Ireland's lack of a true number 7

[jasper]

In the aftermath of the world cup I've read and heard a lot of comments that Ireland doesn't have a true #7, something which cost us dearly. My questions is, what would a true #7 do that someone like O'Brien (or even Wallace) did/would not do?

[Cadroc]

Just watch Pocock or Warburton or even McCaw. If you saw the match yesterday Warburton was incredible in his groundhog role, and Pocock also today. (regardless of refereeing, but it certainly helped him)

[Daithi]

I was thinking about this after Lawrence dallaglio pointed out that the 4 semi finalists are the teams with recognised specialised open sides ( now I know they have many other strengths but his point has merit nonetheless i.e. a specialist openside has a big impact on results). I think this is the case because the current laws encourage teams to retain possession and keep ball in hand, therefore teams are doing more running, rucking and retaining and furthermore they normally score off turnover ball far more easily. In that type of game a groundhog type of openside should make a far greater impact than say he would have in 2007 |RWC when the laws favoured kicking the ball to the opposition in their territory and using a press defence to keep them there.

[Evil Omer]

I don't really agree with this for a couple of reasons.

Firstly we were playing a different game at the breakdown, i.e. keep the player on his feet and turnover possession that way so a "groundhog" wasn't part of that.

Secondly we took a genuine groundhog, the best in Ireland at the moment and he was too poor to get a place.

Thirdly our side have learnt to cover for the perceived lack of a turnover player by most of our team being good at this. Watch every tackle where the player went to ground, nearest Irish player was straight on him. Best, BOD and d'Arcy are good at this, SOB, POC, Ferris and Heaslip are no slouches either. We have half a side who can latch onto the ball at the tackle and in theory we don't have to wait/hope that our 7 is the first man there. In fact I'd argue as a team we have as many as if not more poachers than any other side in the world. Think about this, not just about an OS but across the team and even watch that game again, those players were all straight onto the ball when the tackle went to ground. Wales were just better at protecting their ball.

Lastly whether or not we have one doesn't change the damage the opposition do to our ball with one. The issue was we had poor protection of our own ruck ball not turnover on Wales ball. This first came up against US and came back against Wales, too often our SH was having to do the pack's job for them and protect our ball. We were too slow to guard and recycle. I would also point out we had more than enough possession to have beaten Wales, we just didn't have a clue how to use it.

[Talking Sense]

Maybe our lack of a 7 is why we were employing the keep player on their feet policy EO.

Warburton, McCaw, Brussow and Pocock are all key men for their teams. Look at England who also lack a groundhog, cost them. We need to pick a couple of young BRs and turn them into fetchers asap. I think Dom Ryan and POM are the best options we have.

Aus have another young 7 coming through, Liam Gill, absolutely phenomenal at fetching, watch out for him.

[Evil Omer]

I could equally argue that the reliance on a groundhog is such that when he's not there the team level drops drastically - exhibit A Australia v us. I think it's something people get hung up on because it sounds like a technical argument when actually it's not it's a job that you should expect your team to be doing. It's great if you have a really good one, like McCaw or whoever but if you don't then you only suffer if you don't expect your team to learn to do the role. Ireland have done that and we've not suffered, we have a set of players including a 6'6 lock whose first instinct is to get over the man and onto that ball and they home in on it. Rory Best is as good as any of the back rows you'll find around Ireland at it. Again I don't think this made any difference to our performance because whether or not we had one didn't impact on Warburton's performance or the fact we failed to secure quick ball. Or, more importantly, the fact that we were unbelievably predictable when we did get the ball back. Neither of those last 2 things are changed by this mythical groundhog.

[Benji]

Warburton was good the other day but that was in no way the reason we lost that match. Wales met us in the collisions and hit us hard we didnt meet fire with fire. Par Bod's first minute tackle there were noi great hits after.

