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LeakyBoots
8th-October-2011, 07:07
An injection of new blood? BOD to 12? So who at 13? Something new in the second row?

I think one of the big positives of this RWC is the coming of age of Earls, Healy, Murray, O'Brien and Rory Best (to be fair, he has shipped a lot of criticism, from me too). Throw in injuries to Felix Jones (a real pity he didn't make it out there) who will be back and we've the nucleus of a fresh new talented team.

From our perspective, guys like Keatley, Sherry, Archer (if given a chance) and our backrow players can make a statement over the next few months. Leinster's conveyor belt of talented backs will have a few names.

Interesting times ahead, we should blood the next generation at this Six Nations

The Outlaw
8th-October-2011, 07:36
An injection of new blood? BOD to 12? So who at 13? Something new in the second row?

I think one of the big positives of this RWC is the coming of age of Earls, Healy, Murray, O'Brien and Rory Best (to be fair, he has shipped a lot of criticism, from me too). Throw in injuries to Felix Jones (a real pity he didn't make it out there) who will be back and we've the nucleus of a fresh new talented team.

From our perspective, guys like Keatley, Sherry, Archer (if given a chance) and our backrow players can make a statement over the next few months. Leinster's conveyor belt of talented backs will have a few names.

Interesting times ahead, we should blood the next generation at this Six Nations

Next generation arent as good. And the golden generation as they were called have massively underachieved in my view. Barren times ahead. We need to go all out to win this 6 nations because it could be the last we have a decent chance in for quite some time.

Mcork
8th-October-2011, 09:07
We need to start the rebuilding phase now. BO'D would be one of the few older generation who should be accomodated at the next 6n's. We have talent coming through. We have 2 choices - we can either try and squeeze a season or 2 more out of certain older generation on the very slim (almost nonexistant) chance they could deliver a slam or we can start to blood the next generation. It's true that the likes of BO'D are once off and we don't appear to have anyone of that talent coming through. However probably the overall standard of player coming through will be on average on a higher standard than that has gone before. PO'C (who should have another 2 - 3 seasons in him) & BO'D cannot not be replaced but if we are honest they played alongside a lot of fairly average players or players who blew very hot & cold.

Murray - will probably go on to be one of our best ever SH's & has far far superior potential to our recent players in that position
Healy - ditto LH prop
O'Brien - difficult imagine someone being better than D. Wallace but this guy just might be.
Sexton - needs to improve some aspects of his game but has potential to be much better than ROG (particularly in attacking the line & defence)
Earls: still incredibly young - will improve
Kearney: more potential than Girve or Murphy

As I've said PO'C, Ferris, Heaslip (poor championship aside), Bowe & Co may still make another WC (or at least a few 6n's)if managed correctly. Add to that the next level of Conway's, Ruddocks, J. Marshall's, McFaddens, Ryan (both Munster & Leinsters), Gilroy, Keatley etc and so while there is no obvious replacement for BO'D overall i expect that the standard will probably be higher overall. The key will be getting them gametime at the highest level and ensuring competition for places (something that has been lacking in the past). There must be much more emphasis on bringing through youth. There's talent there but it won't come to the fore if it isn't given a chance.

sparks
8th-October-2011, 09:30
We need to start the rebuilding phase now. BO'D would be one of the few older generation who should be accomodated at the next 6n's. We have talent coming through. We have 2 choices - we can either try and squeeze a season or 2 more out of certain older generation on the very slim (almost nonexistant) chance they could deliver a slam or we can start to blood the next generation. It's true that the likes of BO'D are once off and we don't appear to have anyone of that talent coming through. However probably the overall standard of player coming through will be on average on a higher standard than that has gone before. PO'C (who should have another 2 - 3 seasons in him) & BO'D cannot not be replaced but if we are honest they played alongside a lot of fairly average players or players who blew very hot & cold.

