Electoral Reform

[scotscor]

I'm not sure what the job of a TD is it seems to be pretty close to a godfather, you have to ensure that all the roads are pothole free, that the planning process is avoided, that the medical cards are given to those that are not entitled to them. You have to be able to kiss babies and shake loads of hands.
You must ensure that noone else who is capable in your constituency gets to run, that your son and heir or at least a close family connection is lined up behind you in the council.
You must ensure that you can pick the greatest amadán in the county and somehow nurture him to be your running mate, but never a threat. He may get a seat from your surplus but he wont take your seat.
Oh and you have to seat in a commitee and discuss legislation (its not a very important part of teh job and most peaople wont notice if you are not there. But by god dont miss John Kellys funeral.

So I have an idea, its something I have mentioned here before a couple of times in the last year or so and has been suggested again over the last two days by davidos/ daky I think.

1) Change the dail to 100 deputies.
2) Elect 50 from single seat constituencies.
3) Elect 50 from a list system.
4) Clearly define the role of a TD.
5) Reduce drastically the wages for a TD.
6) Define and expand the role of Councillors and the Civic Information Centres.
7) Have strict enforcement for any small favours (such as planning or washing machines) that a TD does. All this patronage should lead to instant dismissal.

Effectively you are downgrading the lustre of the job, get people who are honest. and who want to legislate, not kiss babies.

yeah, pretty much agree with that. What we have at the moment is hopeless. Unfortunately, short of revolution, i can't see any such changes happening.

[scotscor]

Before I posted the other thread - the quicksand island one, I thought this sort of change is possible, but I really cant believe the lack of action that people want to take.
Ahh sure it will all come good or bad in the end, sure whichever way god wills it.

[Magsy]

A few problems.

1) and 2) I don't think this would make a difference. Why not 33 constituencis with 3 from each? or 50 constituencies with 2 from each? And then you go back to making it based on population which is fair enough. No need to change it.

3) This wouldn't work at all as most would be from Dublin. People would vote for local representatives and Dublin, with the highest density of voters would clean up. It'd be very hard for someone from Donegal to get votes from Cork. Not so hard for someone from Sandymount to get votes from Terenure.

4) and 5) To get TDs who are competent enough to run a country, the best minds in the country need to be attracted to the job. Therefore I would argue pay needs to be increased, especially for ministers. Obviously it would have to be performance related somehow...

The real problem is the Irish people see nothing wrong with voting for the person who got Mary O'Reilly a medical card even though she wasn't entitled to one or who put in a good word with planning so her son could build a monstrosity around the back of her house.

We vote for muppets. We accept their decisions without doing anything to stop them (Except or the pensioners, younger generations could learn from them) and we even now standby as they renationalise a bank to keep property developers happy. Where were the billions we're throwing at the banks when schools around the country were looking for classrooms, hospitals for beds, Gardai for resources etc etc etc (I realise I went off the point here, apologies.... I got a little carried away)

Main point, if Irish people don't really care about politics and how are country is run no amount of reform will get rid of the corruption

[scotscor]

Sorry maggsy I didnt explain the fundamental flaw with multi seat constituencies. The problem is that the person most likely to take your seat is from your own party, as such you have to stiffle all creativity and out patronage them.
With regard to the list system, its not one constituency, its a mostly party driven process, you have FF numbers 1-50, if FF only collect 10% of the national list vote, then only their first five names on the list get in.

If there could be a debate on the role of the TD, then this might actually change things.

What do you think the role of a td should be?

short of revolution (which may not give you the results you want anyway), you just have to plug away and try and bring enough Irish people to the realisation that there is a better way, and support such reforms. It's one of the reasons why i think the Greens are/were so important. Aside from their environmental and social policies, they repesented a clear, modern progressive mindset and the hope was that they would gradually bring enough people to their way of thinking that real reform could be implemented. It was always going to be a small minority who would do so, and it's one of the reasons that they had to take the chance and enter government. If you do manage to implement the reforms, then you de facto will change the backward mindset of the people because the new system won't encourage corruption and political expediency to the same degree. We would in effect become more like northern european society very quickly. But the problem is that we are in the quicksand, as a society, and it's almost impossible to make that jump out of it, i.e. make those electoral reforms.

[Eamo]

The following would require a constitutional referendum but it's a solution.