That Ass hole Hook said it was a lack of a seven. His full of S&&&e. Three trys to one. He was just coming out with the seven bit because it was all he had rehearsed.
I played 7 myself and always find myself watching them. Poccock put in a great display against the boks and made a difference in that game. But as for our game, When after around 30 minutes Charteris had 16 tackles that showed how up for it they were. Their backrow tackled like demons. Rog dancing around in the ten channel and players taking slow ball standing still made it easy for them .

Yes Ireland need a groundhog seven but its only part of the solution.

[Balla Boy]

Ireland have ignored the "ground hog" for a while, and quite rightly. Aside from the fact that they've come into fashion a bit in this tournament having been on the retreat for a while, the fact is that we've had a world class openside playing at 13 for the last ten years.

Any Pocock style 7 would just have found himself queueing behind BOD (and Darce, who wins his fair share) for midfield runners to plunder.

If it was a real problem, Ireland would win fewer turnovers than other teams. And that hasn't been the case.

[Aussiedub]

Ireland have ignored the "ground hog" for a while, and quite rightly. Aside from the fact that they've come into fashion a bit in this tournament having been on the retreat for a while, the fact is that we've had a world class openside playing at 13 for the last ten years.

Any Pocock style 7 would just have found himself queueing behind BOD (and Darce, who wins his fair share) for midfield runners to plunder.

If it was a real problem, Ireland would win fewer turnovers than other teams. And that hasn't been the case.

Maybe if this mythical 7 was winning the turnovers then the likes of BOD/Darcy would be freer to do the attacking and being in the defensive line instead of stuck in rucks?

[Dowlinz]

Don't the stats show we turned over more welsh ball at rucks than vice versa? The importance of a 7 seems to be getting overrated at the time being, like the role of a dynamic 8 was a couple of years ago.
We played a "proper" number 7 in 2 games in the past few weeks in Jennings and he was remarkably poor. Its hard to see how it'd significantly benefit our gameplan when we're already good at slowing and turning over ball at the breakdown.

In fact its a bit infuriating to see issues like this credited as the reason behind our exit. We were very strong at winning and indeed retaining possession, our retention was good, our territory was good, our possession was good, all our set pieces were good. What wasn't good was our back play, our lines of running, too much static carrying, not enough line breaks and no real pace from anyone when they came. We thrive in broken play and didn't have the invention, running lines or speed of delivery to force those situations at all, this is the problem and I'd hope a new backs coach will solve it.

[HNIC]

Personally I agree with EO on this.. In hindsight and after watching the game back my opinion on this matter has come around to what most of you guys are saying. I believe a specialised 7 is only worth carrying if he is as good as pocok or in that mould otherwise you are leaving out Ferris or O'Brien (If heaslip is to make the team) and I dont think we have enough power in the backs to break the gainline without the two above guys which to me is more important. If say we were to play Jennings at 7 and Ferris or O'Brien at 6 then we would have only one real offloading ball carrier and until a 7 in the mould of mccaw or pocock come along then we shouldnt persist with a poor mans version either. Agree again with whoever said that we make up for this with very astute poachers in various parts of the field. The problem in this area v wales was they brought the famous manic aggression into contact, we left ours in the dressing room. Our clear outs were sluggish, hard up tackles non existent and sluggish, kick chasers non existent.

And As somone has stated, we had more than enough ball to win that game, granted some of it was slow ball but what is most worrying was we spent 22 minutes in their 22 and scored just one try. That beggers belief with the supposed talent we have in our ranks. personally our back play and general attack play is one dimensional at best. Our centres are couldnt or wouldnt make any inroads, our wingers stayed on their wings and we have zero running threat from ten. our only real cutting move was when reddan offloaded to obrien in the second half and we was mowed down short of the line. We shouldnt get completely hung up on attacking play but outside the genuine lack of border line lunatic aggression and attitude which irish teams have to bring to every game, it was the fundamental reason why we lost. Too many fellas trying to do individual things as opposed to the collective attacking as a force up unit.

