One in 10 cars to be electric by 2020

[Drick]

<H1>One in 10 cars to be electric by 2020, says Government</H1>
<H1></H1>26/11/2008 - 13:09:06
A quarter of a million cars on Irish roads will be electric-powered in just 12 years, under ambitious plans unveiled today.

The Government said it will bring in tax breaks and develop a system of street charging points for the low carbon vehicles.

Energy Minister Eamon Ryan and Transport Minister Noel Dempsey have also vowed to pour €1m into a nationwide campaign encouraging people to switch over from petrol and diesel.

“All journeys start with one step. This Government initiative is an important step in transforming our current unsustainable travel and transport patterns,” said Mr Dempsey.

Under the plans, 10% of all cars, vans and trucks on the Republic’s roads - around 250,000 vehicles according to the official forecast – will be electric-run by 2020.

To achieve this, a new tax incentive is to be introduced which will allow businesses to write off the full cost of an electric vehicle against tax under the Accelerated Capital Allowance Scheme.

The national energy agency Sustainable Energy Ireland will also begin a one million euro project researching, developing and the demonstrating the vehicles across the state.

A National Task Force will make recommendations on how the country’s infrastructure needs to be adapted for the roll-out of the vehicles, including plans for street charging points.

And consumers will be issued with a “buyer’s guide” and a “cost of ownership calculator” in an attempt to persuade them to change to the greener alternative.

“Ireland’s transport future must include smarter, more sustainable travel choices,” said Mr Dempsey.

“It will help us reduce our dependence on fossil fuels, improve energy security and lower our transport emissions.”

Mr Ryan said the plans mirror similar developments in Israel, Denmark and Portugal and would help the economy recover.

“This year Ireland will send over €6bn out of the country to pay for fossil fuels,” he said.

“I want to bring this money back into the Irish economy and fuel our transport fleet with Irish renewable electricity.”

But Simon Coveney, Fine Gael’s energy spokesman, branded the plans unambitious and inadequate.

“While other countries such as Israel and Denmark are planning for the complete replacement of car fleets with electric vehicles, or at least a high percentage future, here in Ireland we are proposing a mere 10%,” he said.

“A massive shift over the next 15 years from petrol or diesel fuelled engines to electric vehicles is both achievable and exciting, as a way of dramatically reducing emissions in the transport sector.”

[jmccoy]

“It will help us reduce our dependence on fossil fuels, improve energy security and lower our transport emissions.”</span>

I cant see how, most of our power stations which generate electricity are coal, gas and turf fired. Effectively what you would be doing is transferring emissions from the exhaust pipe to the power station chimney. Also more generation capacity will be required if a sizable shift were to occur.

“It will help us reduce our dependence on fossil fuels, improve energy security and lower our transport emissions.”</span>

I cant see how, most of our power stations which generate electricity are coal, gas and turf fired. Effectively what you would be doing is transferring emissions from the exhaust pipe to the power station chimney. Also more generation capacity will be required if a sizable shift were to occur.

We're talking about using renewable energy to provide the power, rather than the coal, peat and gas-fired power stations you mention. Hence, there would actually be a massive reduction in emissions. Furthermore, it'll make small scale local renewables much more economically feasible.

[Hugged Rugger]

before i waste any time reading that is this a Green Party Initiative?

[jmccoy]

“It will help us reduce our dependence on fossil fuels, improve energy security and lower our transport emissions.”</span>

I cant see how, most of our power stations which generate electricity are coal, gas and turf fired. Effectively what you would be doing is transferring emissions from the exhaust pipe to the power station chimney. Also more generation capacity will be required if a sizable shift were to occur.

We're talking about using renewable energy to provide the power, rather than the coal, peat and gas-fired power stations you mention. Hence, there would actually be a massive reduction in emissions. Furthermore, it'll make small scale local renewables much more economically feasible.

I'm all for it, but I still fail to see how this will have any serious impact unless we speed up the ending of our reliance on fossil fuel energy generation in this country. A lot of people will also need to change their mindset in regards to objecting to wind farms and the like, what would they prefer in their back yard a wind turbine, a fossil fuel fired plant or god forbid a nuclear plant. Out of interest, what is the split in percentage terms between fossil fuel generation and generation by renewable means in this country.

[McCloud]

“It will help us reduce our dependence on fossil fuels, improve energy security and lower our transport emissions.”

