The Munster identity!!!

This following comment from T78 in response to one of my post`s on another thread got me thinking:

"I'd agree on the "running as a business" bit. However, where we would differ is the view that cash is all, and that links with the supporters and your own area are to be regarded as entirely secondary to the business. Down that road lie the travails that are currently hitting the Blues, Ospreys and Dragons in various degrees. The Turks, by contrast, have identified themselves with their region and try to grow their own, and it's paying off for them and Wales."


Is this actually true? Are Munster really loosing the connection with it`s people and it`s identity? It`s a concern being expressed by alot of people on this site (not just T78) which is why and because ive feck all else to do i decided to do abit of research and find out.

I`m gonna take 3 match day squads. One from the 06 HC final, The 08 HC final and the recent HC pool game against Northampton.


06 HC FINAL SQUAD
Munster starting XV: S Payne, A Horgan, J Kelly, T Halstead, I Dowling, R O'Gara, P Stringer, M Horan, J Flannery, J Hayes, D O'Callaghan, P O'Connell, D Leamy, D Wallace, A Foley (captain).
Replacements: D Fogarty, F Pucciariello, M O'Driscoll, A Quinlan, T O'Leary, J Manning, R Henderson.

08 HC FINAL SQUAD
Munster: D Hurley; D Howlett, L Mafi, R Tipoki, I Dowling; R O'Gara, T O'Leary; M Horan, J Flannery, J Hayes; D O'Callaghan, P O'Connell (capt); A Quinlan, D Wallace, D Leamy.Replacements: F Sheahan, T Buckley, M O'Driscoll, D Ryan, P Stringer, P Warwick, K Earls.

12 HC POOL GAME

Munster: D Hurley; J Murphy, K Earls, L Mafi, S Zebo; R O'Gara, C Murray; W du Preez, D Varley, BJ Botha; Donncha O'Callaghan, P O'Connell capt; D Ryan, P O'Mahony, J Coughlan. Replacements: D Fogarty, M Horan, S Archer, M O'Driscoll, Dave O'Callaghan, T O'Leary, I Keatley, D Barnes.

06 Team-- 82% (18/22) Irish-- 73% (16/22) Munster Home Grown

08 Team-- 82% (18/22) Irish-- 77% (17/22) Munster Home Grown

12 Team-- 87% (20/23) Irish-- 78% (18/23) Munster Home Grown


(I`m counting Denis Hurley and Danny Barnes as Munster because they are, non of this ohhhh Danny was born in.... bla bla bla)




So going on this evidence things are actually getting better on a producing home grown Munster players basis, not worse. Obviously these figures would fluctuate season by season but as long as the figure for Munster players does`nt go dropping into the 60 or even 50 percent bracket (which i doubt would ever happen regardless of the path professional rugby takes in the future) then i dont think we have too much to worry about. Just for s**t`s and giggles (and coz i still have nothing better to do) lets look at a likely Squad for a HC game next season.

13 HC POOL SQUAD?

Munster: F Jones; K Earls, Lula, Downey, S Zebo; R O'Gara, C Murray; W du Preez, D Varley, BJ Botha, D Ryan, P O'Connell capt, P O'Mahony, D Wallace, J Coughlan. Replacements: M Sherry, M Horan, S Archer, I Nagle, D Leamy, D Williams, I Keatley, D Barnes.

This obviously is just a speculative team so please dont go saying such and such is unlikely etc..

The percentage of this team being Irish would be 87% and Munster 74% so again no alarm bells yet.

As someone said on another thread a 100% home grown Munster team would be great but realistically will never happen, Munster in my view, have managed to mix the home grown with the other Irish and the non Irish quite well down the years and there`s no signs of that changing. So to answer my own question NO i dont think we`re loosing touch with our people or our identity. Professionalism in time will obviously put a strain on this but i have faith the "Munsterness" will stay intact and as long as our imports continue to buy into the Munster etho`s like Dougie and Jim Williams have done then we are in a good place imo. And lets not forget it`s us as supporters that add a huge amount to what makes Munster special aswell, we have our part to play too, and as long as we continue to do what we do then i`m confident they`ll continue to do what they do!!

