Why cant England produce players?

[bruffian]

Why cant England,the nation with the largest number of rugby players in the world(by a considerable distance) produce enough home grown players,to make up their national teams?


Since the advent of pro rugby England have constantly had to sign up second generation saffies, or kiwis who've spent enough time in England.


It would seem that there must be something wrong with an underage structure that has the most players in the world yet still has to find players of other nationalities to play for them. Ireland at least have the excuse of being a small nation with a limited base.


You could almost make a strong English team out of all the foreign players that have played for England since the on set of professionalism.


1.Matt Stevens (South Africa)


2.


3.Perry Freshwater (New Zealand)


4. Simon Shaw(its a push,but i cant think of many other second rows!)


5.


6.Hendrie Fourie (South Africa)


7.


8.Dan Ward (New Zealand)


9. Kyran Bracken (Ireland)(Yet again,its a stretch,I know he moved when he was young)


10.Henry Paul (New Zealand)


11.Phil Christophers (Germany!)


12.Shontayne Hape(New Zealand)


13.Riki Flutey(New Zealand)


14.Lesly Vainikolo (Tonga by way of New Zealand)


15. Mike Catt (South Africa)


Then you have players like Stuaty Abbott(South Africa), Nick Abendanon(South Africa), the Armitage boys were born in Trinidad and raised in France!


Feel free to name any others ive missed.

[The Word Is Born]

Dylan Hartley

[The Outlaw]

Ben Youngs- brilliant scrum half. Will be a future world number one.


Dan Cole- excellent prop.


Courtney lawes- serious talent in my view.


They are regrouping nicely at underage level. Seen most of their teams at u20 leveland they have some outstanding young players. They've only really got orgainsed at underage level in the last 3\4 years they are on the way back bigtime.


I agree with your analysis but i dont think that will repeat itself 4-5 years from now. They are hampered with a clown as a director of rugby and an inexperienced head coach. We're going to find it very difficult to beat them next year.


God help us with their playing resources if they ever truely get organised properly. 250,000 players.

[Patman]

Well spotted TWIB. Hartley is kiwi. I had forgotten about
him.

[JoeyFantastic]

Dylan hartley is from NZ, Mike Catt is from SA, Mordt is from
Zimbabwe, Barrett is from SA too, iirc.

Very very strange when you consider how strong England are
underage, the number of young players with AP clubs and the
massive player base.

For some reason a lot of English players seem to fail to step
up from having potential at 21 to being past it at 24.

[kahalui]

Considering their population and sporting tradition, Eng are crap at most sports rugby being no exception.

Why cant England,the nation with the
largest number of rugby players in the world(by a
considerable distance) produce enough home grown
players,to make up *their national teams?


Since the advent of pro rugby England have constantly
had to sign up second generation saffies, or kiwis who've
spent enough time in England.


It would seem that there must be something wrong with
an underage structure that has the most players in the
world yet still has to find players of other nationalities to
play for them. Ireland at least have the excuse of being a
small nation with a limited base.


You could almost make a strong English team out of all
the foreign players that have played for England since the
on set of professionalism.


1.Matt Stevens (South Africa)


2.


3.Perry Freshwater (New Zealand)


4. Simon Shaw(its a push,but i cant think of many other
second rows!)


5.


6.Hendrie Fourie (South Africa)


7.


8.Dan Ward (New Zealand)


9. Kyran Bracken (Ireland)(Yet again,its a stretch,I
know he moved when he was young)


10.Henry Paul (New Zealand)


11.Phil Christophers (Germany!)


12.Shontayne Hape(New Zealand)


13.Riki Flutey*(New Zealand)


14.Lesly Vainikolo (Tonga by way of New Zealand)


15. Mike Catt (South Africa)


Then you have players like Stuaty Abbott(South Africa),
Nick Abendanon(South Africa), the Armitage boys were
born in Trinidad and raised in France!


Feel free to name any others ive missed.


*


*


*

to be fair half the players you've mentioned as "foreign"
aren't really. Players like Shaw and Christophers may
have been born in a different country but they weren't from
that country - by that token the man who won his 100th
cap for Ireland yesterday should never be called Irish and
the Ireland #8 wasn't either.