I cant see how, most of our power stations which generate electricity are coal, gas and turf fired. Effectively what you would be doing is transferring emissions from the exhaust pipe to the power station chimney. Also more generation capacity will be required if a sizable shift were to occur.

We're talking about using renewable energy to provide the power, rather than the coal, peat and gas-fired power stations you mention. Hence, there would actually be a massive reduction in emissions. Furthermore, it'll make small scale local renewables much more economically feasible.

Renewable energy, solar panels?








Guess the cars will all be convertables as when it's raining nobody will be able to make use of the on street sockets[img]smileys/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Balla Boy]

"develop a system of street charging points "





Electric vehicles will never work while the infrastructure is still planned like a petrol station.


One universal battery format that you pay an annual rental on. When it's running low, you pull into some filling station equivalent and swap it for a charged one.


Only way forward. People won't stand there waiting for their cars to charge so they can drive them.

[mr chips]

I don't see that establishing a network of "street charging points" will be feasible - given the length of time it takes to recharge a battery, it would probably make more sense to have a "battery exchange" network set up, whereby you could change the battery for a pre-charged one in a similar amount of time to what it takes to fill a tank of conventional fuel. That could probably make use of existing infrastructure as well cos it should really only be an off-the-shelf swap. All it needs is for the batteries in these cars to be made accessible and easily changed. If every filling station had a wind-turbine or two for charging the batteries, it could be a pretty much zero emission solution.

[mr chips]

Ah, you got there ahead of me Balla![img]smileys/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Jenta]

On the street chargers? It'll never work. I'd go for battery exchange or something.

[Balla Boy]

“It will help us reduce our dependence on fossil fuels, improve energy security and lower our transport emissions.”

I cant see how, most of our power stations which generate electricity are coal, gas and turf fired. Effectively what you would be doing is transferring emissions from the exhaust pipe to the power station chimney. Also more generation capacity will be required if a sizable shift were to occur.

It's not just a question of the emissions though. Even without renewables, if you can make the generation and transmission more energy efficient than the extraction and upstream of petrol then you're up on the switch.

[jmccoy]

"develop a system of street charging points "





Electric vehicles will never work while the infrastructure is still planned like a petrol station.


One universal battery format that you pay an annual rental on. When it's running low, you pull into some filling station equivalent and swap it for a charged one.


Only way forward. People won't stand there waiting for their cars to charge so they can drive them.

I don't see that establishing a network of "street charging points"
will be feasible - given the length of time it takes to recharge a
battery, it would probably make more sense to have a "battery exchange"
network set up, whereby you could change the battery for a pre-charged
one in a similar amount of time to what it takes to fill a tank of
conventional fuel. That could probably make use of existing
infrastructure as well cos it should really only be an off-the-shelf
swap. All it needs is for the batteries in these cars to be made
accessible and easily changed. If every filling station had a
wind-turbine or two for charging the batteries, it could be a pretty
much zero emission solution.

Battery exchange could be a good idea but the logistics involved would have a lot of complexity. First of all you would need a massive premises, large ventilated and temperature controlled charging facilty, large finished goods pick up point, a pretty robust battery inspection process for safety purposes and the list goes on.

[Balla Boy]

"develop a system of street charging points "





Electric vehicles will never work while the infrastructure is still planned like a petrol station.


One universal battery format that you pay an annual rental on. When it's running low, you pull into some filling station equivalent and swap it for a charged one.


Only way forward. People won't stand there waiting for their cars to charge so they can drive them.

I don't see that establishing a network of "street charging points" will be feasible - given the length of time it takes to recharge a battery, it would probably make more sense to have a "battery exchange" network set up, whereby you could change the battery for a pre-charged one in a similar amount of time to what it takes to fill a tank of conventional fuel. That could probably make use of existing infrastructure as well cos it should really only be an off-the-shelf swap. All it needs is for the batteries in these cars to be made accessible and easily changed. If every filling station had a wind-turbine or two for charging the batteries, it could be a pretty much zero emission solution.

Battery exchange could be a good idea but the logistics involved would have a lot of complexity. First of all you would need a massive premises, large ventilated and temperature controlled charging facilty, large finished goods pick up point, a pretty robust battery inspection process for safety purposes and the list goes on.

Can't be much more onerous than shipping and storing large quantities of highly flammable liquids, can it?


