Why the 'premier' English clubs are failing to live up to their billing in Europe.

[the plastic paddy]

Be warned, this article might raise blood pressure!!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/9029861/Why-the-premier-English-clubs-are-failing-to-live-up-to-their-billing-in-Europe.html

Typical English self interest, can't see that the Italian clubs playing HEC is raising there standard as quickly as possible. Just coz their league is sh*te and full of second rate imports doesn't mean the rest of the world has to be mediocre.

[Dowlinz]

yawn same in every sport and aspects of politics, its a signature of the English. A nation increasingly clambering to explain its descent into irrelevancy.

[the plastic paddy]

yawn same in every sport and aspects of politics, its a signature of the English. A nation increasingly clambering to explain its descent into irrelevancy.Well put.

[bigron]

Anyone watching the Sarries v treviso match. Some shocking refereeing decisions doing his best to keep the last english club in the competition. Refs have to learn to police the scrums.

[the plastic paddy]

Anyone watching the Sarries v treviso match. Some shocking refereeing decisions doing his best to keep the last english club in the competition. Refs have to learn to police the scrums.Demonstrates what horse sh*t Ackford is talking.

[Red Hand Hero]

Hillarious stuff, so what say he about the absolute beastings that have been handed out to these Anglo-powerhouses by the upstarts from an inferior league? Leinster hammered Bath comfortably both home and away, Munster and Ulster put in record-breaking performances against Northampton and Leicester over the past two weekends and Sarries have just scraped past Treviso.

It is these sorts of bleatings that really make it important for the Celtic sides to perform when up against the English and French sides.

[spud686]

Don't forget Harlequins couldn't deal with Connacht in Galway!

[Cougar Moon]

Anyone watching the Sarries v treviso match. Some shocking refereeing decisions doing his best to keep the last english club in the competition. Refs have to learn to police the scrums.I saw the game. I think for me the overwhelming feeling was one of sadness. We live in a world where justice does not fit too easily within. Did it ever?

[Treaty Stone]

Yes But.. do Aironi really deserve their place at the top table just yet. Does he also have a point in that we have more freedom to rest / blood players. Obviously the tone of his article doesn't do him ant favours

[lactose intolerant]

He talks about the weak teams from the rabodirect pro 12.....but then speaks about the "Scottish" and "Italian" teams when proving his point, totally ignoring 2/3 of the league!!
Also, if the English sides are being forced to play the dregs of the pro 12 in the HEC, why the hell can only 1 of 7 manage to get out of their groups?

[Point]

Yes But.. do Aironi really deserve their place at the top table just yet. Does he also have a point in that we have more freedom to rest / blood players. Obviously the tone of his article doesn't do him ant favours

2 points on that

1. This is the first season of Italian regional rugby, Treviso have started well and that will drive Aironi on to match them. Give them time.

2. The English have a different system to us, that's their choice. Their system flogs their players, perhaps they should change...

[BOK]

I`m sorry but i think he`s 100% right. Ok he`s tone makes him come across as a p***K but i have to agree with what he says. If it is to be a fair system then 8 from each league has to be the way to go. He`s also right in saying that most of the pro 12 teams dont have to worry about qualifying for HC which means we can rest players more regularly and the ``lesser`` teams dont have to worry about putting too much of a push on in the pro12 as they know they can partake in the HC regardless of their finishing position. To be fair if the boot was on the other foot we`d be giving out stink about it too.

HOWEVER if it were to go to an 8 from each league format i genuinely believe the dominance of the pro12 teams in the HC would only get greater. Teams like Munster, leinster and Ulster have big squads and the chances of one of these teams finishing outside the top 8 would be slim so it would have little effect on us anyway, while knowing they have to qualify would push the lesser teams to improve and enhance their squads which would make the pro12 more competitive and a better breeding ground for developing young players which would benifit all the countries partaking in the pro12. The English teams are not poorer off in the HC because of the current system, they`re are just poorer in general and it would take more than an overhaul of the HC format to correct their problems, but to go to an 8 from each country format like he suggests i think would not only be fairer but also better for the pro12 as a league and for Irish rugby.

As i said i agree with what he`s suggesting but i dont think he realises he`s shooting himself in the foot by suggesting it!!

[Point]

In reality, Munster would always be in the top 8, so in that aspect its nothing to us but this is about building for the future of rugby. Rugby needs the Scots and the Italians to improve and grow. It might be something if English clubs occupied the top 6 positions in the HC, they could then suggest that the next two AP clubs might add something to the competition but they don't. They're lucky to have one so Ackford isn't even whining from a strong position.

[BOK]

In reality, Munster would always be in the top 8, so in that aspect its nothing to us but this is about building for the future of rugby. Rugby needs the Scots and the Italians to improve and grow. It might be something if English clubs occupied the top 6 positions in the HC, they could then suggest that the next two AP clubs might add something to the competition but they don't. They're lucky to have one so Ackford isn't even whining from a strong position.