Very good now go to bed .

I don't think it's about player numbers as such. It's about the level of interaction and communication between supporters and the provincial set up. It does seem that while the province has come to see itself as a club, the supporters don't really have the status of members.

The nature of that relationship is at the heart of Cardiff's issues I think.

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Originally Posted by outside inside

Very good now go to bed .

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I`m in New Zealand, its 1pm Sunday here, and while a sunday afternoon nap would be nice i didnt drink near enough last night to warrant it!

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Originally Posted by Balla Boy

I don't think it's about player numbers as such. It's about the level of interaction and communication between supporters and the provincial set up. It does seem that while the province has come to see itself as a club, the supporters don't really have the status of members.

The nature of that relationship is at the heart of Cardiff's issues I think.

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Yeah thats true but is it possible to keep that connection between the team and the supporters, like of old, with the continuous advancement of professionalism in the game???? I do worry myself with the ever increasing money and stardom status creeping into rugby with guys like SBW, that the game is slowly heading towards the way of soccer, although i doubt (hope) it will never get that bad.

The only thing I would say on using the Northampton game is that Jones/Howlett who would have been starters but for injury weren't included and that would drop the Munster bred players down to under 70%

I think there was something very unique with the Munster teams in the early part of the last decade because many of those players we knew personally from the AIL league games and the huge support that Those games regularlygot in the mid to late 90's. Players like Quinny, ROG, Gallaimh, Langford, Axel, so on, we knew them personally form their exploits for the local parish Clubs so the migration to Munster for both players and followers was a very easy one, there was a genuine link between both.

That very unique link between player and supporter is all but extinct now - young players are channeled directly into the Academy structure from school, the AIL has suffered to find a significance (or the IRFU have failed to develop it) in this 'new era' of professionalism and the supporter has, naturally, stuck with the Big Game days and Big Name stars - I'm not saying its a bad thing as such, it's just the way it is.

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Originally Posted by Hakaman

I think there was something very unique with the Munster teams in the early part of the last decade because many of those players we knew personally from the AIL league games and the huge support that Those games regularlygot in the mid to late 90's. Players like Quinny, ROG, Gallaimh, Langford, Axel, so on, we knew them personally form their exploits for the local parish Clubs so the migration to Munster for both players and followers was a very easy one, there was a genuine link between both.

That very unique link between player and supporter is all but extinct now - young players are channeled directly into the Academy structure from school, the AIL has suffered to find a significance (or the IRFU have failed to develop it) in this 'new era' of professionalism and the supporter has, naturally, stuck with the Big Game days and Big Name stars - I'm not saying its a bad thing as such, it's just the way it is.

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'nuff said

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Originally Posted by Aussiedub

The only thing I would say on using the Northampton game is that Jones/Howlett who would have been starters but for injury weren't included and that would drop the Munster bred players down to under 70%

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I know I shouldn't buuuuut.....

People in glass houses.

Glasgow v Leinster: Irish/Irish qualified - 18/20 from 23 (Isa, Van der Merwe, White/Boss and Ruddock), Leinster 14/23 (Cronin, Ross, Reddan, Nacewa, Boss, Ruddock, Browne, White, Van der Merwe).

And that's with Strauss, Sykes, Auva'a and Berquist not in the 23. :rolleyes:

Ulster vs Colomiers, ERC Final 1999, 22/ 22 Irish.

Bring back the good old days!

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Originally Posted by BOK

Are Munster really loosing the connection with it`s people and it`s identity?

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No

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Originally Posted by BOK

This following comment from T78 in response to one of my post`s on another thread got me thinking:

"I'd agree on the "running as a business" bit. However, where we would differ is the view that cash is all, and that links with the supporters and your own area are to be regarded as entirely secondary to the business. Down that road lie the travails that are currently hitting the Blues, Ospreys and Dragons in various degrees. The Turks, by contrast, have identified themselves with their region and try to grow their own, and it's paying off for them and Wales."


Is this actually true? Are Munster really loosing the connection with it`s people and it`s identity? It`s a concern being expressed by alot of people on this site (not just T78) which is why and because ive feck all else to do i decided to do abit of research and find out.

