If Ireland is Sideshow Bob, are Italy and Russia the rakes in the grass?

[mr chips]

Having just unbuckled ourselves from underneath the car against Oz, we can finally get on with implementing our grand plan ... d'oh!



(One should never pass up the opportunity to use the Simpsons as a metaphor. )

I see from comments in a couple of other threads that some posters share my slight sense of unease with all the gushing talk of "Ireland's easier path to the final". While I am still riding the wave of optimism from the win over Oz - and indeed the manner of that win - I think there is a little bit too much focus on "who we'll probably face in the quarter final". Time to cool the jets a little, boys and girls. It's not that I'm looking to play Cassandra here, but the notion that the Russian game is a formality could come back to bite us. Yes, I do expect us to win, but few hard-hitting crunch tackles on key players (a la Tuilagi on Wally) and our prospects of progressing in the tournament would be severely dented. Then even if we do make it through the Russian game unscathed, the real obstacle is yet to come. Italy of course pose a far bigger threat, particularly considering (a) the narrowness of our victory over them at this year's 6N, (b) not just the scoreline in that game, but the nature of both their and our performances, and (c) the fact that they managed to beat France, something we've failed to do three times to date just this year. Mallet has openly stated that they are gunning for us, and we should expect and prepare for them to put it up to us just as ferociously as we put it up to the Wallabies.

I'm not taking away from anything we did at the weekend or trying to pour cold water on our ambitions for the tournament. But much as the Australian team, press and fans have earned some justifiable criticism for underestimating and disrespecting their opponents in advance of their pool game, we could easily find ourselves in a similar state of hubristic misery unless heads are kept level, assumptions are avoided and all opposition are taken seriously. Otherwise we just won't get to kill Bart.

[munstershane]

My son (a massive Bart fan. In fact bart is probably his role model) dislikes this thread.

I however agree. Enjoy the win but lets not get cocky.

[McCloud]

In fairness any players who have been talking have highlighted the fact that there are 2 more games to go before any can start thinking about q-finals.

[bugler]

Neither Italy or Russia will be able to beat us as both are poor enough (well, esp Russia). But a great performance against Australia doesn't wipe off the map all the bad performances of the last couple of years.

Quite why the Australia performance is the barometer of us now I don't know. If you are thinking logically you'd expect us to follow up with some more stinkers of performance, if our recent form is anything to go by.

Our bench is woefully thin on quality. The side did brilliantly against Australia, and deserve all the credit they are getting. But I'd still be concerned about facing any of England, France, Wales. A couple of more coherent performances will dispel those doubts, but I would agree that even mentioning the final is completely inappropriate at this stage.

[Mcork]

The qualities that brought us that wonderful win & performance v Oz will probably be not be any good against Italy. Italy don't expect to score tries or get their backline moving against us thus nullifying our choke defence. They'll relish the foward exchanges. We will have it no where near as easy in the scrum and indeed will need to be at our best just to keep that sector from being a serious hindrance.

What Italy will want is for us to make mistakes. Put width on the ball when it's not on, go lateral across the pitch presenting targets for impact hits and turnovers, playing general 'dumb footie' as the Aussies say. We did it during the warm-ups and if we do it again v Italy, it'll go right down to the wire and depend on a moment of inspiration or a reffing decision to decide the match. Hopefully we'll play intelligently, exectute the basics well, play for territory and kick our goals. If we do that, we'll win. We may not win by much but we will win. If we go back to the warm up's tactics then it could seriously go either way.

[ustix]

We'll win by 4

[Dowlinz]

This is a fantastic metaphor.

[Ulster's Best]

My son (a massive Bart fan. In fact bart is probably his role model) dislikes this thread.

I however agree. Enjoy the win but lets not get cocky.

You have a son?!

[The Outlaw]

The qualities that brought us that wonderful win & performance v Oz will probably be not be any good against Italy. Italy don't expect to score tries or get their backline moving against us thus nullifying our choke defence. They'll relish the foward exchanges. We will have it no where near as easy in the scrum and indeed will need to be at our best just to keep that sector from being a serious hindrance.

