even came close to matching his opposite number.

He was pissed when he got moved out. But I agree on the precision of the Crusaders, it was superb, they ahd the Blues figured out in 10 minutes, and then it was death by position. Everytime they got down the field they got scores on the board.

[deadlyBuzz]

huh.
I was actally watching the match last night. First time in a long time watching a S15 match (Sky sports ain't worth the cost) and outside of the positioning, how quick the Crusaders were up in support as well as the space made for guilfords try, I saw nothing special. Definitely saw nothing of the Super forwards the bulls had. Plenty fo Glimpses but I saw nothing that highlighted the "Gulf in Class" between NH adn SH Rugby.
Consider this match with Leinster V Clermont during the year and if anything the Leinster match was better!
Now I know I should consider a larger sample of matches but that's what i took from it!

[Old Dog]

huh.
I was actally watching the match last night. First time in a long time watching a S15 match (Sky sports ain't worth the cost) and outside of the positioning, how quick the Crusaders were up in support as well as the space made for guilfords try, I saw nothing special. Definitely saw nothing of the Super forwards the bulls had. Plenty fo Glimpses but I saw nothing that highlighted the "Gulf in Class" between NH adn SH Rugby.
Consider this match with Leinster V Clermont during the year and if anything the Leinster match was better!
Now I know I should consider a larger sample of matches but that's what i took from it!

Maybe you could factor this match into your SH V NH comparisons.

[Cowboy]

huh.
I was actally watching the match last night. First time in a long time watching a S15 match (Sky sports ain't worth the cost) and outside of the positioning, how quick the Crusaders were up in support as well as the space made for guilfords try, I saw nothing special. Definitely saw nothing of the Super forwards the bulls had. Plenty fo Glimpses but I saw nothing that highlighted the "Gulf in Class" between NH adn SH Rugby.
Consider this match with Leinster V Clermont during the year and if anything the Leinster match was better!
Now I know I should consider a larger sample of matches but that's what i took from it!

Leinster Clermont was a semi final. The crusaders game was for all intents and purposes a quarter final, after the next crusaders game I think the comparison might be closer. They didn't turn on the style and that's for certain but their execution was second to none, I'd give my right arm to see them play Leinster.

[The Outlaw]

Leinster Clermont was a semi final. The crusaders game was for all intents and purposes a quarter final, after the next crusaders game I think the comparison might be closer. They didn't turn on the style and that's for certain but their execution was second to none, I'd give my right arm to see them play Leinster.

wouldnt be advisable in my view. they have 3 players who are head and shoulders above anyone else in the world. And possibly the best 8 ever to play the game. And he's not even playing at the moment.

[i_like_cake]

Ahh now, come on....

[Bromance]

Would love to see winners of the HC vs winners of the S15, for arguments sake, Leinster vs Crusaders in a Neutral Venue, who do you reckon would win, i know my money would go with the Crusaders and there 10 ABs! I don't think you an honestly compare the northern and southern Hemisphere through club rugby, if you look at the competitions, the format and competitiveness of them it shows the difference in standard. Leinster did win a HC only playing 1 real testing fixture against Clermont in the semi's (wouldn't count the group games or quarter against Cardiff as a test or the final for that matter) while the crusaders play the likes of the Chiefs, sharks hurricanes et al. Thats why the SH is better than the NH, Competition improves players

[The Outlaw]

Ahh now, come on....

Wont find any Aironi's in the Super 15

[garryowen2323]

Michalak is going to be on huuuuuge money when he returns to Europe, watched him a few weeks in a row now and he has definitely upped the physicality massively. That Sharks team seems to have all the components of a great South African side, Huge set piece (the Du Plessis boys are worth their weight in gold) and a gigantic back five in the pack. Freddie pulls the strings and Pietersen runs in the tries.

They've a pack to match anyone physically, but I'm not sure they've a pack to match the nous and creativity of the Kiwi survivors. Crusaders happily negated the Bulls power (although I felt the Bulls were massively off the pace) by simply being more clinical and better drilled than the Bok side. They kept devouring the Bulls going into contact standing up and winning the put in.


Special mention to Wyatt Crockett, he's damn ugly, but he goes about his business and pwned the Bulls TH, Kruger.

They have to worry about negating the Stormers before they get to worry about the Kiwis. Having 4 flankers on the pitch helped them big time against the Reds and they beat them up in the pack. Why anyone would move Genia to outhalf is beyond me too.

It's almost an impossible task for the Sharks to win the whole thing. Flight to Queensland, beat the Reds, fly back to SA and play the Stormers and if they win that they have to fly to either Christchurch or Hamilton.

[garryowen2323]

wouldnt be advisable in my view. they have 3 players who are head and shoulders above anyone else in the world. And possibly the best 8 ever to play the game. And he's not even playing at the moment.

I presume the 3 you mention are Carter, McCaw and Read??

Carter and Read I agree on. I would not say McCaw is head and shoulders above Pocock right now.

And Read is most certainly not the best number 8 to have ever played the game. He's not even the best Kiwi number 8 to have ever played the game.

[The Outlaw]

I presume the 3 you mention are Carter, McCaw and Read??