I`m gonna take 3 match day squads. One from the 06 HC final, The 08 HC final and the recent HC pool game against Northampton.


06 HC FINAL SQUAD
Munster starting XV: S Payne, A Horgan, J Kelly, T Halstead, I Dowling, R O'Gara, P Stringer, M Horan, J Flannery, J Hayes, D O'Callaghan, P O'Connell, D Leamy, D Wallace, A Foley (captain).
Replacements: D Fogarty, F Pucciariello, M O'Driscoll, A Quinlan, T O'Leary, J Manning, R Henderson.

08 HC FINAL SQUAD
Munster: D Hurley; D Howlett, L Mafi, R Tipoki, I Dowling; R O'Gara, T O'Leary; M Horan, J Flannery, J Hayes; D O'Callaghan, P O'Connell (capt); A Quinlan, D Wallace, D Leamy.Replacements: F Sheahan, T Buckley, M O'Driscoll, D Ryan, P Stringer, P Warwick, K Earls.

12 HC POOL GAME

Munster: D Hurley; J Murphy, K Earls, L Mafi, S Zebo; R O'Gara, C Murray; W du Preez, D Varley, BJ Botha; Donncha O'Callaghan, P O'Connell capt; D Ryan, P O'Mahony, J Coughlan. Replacements: D Fogarty, M Horan, S Archer, M O'Driscoll, Dave O'Callaghan, T O'Leary, I Keatley, D Barnes.

06 Team-- 82% (18/22) Irish-- 73% (16/22) Munster Home Grown

08 Team-- 82% (18/22) Irish-- 77% (17/22) Munster Home Grown

12 Team-- 87% (20/23) Irish-- 78% (18/23) Munster Home Grown


(I`m counting Denis Hurley and Danny Barnes as Munster because they are, non of this ohhhh Danny was born in.... bla bla bla)




So going on this evidence things are actually getting better on a producing home grown Munster players basis, not worse. Obviously these figures would fluctuate season by season but as long as the figure for Munster players does`nt go dropping into the 60 or even 50 percent bracket (which i doubt would ever happen regardless of the path professional rugby takes in the future) then i dont think we have too much to worry about. Just for s**t`s and giggles (and coz i still have nothing better to do) lets look at a likely Squad for a HC game next season.

13 HC POOL SQUAD?

Munster: F Jones; K Earls, Lula, Downey, S Zebo; R O'Gara, C Murray; W du Preez, D Varley, BJ Botha, D Ryan, P O'Connell capt, P O'Mahony, D Wallace, J Coughlan. Replacements: M Sherry, M Horan, S Archer, I Nagle, D Leamy, D Williams, I Keatley, D Barnes.

This obviously is just a speculative team so please dont go saying such and such is unlikely etc..

The percentage of this team being Irish would be 87% and Munster 74% so again no alarm bells yet.

As someone said on another thread a 100% home grown Munster team would be great but realistically will never happen, Munster in my view, have managed to mix the home grown with the other Irish and the non Irish quite well down the years and there`s no signs of that changing. So to answer my own question NO i dont think we`re loosing touch with our people or our identity. Professionalism in time will obviously put a strain on this but i have faith the "Munsterness" will stay intact and as long as our imports continue to buy into the Munster etho`s like Dougie and Jim Williams have done then we are in a good place imo. And lets not forget it`s us as supporters that add a huge amount to what makes Munster special aswell, we have our part to play too, and as long as we continue to do what we do then i`m confident they`ll continue to do what they do!!

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Interesting post, I think the greatest difference is what Hakaman refered to, you knew a lot more about where the players were coming from before, now it's Academy and Munster A etc, which is professional but for me, give me a player like Sherry who'll catch the red-eye back from an Ireland A camp to play for Garryowen etc anyday. The AIL has to work out a proper system where it co-exists with the B&I.

Some people on here say we overrate Murray because he comes from Limerick, I disagree, he's rated because he's a guy who's been very good in the AIL since he left school, same with Zebo. If a guy is standing out in the AIL at the age of 18 or 19, of course he'll come to people's attention.