What Italy will want is for us to make mistakes. Put width on the ball when it's not on, go lateral across the pitch presenting targets for impact hits and turnovers, playing general 'dumb footie' as the Aussies say. We did it during the warm-ups and if we do it again v Italy, it'll go right down to the wire and depend on a moment of inspiration or a reffing decision to decide the match. Hopefully we'll play intelligently, exectute the basics well, play for territory and kick our goals. If we do that, we'll win. We may not win by much but we will win. If we go back to the warm up's tactics then it could seriously go either way.

good as saturday was we still didnt score a try. And we've always beaten italy by being able to score 3-4 tries which they cant score. Thats why if its a wet day I'd be a tad concerned. We could do with putting 60 points on Russia from a confidence perspective.

[Ulster's Best]

Neither Italy or Russia will be able to beat us as both are poor enough (well, esp Russia). But a great performance against Australia doesn't wipe off the map all the bad performances of the last couple of years.

Quite why the Australia performance is the barometer of us now I don't know. If you are thinking logically you'd expect us to follow up with some more stinkers of performance, if our recent form is anything to go by.

Our bench is woefully thin on quality. The side did brilliantly against Australia, and deserve all the credit they are getting. But I'd still be concerned about facing any of England, France, Wales. A couple of more coherent performances will dispel those doubts, but I would agree that even mentioning the final is completely inappropriate at this stage.

Yes. Good post. Re the bench, based on Saturday's side, O'Gara, Trimble and Murray are as good as Sexton, Earls and Reddan respectively. But you wouldn't want to lose Bowe or O'Driscoll. Ryan could just about fill in for O'Callaghan. Leamy is fine in himself - just not at the level of Ferris and O'Brien at the top of their game or as good a specialist No 8 as a firing Heaslip. Cronin hasn't our confidence yet but he has ability and potential - remember the famous AIL final try that started him off. Court having done ok against England and USA was very dodgy at the end against Australia. He is no Ross and no Healy either - which is partly a compliment to them but also an indictment of him. Buckley for Court or Cullen for Ryan wouldn't make much difference - it is about the best bench we can field but as you say not that great.

[fitzy73]

No one is taking for granted a path to a q/f, least of all the players and management.

Italy are a poor team, in the mould of Ireland in the late 80s to mid 90s ie can stick with you for maybe 60mins and die on their arse thereafter. As for Russia ... pfff.

It seems to me that the team have adopted a bit of "Roy Keane" attitude in that they are backing themselves and not content with making up the numbers. And why not? Arguably we've been the best and most consistent NH team in the last 5 years.

Positivity peeps, positivity!

[Cowboy]

10 man rugby now till the cows come home. The next two games should be a war won up front. Couldnt care less about width on the ball or incorporating the backline. I think even though they're struggling with fitness our starting centres and back three are inherently talented enough to finish a clean line break in a knock out match. But we need to batter teams into submission to give the backline the time to finish it off with scores.

Start this weekend by pulverising the russian pack all night long. Keep the ball tight and tire them out. Our starting pack have physicality in spades at the moment. Healy Best Paulie SOB Ferris and Heaslip (hopefully) are all monster ball carriers and incredible defenders. Increase the power in the 2nd 15.

[99_oK?]

I don't think the team are hamming it up either, but some supporters and media seem to think both games will be a stroll in the park.

Short answer is it won't be.

Italy we know all about. We got lucky with the reffing in this year's and last year's 6N. France felt the backlash and we saw in our defeats recently we are way behind France. So we are wary and aware of the threat the Azurri will pose. They saw us as an opportunity for an ambush before the WC; with the Aussies defeat they now are targetting them as well. Good luck to 'em in that, but I reckon the Azurri could well try and ambush the Ozzies (the talk is there with Mallet anyway). They are natural scrummagers and tacklers; they see Oz as a softish target. Now that would be a surprise...!

Russia is another story. One of our best players got a career-threatening injury playing them back 9 years ago. They are supposed to have come on a bit since then. I'm not sure we can afford to lose any of our key players (we have a few...), but I reckon Deccie will give a few of the squad game-time while som eof the heroes of the w-end are rested.

Anyway, I'll have a peek at both tomorrow morning.

[lactose intolerant]

I don't think the team are hamming it up either, but some supporters and media seem to think both games will be a stroll in the park.

Short answer is it won't be.