Is it not better for the Scots and Italians in the long run though to have to fight for their spots in the HC rather than having them handed on a plate to them? If they had to fight tooth and nail in the Pro12 for a spot then they would be doing the more basic aspects of their game better and improving and is that not more benificial to them rather than being thrown in at the deep end in the HC? If they have to earn their place in the HC then they will cherish it knowing they might`nt earn it again next season, but the fact they`ll know they have to earn it if they want to partake next season will keep them striving to improve!

[lactose intolerant]

Is it not better for the Scots and Italians in the long run though to have to fight for their spots in the HC rather than having them handed on a plate to them? If they had to fight tooth and nail in the Pro12 for a spot then they would be doing the more basic aspects of their game better and improving and is that not more benificial to them rather than being thrown in at the deep end in the HC? If they have to earn their place in the HC then they will cherish it knowing they might`nt earn it again next season, but the fact they`ll know they have to earn it if they want to partake next season will keep them striving to improve!

A single word should answer you there....Connacht

[JoeyFantastic]

Is it not better for the Scots and Italians in the long run though to have to fight for their spots in the HC rather than having them handed on a plate to them? If they had to fight tooth and nail in the Pro12 for a spot then they would be doing the more basic aspects of their game better and improving and is that not more benificial to them rather than being thrown in at the deep end in the HC? If they have to earn their place in the HC then they will cherish it knowing they might`nt earn it again next season, but the fact they`ll know they have to earn it if they want to partake next season will keep them striving to improve!

I don't know. As you say, if the English clubs can't beat the weak Pro12 sides already, why does he think a system based on merit would help England.

The clubs hate relegation for obvious reasons but you just can't cut off a top tier from the rest of the league and hope people will go with it.

[BOK]

A single word should answer you there....Connacht

Yeah Connacht got into the HC this season through the help of Leinster winning it last year, not because they had to earn it by finishing in the top 8 of the Pro12. If they had to do so then i believe they would have faired alot better than they did because they would have learnt alot more about themselves in the process of learning how to play the way they would have needed to in order to get the results they would have required to qualify and they would be alot better team now for it!

[BOK]

I don't know. As you say, if the English clubs can't beat the weak Pro12 sides already, why does he think a system based on merit would help England.

The clubs hate relegation for obvious reasons but you just can't cut off a top tier from the rest of the league and hope people will go with it.

Oh defiantly if they tried to impose this there would be uproar but can a person really claim that by forcing the like`s of Aironi or Glasgow etc.. to improve themselves to a degree where they have to earn a top 8 spot to qualify for the HC would`nt be more beneficial to them in the long run than just being handed qualification on a plate?

[lactose intolerant]

Yeah Connacht got into the HC this season through the help of Leinster winning it last year, not because they had to earn it by finishing in the top 8 of the Pro12. If they had to do so then i believe they would have faired alot better than they did because they would have learnt alot more about themselves in the process of learning how to play the way they would have needed to in order to get the results they would have required to qualify and they would be alot better team now for it!

I was more referring to the serious difficulties connacht appear to have in signing players of a certain standard, i assume a significant part of that would be because of the uncertainty about qualifying for the hec!!
its entirely possible that a top 8 would develop in the pro 12, leaving 4 adrift like Munster, ulster andbleinster have done with Connacht

[Point]

Is it not better for the Scots and Italians in the long run though to have to fight for their spots in the HC rather than having them handed on a plate to them? If they had to fight tooth and nail in the Pro12 for a spot then they would be doing the more basic aspects of their game better and improving and is that not more benificial to them rather than being thrown in at the deep end in the HC? If they have to earn their place in the HC then they will cherish it knowing they might`nt earn it again next season, but the fact they`ll know they have to earn it if they want to partake next season will keep them striving to improve!
That would be like putting a hand out to a drowning man while keeping a boot firmly on his head!

The Scots and Italians have had a lot of problems with the structure of their game which will improve in time. If they have to qualify, it could stunt their development, and that is not good for European rugby.

[BOK]

I was more referring to the serious difficulties connacht appear to have in signing players of a certain standard, i assume a significant part of that would be because of the uncertainty about qualifying for the hec!!
its entirely possible that a top 8 would develop in the pro 12, leaving 4 adrift like Munster, ulster andbleinster have done with Connacht

Yeah your right that would be a possibility but you have to thrust in the teams professionalism and desire to improve to hope that that would`nt happen. If you look at france every season you seem to have a new team trying to make a push for inclusion. I think the problems with connacht are alot more deep rooted than simply not having HC rugby every season. Im not sure what the story with connacht and the HC is nxt season but if they are not in it do you really think they are any better off for this years campaign? or would they not be in a better position now if they had to improve to the relevent standard last season to have qualified for it this season had this system been in place?

[BOK]

That would be like putting a hand out to a drowning man while keeping a boot firmly on his head!

The Scots and Italians have had a lot of problems with the structure of their game which will improve in time. If they have to qualify, it could stunt their development, and that is not good for European rugby.

I cant see though how simply having automatic inclusion in the HC is expected to develop a team. You have to learn to walk before you can run and all that. I`m not saying this system would make Aironi or Connacht great teams over night but i def think it would yield results sooner than simply letting tham partake in the HC regardless!