1.The number of TDs to be cut to 51 (the cc would be a civil servant -eg a judge)


2.Elections to be based on a list system.ie each party presents a list of candidates and we vote on party (or independent policy) not on names.Sayonara to the parish pump.


3.Abolish all county,city councils.Sayonara as above.


4.Everyone in public service takes a 40pc to 1 pc pay cut based on salary levels say 250+k at the top to 50k at the bottom.The numbers can be equitably figured out.


5.Reduce vat to 10pc -I'd go lower but 10pc is the EU floor currently.


6.Prune defence spending and foreign aid to the degree that they are profit centres only (UN missions and trade deals).


7.Get rid of the charitable status of churches etc.They should pay tax.


I could go on.Legalise all drugs eg makes sense on so many levels but it might be a step too far-ditto legalising prostitution and taxing both.


The only good thing about the current Repression (borrowed phrase from Niall Ferguson) is that it offers an opportunity for a sea-change.Lets grasp it.


ps copied this from my Quickstand thread post

[bruffian]

dont forget to abolish the seannad.


Its not democratic and its quite useless.Abolishing it would also save the hard pressed tax payers some money.


New Zealand abolished its senate years ago and it hasnt done them any harm!

[Magsy]

The list is an interesting idea. It would be very hard to implement. I'm not sure the electoral system is the problem to be honest. It would work very well if the public actually demanded more from the local representatives, especially on a national level. Politicians help individuals, get nothing done on a national level and get elected. Policy makers/parliamentarians don't get much grass roots work done, do a lot on a national level and lose their job.

Also, if people cared more about who they were voting, elections would be much more competitive and the planks who get dragged in as a second seat wouldn't stand a chance.

It's very hard to define the role of a TD. I know I expect a hell of a lot more from them than what they do now (as I would of our MEPs who don't read treaties). A TDs main concern is keeping their job. They are there to represent their constituency and for the most part couldn't be bothered doing much more. They need to pay more attention to crime, health care, education, energy and the economy. But to this they need to know something about policy, economics etc. Most of the aren't the brightest. One of the problems to me seems to be that if they do something they get slated in the media by opposition for it. If they do nothing nobody cares. So why do it?

Take McDowell, who I think I disagreed with on almost everything, who actually got a lot done. He didn't wait around for ages scratching his arse either, he just did it. Every week on Q&A his policies were debated (because no one else did anything) and he got a lot of bad press. He lost his seat/job. Willie O'Dea on the other hand got over 2 and a half quotas. He's a very good local politician in that he does loads of groundwork but he's a s**te parliamentarian and wouldn't know what to do if he was given a real ministerial post. (Willie O'Dea Minister for Transport haha)

I just wish TDs were held accountable by their constituents for what they did, were punished in votes for mistakes and broken promises. Were asked why they voted for/against a motion (like todays vote, I've no idea who voted which way - surely a website should be available) and were basically held more accountable by the electorate.

Unfortunately, most people couldn't be bothered turning out to vote. Hopefully, like has happened in the States, the downturn will force people to realise that voting actually matters!

Not the most coherent post, it's getting late. Basically - I feel very strongly about how poorly we're being represented but for me, unless people actually begin to care, TDs can and will keep on doing what they want.

(I could also go on a rant about the Seanad and the amount of ass scratching they do in there)

[Eamo]

A few problems.

1) and 2) I don't think this would make a difference. Why not 33 constituencis with 3 from each? or 50 constituencies with 2 from each? And then you go back to making it based on population which is fair enough. No need to change it.

3) This wouldn't work at all as most would be from Dublin. People would vote for local representatives and Dublin, with the highest density of voters would clean up. It'd be very hard for someone from Donegal to get votes from Cork. Not so hard for someone from Sandymount to get votes from Terenure.

4) and 5) To get TDs who are competent enough to run a country, the best minds in the country need to be attracted to the job. Therefore I would argue pay needs to be increased, especially for ministers. Obviously it would have to be performance related somehow...

The real problem is the Irish people see nothing wrong with voting for the person who got Mary O'Reilly a medical card even though she wasn't entitled to one or who put in a good word with planning so her son could build a monstrosity around the back of her house.