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Originally Posted by JoeyFantastic

Some people on here say we overrate Murray because he comes from Limerick, I disagree, he's rated because he's a guy who's been very good in the AIL since he left school, same with Zebo. If a guy is standing out in the AIL at the age of 18 or 19, of course he'll come to people's attention.

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Exactly.

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Originally Posted by Aussiedub

The only thing I would say on using the Northampton game is that Jones/Howlett who would have been starters but for injury weren't included and that would drop the Munster bred players down to under 70%

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with you, I like to bite every 4 months......

so can you and every leinster fan that hates Cronin, Ross, Reddan, Nacewa, Boss, Ruddock, Browne, White, Van der Merwe, Strauss, Sykes, Auva'a FCUK off.....


that felt good.....

ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooopsppsps pspspssssssssssss

(i might be banned for this)....

I'm delighted that the AIL hasn't completely died off. It's great encouragement for the club players coming through to see that their efforts are indeed being noticed and rewarded. And this includes Leinster aswell as Munster. It may not gather crowds of 10k like the good old days but that's to be expected. Below are a list of players I remember seeing in the past few years being rewarded for AIL performances.

Mike Sherry - Garryowen
Conor Murray - Garryowen
Danny Barnes - Dolphin
James Coughlan - Dolphin
Ivan Dineen - Cork Con
Ian Nagle - Cork Con
Peter O'Mahoney - Cork Con
Simon Zebo - Cork Con
Leo Auva'a - Old Belvedere
Mark Flanagan - UCD
John Cooney - Lansdowne
Dave Kearney - Lansdowne
Aaron Dundon - Clontarf
Ian Madigan - Blackrock
Eoin O'Malley - Old Belvedere

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Originally Posted by i_like_cake

with you, I like to bite every 4 months......

so can you and every leinster fan that hates Cronin, Ross, Reddan, Nacewa, Boss, Ruddock, Browne, White, Van der Merwe, Strauss, Sykes, Auva'a FCUK off.....


that felt good.....

also Aussiedub, do you ********** into your own mouth...

(i might be banned for this)....

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I've no problem with where any player is from that plays for Leinster who puts their heart into it....the same way I've no problem with Jones/Keatley or any non-munster player who plays for Munster....If guys can't get a game at their own province and play for another one it's all good from an Irish perspective....

My only point was in relation to BOK saying that if it went down into the 60's or 50's percentage wise it could be a problem and I was saying if you picked their first team it would be in the 60's percentage wise and highlighting that that wasn't a problem.

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Originally Posted by Aussiedub

I've no problem with where any player is from that plays for Leinster who puts their heart into it....the same way I've no problem with Jones/Keatley or any non-munster player who plays for Munster....If guys can't get a game at their own province and play for another one it's all good from an Irish perspective....

My only point was in relation to BOK saying that if it went down into the 60's or 50's percentage wise it could be a problem and I was saying if you picked their first team it would be in the 60's percentage wise and highlighting that that wasn't a problem.

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As i said in my original post the percentages will obviously fluctuate season to season but i think if the figure over time started creeping down to a point where in say 10 years you were looking at an only 40 or 50 percent home grown representative in the team on a regular basis then that would be a problem. This goes for any of the provinces, i think its vital for each of the provinces to keep their own identity to a certain degree to keep whats great about Irish provincial rugby intact. What makes the Munster Leinster rivalry so great is that the majority of both teams are home grown, if you take that away then we`re into soccer territory where it`s just the supporters that keep the rivalry going cause the pride of the players representing where they come from would be gone and that would be an awfull shame. The whole GAA, i`m representing my parish, type mentality would be gone and it would be just about the players doing their job, getting paid and going home. Maybe thats just the way it`s eventually going to go because of professionalism and all that but we should still try and preserve the home grown identity of each of the provinces for as long as possible imo, cause once it`s gone there`s no getting it back!

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Originally Posted by Aussiedub

The only thing I would say on using the Northampton game is that Jones/Howlett who would have been starters but for injury weren't included and that would drop the Munster bred players down to under 70%

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They weren't and it didn't.

I have to say, I have PM'd Aussiedub to apologize, i had no right/reason/sense to say what I did..............



what was this thread about..??