Italy we know all about. We got lucky with the reffing in this year's and last year's 6N. France felt the backlash and we saw in our defeats recently we are way behind France. So we are wary and aware of the threat the Azurri will pose. They saw us as an opportunity for an ambush before the WC; with the Aussies defeat they now are targetting them as well. Good luck to 'em in that, but I reckon the Azurri could well try and ambush the Ozzies (the talk is there with Mallet anyway). They are natural scrummagers and tacklers; they see Oz as a softish target. Now that would be a surprise...!

Russia is another story. One of our best players got a career-threatening injury playing them back 9 years ago. They are supposed to have come on a bit since then. I'm not sure we can afford to lose any of our key players (we have a few...), but I reckon Deccie will give a few of the squad game-time while som eof the heroes of the w-end are rested.

Anyway, I'll have a peek at both tomorrow morning.

are you dotin? http://www.rugbyworldcup.com/home/ma...925/index.html

[fairway hunter]

but I reckon the Azurri could well try and ambush the Ozzies (the talk is there with Mallet anyway). They are natural scrummagers and tacklers; they see Oz as a softish target. Now that would be a surprise...!


.......surprise would hardly be a word for it would be a first in the history of the RWC unless you are talking about italy declaring war on australia

[In Exile]

What worries me more than anything about all this talk of an easy path to the final is: While I expect us to account for the Russians with ease after a tough first half and a couple of hairy moments against Italy, one thing that seems to be forgotten is France, Wales and England will all have the same opinion as we do. Since Australia are now going to be in the other side of the draw every other team is going to think they have an easier path to the final. The english will assume that since they beat us a couple of weeks ago they are miles the superior team because previous loses dont count, only wins do. The French are a bogey team so they would love to face us in a semi. And the Welsh will love to hear how were going to face one of the other two in a semi.

Also, its not all roses yet. Talking to a lot of Saffer supporters here in Oz and they are all still worried about Samoa. If they play like they did against Fiji then they wont have any problems but if they stutter we could very well be facing Samoa or SA in the quarters.

And as for those bloody French? I wouldnt put it past them to beat NZ and then suddenly were in the same side of the draw with SA and NZ again!

[99_oK?]

Folks, all this talk about Quarters and Semis at this stage bothers me. Very premature.......

OK, we should easily dispose of Russia (or should we... USA got a game....), but Italy aren't afraid of us and have targetted us (like they took out France in Rome this spring).

They will be hugely up for it and see it as a cup game, lose and they are out. The only place we are superior is that we have a kicker (if he plays......). Their pack is arguably better than ours. We will have to be on guard.

[Talking Sense]

We ll beat Russia just fine, the squad members will be fresh and mad for a game.

We should beat Italy, everyone keeps saying how the italian scrum is better than the Aussies but did Aussie not scrum very well in the tri nations? Even if we just get parity at scrum time, which we are well capable of, we are better at everything else so we should put them away.

[rathbaner]

What matters is what Kidney. Paulie, BOD and ROG think. And they all think that the first target is to get out of the pool. They will cncentrate on each game as it comes, one game at a time. Kidney and ROG have been doing this since 1998/99.

[redherring]

10 man rugby now till the cows come home. The next two games should be a war won up front. Couldnt care less about width on the ball or incorporating the backline. I think even though they're struggling with fitness our starting centres and back three are inherently talented enough to finish a clean line break in a knock out match. But we need to batter teams into submission to give the backline the time to finish it off with scores.

Start this weekend by pulverising the russian pack all night long. Keep the ball tight and tire them out. Our starting pack have physicality in spades at the moment. Healy Best Paulie SOB Ferris and Heaslip (hopefully) are all monster ball carriers and incredible defenders. Increase the power in the 2nd 15.

Agree 100%! A forward orientated game will tire teams out then you can start to release the backs. It took Munster six attempts to figure that out against Leinster but it worked eventually. If Ireland get that blend right they will have no problem and will cause teams problems. Hopefully the other Ireland doesn't turn up!

[Ulster's Best]

What matters is what Kidney. Paulie, BOD and ROG think. And they all think that the first target is to get out of the pool. They will cncentrate on each game as it comes, one game at a time. Kidney and ROG have been doing this since 1998/99.

As long as ROG doesn't take the huff and stop speaking to Deccie altogether. And sit in his room (in between media interviews) with his cheeks getting ruddier. Very valuable player for Ireland but not the most appealing of characters it would seem!