We vote for muppets. We accept their decisions without doing anything to stop them (Except or the pensioners, younger generations could learn from them) and we even now standby as they renationalise a bank to keep property developers happy. Where were the billions we're throwing at the banks when schools around the country were looking for classrooms, hospitals for beds, Gardai for resources etc etc etc (I realise I went off the point here, apologies.... I got a little carried away)

Main point, if Irish people don't really care about politics and how are country is run no amount of reform will get rid of the corruption

re 1 and 2 (a) the fewer the better.It makes each one more accountable and less likely to be in hock to pressurs groups.


re 3 Who cares where they are from?We never cared about the nationality of Big Jim or Champers .If the best people are elected their origin is irrelevant.


re 4 and 5 the best legislators/rulers don't do it for money.They do it from a sense of duty - in fact making the role non-paying might be an idea.


I agree with the rest of your post


Best Wishes

[Magsy]

The following would require a constitutional referendum but it's a solution.


1.The number of TDs to be cut to 51 (the cc would be a civil servant -eg a judge)


2.Elections to be based on a list system.ie each party presents a list of candidates and we vote on party (or independent policy) not on names.Sayonara to the parish pump.


3.Abolish all county,city councils.Sayonara as above.


4.Everyone in public service takes a 40pc to 1 pc pay cut based on salary levels say 250+k at the top to 50k at the bottom.The numbers can be equitably figured out.


5.Reduce vat to 10pc -I'd go lower but 10pc is the EU floor currently.


6.Prune defence spending and foreign aid to the degree that they are profit centres only (UN missions and trade deals).


7.Get rid of the charitable status of churches etc.They should pay tax.


I could go on.Legalise all drugs eg makes sense on so many levels but it might be a step too far-ditto legalising prostitution and taxing both.


The only good thing about the current Repression (borrowed phrase from Niall Ferguson) is that it offers an opportunity for a sea-change.Lets grasp it.


ps copied this from my Quickstand thread post

Legalising prostitution and drugs? There's more to society than its economy. Not that the adverse knock ons of both wouldn't negate any possible positives.

I hope we do grasp the chance to change. To build an economy from the bottom up, not from Anglo down.

Getting rid of councillors and implementing a list would mean absolutely no relationship between representatives and voters. That leads down a bad road to very low turn out, lack of prsonal accountability and even, it could be argued, to corporatism.

And points 4 and 5 contradict each other.

[Eamo]

Not gonna do the quote thing


(a) Theres more to society than the economy : There is for sure but you need a vibrant economy to look after the weaker members of society.The economy's health determines the money in each individual's pocket and the money available for distribution by the government to services (health,education etc) and to those unable to make ends meet.


Absolutely no relationship between voters and their elected reps is probably what we most need.Would you prefer Willie O Dea in the cabinet or say David McWilliams?


Point 4 was about reducing cost (public servants taking pay cuts) Point 5 was a reduction in VAT to encourage spending and limit the cross border shopping exodus.As an aside I'd favour going to zero VAT and risk the EU having a go at us but thats a diferent thread.Public servants (at least for now) have tenure so a wage cut (approx 3 bn in savings by the way on my numbers) will hurt spending less than the private sector cuts we see every day.Public sector employees are currently top of the list with the banks when it comes to credit.


Re the drugs and prostitution issues -thats an argument on two fronts.The first is a civil liberties one and the second an economic one based on 'first mover advantage' but it's a complex issue for this thread and especially for me after 3 bottles of Rioja.

I agree with pretty much everyone on this thread in the sense that we are all agreed that radical reform is needed. There are finer details to be debated, but really the likes of us are in such a minority that it's somewhat depressing even having this discussion.

On the separation of public and politicians (the McWilliams V O'Dea for cabinet idea), i think there is great merit to it, but would caution that it would have to representative. A government of elites would quickly lead to public discord, and would not last long before there was a strong move against it.

[Mucky Boots]

Unfortunately, regardless of the rules of the game, you still have a apathetic, uninformed electorate prone to generalisations and misconceptions. How do you explain Fianna Fáil's virtual monopoly on power?

While I'd wholeheartedly agree with a move away from clientelism to a more effective form of political service, the simple fact remains is that the best parties know how to alter their gameplan to suit the rules. We'd still get the same shower back in power.

I say abolish the party system altogether, it works in the Isle of Man (and yes, I'm aware that I'm being ultra-faecetious here.)

[scotscor]

by having a list system of 50% of the seats you allow the voters to choose a direction that they want a government to follow.
By having a single seat constituency to go alongside that you have someone to represent local issues at a national level. But because its not a multiseat constituency, they dont have to sort out the planning, just try and convince the minister to place a factory there.