Anyway my argument is prob irrelevant tbh as i cant see this coming into force any time soon if at all.

[Boo-boo]

Poor things. I hear the worlds smallest violin playing somewhere. One year it's the French and then the other year it's the English throwing their toys out of the pram. Man up and swallow the fact that YOU WEREN'T GOOD ENOUGH and even if you get a leg up you still may not be good enough.

[bigchiefally]

I read that article yesterday and I agree it is a case of sour grapes.

I do think though the Celtic League needs to do something to become more important but the English system doesnt seem to be great either.

Hard to know.

[Kingfisher234]

Theres an added point here which I think is relevant - because there are at least 2 Italian clubs auto qualifying this generally means that the 2 best runners up will come from these groups as a result of bonus points scored against the weakest Italian club. Granted this didnt happen this year as Treviso pulled off a couple of results but it was always on the cards that 2 qualifiers would emerge from Aironis group. If it was confined to the best 8 from the 3 leagues it would be a much more even qualifying process in the HC proper.

[ustix]

Bring on the Georgians!

[Dowlinz]

I`m sorry but i think he`s 100% right. Ok he`s tone makes him come across as a p***K but i have to agree with what he says. If it is to be a fair system then 8 from each league has to be the way to go. He`s also right in saying that most of the pro 12 teams dont have to worry about qualifying for HC which means we can rest players more regularly and the ``lesser`` teams dont have to worry about putting too much of a push on in the pro12 as they know they can partake in the HC regardless of their finishing position. To be fair if the boot was on the other foot we`d be giving out stink about it too.

HOWEVER if it were to go to an 8 from each league format i genuinely believe the dominance of the pro12 teams in the HC would only get greater. Teams like Munster, leinster and Ulster have big squads and the chances of one of these teams finishing outside the top 8 would be slim so it would have little effect on us anyway, while knowing they have to qualify would push the lesser teams to improve and enhance their squads which would make the pro12 more competitive and a better breeding ground for developing young players which would benifit all the countries partaking in the pro12. The English teams are not poorer off in the HC because of the current system, they`re are just poorer in general and it would take more than an overhaul of the HC format to correct their problems, but to go to an 8 from each country format like he suggests i think would not only be fairer but also better for the pro12 as a league and for Irish rugby.

As i said i agree with what he`s suggesting but i dont think he realises he`s shooting himself in the foot by suggesting it!!

What would be fair would be to use a ranking system similar to that used for entry to the champions league. With poor European performances reducing the number of entries from that league next season.

Looking at the success rate in qualifying for the knockouts this year.

Rabo 5/11 = 45.45%
Prem 1/7 = 14.28%
Top 2/6 = 33.33%

Proportionally dividing out the 24 slots among the different leagues given those success rates works out as.

Rabo = 12 places
Top 14 = 9 places
Premiership = 3 places

That would be fair representation relative to league performance.

I'm not against qualifying via rabo positioning rather than by country right but this "8 teams per league" business is hugely unfair and would only benefit the weakest league, the premiership.

[Cowboy]

Private ownership of clubs is the English downfall. We, the Walians and the Scots have a hymnsheet in our respective unions and everyone sings off it. The English clubs are single handedly undermining the whole process in trying to outbid each other for players and also cut each others throats to avoid relegation. The club owners realise that its all about their club, and only their club. The national setup is an irritation to them and they usually try to work against it. Unlike here where we have an all powerful eye of Sauron (Deccie) who looks at the entire playing nation and tweaks it to suit his needs, but also power the provinces.

Theres a bigger picture at work in the central system, getting the national side to be really really successful, to make the national side successful we invest in keeping our provincial sides churning out players in weak areas and trying to shore up gaps in the training or conditioning elements, we dont have to flog our players into the ground because Deccie wont allow it. Take a look at Hagan and Archer this weekend, both got a bit of a blooding this weekend and thats great for Ireland. Do you think Lancaster (or whoever is calling the shots in Twickenham) could have told Mallinder to throw on a newbie for a while this weekend past in the national interest?

[scotscor]

Theres an added point here which I think is relevant - because there are at least 2 Italian clubs auto qualifying this generally means that the 2 best runners up will come from these groups as a result of bonus points scored against the weakest Italian club. Granted this didnt happen this year as Treviso pulled off a couple of results but it was always on the cards that 2 qualifiers would emerge from Aironis group. If it was confined to the best 8 from the 3 leagues it would be a much more even qualifying process in the HC proper.
1) this
2) mafi can play for ireland
3) munster can play in killarney
4) new zealnd steal islanders

all crocks of bull.

I looked last year, but in the history of the hec, its more often the case that two teams have come from munsters group than any italian side.
its lazy thinking.

[rathbaner]

1) this
2) mafi can play for ireland
3) munster can play in killarney
4) new zealnd steal islanders

all crocks of bull.

I looked last year, but in the history of the hec, its more often the case that two teams have come from munsters group than any italian side.
its lazy thinking.
Facts will ruin this forum!