[bruffian]

to be fair half the players you've mentioned as "foreign"
aren't really. Players like Shaw and Christophers may
have been born in a different country but they weren't from
that country - by that token the man who won his 100th
cap for Ireland yesterday should never be called Irish and
the Ireland #8 wasn't either.

Ill give you shaw. He moved vey young and to be honest,I just wanted to use a 2nd row!


Christophers however did live in Germany until he was 16

to be fair half the players
you've mentioned as "foreign" aren't really. Players like
Shaw and Christophers may have been born in a different
country but they weren't from that country - by that token
the man who won his 100th cap for Ireland yesterday
should never be called Irish and the Ireland #8 wasn't
either.

Ill give you shaw. He moved vey young and to be
honest,I just wanted to use a 2nd row!


Christophers however did live in Germany until he was
16

I'd think the Irish of all people should understand about
migrating and working abroad and children being raised in
that situation. I think there's some, like Flutey, you're spot
on with, guys who didn't make it in their own country and
then jump at an international place for the sake of it rather
than representing a country. But I'd suggest some of these
guys did represent England because they were English,
regardless of place of birth.

[Mebawsa Ritchie]

Considering their population and sporting tradition, Eng are crap at most sports rugby being no exception.

They excel in:

1/. Snooker
2/. Darts
3/. Shove h'apenny
4/. Table skittles
5/. Crown green bowling
6/. also rowing/cycling/athletics.

[JN.Allezdax.com]

You already have the response in your question... Players, playing. England does not have any idea about this concepts,is the country of cynism, of down-to-earth, of rationalism. No madness, no fantasy. Why does finance play such a big role in the country? Why is the city so powerfull? Except John Steed and his so fantastic and marvelous Emma P. (The most sexy woman in the world after mine...), I do not find any argument for this. And worse: The older I am, the more I appreciate England. Maybe because I feel blasé and hopeless. But fortunatelly, Ireland comes to rescue me. Slainte! [img]smileys/wink.gif[/img]

[bootlace]

The problem with England is that they concentrate on physical strength,as opposed to footballing skills,the likes of Shane Williams,and BOD would never get into an English team as they are'nt physically big enough for their positions,the majority of English clubs are coached by forwards,they tend to go for the bish bash approach,they rely on a 9 man 10 man style of rugby,they think that the bigger and stronger you are the better you are.

The problem with England is that they
concentrate on physical strength,as opposed to footballing
skills,the likes of Shane Williams,and BOD would never get
into an English team as they are'nt physically big enough
for their positions,the majority of English clubs are coached
by forwards,they tend to go for the bish bash
approach,they rely on a 9 man 10 man style of rugby,they
think that the bigger and stronger you are the better you
are.

spot on - oddly also for a country that is capable of fronting
up to the likes of NZ and SA they are overly impressed
with players from those countries, like Flutey, even though
they weren't good enough to be internationals there.

[bruffian]

The problem with England is that they concentrate on physical strength,as opposed to footballing skills,the likes of Shane Williams,and BOD would never get into an English team as they are'nt physically big enough for their positions,the majority of English clubs are coached by forwards,they tend to go for the bish bash approach,they rely on a 9 man 10 man style of rugby,they think that the bigger and stronger you are the better you are.

hmmm,perhaps. Although I dont think the concepts of being physically powerful and skillful are mutually exclusive.


Sonny Bill is known for his ball handling skills and hes a monster. Indeed,most of the New Zealander backs are beasts. Although genetics could play a large role in that.

The problem with
England is that they concentrate on physical strength,as
opposed to footballing skills,the likes of Shane Williams,and
BOD would never get into an English team as they are'nt
physically big enough for their positions,the majority of
English clubs are coached by forwards,they tend to go for
the bish bash approach,they rely on a 9 man 10 man style
of rugby,they think that the bigger and stronger you are
the better you are.

hmmm,perhaps. Although I dont think the concepts of
being physically powerful and skillful are mutually
exclusive.


Sonny Bill is known for his ball handling skills and hes a
monster. Indeed,most of the New Zealander backs are
beasts. Although genetics could play a large role in that.

Don't start me on the genetics stuff, I've never understood
why we're naturally physically inferior due to genetics when
we come from hard, rural, manual labour, rough conditions
stock. The genetic thing with islanders, BTW, is supposed
to be for obesity not muscle - to the point it's been seen as
a problem.