Carter and Read I agree on. I would not say McCaw is head and shoulders above Pocock right now.

And Read is most certainly not the best number 8 to have ever played the game. He's not even the best Kiwi number 8 to have ever played the game.

Read is by far the best 8 I've seen. He is so good its not funny.
And all 3 are miles better then Leinster have to offer which is what we are talking about if you read back a page.
Throw in Israel Dagg, Fruean etc . Its a formidable line-up and one Leinster would do well to get within 15 of.
I think Leinster would struggle to beat the Chiefs as well.

As regards the other provinces-they shouldnt be allowed play either the Chiefs or the Crusaders on humanitarian grounds. I doubt any of them would get within 30-40 points.

[garryowen2323]

Read is by far the best 8 I've seen. He is so good its not funny.
And all 3 are miles better then Leinster have to offer which is what we are talking about if you read back a page.
Throw in Israel Dagg, Fruean etc . Its a formidable line-up and one Leinster would do well to get within 15 of.
I think Leinster would struggle to beat the Chiefs as well.

As regards the other provinces-they shouldnt be allowed play either the Chiefs or the Crusaders on humanitarian grounds. I doubt any of them would get within 30-40 points.

Apologies I didn't realise that "anyone else in the world" automatically meant Leinster!

Interesting you mention Fruean actually. I think he's one of the most over rated players in Super Rugby right now. Grand with ball in hand but I think his defensive positioning is borderline awful.

As for Kieran Read...........I personally would rate Zinzan Brooke as a better number 8. No doubting Read has the potential to be better but has about half the international experience Zinzan accumulated and is racking up injuries at a worrying rate

[stickman_sa]

Cant wait for the new scrum laws to be implemented. Listening to Craig Joubert repeat Crowsh Thouch Paaaaaws is doing my head in.

As a Saffer, I'll be the first to say that our's is among the worst accents in the English-speaking world (possibly beyond). Doesn't help matters that Joubert is an especially egregious case.

[stickman_sa]

It's almost an impossible task for the Sharks to win the whole thing. Flight to Queensland, beat the Reds, fly back to SA and play the Stormers and if they win that they have to fly to either Christchurch or Hamilton.

Yep. Someone said it earlier in this thread, but it's hard to overstate the impact that travel distances have in Super Rugby. If the Sharks do end up winning in Cape Town (an achievement in of itself), then they'd have to traverse the Indian Ocean for the FOURTH time in as many weeks for the final. They've hit a great vein of form, but I don't think it's humanly possible for any team to win a tournament facing those odds.

On the subject though, how good is Marcel Cotzee? He's the closest thing that SA have produced to McCaw (in terms of his style of play) that I can think of. Not as prolific in turnovers as a Pocock or Brussouw, but adds so much in terms of linking play. Always seems to make ground and never dies with the ball.

[Thomond78]

As a Saffer, I'll be the first to say that our's is among the worst accents in the English-speaking world (possibly beyond). Doesn't help matters that Joubert is an especially egregious case.

Which SA accent? I mean, there's a world of a difference between Seeeehntuhn, plattelander, and full-on nnnaaaaiiiii-djoumase-CY-plates Capie. And for the record, all of those are preferable to some of the nightmarish ones on this island.

[Cowboy]

Yep. Someone said it earlier in this thread, but it's hard to overstate the impact that travel distances have in Super Rugby. If the Sharks do end up winning in Cape Town (an achievement in of itself), then they'd have to traverse the Indian Ocean for the FOURTH time in as many weeks for the final. They've hit a great vein of form, but I don't think it's humanly possible for any team to win a tournament facing those odds.

On the subject though, how good is Marcel Cotzee? He's the closest thing that SA have produced to McCaw (in terms of his style of play) that I can think of. Not as prolific in turnovers as a Pocock or Brussouw, but adds so much in terms of linking play. Always seems to make ground and never dies with the ball.

The conveyor belt of world class back rowers in SA continues, fingers crossed we bagged ourselves a gem for the next two years

[stickman_sa]

Which SA accent? I mean, there's a world of a difference between Seeeehntuhn, plattelander, and full-on nnnaaaaiiiii-djoumase-CY-plates Capie. And for the record, all of those are preferable to some of the nightmarish ones on this island.

Hahaha... Once again, Thomond78, you've shown me that you know your stuff. (On that note, are you an "export" or did you just live there for a while?)

I'm originally from the Cape myself, so hopefully fairly neutral on the ears (as far as these things go). That said, I certainly wouldn't object to a nice brogue... although, to be fair, I've also heard Irish accents that resembled some of the characters from Guy Ritchie's "Snatch".

[Thomond78]

Hahaha... Once again, Thomond78, you've shown me that you know your stuff. (On that note, are you an "export" or did you just live there for a while?)

I'm originally from the Cape myself, so hopefully fairly neutral on the ears (as far as these things go). That said, I certainly wouldn't object to a nice brogue... although, to be fair, I've also heard Irish accents that resembled some of the characters from Guy Ritchie's "Snatch".

Fair few friends there, dated a couple of girls from there back in the day, very fond of the Cape. As well as that, accents interest me. CL FTW, mind.