Murray - will probably go on to be one of our best ever SH's & has far far superior potential to our recent players in that position
Healy - ditto LH prop
O'Brien - difficult imagine someone being better than D. Wallace but this guy just might be.
Sexton - needs to improve some aspects of his game but has potential to be much better than ROG (particularly in attacking the line & defence)
Earls: still incredibly young - will improve
Kearney: more potential than Girve or Murphy

As I've said PO'C, Ferris, Heaslip (poor championship aside), Bowe & Co may still make another WC (or at least a few 6n's)if managed correctly. Add to that the next level of Conway's, Ruddocks, J. Marshall's, McFaddens, Ryan (both Munster & Leinsters), Gilroy, Keatley etc and so while there is no obvious replacement for BO'D overall i expect that the standard will probably be higher overall. The key will be getting them gametime at the highest level and ensuring competition for places (something that has been lacking in the past). There must be much more emphasis on bringing through youth. There's talent there but it won't come to the fore if it isn't given a chance.

Dont forget Donnacha Ryan! He is going to be a top player in the 2nd row, hope he gets his share of games this season for Munster

Mcork
8th-October-2011, 10:05
Dont forget Donnacha Ryan! He is going to be a top player in the 2nd row, hope he gets his share of games this season for Munster

True and the other Ryan at Leinster as well who is a physical speciment. The players are there. I hope Kidney learns from Gatland. If Wales had played the same team that beat us in the 6n's we'd have won comfortably. Gat sensed the younger generation (which haven't done anything at club level to suggest they are better than our younger generation) would play with less baggage and fear and took a gamble. It would be like us v France: the players are so used to getting their asses handed to them by the French that they are already beaten before theyleave the dressing room. What Gatland has done is the equivalent of us throwing a bunch of youngsters in against france because they'll have none of the baggage of the older players. It was a gamble but it payed handsomely. Wales fear nonone because this bunch of Welsh players don't have any baggage at this level.

Kidney needs to throw caution to the wind in the next 6n's. He's everything to gain and almost nothing to lose. Players like BO'D and D'Arcy don't train anymore because they spend their time now rehabbing between games. Their time is now up really. The likes of ROG, Reddan, O'Callaghan aren't really going to offer anything going forward. RO'G effectively announced his retirement a few weeks ago after the WC and the IRFU stupidly tried to talk him out of it. He's 35 or something - it's time to go and he knows that well. Of course if the IRFU put financial pressure on him to stay, he'll do what is right for himself and stay but it won't be for rugby reasons.

A team of 2 years time at a 6n's could look something like this:

Healy, Sherry, Hagan, D. Ryan, PO'C, Ruddock/Ferris, PO'Mahoney/D. Ryan, O'Brien/Heaslip, Murray, Sexton/keatley, Conway/Gilroy McFadden/Marshall, Earls/Spense/Bowe, Gilroy/Bowe, Kearney/jones.

That team has the same potential as this welsh team. Wales were just pushed to bring that generation through quicker due to the lack of success of the incumbents at any level. We've always been waiting for our club heros to transfer their heineken cup sucess into INTL level success. It's not going to happen now and we need to change our approach totally.

The Outlaw
8th-October-2011, 10:23
True and the other Ryan at Leinster as well who is a physical speciment. The players are there. I hope Kidney learns from Gatland. If Wales had played the same team that beat us in the 6n's we'd have won comfortably. Gat sensed the younger generation (which haven't done anything at club level to suggest they are better than our younger generation) would play with less baggage and fear and took a gamble. It would be like us v France: the players are so used to getting their asses handed to them by the French that they are already beaten before theyleave the dressing room. What Gatland has done is the equivalent of us throwing a bunch of youngsters in against france because they'll have none of the baggage of the older players. It was a gamble but it payed handsomely. Wales fear nonone because this bunch of Welsh players don't have any baggage at this level.