Fact is in somewhere like NZ skill and power aren't
mutually exclusive because they develop their players
skills from such an early age that they can develop the
power at the right time without the skill set suffering. They
also develop the skills at an early age that maximise their
power. It's only really guys like Jason White who have the
technique to maximise the power. McCaw is physically
nothing exceptional compared to the top Irish back rows -
genuinely. But his body position and technique is spot on
so he gains more from his body.

I do honestly think England have suffered from bish, bash,
bosh rugby. Someone like Geordan Murphy, talented
though he is, stands out even more so when you watch him
in a Leicester match because his creativity is just so at
odds with the rest of the rugby being played.

[bruffian]

The problem with
England is that they concentrate on physical strength,as
opposed to footballing skills,the likes of Shane Williams,and
BOD would never get into an English team as they are'nt
physically big enough for their positions,the majority of
English clubs are coached by forwards,they tend to go for
the bish bash approach,they rely on a 9 man 10 man style
of rugby,they think that the bigger and stronger you are
the better you are.

hmmm,perhaps. Although I dont think the concepts of
being physically powerful and skillful are mutually
exclusive.



Sonny Bill is known for his ball handling skills and hes a
monster. Indeed,most of the New Zealander backs are
beasts. Although genetics could play a large role in that.

Don't start me on the genetics stuff, I've never understood
why we're naturally physically inferior due to genetics when
we come from hard, rural, manual labour, rough conditions
stock. The genetic thing with islanders, BTW, is supposed
to be for obesity not muscle - to the point it's been seen as
a problem.

Fact is in somewhere like NZ skill and power aren't
mutually exclusive because they develop their players
skills from such an early age that they can develop the
power at the right time without the skill set suffering. They
also develop the skills at an early age that maximise their
power. It's only really guys like Jason White who have the
technique to maximise the power. McCaw is physically
nothing exceptional compared to the top Irish back rows -
genuinely. But his body position and technique is spot on
so he gains more from his body.

I do honestly think England have suffered from bish, bash,
bosh rugby. Someone like Geordan Murphy, talented
though he is, stands out even more so when you watch him
in a Leicester match because his creativity is just so at
odds with the rest of the rugby being played.

The genetics thing is a fact. End of.


Do you think its co-incidence that Samoa,Tonga and Fiji and New Zealanders of that decent,can constantly produce 6'2 17 stone wingers who can run like the wind?


Manual,hard working background has zero to do with genetics.


I doubt if Ireland could EVER prodcue someone with the physical capabilities of Vainikolo,Lomu,Nalaga or Tuilagi. It is simply not in our genetic makeup.


Yet the Islands which combined dont have Irelands population do it all the time,so of course genetics are involved

The problem with England is that they
concentrate on physical strength,as opposed to footballing
skills,the likes of Shane Williams,and BOD would never get
into an English team as they are'nt physically big enough
for their positions,the majority of English clubs are coached
by forwards,they tend to go for the bish bash
approach,they rely on a 9 man 10 man style of rugby,they
think that the bigger and stronger you are the better you
are.

hmmm,perhaps. Although I dont think the concepts of
being physically powerful and skillful are mutually
exclusive.


Sonny Bill is known for his ball handling skills and hes a
monster. Indeed,most of the New Zealander backs are
beasts. Although genetics could play a large role in that.

Don't start me on the genetics stuff, I've
never understood why we're naturally physically inferior
due to genetics when we come from hard, rural, manual
labour, rough conditions stock. The genetic thing with
islanders, BTW, is supposed to be for obesity not muscle -
to the point it's been seen as a problem. Fact is in
somewhere like NZ skill and power aren't mutually
exclusive because they develop their players skills from
such an early age that they can develop the power at the
right time without the skill set suffering. They also develop
the skills at an early age that maximise their power. It's
only really guys like Jason White who have the technique to
maximise the power. McCaw is physically nothing
exceptional compared to the top Irish back rows -
genuinely. But his body position and technique is spot on so
he gains more from his body. I do honestly think England
have suffered from bish, bash, bosh rugby. Someone like
Geordan Murphy, talented though he is, stands out even
more so when you watch him in a Leicester match because
his creativity is just so at odds with the rest of the rugby
being played.

The genetics thing is a fact. End of.


Do you think its* co-incidence that Samoa,Tonga and Fiji
and New Zealanders of that decent,can constantly produce*
6'2 17 stone wingers who can run like the wind?