[nuke]

The following would require a constitutional referendum but it's a solution.


1.The number of TDs to be cut to 51 (the cc would be a civil servant -eg a judge)


2.Elections to be based on a list system.ie each party presents a list of candidates and we vote on party (or independent policy) not on names.Sayonara to the parish pump.


3.Abolish all county,city councils.Sayonara as above.


4.Everyone in public service takes a 40pc to 1 pc pay cut based on salary levels say 250+k at the top to 50k at the bottom.The numbers can be equitably figured out.


5.Reduce vat to 10pc -I'd go lower but 10pc is the EU floor currently.


6.Prune defence spending and foreign aid to the degree that they are profit centres only (UN missions and trade deals).


7.Get rid of the charitable status of churches etc.They should pay tax.


I could go on.Legalise all drugs eg makes sense on so many levels but it might be a step too far-ditto legalising prostitution and taxing both.


The only good thing about the current Repression (borrowed phrase from Niall Ferguson) is that it offers an opportunity for a sea-change.Lets grasp it.


ps copied this from my Quickstand thread post

Legalising prostitution and drugs? There's more to society than its economy. Not that the adverse knock ons of both wouldn't negate any possible positives.

I hope we do grasp the chance to change. To build an economy from the bottom up, not from Anglo down.

Getting rid of councillors and implementing a list would mean absolutely no relationship between representatives and voters. That leads down a bad road to very low turn out, lack of prsonal accountability and even, it could be argued, to corporatism.

And points 4 and 5 contradict each other.

Well i'll start with the prostitution and drugs.

1) Prostitution is not illegal in this country. Soliciting in a public place, making a premises available for use as a brothel & advertising prostitution within the country are all illegal but the act of taking money for sex isn't so no problem there .

2) Drugs: I wouldn't have a problem with legalising & controlling cannibis but nothing stronger. It would turn this country into a bigger cesspit then it already is and we could forget about visa waivers to any other states, especially the US. It would be seen very negatively in corporate circles and we could forget any new foreign business investment.

As for taxing the above, that is one of the main functions of CAB so already in place.

There is nothing wrong with the number of TD's and the way the Dail works, what we are missing are stricter work practices for the TD's. The list systems proposed are far less likely to lead to equitable governance then the current system of PR.

I have no problems with reducing the number of public and civil servants but large paycuts are not the way to do it. If it is done this way the people who will leave are the most able and senior of the civil and executive service leaving their posts to be filled by those who are either inexperienced or not up to the job.

I don't see that getting rid of county councils would help, just make them more transparent and accountable. I would however get rid of local councils.

Wouldn't have a problem with the rest of the suggestions but let's be realistic for a moment. This government isn't going to introduce massive governance changes as are being discussed and neither are subsequent governments; and if they tried to it would need constitutional changes which are unlikely to be ratified because this is a very conservative country which does not embrace change and will not despite what some of the trade unionists and left wings speakers would have you believe.

[neiljung]

I'd be very supportive of moving to a partially list based system and a much smarter/smaller Dáil but the big issue will remain the Irish mentality towards what we want from politicians.

If you look at the UK they nearly have a list system without the lists, people vote very much along party lines, therefore a high profile would make a great minister type candidate can be dumped in a 'safe' seat and left focus on the big picture national problem rather than running around trying to find out why Mary doesn't have a medical card or when the pothole at the bottom of the road will get fixed.

[scotscor]

There is nothing wrong with the number of TD's and the way the Dail works, what we are missing are stricter work practices for the TD's. The list systems proposed are far less likely to lead to equitable governance then the current system of PR.

Hpw can you say that? we have a far greater number of national reps than the vast majority of parliaments in Europe. And they only get elected by clientalism and patronage. They are local godfathers. They are not elected to be legislaters. Why should a td have any interest in whether mary gets her card? He should worry about the direction of the country, not the depth of a pothole

[davidos]

Not gonna do the quote thing


(a) Theres more to society than the economy : There is for sure but you need a vibrant economy to look after the weaker members of society.The economy's health determines the money in each individual's pocket and the money available for distribution by the government to services (health,education etc) and to those unable to make ends meet.


Absolutely no relationship between voters and their elected reps is probably what we most need.Would you prefer Willie O Dea in the cabinet or say David McWilliams?