Kidney needs to throw caution to the wind in the next 6n's. He's everything to gain and almost nothing to lose. Players like BO'D and D'Arcy don't train anymore because they spend their time now rehabbing between games. Their time is now up really. The likes of ROG, Reddan, O'Callaghan aren't really going to offer anything going forward. RO'G effectively announced his retirement a few weeks ago after the WC and the IRFU stupidly tried to talk him out of it. He's 35 or something - it's time to go and he knows that well. Of course if the IRFU put financial pressure on him to stay, he'll do what is right for himself and stay but it won't be for rugby reasons.

A team of 2 years time at a 6n's could look something like this:

Healy, Sherry, Hagan, D. Ryan, PO'C, Ruddock/Ferris, PO'Mahoney/D. Ryan, O'Brien/Heaslip, Murray, Sexton/keatley, Conway/Gilroy McFadden/Marshall, Earls/Spense/Bowe, Gilroy/Bowe, Kearney/jones.

That team has the same potential as this welsh team. Wales were just pushed to bring that generation through quicker due to the lack of success of the incumbents at any level. We've always been waiting for our club heros to transfer their heineken cup sucess into INTL level success. It's not going to happen now and we need to change our approach totally.

Cant agree. Kidney picked the best team available because the above haven't been good enough to get into provincial teams -thats the bottom line. Saying these guys will be great at international level when they haven't been played HEC is below international standard is taking positivity to a new level in my view.

Rugby is the national sport at wales and they have a greater volume of players are better skilled at a younger age. Thats why they could start a number of young players today. A lot of our players spend their formative years playing 2-3 different sports right up to 18 years of age.

JoeyFantastic
8th-October-2011, 10:25
While some rebuilding is needed, I think we have to be careful to not over-react to today's loss. Hell, we saw what Schmidt did with Leinster's backs last season, and Feek did with their scrum, changes can be made far quicker than people are allowing for. Apart from centre, outhalf and at 7 we're in very good health. Crucial positions but it's not like we're without prospects for those positions either.

Whoever replaces Gaffney will have a hard job in replacing O'Driscoll but equally he'll have depth across the backs that arguably we've never had before. Have we ever been able to leave players like Fitz and Jones behind, and leave Trimble and McFadden on the bench before?

The Outlaw
8th-October-2011, 10:40
While some rebuilding is needed, I think we have to be careful to not over-react to today's loss. Hell, we saw what Schmidt did with Leinster's backs last season, and Feek did with their scrum, changes can be made far quicker than people are allowing for. Apart from centre, outhalf and at 7 we're in very good health. Crucial positions but it's not like we're without prospects for those positions either.

Whoever replaces Gaffney will have a hard job in replacing O'Driscoll but equally he'll have depth across the backs that arguably we've never had before. Have we ever been able to leave players like Fitz and Jones behind, and leave Trimble and McFadden on the bench before?

We've no prospects at 7. None.

Jandek
8th-October-2011, 10:42
Wales and France have demonstrated beyond doubt that you cannot any longer win the WC by playing caveman rugby.


The next few years are going to be a wasteland for Ireland...we are severely lacking depth in a number of crucial areas: 1, 3, 7, 8, 12 and 13...

The only Munster player who played well today was POC. The rest, unfortunately, were below average at best, with DOC in particular having a very poor game...Ryan was consistently making it over the gain line when he came on, and should be starting for us in the HEC...

rathbaner
8th-October-2011, 10:48
We have enough talented players available to be a top 3 6N side - which is pretty much where we've been since 2003.

But we need to progress our game a bit - as MCork said on another thread and Hook said on TV, Gaffney's departure opens that peospect up -

Have a look at this just off the top of my head

Capped backs available to Ireland now and for the next few seasons

Sexton, Keatley, Murray, TOL, Reddan, Earls, Bowe, Fitz, Trimble, McFadden, Kearney, Jones

Likely contenders: O'Malley, Spence, Cave, Humphries the Younger, Zebo

Capped forwards available to Ireland now and for the next few seasons:

Cronin, Varley, Hagan, Healy, Court, Ross, O'Connell, DRyan, Ferris, Heaslip, O'Brien, McLoughlin, Ruddock

Contenders: Sherry, Nagle, Archer, O'Malley, Toner,

JoeyFantastic
8th-October-2011, 10:50
We've no prospects at 7. None.