Manual,hard working background has zero to do with
genetics.


I doubt if Ireland could EVER prodcue someone with the
physical capabilities of Vainikolo,Lomu or Tuilagi. It is
simply not in our genetic makeup.


Yet the Islands which combined dont have Irelands
population do it all the time,so of course genetics are
involved

actually things like the lifestyle form the bodies and the
natural development follows over centuries/millennia - it's
not a case of someone 25,000 years ago had good bone
structure so you still do today. The Irish peoples have
been living a lifestyle for millennia that would be influencing
our genetic make up.

I'd also say look at the number of big heavy guys the
islands produce who struggle to stay big muscular rather
then weighty - prime example a certain player who was
with Munster recently.

I'm not writing it off or denying these guys are naturally
very big. I'm just saying this idea that our genes are
skinny and weak so we cannot compete is an excuse. Look
at some of the guys playing GAA as amateurs and semi-
pro at most, big lads. We just have a poor development
structure that still isn't bring our players through to
anything like their natural physicality and skill sets. The
argument we cannot compete physically is allowing that to
continue.

[bruffian]

The problem with England is that they
concentrate on physical strength,as opposed to footballing
skills,the likes of Shane Williams,and BOD would never get
into an English team as they are'nt physically big enough
for their positions,the majority of English clubs are coached
by forwards,they tend to go for the bish bash
approach,they rely on a 9 man 10 man style of rugby,they
think that the bigger and stronger you are the better you
are.

hmmm,perhaps. Although I dont think the concepts of
being physically powerful and skillful are mutually
exclusive.



Sonny Bill is known for his ball handling skills and hes a
monster. Indeed,most of the New Zealander backs are
beasts. Although genetics could play a large role in that.

Don't start me on the genetics stuff, I've
never understood why we're naturally physically inferior
due to genetics when we come from hard, rural, manual
labour, rough conditions stock. The genetic thing with
islanders, BTW, is supposed to be for obesity not muscle -
to the point it's been seen as a problem. Fact is in
somewhere like NZ skill and power aren't mutually
exclusive because they develop their players skills from
such an early age that they can develop the power at the
right time without the skill set suffering. They also develop
the skills at an early age that maximise their power. It's
only really guys like Jason White who have the technique to
maximise the power. McCaw is physically nothing
exceptional compared to the top Irish back rows -
genuinely. But his body position and technique is spot on so
he gains more from his body. I do honestly think England
have suffered from bish, bash, bosh rugby. Someone like
Geordan Murphy, talented though he is, stands out even
more so when you watch him in a Leicester match because
his creativity is just so at odds with the rest of the rugby
being played.

The genetics thing is a fact. End of.



Do you think its co-incidence that Samoa,Tonga and Fiji
and New Zealanders of that decent,can constantly produce
6'2 17 stone wingers who can run like the wind?



Manual,hard working background has zero to do with
genetics.



I doubt if Ireland could EVER prodcue someone with the
physical capabilities of Vainikolo,Lomu or Tuilagi. It is
simply not in our genetic makeup.



Yet the Islands which combined dont have Irelands
population do it all the time,so of course genetics are
involved

actually things like the lifestyle form the bodies and the
natural development follows over centuries/millennia - it's
not a case of someone 25,000 years ago had good bone
structure so you still do today. The Irish peoples have
been living a lifestyle for millennia that would be influencing
our genetic make up.

I'd also say look at the number of big heavy guys the
islands produce who struggle to stay big muscular rather
then weighty - prime example a certain player who was
with Munster recently.

I'm not writing it off or denying these guys are naturally
very big. I'm just saying this idea that our genes are
skinny and weak so we cannot compete is an excuse. Look
at some of the guys playing GAA as amateurs and semi-
pro at most, big lads. We just have a poor development
structure that still isn't bring our players through to
anything like their natural physicality and skill sets. The
argument we cannot compete physically is allowing that to
continue.

Not saying we cant compete as a rugby team,just saying that physicaly we wont be able to match them. We,are not going to consistently produce 16 1/2 stone plus backs,who can run.


Same reason we'll probably never see a white 100m champion.

[The Outlaw]

England are getting their act together behind the scenes. I think we're underestimating them a bit. If they find some decent centres they will be hugely competiitve next year.