[outside inside]

The ERC was founded by all the Unions not just the RFU , so the Italians and the Scots have just as much rights as the English .Furthermore their concern at the standards of the HC ring hollow, the English Premiership has tried to wreck it the past with their boycott , only to have to come back in with their tail between their legs next year .They moan about how the game is not being developed to the fullest extent, then they do not want the Italians or the Scots in the HC it beggars belief .

[munsterforever]

The English have no interest in developing the game outside of England, in fact on the contrary they would rather others fall to their level, they are only interested in English "glory". The stronger the team we play and beat the better the feeling. The bigger the win an English team has over a weak team, from their point of view all the better.

As someone has said, they are becoming an irrelevance

[slipper1]

Ireland's provinces have a player manangement programme in place with the IRFU and much bigger squads with an emphisis on developing homegrown talent, that's why there is a rotation of players. Add in a serious injury list this season and we lose all frontline players for 4 months of the year. Like Scotland, Italy and Wales.

Maybe the English could learn something from it .... ironically Ackford wants more top level games for English Premiership teams in a European Cup for Ireland, France, Scotland, England, Wales and Italy. Perhaps reduce France's quota as it's 50-50 whether some French teams decide to take it seriously ?

[DONC]

Nothing article really, as one of the responses on the piece noted when England was doing well it was because relegation kept them sharp. Now it is the fear of relegation which is the making them play badly total BS

[Red Hand Hero]

The great thing about freedom of speech above censorship is that it exposes the frauds of society (in whatever form they come in) by giving them enough rope to hang themselves. Allowing the BNP on BBC for the last election was a clever move because it exposed them, and their support base, for the clueless xenophobic and rascist morons they are. If they had been stifled or censored there would have been an air of relevance given to them by those that should really know better.

Now I know comparing Ackford's column with the BNP is stretching things a bit but I believe the point holds. Allowing the AP cheerleaders to attempt to denigrate the Rabo with their false statistics, questionable theories and popular misconceptions will only serve to further undermine both their credibility as journalists but also show that the AP has to have a long, hard look at itself. Thats also ignoring how Quins were the Belle's of the ball last year all thanks to the AP's competitiveness but then it was the hard slog of the domestic season that meant Northampton crumbled in the second half against Leinster...I guess they are also writing for their audience who will no doubt lap it up.

As it stands Irish Rugby, even 'Celtic Rugby' has been on the crest of a wave for some time now. As a league we have provided 3-4 of the Quarter-Finalists for the past couple of years and of course the Rabo and ML before that has provided the winners for 4 out of the last 6 years. The league may not be as attritional as the AP or T14 but that does not make it any less 'strong' or 'competitive'. Yes we have Aironi as the whipping boys of the league but the Premiership have Worcester and Newcastle, both of whom would struggle to score in a brothel. You could arguably add Wasps to that, which is a sad statement for a once great club. In France you have the likes of Bordeaux, Lyon etc but of course these teams sometimes manage, or just about manage, not least because of the questionable french atttitude to away games.

Ironically, for me at least, is the fact I really worried about the CL as a vehincle for improving the collective teams in it. The early stages it did struggle for direction, purpose and consistency but over time it has evolved. Squads are bigger, budgets improved and the quality is, generally, decent enough. The league either by design or default has founds its legs and is really improving year on year. Considering we were struggling for a league sponsor only last season things could be on the up for the Rabo sides.

[the plastic paddy]

I would fancy Aironi to give the weaker AP teams plenty to think about. But the whole thing is immaterial anyway, the Italian teams being in the Rabo probably cost the other teams money but it is the right thing to do to fast track the Italian teams and the national team to being competitive and to grow the game of rugby. The English love beating the sh*te out of weak teams and want to maintain that which is a deeply unhealthy aspect of their psyche and would be the reason why the rest of the world is so pleased when they go arse over tit.

[Red Hand Hero]

I would fancy Aironi to give the weaker AP teams plenty to think about. But the whole thing is immaterial anyway, the Italian teams being in the Rabo probably cost the other teams money but it is the right thing to do to fast track the Italian teams and the national team to being competitive and to grow the game of rugby. The English love beating the sh*te out of weak teams and want to maintain that which is a deeply unhealthy aspect of their psyche and would be the reason why the rest of the world is so pleased when they go arse over tit.

A salient point. It;s the sort of thing you see when you coach youngsters-up to even U-18's and 20's or maybe even beyond. There are those players who love thrashing teams and will stand out in such one-sided affairs but when it comes to the crunch and they meet players who are their equal or even better than them they turn into timid mice and it is in fact they that do not have the stomach for the battle.

[the plastic paddy]

A salient point. It;s the sort of thing you see when you coach youngsters-up to even U-18's and 20's or maybe even beyond. There are those players who love thrashing teams and will stand out in such one-sided affairs but when it comes to the crunch and they meet players who are their equal or even better than them they turn into timid mice and it is in fact they that do not have the stomach for the battle.Chabal, Spies, Castro, Ashton, Croft etc!! A cricket phrase I know but flat track bullies!!!