Point 4 was about reducing cost (public servants taking pay cuts) Point 5 was a reduction in VAT to encourage spending and limit the cross border shopping exodus.As an aside I'd favour going to zero VAT and risk the EU having a go at us but thats a diferent thread.Public servants (at least for now) have tenure so a wage cut (approx 3 bn in savings by the way on my numbers) will hurt spending less than the private sector cuts we see every day.Public sector employees are currently top of the list with the banks when it comes to credit.


Re the drugs and prostitution issues -thats an argument on two fronts.The first is a civil liberties one and the second an economic one based on 'first mover advantage' but it's a complex issue for this thread and especially for me after 3 bottles of Rioja.

Firstly EU floor is 15%. Secondly you donot mention that income tax would need to go to at least 30% and 50% to pay for the cut.


I agree about reducing number of TDs, but I would not reduce their pay, but advertise the salary to get bright people into parliament. The allowances should be reduced.


I would regionalise local government to 5 regions. Each County within a region would have its own representative, which would be supplemented by a list. But limit to 10 reps.

[bazzyg]

First things first, The senate has to go an absolute waste of money.


I don't get the rest as FF normally touch around 40% of the vote and they target better than most, so changing the rules may not work. It is down to you and I to cop on and think or be taught - beverley, lowry, ray burke, bertie etc if they are nationally attacked good old backwater will pick them up and send them back to spite you.


Party conventions are the real joke - pick the son or daughter. Something should be done with this (no ideas).

[scotscor]

I don't get the rest as FF normally touch around 40% of the vote and they target better than most, so changing the rules may not work. It is down to you and I to cop on and think or be taught - beverley, lowry, ray burke, bertie etc if they are nationally attacked good old backwater will pick them up and send them back to spite you.


Party conventions are the real joke - pick the son or daughter. Something should be done with this (no ideas).

With the split list system you would give Clare just one directly elected TD. very hard to maintain a dynasty when there is only one seat. The thing with multiseat constituencies is you have to watch out for your running mate.
Equally a list system would stifle backwaters voting rogues back in.

[scotscor]

Just bumping this after hearing about the new hospital in Kenmare. Anyone any better ideas for how to save the country?

[Combatlogo]

Just bumping this after hearing about the new hospital in Kenmare. Anyone any better ideas for how to save the country?

[McCloud]

I cannot believe I missed this thread until now[img]smileys/shock.gif[/img]Got a meeting in a minute but, I'll be back.

[McCloud]

Best possible reason for a list system[img]smileys/sad.gif[/img][img]smileys/mad.gif[/img]





Healy Rae did not 'put a gun to Govt's head'
Wednesday, December 09, 2009 - 01:00 PM


Jackie Healy Rae's son has said his father didn't "put a gun to the Government's head" in order to guarantee his vote for the Budget.


The Independent TD for Kerry South last night secured a written guarantee for the construction of a hospital in Kenmare.


Michael Healy Rae said it is not a new project and was agreed in the 2007 Programme for Government.


Read more: http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakin...and/healy-rae- did-not-put-a-gun-to-govts-head-437560.html#ixzz0ZCKCsMwO

[digidep]

And watch as Kerry folk vote him and his ilk back in time & time again [img]smileys/sad.gif[/img]

[scotscor]

I think an electoral reform referendum would pass in this country, you just put up pictures of Healy-ray and Lowry round dublin and people see what gangsters we have in our dail.


Seriously is anyone from Kerry or Tipp not embarrassed to hae these guys representing you?

[McCloud]

I think an electoral reform referendum would pass in this country, you just put up pictures of Healy-ray and Lowry round dublin and people see what gangsters we have in our dail.


Seriously is anyone from Kerry or Tipp not embarrassed to hae these guys representing you?

Did not Lowry not top the poll in Tipp last time out? Which kind of answers your question I guess.....

[Combatlogo]

I think an electoral reform referendum
would pass in this country, you just put up pictures of Healy-
ray and Lowry round dublin and people see what gangsters we
have in our dail.


Seriously is anyone from Kerry or Tipp not embarrassed to
hae these guys representing you?

It's ok, we have Finian McGrath and yer woman who won tony
Gregory's seat not to mention Kneecapper O'Snodaigh.

[scotscor]

Electoral reform is really rearing its head again after George, and your man saying we need constituency workers getting into the dail