[peatbog]

Part of the problem in England and the other home nations is we play our season in worse conditions than the Southerners. as a result we traditionallyhave to play the conditions and that means moreforward 10 man orientated rugby than they do.where the backs can't apply skilful, ball in hand, offloading as much.


It might seem a bitextreme but the home nations are a bit more conservative i think in their approach to everything, not just rugby. therefore, the coaches up here still have a bit of a mentality of"everything was better in my day"mentality although that is changing because professionalism has forced it to. Sanzar on the other hand are younger more progressive countries ina lot of ways(don't anybody start a political debate please) and have more of a' can do' rather than a 'don't fail' attitude.

[kahalui]

The problem with England is that they

concentrate on physical strength,as opposed to footballing

skills,the likes of Shane Williams,and BOD would never get

into an English team as they are'nt physically big enough

for their positions,the majority of English clubs are coached

by forwards,they tend to go for the bish bash

approach,they rely on a 9 man 10 man style of rugby,they

think that the bigger and stronger you are the better you

are.

hmmm,perhaps. Although I dont think the concepts of

being physically powerful and skillful are mutually

exclusive.



Sonny Bill is known for his ball handling skills and hes a

monster. Indeed,most of the New Zealander backs are

beasts. Although genetics could play a large role in that.

Don't start me on the genetics stuff, I've

never understood why we're naturally physically inferior

due to genetics when we come from hard, rural, manual

labour, rough conditions stock. The genetic thing with

islanders, BTW, is supposed to be for obesity not muscle -

to the point it's been seen as a problem. Fact is in

somewhere like NZ skill and power aren't mutually

exclusive because they develop their players skills from

such an early age that they can develop the power at the

right time without the skill set suffering. They also develop

the skills at an early age that maximise their power. It's

only really guys like Jason White who have the technique to

maximise the power. McCaw is physically nothing

exceptional compared to the top Irish back rows -

genuinely. But his body position and technique is spot on so

he gains more from his body. I do honestly think England

have suffered from bish, bash, bosh rugby. Someone like

Geordan Murphy, talented though he is, stands out even

more so when you watch him in a Leicester match because

his creativity is just so at odds with the rest of the rugby

being played.

The genetics thing is a fact. End of.



Do you think its co-incidence that Samoa,Tonga and Fiji

and New Zealanders of that decent,can constantly produce

6'2 17 stone wingers who can run like the wind?



Manual,hard working background has zero to do with

genetics.



I doubt if Ireland could EVER prodcue someone with the

physical capabilities of Vainikolo,Lomu or Tuilagi. It is

simply not in our genetic makeup.



Yet the Islands which combined dont have Irelands

population do it all the time,so of course genetics are

involved

actually things like the lifestyle form the bodies and the

natural development follows over centuries/millennia - it's

not a case of someone 25,000 years ago had good bone

structure so you still do today. The Irish peoples have

been living a lifestyle for millennia that would be influencing

our genetic make up.



I'd also say look at the number of big heavy guys the

islands produce who struggle to stay big muscular rather

then weighty - prime example a certain player who was

with Munster recently.



I'm not writing it off or denying these guys are naturally

very big. I'm just saying this idea that our genes are

skinny and weak so we cannot compete is an excuse. Look

at some of the guys playing GAA as amateurs and semi-

pro at most, big lads. We just have a poor development

structure that still isn't bring our players through to

anything like their natural physicality and skill sets. The

argument we cannot compete physically is allowing that to

continue.

GAA players?? They get thrown around like rag dolls by the aussies in the comprimise rules and you're comparing them with

GAA players?? They get thrown around like
rag dolls by the aussies in the comprimise rules and you're
comparing them with islanders for size?

No I'm making the point that amateurs in GAA are managing
to produce big guys without it being their main job and it's not
like the big names are playing in that b*****dised money
making exercise either.

[dropkick]

Theres plenty of GAA players who would have been suitable
for rugby. Dairmuid O'Sullivan, Cairan Whelan, Tommy Walsh
(Kerry) etc

Every body type has advantages and disadvantages.

The South Africans tend to produce the best forwards
physically with the England never far behind. England has a
massive population and rugby is the no 1 sport the South
Africans play so all there big farmers would be playing.

[Charco]

GAA players??
They get thrown around like
rag dolls by the aussies in the comprimise rules and you're
comparing them with islanders for size?