I have to say that I think that this is a very good tread and good to see the topic being treated seriously. I dont think that it is just whether you come from Munster or not that is important but whether you have the Munster Spirit. Thats why weve brought some players from outside and theyve never fitted in while others have truly shone. I used Jim Williams as an example of this in another tread and I think that he is an excellent example of what I mean. He came here for two seasons and had every intention of leaving after that but he ended up staying for about six seasons and then moving into coaching as well. I doubt if there is one person on this website who would say that he wasnt pure Munster and hes more Munster than a lot of people who are born in the province. I think that it is this spirit that has separated us from the rest of the teams in the northern hemisphere. It was shown perfectly and I know Im banging on about it but it is a good example of the 41 phases before Ronan OGaras drop goal. No other team would have been able to keep going for so long against all of the odds. Thats the difference when we bring in a player and they intigrate then they learn the Munster way which is much more than about rugby and perform. Others dont learn it and we have to part company. For instance and Im not saying there is any possiblility if we brought in richie mccaw I dont think that he would have the attitude to fit in to a Munster team. Nothing wrong with him as a player but hes not our type of player. This I think is the difference. Places like Ulster and Leinster buy in players as mercenaries and dont have a core spirit of their own. This is why they envy us so much. It probably reflects their history and the fact that they are much more closely tied to Britain than Ireland and really look in that direction rather than home. Its impossible to say what the spirit is but you can feel it when it is there and that is what we need to preserve at all costs!

there is a youngfella that goes to my sons school who picks arguements out of the blue with most of the other kids. he did'nt have the cop-on to realise that the other kids did'nt want to talk to him. he could'nt take the message nicely so he started getting into fights and having the sh** kicked out of him and suspension for all ensued. it came to the point where the principal spoke with his parents who were flabbergasted but the only explanation they gave was that they had recently moved from Australia to Dublin and was finding it hard to make friends. all the other kids reckon he should be expelled from the school but the mods sorry principal prefers to leave him in school like a kind of exotic school pet..... :rolleyes:
sorry what was the thread about ?

I think that your point is right. There are people who move to a new place and find it hard maybe impossible to fit in. That was what I was saying about the Munster identity - its the spirit and its very hard to know if someone is going to fit in before they move but it is the one thing that makes us better than the rest.

Just gonna quote the great John Dillon, Steve Cash and the Ozark Mountain Daredevils:

we're just Southern boys, raising hell right now
we're just Southern boys, doing well right now

P.S. Apologies to the Southern gals but you just KNOW that you are included as Southern Boys (honorary).

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Originally Posted by fullmumhan

I have to say that I think that this is a very good tread and good to see the topic being treated seriously. I dont think that it is just whether you come from Munster or not that is important but whether you have the Munster Spirit. Thats why weve brought some players from outside and theyve never fitted in while others have truly shone. I used Jim Williams as an example of this in another tread and I think that he is an excellent example of what I mean. He came here for two seasons and had every intention of leaving after that but he ended up staying for about six seasons and then moving into coaching as well. I doubt if there is one person on this website who would say that he wasnt pure Munster and hes more Munster than a lot of people who are born in the province. I think that it is this spirit that has separated us from the rest of the teams in the northern hemisphere. It was shown perfectly and I know Im banging on about it but it is a good example of the 41 phases before Ronan OGaras drop goal. No other team would have been able to keep going for so long against all of the odds. Thats the difference when we bring in a player and they intigrate then they learn the Munster way which is much more than about rugby and perform. Others dont learn it and we have to part company. For instance and Im not saying there is any possiblility if we brought in richie mccaw I dont think that he would have the attitude to fit in to a Munster team. Nothing wrong with him as a player but hes not our type of player. This I think is the difference. Places like Ulster and Leinster buy in players as mercenaries and dont have a core spirit of their own. This is why they envy us so much. It probably reflects their history and the fact that they are much more closely tied to Britain than Ireland and really look in that direction rather than home. Its impossible to say what the spirit is but you can feel it when it is there and that is what we need to preserve at all costs!

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Seriously I have not ever read such bull **** ever on this forum before tonight.