Depends what you mean by prospects, Dom Ryan could grow into one. If Grace ever got back to full fitness he should be pushed ahead of O'Connor and Ofisa. O'Hara in the Munster Academy could be a very good one, will be interesting to see what Con make of him. Certainly he's more likely to be an actual 7 than TOD, imo. All those guys are young but we're wasting time playing guys like Ronan and O'Connor.

dropkick
8th-October-2011, 10:50
Gaffney going will be a good start.

We'll have a stronger squad in the next world cup. There are some good players coming through who are more skillful than the golden generation.

masterchief
8th-October-2011, 11:02
Depends what you mean by prospects, Dom Ryan could grow into one. If Grace ever got back to full fitness he should be pushed ahead of O'Connor and Ofisa. O'Hara in the Munster Academy could be a very good one, will be interesting to see what Con make of him. Certainly he's more likely to be an actual 7 than TOD, imo. All those guys are young but we're wasting time playing guys like Ronan and O'Connor.

Ruddock looked decent at 7 last year too iirc?

The Outlaw
8th-October-2011, 11:08
Depends what you mean by prospects, Dom Ryan could grow into one. If Grace ever got back to full fitness he should be pushed ahead of O'Connor and Ofisa. O'Hara in the Munster Academy could be a very good one, will be interesting to see what Con make of him. Certainly he's more likely to be an actual 7 than TOD, imo. All those guys are young but we're wasting time playing guys like Ronan and O'Connor.

We've no natural 7's. Hook is right we dont train them to be 7's. None of the above are groundhogs. Got absolutely murdered today because we had no natural 7. Prime reason we lost. 6's and 8's to burn but no 7's. Dome Ryan is a 6. Ruddock is a 6. Grace isnt good enough for international level.

the plastic paddy
8th-October-2011, 11:41
Next generation arent as good. And the golden generation as they were called have massively underachieved in my view. Barren times ahead. We need to go all out to win this 6 nations because it could be the last we have a decent chance in for quite some time.The Oracle has spoken!! Jez you are a positive sort of fella. FFS we have got some cracking players coming through and should have a nice bit of crossover in the next couple of years to bring the young lads through. Ireland when BOD retires will be in a better place than when Fester retired. We have a structure that is the envy of the world and the players to make the best of it. One sentiment I will agree with is that Gaffney is ready for the pastures.

JoeyFantastic
8th-October-2011, 12:08
We've no natural 7's. Hook is right we dont train them to be 7's. None of the above are groundhogs. Got absolutely murdered today because we had no natural 7. Prime reason we lost. 6's and 8's to burn but no 7's. Dome Ryan is a 6. Ruddock is a 6. Grace isnt good enough for international level.

Have you ever seen O'Hara play? He's nothing like Ryan or Grace.

Boo-boo
8th-October-2011, 13:38
When the light shines too hard on some players the position becomes a no go and so you find a drought when that player needs replacing. Who wants to be a sub to the BODs of rugby.

mahoney
8th-October-2011, 15:31
Sure theres rebulding to be done but we still have the core of a very good squad.Yes there will proably never be another bod or Paulie again but players of that calibre are one of a kind and pob up rarely.Kidney and his management team are going to be there for a while and rightly so with the exception of Gafney.When you consider some of the players that didnt travel for one reason or the other (tol Luke fitz etc)along with some of the up and comming talent comming along through the provinces we have lots of reasons to be optimistic.My only worry is that we will cling onto some of the players (bod,rog,doc,Darcy and some others) for another 2 years at the expense of the new talent comming through.Im not suggesting putting them out to pasture,Just use them as best you can to nurture some new blood.Prep for 2015 starts now.