[Balla Boy]

Maybe if this mythical 7 was winning the turnovers then the likes of BOD/Darcy would be freer to do the attacking and being in the defensive line instead of stuck in rucks?

So what you're saying is that if they weren't defending they'd be free to defend? The best man to win a turnover is the man who makes the tackle. BOD has done that brilliantly for years, and usually negated the need for someone to hare across the pitch to do it for him.

Doing the attacking is generally considered to be tricky when the opposition have the ball.

No one was pissing and whining about the lack of a ground hog when we beat Oz, but now we're all agreed that it was the key issue in our loss here. Tune in same time next week to find out what everyone has suddenly decided to think in the next episode of "tiresome memes picked up from crappy TV analysts".

[Dumptruck]

A load of ******** on this thread.

[Aussiedub]

So what you're saying is that if they weren't defending they'd be free to defend? The best man to win a turnover is the man who makes the tackle. BOD has done that brilliantly for years, and usually negated the need for someone to hare across the pitch to do it for him.

Doing the attacking is generally considered to be tricky when the opposition have the ball.

No one was pissing and whining about the lack of a ground hog when we beat Oz, but now we're all agreed that it was the key issue in our loss here. Tune in same time next week to find out what everyone has suddenly decided to think in the next episode of "tiresome memes picked up from crappy TV analysts".

If you watch Pocock/Brussow/McCaw/Warburton etc they usually don't make the initial tackle but win most turnovers by being the 2nd man into the tackle, they actually tend to slide across and work towards being close to the tackle at all times and then decide when to go in...

When we played Australia they had a poor scrum and had Ben McCallmun at No7 in a wet/windy game. McCallum would be at least the 6th/7th option at 7 in Australia and wouldn't be even close to making even the Leinster 22. You saw the difference that Pocock made yesterday.

I know it's just a coincedence that Australia/NZ constantly churn out No7's and tend to be the best teams with the best running rugby and Wales also churn out 7's who also play great running rugby while SA's best performances over the last few years have been with Brussow a traditional 7 playing with for them or when Leinster play with Jennings at 7 they perform far better than when SOB plays at 7?

[Daithi]

Balla,

You're on fire today, fair play!

[Balla Boy]

Aussiedub,

You've missed the point, or I haven't been clear. O'Driscoll regains his feet quickly, and is usually the "second man" to his own tackles. He's also (usually) the second man to Darcy's tackles.

No one is arguing that a team doesn't need someone in the midfield turning over isolated runners. I'm just suggesting that Ireland have been able to function without a Pocock style 7 because they have someone else doing that job in the midfield - as well as Wallace/SOB coming across.

O'Driscoll has been doing it for years, and it hasn't impacted on his availability for attacking ball at all.

With him on the fade, there's no question that the back row will have to work harder to supplement his absence, because there's no other midfield player available to us who gets through that much work.

But it doesn't have to be a specialist 7 - particularly when you simply don't have one available to you who is anywhere near the level required.

Or is there some young Pocock down in Clonakilty that we're overlooking?

[DONC]

Aussiedub,

You've missed the point, or I haven't been clear. O'Driscoll regains his feet quickly, and is usually the "second man" to his own tackles. He's also (usually) the second man to Darcy's tackles.

No one is arguing that a team doesn't need someone in the midfield turning over isolated runners. I'm just suggesting that Ireland have been able to function without a Pocock style 7 because they have someone else doing that job in the midfield - as well as Wallace/SOB coming across.

O'Driscoll has been doing it for years, and it hasn't impacted on his availability for attacking ball at all.

With him on the fade, there's no question that the back row will have to work harder to supplement his absence, because there's no other midfield player available to us who gets through that much work.

But it doesn't have to be a specialist 7 - particularly when you simply don't have one available to you who is anywhere near the level required.

Or is there some young Pocock down in Clonakilty that we're overlooking?