I'd probably see the petrol sales divisions taking it up directly - intially piece by piece with petrol and batteries available side by side until the latter replaced the former.

“It will help us reduce our dependence on fossil fuels, improve energy security and lower our transport emissions.”</span>

I cant see how, most of our power stations which generate electricity are coal, gas and turf fired. Effectively what you would be doing is transferring emissions from the exhaust pipe to the power station chimney. Also more generation capacity will be required if a sizable shift were to occur.

We're talking about using renewable energy to provide the power, rather than the coal, peat and gas-fired power stations you mention. Hence, there would actually be a massive reduction in emissions. Furthermore, it'll make small scale local renewables much more economically feasible.

Renewable energy, solar panels?

potentially, although the cost per kilowatt are still excessively high. That could all change as a mainstream demand comes online.


What's more likely is that there will be a switch to small local renewable generating stations - wind farms, biomass plant, energy from waste incineration, etc. In some cases, householders will have the wherewithal to generate their own electricity. At the moment small-scale wind power does not work out too well cost-wise, but the economics of energy is likely to change drastically over the next 10 - 15 years.

[Balla Boy]

BB,


As someone who seems to be weel up on these issues, what are the carbon emission implications of an en masse and high speed move to renewables over the next few years?


I've been reading arguments that the up front manufacturing intensity required to get us up to speed might tip us over the edge and that drastic cuts in consumption will be needed to get us through the transition without a massive spike in emissions.


Any views?

[jmccoy]

“It will help us reduce our dependence on fossil fuels, improve energy security and lower our transport emissions.”</span>

I cant see how, most of our power stations which generate electricity are coal, gas and turf fired. Effectively what you would be doing is transferring emissions from the exhaust pipe to the power station chimney. Also more generation capacity will be required if a sizable shift were to occur.

We're talking about using renewable energy to provide the power, rather than the coal, peat and gas-fired power stations you mention. Hence, there would actually be a massive reduction in emissions. Furthermore, it'll make small scale local renewables much more economically feasible.

Renewable energy, solar panels?

potentially, although the cost per kilowatt are still excessively high. That could all change as a mainstream demand comes online.


What's more likely is that there will be a switch to small local renewable generating stations - wind farms, biomass plant, energy from waste incineration, etc. In some cases, householders will have the wherewithal to generate their own electricity</span>. At the moment small-scale wind power does not work out too well cost-wise, but the economics of energy is likely to change drastically over the next 10 - 15 years.

Now that is something I am interested in and back 100%. There is a family down in Clareview that have a wind turbine fitted on their house. It looks daft but I bet they are saving a bit as well as doing their bit for the environment. My own parents have solar panels which provide the heating on one of the houses they own, they even got a goverment grant when they did that.

[McCloud]

Currently looking at solar panels and a wind generator as well. One of the problems with using a wind generator is the storage of power generated.

[Hugged Rugger]

how do you get a grant for solar panels and any rough figures on cost?

[McCloud]

Here

how do you get a grant for solar panels and any rough figures on cost?

grants are given out by Sustainable Energy Ireland (SEI). You'll get 300 euro for each square metre of panel on an existing house. Chances are that you'll have 2 or 4 square metres. The whole installation should cost you €5,000 - 6,000.

Currently looking at solar panels and a wind generator as well. One of the problems with using a wind generator is the storage of power generated.

costs are very high still, McCloud. You're looking at 20 year payback based on current prices. What fuel do you use for heating by the way?

[sparks]

Will you still have to pay the levy for parking in work?

[McCloud]

Currently looking at solar panels and a wind generator as well. One of the problems with using a wind generator is the storage of power generated.

costs are very high still, McCloud. You're looking at 20 year payback based on current prices. What fuel do you use for heating by the way?

Mix, have an oil burner and an aga plumed into the heating thatburns peat and wood.

BB,


As someone who seems to be weel up on these issues, what are the carbon emission implications of an en masse and high speed move to renewables over the next few years?


I've been reading arguments that the up front manufacturing intensity required to get us up to speed might tip us over the edge and that drastic cuts in consumption will be needed to get us through the transition without a massive spike in emissions.


Any views?

short answer is that i don't know. I've heard those arguments as well but haven't seen anything too convincing. Have you any links to what you've read? I'd be amazed if the manufacturing intensity required to switch to renewables would cause a massive spike in carbon emissions. But even if it does, it may be a spike we can live with??