[Jackie Brown]

A salient point. It;s the sort of thing you see when you coach youngsters-up to even U-18's and 20's or maybe even beyond. There are those players who love thrashing teams and will stand out in such one-sided affairs but when it comes to the crunch and they meet players who are their equal or even better than them they turn into timid mice and it is in fact they that do not have the stomach for the battle.


Tom Croft springs to mind... :rolleyes:

[Point]

The English have no interest in developing the game outside of England, in fact on the contrary they would rather others fall to their level, they are only interested in English "glory". The stronger the team we play and beat the better the feeling. The bigger the win an English team has over a weak team, from their point of view all the better.

As someone has said, they are becoming an irrelevance

The English premiership club owners perhaps, but the RFU have been very proactive in sending coaches/gear etc to East European countries when the likes of the IRFU sat on their hands and did nothing.

[munsterforever]

The English premiership club owners perhaps, but the RFU have been very proactive in sending coaches/gear etc to East European countries when the likes of the IRFU sat on their hands and did nothing. excuse my cynicism, as i usually love magnanimity such as this you describe, but if it is true what you say (and i believe you), forgive me for thinking it was done so purely out of self interest.

Sorry point but when youre fed a daily diet of dewi stuey mallinder cockerill johnson andrew and the rest you tend to get stomach ache.

[mac22]

Harlequins dealt with us last year though !

[munsterforever]

Harlequins dealt with us last year though ! its a good job we didnt draw aironi as they probably would have too!

[rathbaner]

It seems the key to success in the AP is, like soccer, getting a rich sugar daddy to buy success overnight.

Because the Irish provinces are not privately owned that kind of cash will never turn up. So the teams have to be built around local talent from the ground up and the the future has to be secured with academies.

To keep your talent you have to be successful. You need to build a collective culture, a collective identity and then bring through the talent while bringing in a few marquee names for the players to judge themselves against and keep the crowds coming.


If Wales or England ever learn this lesson we'll be fcuked.

[nuke]

The ERC was founded by all the Unions not just the RFU , so the Italians and the Scots have just as much rights as the English .Furthermore their concern at the standards of the HC ring hollow, the English Premiership has tried to wreck it the past with their boycott , only to have to come back in with their tail between their legs next year .They moan about how the game is not being developed to the fullest extent, then they do not want the Italians or the Scots in the HC it beggars belief .

Now i could be wrong about this but the ERC is a private commercial company and nothing to do with the unions really.

[Tobyglen]

It's nonsense, our guys get flogged by the national team aswell. Fact is that English rugby has been dreadful for a while now We have beaten them 7/8 times because their players aren't good enough..

[Red Hand Hero]

It's nonsense, our guys get flogged by the national team aswell. Fact is that English rugby has been dreadful for a while now We have beaten them 7/8 times because their players aren't good enough..

Not nearly as hard as the Anlgo's get flogged TG. It may not be an ideal situation from a provincial POV but I think that when domestic and international performances and results are analysed together the Irish model is pretty good. If anything it has delivered more domestic success than international and that is perhaps why Browne and Wigglesworth have got their knickers in such a tight knot.

[Tobyglen]

Not nearly as hard as the Anlgo's get flogged TG. It may not be an ideal situation from a provincial POV but I think that when domestic and international performances and results are analysed together the Irish model is pretty good. If anything it has delivered more domestic success than international and that is perhaps why Browne and Wigglesworth have got their knickers in such a tight knot.
They can pick from 7-8 teams, we basically pick from 3. Munster pack was flogged for years by the Irish side. Their structures are ****, they produce some monsters but their skill levels are poor. They have a similar playing base than SA & far more than France, NZ & OZ yet get nowhere near them in terms of performance. Eventually they will get it right but it's going to be a long road.

[Point]

They can pick from 7-8 teams, we basically pick from 3. Munster pack was flogged for years by the Irish side. Their structures are ****, they produce some monsters but their skill levels are poor. They have a similar playing base than SA & far more than France, NZ & OZ yet get nowhere near them in terms of performance. Eventually they will get it right but it's going to be a long road.

They actually have (and have had for years) fantastic underage structures but it's not translating into the top level, for whatever reason. Maybe the whole AP private ownership is putting pressure on to picking the experienced foreigner rather than the young local....

[treatycity1]

Typical whining poms, what they want is turn it into the anglo french cup so that the finals can be held in either paris or london to boost the clubs coffers to buy in all the imports. Without these imports teams like Aironi would probably beat them. Northamptons best players the wekend were imports.

[Stanley]

They actually have (and have had for years) fantastic underage structures but it's not translating into the top level, for whatever reason. Maybe the whole AP private ownership is putting pressure on to picking the experienced foreigner rather than the young local....


Totally agree, most Leic fans could not give a damn about Eng, their team invariably sinks in the intl players absence, in 5 RWC years Leic have failed 4 times to reach the quarters of the HC.

This year for example, Nth and Leic, have had to put the pedal to the floor to make up for losses during RWC with a target of being in play-off positions before the 6N, both have achieved it but perhaps at the cost of QF places.