isola ciarrai
8th-October-2011, 15:37
Should send a development squad on tour in SH to play their development squads type teams - restrict squad to 24 years old and under, and let them sink or swim.
As regards blooding younger men in Pro12 and HEC, IRFU should tell sponsors and provincial coaches that this coming season is to be one of development and finding new talent and assessing what is there.
As a start, need Don Ryan to start with POC and with MOD and DOC impact players only. Nagle and Foley need to bulk up - the physical battering Nagle took from Irish in the 'friendly' showed his talent but relative fragility. Leinster must start Dom Ryan and Ruddock. The quickest young BR must be made into a real 7.

glorob
8th-October-2011, 15:45
Should send a development squad on tour in SH to play their development squads type teams - restrict squad to 24 years old and under, and let them sink or swim.
As regards blooding younger men in Pro12 and HEC, IRFU should tell sponsors and provincial coaches that this coming season is to be one of development and finding new talent and assessing what is there.
As a start, need Don Ryan to start with POC and with MOD and DOC impact players only. Nagle and Foley need to bulk up - the physical battering Nagle took from Irish in the 'friendly' showed his talent but relative fragility. Leinster must start Dom Ryan and Ruddock. The quickest young BR must be made into a real 7.

Development at provincial level must not come at the expense of being competitive and winning.

Mcork
8th-October-2011, 15:58
Cant agree. Kidney picked the best team available because the above haven't been good enough to get into provincial teams -thats the bottom line. Saying these guys will be great at international level when they haven't been played HEC is below international standard is taking positivity to a new level in my view.

Rugby is the national sport at wales and they have a greater volume of players are better skilled at a younger age. Thats why they could start a number of young players today. A lot of our players spend their formative years playing 2-3 different sports right up to 18 years of age.

You really do post some bollix at times. None of the Welsh players have played well at provincial level. Ulster had a better season all the Welsh clubs last season not to mention Leinster or Munster. Wales have not had better underage teams than us in the last few years. Get over yourself - Wales don't have a larger base to pick from and their players are unproven at even Celtic league level.

Gatland did something very simple and that was pick on form - he has taken gambles and has been lucky. If you don't take risks then you won't get the rewards so I don't begrudge him that.

As to whether Kidney picked his best team? On the day he probably did but did he really allow real competition for places in midfield when he was making up the squad. The principle weakness in the team was our midfield - it was said by me and others before the tournament. It was blatantly obvious during the warm-ups. D'Arcy & BO'D are being held together by cellotape at the moment. Neither is training at the level needed to compete at this level. Would we have been better if we'd taken a punt on J. Downey or McFadden at 12. I agree you are always going to play BO'D if he's fit on the day but even time is catching up with him.

DONC
8th-October-2011, 16:03
To be honest the way D'Arcy has been playing of late Danny would have been a better bet

Mcork
8th-October-2011, 16:19
Development at provincial level must not come at the expense of being competitive and winning.

And I don't think the two are mutually incompatible. Wales are basically in development and they may make the WC final. As others have said (bar Outlaw), we have very good young players coming through. We have no obvious heir apparent to BO'D or PO'C (who is fully fit & playing as well as ever so he should last another few seasons).But in most other positions the players coming through are potentially better than the players they are replacing. Even take the likes of Keatley - he has a break and defensive game that ROG never had. Murray will be better than Stringer, TO'L or Reddan. Healy than Horan or Reggie. Sherry looks a real prospect (please someone work on his throwing) ditto Cronin. Hagan, Ruddock, O'Mahoney, D. Ryan x 2, Conway, Marshall etc etc. It's there. We can choose to ignore them for another season and fall further behind or we can give them a real chance (and be willing to accept that they will make mistakes and lose matches due to inexperience).