[Balla Boy]

BB,


As someone who seems to be weel up on these issues, what are the carbon emission implications of an en masse and high speed move to renewables over the next few years?


I've been reading arguments that the up front manufacturing intensity required to get us up to speed might tip us over the edge and that drastic cuts in consumption will be needed to get us through the transition without a massive spike in emissions.


Any views?

short answer is that i don't know. I've heard those arguments as well but haven't seen anything too convincing. Have you any links to what you've read? I'd be amazed if the manufacturing intensity required to switch to renewables would cause a massive spike in carbon emissions. But even if it does, it may be a spike we can live with??

Monbiot mentioned this woman, Sharon Astyk, in his last article and she's blogged a reply here:


http://sharonastyk.com/


She is set on the notion (and I think it's a valid one) that seeking an alternative source for our current energy needs is ultimately a wild goose chase and that radical reductions in use are inevitable.

[El Corvo]

Best and most exciting article I have read on this topic ever is below. Gave me more confidence for the future. This guy proposes the mobile phone payment plan for these cars but he explains it better!


http://www.wired.com/cars/futuretran...zine/16-09/ff_ agassi?currentPage=1


Cannot recommend Wired magazine enough. Makes it simple enough for people like me to understand.

[themick171]

I personally think that within 10 years that we might be a bit higher,
although many cars won't be solely electric, will be hybrids. Although
I suppose there will be many older cars.

As for electricity generation I have believed that nuclear is the
solution. I said this 10 years ago, but no one would listen. There are
some other things that need to be done to make cars more efficient
such as the kinetic energy storage devices.

There is one fundamental assumption held by all those who believe
that post oil we will not have energy, that I believe is false, and that
is the burning of carbon energy sources and the internal combustion
engine are the pinnacle of mans achievement when it comes to
obtaining energy.

Historically if one looks at mankind we have only used oil, coal and
gas as a major fuel sources for 200-300 years. we are probably
close to peak oil, or we may have past it, although if oil prices were
to stay at present levels then we probably aren't there.

[Balla Boy]

I personally think that within 10 years that we might be a bit higher,
although many cars won't be solely electric, will be hybrids. Although
I suppose there will be many older cars.

As for electricity generation I have believed that nuclear is the
solution. I said this 10 years ago, but no one would listen. There are
some other things that need to be done to make cars more efficient
such as the kinetic energy storage devices.

There is one fundamental assumption held by all those who believe
that post oil we will not have energy, that I believe is false, and that
is the burning of carbon energy sources and the internal combustion
engine are the pinnacle of mans achievement when it comes to
obtaining energy.

Historically if one looks at mankind we have only used oil, coal and
gas as a major fuel sources for 200-300 years. we are probably
close to peak oil, or we may have past it, although if oil prices were
to stay at present levels then we probably aren't there.

But it takes years to build a nuclear power station. And we don't have enough engineers to build enough of them in the time available.

[fitzy73]

Imagine trying to build a neuclear power station in Ireland? Every NIMBY in the country would be out in force!


It's bad enough trying to get a jetty built in Tarbert. [img]smileys/lol.gif[/img]

[McCloud]

I personally think that within 10 years that we might be a bit higher,
although many cars won't be solely electric, will be hybrids. Although
I suppose there will be many older cars.

As for electricity generation I have believed that nuclear is the
solution. I said this 10 years ago, but no one would listen. There are
some other things that need to be done to make cars more efficient
such as the kinetic energy storage devices.

There is one fundamental assumption held by all those who believe
that post oil we will not have energy, that I believe is false, and that
is the burning of carbon energy sources and the internal combustion
engine are the pinnacle of mans achievement when it comes to
obtaining energy.

Historically if one looks at mankind we have only used oil, coal and
gas as a major fuel sources for 200-300 years. we are probably
close to peak oil, or we may have past it, although if oil prices were
to stay at present levels then we probably aren't there.

But it takes years to build a nuclear power station. And we don't have enough engineers to build enough of them in the time available.

Plus there is the minor matter that we would need a referendum to allow the building of a nuclear power plant.


Can feel another tripo to Carnsore Point comming on.


Wooooooooooowwwwwwwww those were the days[img]smileys/thumb-up.gif[/img]