[ustix]

Facts will ruin this forum!
So be it. Facts are sacred

[the plastic paddy]

Another Telegraph article on the subject, showing there are a range of views in the English press,
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/club/9033790/Benetton-Treviso-bring-more-to-the-Heineken-Cup-than-great-scenery.html

[mikerob]

Now i could be wrong about this but the ERC is a private commercial company and nothing to do with the unions really.

The ERC is owned by the 6 nations unions and each have an equal shareholding.

However voting rights on the ERC board are roughly based upon the number of teams each country contributes to ERC competitions (currently 44 teams in total). So France and England have more votes than the other countries.

Some unions have delegated their votes to an organisation representing the professional clubs such as the LNR in France and PRL in England. I think France and Italy have delegated all their votes to the clubs, England all but one vote, Wales have delegated one vote but the Irish and Scottish unions hold all the votes to themselves as the clubs aren't separate from the unions.

[outside inside]

Now i could be wrong about this but the ERC is a private commercial company and nothing to do with the unions really.

Nuke HC set up by the old 5 nations then ERC established , each country has two votes the Celtic & Italians represented by their Unions or appointed representatives as far as i know .Hence equal voting rights for Italy and Scotland so English unhappy when Celts/Italians exercise their rights and vote down proposals they do not agree with .

[ustix]

It seems the key to success in the AP is, like soccer, getting a rich sugar daddy to buy success overnight.

Because the Irish provinces are not privately owned that kind of cash will never turn up. So the teams have to be built around local talent from the ground up and the the future has to be secured with academies.


To keep your talent you have to be successful. You need to build a collective culture, a collective identity and then bring through the talent while bringing in a few marquee names for the players to judge themselves against and keep the crowds coming.


If Wales or England ever learn this lesson we'll be fcuked.
I'm more interested in the lessons we might learn from them despite their current standings/achievements. Perhaps we're missing something England, albeit in the past, have brought to the table. I'd love it if we were to win a RWC in England. I'd just love it.

[the plastic paddy]

I'm more interested in the lessons we might learn from them despite their current standings/achievements. Perhaps we're missing something England, albeit in the past, have brought to the table. I'd love it if we were to win a RWC in England. I'd just love it.We will ustix, have faith, we will. Paulie will lift the Webb Ellis trophy in Twickenham in 2015. And before anyone says he will be too old, he won't!!

[Red Hand Hero]

Another Telegraph article on the subject, showing there are a range of views in the English press,
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/club/9033790/Benetton-Treviso-bring-more-to-the-Heineken-Cup-than-great-scenery.html

Bit more balanced alright.

[DONC]

From the Grauniad last week

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2012/jan/16/enlish-irish-contrast-heineken-cup

[fitzy73]

The English bashing, on the back of a great win against NH, is coming from the usual suspects on here. Plus ca change and all that.

I don't agree with Ackford, but only a one eyed man could agrue that we get a huge advantage by being able to rest key players prior to big games.

I'd like to keep the system as is, but add a seeding system, which would determine the HEC group you are in the next year.

[DONC]

The English bashing, on the back of a great win against NH, is coming from the usual suspects on here. Plus ca change and all that.

I don't agree with Ackford, but only a one eyed man could agrue that we get a huge advantage by being able to rest key players prior to big games.

I'd like to keep the system as is, but add a seeding system, which would determine the HEC group you are in the next year.

I thought there was a seeding system.

[the plastic paddy]

The English bashing, on the back of a great win against NH, is coming from the usual suspects on here. Plus ca change and all that.

I don't agree with Ackford, but only a one eyed man could agrue that we get a huge advantage by being able to rest key players prior to big games.

I'd like to keep the system as is, but add a seeding system, which would determine the HEC group you are in the next year.But any advantage would be there anyway Fitzy and if Ackford got what he wanted, The Italians and scots would get weaker meaning we could rest even more key players and we would get stronger. Rathbaner has it right, the AP is dependent on wealthy owners buying in talent whereas the RB12 is owned by the unions, I know which I prefer!!! Hopefully in ten years time the Italian game will have developed to a level where promotion/ relegation can come into it but by then we could have georgia, the ruskies, Spain involved you never know. What I do know is that rugby is too great a game to be preserved for the elite who have always played it to the exclusion of new countries.

[Loop]

Not one for bashing the English (... or anybody else for that matter) but there does seem to be a touch of arrogance in that Ackford article.

Basically, the thrust of the article is that:

they (Ireland) have put a lot of importance on the HEC; they have been very successful in the HEC; ergo, we now need to change the format of that competition;

- when it might have been:

given the relative lack of success of our sides in the HEC, we need to be looking to re-structure our domestic game such that our teams can be more competitive.

Restructuring the competition to suit the Permier League would be rewarding the league's and the RFU's failure to sort out their own house.

As a final point, would 8 as opposed to 11 RB12 teams have made a blind bit of difference to Irish dominance over the past few years? The whole thing's a red herring.

EDIT: ... and very possibly about £££ more than it's about anything else

[blackwarrior]

This is Stuart Barnes take on the theme, and a few comments on the weekend performances ...