No I'm making the point that amateurs in GAA are
managing
to produce big guys without it being their main job and it's
not
like the big names are playing in that b*****dised money
making exercise either.

Like who, EO? What GAA players can physically put it up to
even the Irish rugby players?

[bruffian]

GAA players??
They get thrown around like
rag dolls by the aussies in the comprimise rules and you're
comparing them with islanders for size?

No I'm making the point that amateurs in GAA are
managing
to produce big guys without it being their main job and it's
not
like the big names are playing in that b*****dised money
making exercise either.

Like who, EO? What GAA players can physically put it up to
even the Irish rugby players?

Thats not really the point.


think the point is that if someone like Diarmuid O Suillivan was in a rugbyacademy at age 18 onwards,on a proper weights program,nutritionist etc,he'd have been as powerful as most international back rowers.


Same goes for Joe Canning,Stephen Banville, Tommy Walsh(Kerry) and a host of others.


They play an amateur sort,that relys more on endurance than power,so they of course wouldnt bulk up like rugby players.


But in term of natural size and strength,those lads have the match of most international rugby players.

[Charco]

GAA players?? They get thrown
around like rag dolls by the aussies in the comprimise rules
and you're comparing them with islanders for size?

<s&#111;ng>No I'm making the point that amateurs in GAA
are managing to produce big guys without it being their
main job</s&#111;ng> and it's not like the big names are playing in
that b*****dised money making exercise either.

Like who, EO? What GAA players can physically put it up to
even the Irish rugby players?

Thats not really the point.


*think the point is that if someone like Diarmuid O
Suillivan was in a rugby*academy at age 18 onwards,on a
proper weights program,nutritionist etc,he'd have been as
powerful as most international back rowers.


Same goes for Joe Canning,Stephen Banville, Tommy
Walsh(Kerry) and a host of others.


They play an amateur sort,that relys more on
endurance than power,so they of course wouldnt bulk up
like rugby players.


But in term of natural size and strength,those lads have
the match of most international rugby players.

[Pedant] His point was about there being big players
currently in the GAA, so it was the point. [/Pedant]

But yeah there's no argument there. Some GAA players
(like the ones you mentioned) would be well suited to
rugby.

[kahalui]

GAA players??
They get thrown around like
rag dolls by the aussies in the comprimise rules and you're
comparing them with islanders for size?

No I'm making the point that amateurs in GAA are
managing
to produce big guys without it being their main job and it's
not
like the big names are playing in that b*****dised money
making exercise either.

Like who, EO? What GAA players can physically put it up to
even the Irish rugby players?

Thats not really the point.


think the point is that if someone like Diarmuid O Suillivan was in a rugbyacademy at age 18 onwards,on a proper weights program,nutritionist etc,he'd have been as powerful as most international back rowers.


Same goes for Joe Canning,Stephen Banville, Tommy Walsh(Kerry) and a host of others.


They play an amateur sort,that relys more on endurance than power,so they of course wouldnt bulk up like rugby players.


But in term of natural size and strength,those lads have the match of most international rugby players.

No they dont. The GAA players you're mentioning might make it size wise, but the majority wouldnt.

EO, The PIs dont need conditioning to get to the required size and strength. Thats the difference.

[Balla Boy]

No they dont. The GAA players you're mentioning might make it size wise, but the majority wouldnt.

EO, The PIs dont need conditioning to get to the required size and strength. Thats the difference.

You can take an argument too far, I think.


There's plenty of conditioning work put in to building islanders like that. We're talking about, on average, the fattestpeople in the world - the frequently cited statistical block to Americans grabbing that title.


http://www.forbes.com/2007/02/07/wor...t-countries-fo rbeslife-cx_ls_0208worldfat_2.html


I wouldn't get too carried away with the notion that they're all invariable massive, either. I've played with a number of Islanders over the last few years and the Fijians in particular fall into the "wiry and evasive" mould as often as they fall into the "massive and powerful" mode.


We are, after all, talking about a group of nations whose limitations at international level have generally been defined by their inability to produce forwards.

[sewa]

This thread is so going to backfire on us come the 6Nations. We will get beaten from pillar to post

[Aussiedub]

This thread is so going to backfire on us come the 6Nations. We will get beaten from pillar to post

Why??