[garryowen2323]

The conveyor belt of world class back rowers in SA continues, fingers crossed we bagged ourselves a gem for the next two years

Still think they need to drop Spies from number 8 to win the Rugby championship I think. Up there with Fruean in the over rated category in my mind!

[Bromance]

Still think they need to drop Spies from number 8 to win the Rugby championship I think. Up there with Fruean in the over rated category in my mind!

There is a report that claims Spies is the BEST no.8 in super rugby history, its not my opinion, have posted the link below. My personal opinion on Spies is that he's a game changer, brings an X-factor to games but when targeted can crumble and go hiding. Still think he's far from overrated, i do feel he's the right person at 8 for SA, with Coetzee and either Alberts/Brussouw/Daniel on the other flank. Not many teams would have to consider selected Brussouw would just be a given but the coming of Coetzee seems to be his downfall. I don't think Kankowski as an 8 would be good enough, Johnson at the Cheetahs (Soon Wasps)? NO, Vermuelan at stormers, not dynamic enough, leaves the possibility of Josh Strauss and Derrick Minnie for the backrow, 2 of the best and most consistent performers inSR just a shame there with the Lions, think these 22 are worthy of further recognition

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1...-rugby-history

[garryowen2323]

There is a report that claims Spies is the BEST no.8 in super rugby history, its not my opinion, have posted the link below. My personal opinion on Spies is that he's a game changer, brings an X-factor to games but when targeted can crumble and go hiding. Still think he's far from overrated, i do feel he's the right person at 8 for SA, with Coetzee and either Alberts/Brussouw/Daniel on the other flank. Not many teams would have to consider selected Brussouw would just be a given but the coming of Coetzee seems to be his downfall. I don't think Kankowski as an 8 would be good enough, Johnson at the Cheetahs (Soon Wasps)? NO, Vermuelan at stormers, not dynamic enough, leaves the possibility of Josh Strauss and Derrick Minnie for the backrow, 2 of the best and most consistent performers inSR just a shame there with the Lions, think these 22 are worthy of further recognition

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1...-rugby-history

Just my opinion! He goes missing in games too much for my liking and defence isn't too hectic. Reminds me of Tom Croft. Bags of pace and looks great when things are going his way but if you get into a scrap he can been seem hanging out on the wing a bit too much. Hairy Ordinary is another one. Great athletes but not for me!

On a side note........Australian Super Rugby awards were on last night.............
Player of the Year - Will Genia (finished on 18 points with Lealiifano, Pocock and Higginbotham on 17 points)
Team of the Year - Reds
Coach of the Year - Ewan McKenzie
Referee of the Year - Steve Walsh
Rookie fo the Year - Joe Tomane

[Old Dog]

Might be worth flagging the fact that the first Super XV semi final [Chiefs V Crusaders] kicks off tomorrow (Friday) morning - live on Sky Sports 4 from 08.00 hours.

The second semi [Stormers V Sharks] isn't until 15.30 on Saturday, Sky Sports 3. Sadly, it clashes with two live cricket games on SS 1 and 4, but it'll probably be raining.

[Cowboy]

Might be worth flagging the fact that the first Super XV semi final [Chiefs V Crusaders] kicks off tomorrow (Friday) morning - live on Sky Sports 4 from 08.00 hours.

The second semi [Stormers V Sharks] isn't until 15.30 on Saturday, Sky Sports 3. Sadly, it clashes with two live cricket games on SS 1 and 4, but it'll probably be raining.

Thanks OD! I'd have missed it tomorrow

[The Outlaw]

There is a report that claims Spies is the BEST no.8 in super rugby history, its not my opinion, have posted the link below. My personal opinion on Spies is that he's a game changer, brings an X-factor to games but when targeted can crumble and go hiding. Still think he's far from overrated, i do feel he's the right person at 8 for SA, with Coetzee and either Alberts/Brussouw/Daniel on the other flank. Not many teams would have to consider selected Brussouw would just be a given but the coming of Coetzee seems to be his downfall. I don't think Kankowski as an 8 would be good enough, Johnson at the Cheetahs (Soon Wasps)? NO, Vermuelan at stormers, not dynamic enough, leaves the possibility of Josh Strauss and Derrick Minnie for the backrow, 2 of the best and most consistent performers inSR just a shame there with the Lions, think these 22 are worthy of further recognition

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1...-rugby-history

Best number 8 begins and ends with Ciaran Read

[garryowen2323]

Best number 8 begins and ends with Ciaran Read

Is that Kieran Reid's Irish cousin??

[Cowboy]

Is that Kieran Reid's Irish cousin??

Corner forward for Crusheen?

[Thomond78]

Is that Kieran Reid's Irish cousin??

Shuddup you before you blow Operation Rebadge wide open!

[Cowboy]

Shuddup you before you blow Operation Rebadge wide open!

Predator Ryan rearranged his face a few years ago, sure sign he admires him. Unkey bob will entice him up here

[Thomond78]

Predator Ryan rearranged his face a few years ago, sure sign he admires him. Unkey bob will entice him up here

Shudduuuuuuup! Hell, all that blabbing, what kind of a Stonecu... But I've said too much.