Lessons to be learnt
England need to learn their lessons from the Heineken Cup

Stuart Barnes
Posted 24th January 2012

When the Heineken Cup began in 1995 the development of the game in some of the 'smaller' rugby nations was regarded as a raison d'etre almost as important as the actual competition itself.

It was a World Cup year in which England (albeit hammered by the All Blacks) had reached the semi-finals after knocking out the defending champions, Australia and France were desperately unlucky to lose in controversial circumstances (I love the legalese of the phrase, don't you?) in the wind and rain to a South African team that had the will of a nation behind them.

England was Grand Slam champions in 1995 to go with their Slams of 1991 and 1992. There was a sense that the power of English rugby would act as some sort of sporting missionary to bring hope and understanding to the Celtic Nations.

The Heineken Cup would force Scotland, Ireland and Wales to rethink their approach to the game in the face of regular competition with England and France. The growing professionalisation of the sport had a natural role in improving standards in the Celtic nations as fitness levels increased and gymnasiums became the 20th century rugby players' church but the Heineken Cup was one of the most significant factors in the steady improvement in Wales, Scotland and - most of all - Ireland.

Lessons learnt
Its hegemony has not been without victims; the club game in all three countries suffered, especially Wales where a great and proud history was consigned to the bins of sporting yesterdays but the benefits at the highest level of the game are now unquestionable.

Ireland has learned its lessons so well that it has been an international player at the highest level of the European game for the best part of a decade. Wales has won two Grand Slams in the first 10 years on the new century while England has performed superbly at Heineken level but been caught up at test level.

This season it appears that the once missionary English proselytisers are in need of a lesson themselves. It is not just the fact that only one team has made the quarter-finals that is of concern; nor is it the salary cap, the first justification in times of defeat. Leicester and Saracens are competitive enough when it comes to the size of squads.

No, it is the style of the English game - at club and Test level - that is most in need of a rethink. The Premiership has long prided itself (and justifiably so) on its thumping power and regular competitiveness but when the other nations match the power what else is left? The answer at the moment appears to be not much.

Same old England
The Celtic league has beefed up until it has become a physical match for the English league but England's clubs have not looked at the speed of the game in the Celtic League. The net result is that defences which appear watertight against the same old familiar, same old defence minded opponents are left for dead by teams that off load (Edinburgh) and teams that pass accurately and ambitiously from deep (Leinster).

It is not about relegation either; that old canard needs putting to bed. When Newcastle stayed up a few seasons ago under Steve Bates they played their way out of danger with positive rugby, not the grinding forward, safety first stuff.

The three Irish teams have plenty to teach our clubs but England does not want to listen; it prefers to offer excuses rather than see the evidence in front of everyone's eyes. Watch a Premierhsip match and the dire quality of the passing and then study Leinster where Joe Scmidt wants his team to be the best passing team in Europe. You can have a pack that can lift several tons of weights but if it can't get its hands on the ball and the opponents they are going to look like bodybuilders more than professional rugby players.

The national team has suffered from the same malaise. The breakdown has become the English god, fed sacrificial backs that run with heads down into them and protect the ball, ensuring slow recycled possession. Defenders will only commit numbers rarely, preferring to keep defences numerically strong and stretched across the field. It bears a passing resemblance to rugby league but most of the time is an inferior version.

Ulster, Munster and Leinster have the courage and rugby intellects to throw men into the contact when the time is right and the result is quick ball in possession and turnovers when in defence. The English way is similar to a defensive line out strategy when sides don't jump against the team throwing in so they are set to repel the drive to come.

There are situations (close to the try line) when this is a perfectly valid option but the breakdown equivalent sees most sides NEVER getting off ground; preferring to be set in defence than actually trying to steal ball at source. In Belfast the other week, Ulster was tearing the Tigers to pieces at the breakdown and Leicester did not nothing to alter their game despite all the experience in that back and their dressing room.

If England retains any hubris going back to the early 90s and peaking in 2003 now is an appropriate time to shed it. Something is happening in European rugby and right now England's clubs don't seem willing to open their eyes and see what it is. The Heineken is still teaching lessons but the once masters are not proving devout students.

The final eight
As for the action itself, well done Gloucester who played most unlike an English team; if they can maintain that brio when the pressure is on they will be a neutral's hope for the rest of the English season; Toulouse have fitness issues and are vulnerable in Edinburgh.

Well done Edinburgh for those four tries to give the side playing with ambition the pool and a home tie rather than a trip to Dublin. Well done to Munster for answering all their critics in a most typically Munster way.

They will have to be as good again in the quarter-finals because Ulster will not lie down and wait for the Thomond inevitable; their narrow loss in the Auvergne backs up the splendid win against Leicester to make them a serious player in this year's Heineken.