Sorry but I for one would be dancing in the streets if a certain Richie McCaw was a Munster signing

[QUOTE=fullmumhan;1023974]I have to say that I think that this is a very good tread and good to see the topic being treated seriously. I dont think that it is just whether you come from Munster or not that is important but whether you have the Munster Spirit. Thats why weve brought some players from outside and theyve never fitted in while others have truly shone. I used Jim Williams as an example of this in another tread and I think that he is an excellent example of what I mean. He came here for two seasons and had every intention of leaving after that but he ended up staying for about six seasons and then moving into coaching as well. I doubt if there is one person on this website who would say that he wasnt pure Munster and hes more Munster than a lot of people who are born in the province. I think that it is this spirit that has separated us from the rest of the teams in the northern hemisphere. It was shown perfectly and I know Im banging on about it but it is a good example of the 41 phases before Ronan OGaras drop goal. No other team would have been able to keep going for so long against all of the odds. Thats the difference when we bring in a player and they intigrate then they learn the Munster way which is much more than about rugby and perform. Others dont learn it and we have to part company. For instance and Im not saying there is any possiblility if we brought in richie mccaw I dont think that he would have the attitude to fit in to a Munster team. Nothing wrong with him as a player but hes not our type of player. This I think is the difference. Places like Ulster and Leinster buy in players as mercenaries and dont have a core spirit of their own. This is why they envy us so much. It probably reflects their history and the fact that they are much more closely tied to Britain than Ireland and really look in that direction rather than home. Its impossible to say what the spirit is but you can feel it when it is there and that is what we need to preserve at all costs![/QUO

sweet mercyfull God, are they all here now

Agree with McCloud - fullmumham, you were doing nicely around the start but went over the ledge about half way down with the ROG part (no other team could have done the 41 phases????) and the end was just plain sh**e to be honest buddy.

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Originally Posted by Hakaman

Agree with McCloud - fullmumham, you were doing nicely around the start but went over the ledge about half way down with the ROG part (no other team could have done the 41 phases????) and the end was just plain sh**e to be honest buddy.

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I dont know of any team that has won a match after following 41 phases in extra time with a drop goal. I look forward to seeing your long list of the same or similar ones in the professional game that is.

Munster's identification with the fans is still good, so far as I can see, as is the players' identification with the Munster 'spirit'. Maybe different with HEC games, but certainly at the Celtic league games I've been to in both Cork and Limerick the players for the most part have been very welcoming and accommodating in spending time with fans afterwards, having a quick chat, signing autographs etc. I was happily finishing a pint in Musgrave at the start of this season and Paulie must have spent an hour after the match posing with kids in his bare feet. Some players of course will be a little more distant because of whatever psychological stuff they have to do after games but I've never seen them to be rude to fans as I hear some soccer players are. It's still a good symbiotic relationship.

Regarding the players, professionalism is bound to change the way pride and passion for the team is developed, but I think on the whole most players would respect the jersey and the traditions and indeed buy into them. ROG said it best when he said he wasn't a rugby player, but a Munster Rugby player. The Ireland camp had a long discussion on it a few years back saying that the Munster lads gave more for the red jersey than the green, but this isn't necessarily just because they are from the region. Doug Howlett was quoted as saying that his experiences with the New Zealand team were wonderful, but that the feeling of the HEC final in 2008 was really special. He is not from Munster (so far as I am aware) so the feeling has been fostered by the environment, from training and playing with players who feel pride and integrity for the jersey.

I think things will only begin to really significantly change for the worse when we doubt that the relationship exists and is special between the fans and players, and players and ethos. If we as fans go to matches with doubt in our minds about how much a player really cares about the jersey over the paycheque, will we shout as loud, will we give our all for the team however we can as spectators, will we feel the same passion? If we don't then the team will not feed on the '16th man' factor, and matches will become business-like working days. No doubts, Munsterfans, just continued raw passion and pride and manic supporters aggression when needs must. The team will feel it, and give it right back to the other team like a brick to the balls.

Final point - not getting into the debate about players not being from provinces and how many players are home grown etc, but just because players are not from Munster (Howlett for instance) does not mean they are not fully of Munster, having been baptised in the red fires of the cathedral that is Thomond Park. Now I'll stop before I really begin waxing lyrical...