Where is Nuke when you need him???

[Balla Boy]

Balla,

You're on fire today, fair play!

Frenzied lunch time burst. Won't be back until I'm bemoaning the state of our league play at the weekend.
Leaving everything on the park

[slipper1]

8 - O'Brien, 7 - Wallace, 6 - Ferris is our best backrow, it's a pity injury denied us of it at this WC.

[slipper1]

Pocock is the benchmarck for 7's in world rugby, watch him do a number on McCaw on Sunday. I think our own Peter O'Mahoney has potiential if pushed in that direction and he bulks up, long ways to go though.

[lawrence]

I would be more worried about our lack of a 12, a 13 and a 15 than our percieved lack of a "7".

[Benji]

Pocock pound for pound is the strongest man in world rugby. Unreal strength and he takes some hammering. His been the best 7 in the world for over a year. McCaw has the ref on his side thats worth three free infringements a game.

[slipper1]

I would be more worried about our lack of a 12, a 13 and a 15 than our percieved lack of a "7".

If you watched SA v Aus, it's hard to agree, he turned over ball on the line when SA looked odds on to score and that's worth a try.

On 15, I think Jones is the future. 12 and 13 are a problem.

[ustix]

Anyone else see Strauss as having potential as suggested elsewhere

[slipper1]

Pocock pound for pound is the strongest man in world rugby. Unreal strength and he takes some hammering. His been the best 7 in the world for over a year. McCaw has the ref on his side thats worth three free infringements a game.

He is the best player in rugby imo. He does the work of 2 or 3 players and keeps his cool. Reds v Western Force semi-final Super15 was one of the best performances I've seen by a player, he was the captain and rode by Bryce Lawrence but still almost won it on his own.

[Cowboy]

Pocock pound for pound is the strongest man in world rugby. Unreal strength and he takes some hammering. His been the best 7 in the world for over a year. McCaw has the ref on his side thats worth three free infringements a game.

Definitely. He's built like a rock and has short little legs. Rooted to the ground, people just bounce off him. Head wedged into his shoulders so the neck doesnt take much of a battering. He has all the techinque of Richie allied to the fact he's a physical rhino. Plus he seems to be as granite mentally as the toughest of the tough. Not a backward step, i dont think i've ever seen him blown out of a ruck or hammered in a tackle. Still wonder what the scoreline would have been had he played us. The Tank and Ferris wouldnt have had such an armchair ride.

[Mcork]

Can I add my name to those not convinced our lack of an out & out 7 was a cause of us going out of the RWC. I thought our flankers were our best players throughout and even against Wales they were still amoung our best players on the day. You could also say that no team in the last 4 is carrying their N°12 like we were or had a total lack of attacking variation like us. There are a few reasons why we are not in the semis, our N°7 is not actually one of them.

As for all of the teams in the semis have out & out sevens while those knocked out didn't? Erm... I'm not sure Dustatoir or Bonnaire are O&O 7's tbh. Pocock had an outstanding game but SA should still have won that. In fact I think the teams in the semis are those who have been far far more clinical in taking their chances with the possesion they've had. Both Irl and SA dominated possesion & territory but were very 1 dimensional in attack which allowed their opponents to defend & defend their way to victory. Both were very opportunistic in taking their scores. Even then SA can feel hard done by with some of the reffing decisions.

There is no point trying to turn anyone into a 7. Some players are instinctive 7's like Jennings, Ronan & Faloon (none of the 3 of them are good enough to make a full strenght Irish side). As many have said B O'Driscoll has for years been our best N°7 Our work at the breakdown is a collective thing and a hooker, prop or centre can also play that role. There are plenty of areas where the team needs players to come through (nowhere more than centre) but backrow is defintely nott one of them. Dom. Ryan, P O'Mahoney, Ruddock are all outstanding prospects and it'll be hard to ensure they get enough gametime to develop.