Of the four quarter-finals only one has an inevitable look to it. The Blues will be feeling just that in Dublin barring a freak occurrence; as for the other three games, sit back through the Six Nations and dream those dreams of Heineken glory.

http://www.skysports.com/opinion/story/0,25212,12062_7451779,00.html

[munsterforever]

Having more teams in the HEC or others having less will statistically help them in the pools but when they meet a leinster toulouse or in form munster they will always lose and why?l...
lets cut to the chase. the reason why the english teams are caic is because their players spend far too much time in the gym and too little time on basic skills. Its all well and good being massive but as Saints found out on Saturday. Power, body positioning, lines of running etc etc are much more important in the modern game. The game has changed somewhat to a more cerebral sport and although there is still too much focus on the scrum in rugby union, (and i think that will get sorted soon), players are being encouraged by the new rules to be more agile, more athletic rather than just huge.

The back row is one thing-I think England have a good player in easter-he carried well in his last game, but he doesnt have the athleticism of Heaslip, who for all his faults, even has a sidestep! and look at dusatoir! what an athlete!

England concentrate on size in the front row, for example Hartley Cole and in particularly Sheridan, however size and strength is one thing but a modern prop like Healy is throwing himself around the field and making yards like a back row and also has hands. Look at Servat-an immense ball carrier and good hands and smart rugby brain....Same in the Centres, they do have a monster with talent in Tuilagi, but ffs they have watched BOD take themselves and others to pieces for a decade and persist with players like Tindall or the other musclebound freak whose name escapes me.

Somebody said Pysche, and thats just what it is and just what is holding them back-their own peculiar pysche...they want to bully the opposition with massive men, beating the opposition into submission, whilst to get to the top just now you need something more than that, moreover their arrogance when every time they lose they blame the ref or blame the weather or players missing or...well anything but themselves and that stops them honestly analysing what really are their shortcomings as players and as a team so they can be fixed

Now if they ever learn those lessons we will be fecked

[NotreDameRFC]

Having more teams in the HEC or others having less will statistically help them in the pools but when they meet a leinster toulouse or in form munster they will always lose and why?l...
lets cut to the chase. the reason why the english teams are caic is because their players spend far too much time in the gym and too little time on basic skills. Its all well and good being massive but as Saints found out on Saturday. Power, body positioning, lines of running etc etc are much more important in the modern game. The game has changed somewhat to a more cerebral sport and although there is still too much focus on the scrum in rugby union, (and i think that will get sorted soon), players are being encouraged by the new rules to be more agile, more athletic rather than just huge.

The back row is one thing-I think England have a good player in easter-he carried well in his last game, but he doesnt have the athleticism of Heaslip, who for all his faults, even has a sidestep! and look at dusatoir! what an athlete!

England concentrate on size in the front row, for example Hartley Cole and in particularly Sheridan, however size and strength is one thing but a modern prop like Healy is throwing himself around the field and making yards like a back row and also has hands. Look at Servat-an immense ball carrier and good hands and smart rugby brain....Same in the Centres, they do have a monster with talent in Tuilagi, but ffs they have watched BOD take themselves and others to pieces for a decade and persist with players like Tindall or the other musclebound freak whose name escapes me.

Somebody said Pysche, and thats just what it is and just what is holding them back-their own peculiar pysche...they want to bully the opposition with massive men, beating the opposition into submission, whilst to get to the top just now you need something more than that, moreover their arrogance when every time they lose they blame the ref or blame the weather or players missing or...well anything but themselves and that stops them honestly analysing what really are their shortcomings as players and as a team so they can be fixed

Now if they ever learn those lessons we will be fecked



the shame for them is they some cracking young players ... like they had in show in Junior RWC... but find it hard to.break through at club level.... George ford to name one....but they will go down the mike tindall ... brad barritt route no doubt

[mr chips]

I want more focus on the scrum, not less! I love the scrum, I don't want it to be turned into a mere formality for restarts. I don't necessarily want it to be about brute strength, and would love for it to be reffed properly so that the boring in was taken out of it, but winning a good technical contest is a huge boost to player morale.

[Valencia]

Couldn't find directly the correct forum for this, but Stuart Barnes is on Off The Ball at the moment, talking about Irish & English clubs etc, the conversation drifted onto Declan Kidney. Barnes says Conor Murray is a fine Scrum half in the Mike Philips type mould, but that Johnny Sexton being the most important decision maker on the team, plays better with Eoin Reddan as Reddan take more of a servants role??

[Munsterboy]

Couldn't find directly the correct forum for this, but Stuart Barnes is on Off The Ball at the moment, talking about Irish & English clubs etc, the conversation drifted onto Declan Kidney. Barnes says Conor Murray is a fine Scrum half in the Mike Philips type mould, but that Johnny Sexton being the most important decision maker on the team, plays better with Eoin Reddan as Reddan take more of a servants role??

It's as much down to the fact that:

a) Reddan and Sexton have been playing together for years and developed a strong relationship and

b) Reddan is a vastly experienced player while Murray only has a single season of HEC and international rugby under his belt.

Murray and Sexton need more time together and Murray also needs to continue to develop as a player. I think Penney and Mannix will be very good for him as I think they will put a premium on moving the ball quickly and facilitating a fast paced, passing game - the kind of game Sexton is used to playing with Leinster.