As was said, 3/4 of the coaching team can take some credit from this WC. Our scrum despite difficulties today is in a better place, 5Feek) our forward play in general is good (Smal). Our defensive system is fine (Kiss). Our attacking play in general is abysmal (Gaffney stands indited). I don't think there is any coincidence in the fact that he was the only coach not resigned for the next 4 years. Our depth in attack was poor, support lines non existant. We were far too lateral hoping for individuals to do something rather than have any coherent attacking ploy. Gaffney let the team down. He's an old man no longer up to speed on the requirements of modern rugby. Kidney needs to scour the planet for a real innovative attacking coach (backs coach is no longer the right word since attack is about interplay between backs & forwards in multi phase attacks). Get a good attack coach, be innovative and bold in selction & I'm willing to wager we'll be as competitive as anyone during the next 4 years. .

bootlace
8th-October-2011, 17:50
Personally I think that we should start building for the future from next years 6 nations,will we though? well that is another matter.I can see the current match squad being selected,why? well a reason that will be given is to give the players a chance to redeem themselves,and there is the small matter of players being on central contracts.There has been no autumn Internationals to blood new players so we will basically be left with the current squad.Maybe the odd injury or a retirement might buck this trend but I would not for see too many changes to the status quo.Lets concentrate on the provinces may be the mantra coming from some especially in the media.

The Outlaw
8th-October-2011, 18:20
The Oracle has spoken!! Jez you are a positive sort of fella. FFS we have got some cracking players coming through and should have a nice bit of crossover in the next couple of years to bring the young lads through. Ireland when BOD retires will be in a better place than when Fester retired. We have a structure that is the envy of the world and the players to make the best of it. One sentiment I will agree with is that Gaffney is ready for the pastures.

You're the guy that said we would hammer Wales.:D

The Outlaw
8th-October-2011, 18:27
You really do post some bollix at times. None of the Welsh players have played well at provincial level. Ulster had a better season all the Welsh clubs last season not to mention Leinster or Munster. Wales have not had better underage teams than us in the last few years. Get over yourself - Wales don't have a larger base to pick from and their players are unproven at even Celtic league level.

Gatland did something very simple and that was pick on form - he has taken gambles and has been lucky. If you don't take risks then you won't get the rewards so I don't begrudge him that.

As to whether Kidney picked his best team? On the day he probably did but did he really allow real competition for places in midfield when he was making up the squad. The principle weakness in the team was our midfield - it was said by me and others before the tournament. It was blatantly obvious during the warm-ups. D'Arcy & BO'D are being held together by cellotape at the moment. Neither is training at the level needed to compete at this level. Would we have been better if we'd taken a punt on J. Downey or McFadden at 12. I agree you are always going to play BO'D if he's fit on the day but even time is catching up with him.

1- Wales proved themselves at World Cup quarter Final stage today. What the lower level of provincial rugby has to do with it is beyond me.
2- Downey is not international quality
3- Mc Fadden couldnt defend on the wing against Russia and you want to put him into a more defensively demanding position at 12. If Mc Fadden was better then Darcy Schmidt would play him at 12. He's not a better player hence the reason he doesnt play there for Leinster. So you're the one taking bollox

Cowboy
8th-October-2011, 20:07
We've no natural 7's. Hook is right we dont train them to be 7's. None of the above are groundhogs. Got absolutely murdered today because we had no natural 7. Prime reason we lost. 6's and 8's to burn but no 7's. Dome Ryan is a 6. Ruddock is a 6. Grace isnt good enough for international level.


612

Say hello to Irelands groundhog openside RWC 2015 (copyright Garryowen2323)

Get that man signed up and get Cronin working on his darts

ustix
8th-October-2011, 20:23
612

Say hello to Irelands groundhog openside RWC 2015 (copyright Garryowen2323)

Get that man signed up and get Cronin working on his darts
Rickhart Beethoven? I likes when peoples think outside the box!

Cowboy
8th-October-2011, 20:30
Rickhart Beethoven? I likes when peoples think outside the box!

Garryowen 2323 is below at the WC but he mentioned it to me today. Strauss played 7 back in SA, and he's a savage ground hog. With Ferris, SOB and Heaslip his lacking size mightnt be too much of a worry. I think its a superb idea

Mcork
8th-October-2011, 20:32
1- Wales proved themselves at World Cup quarter Final stage today. What the lower level of provincial rugby has to do with it is beyond me.
2- Downey is not international quality
3- Mc Fadden couldnt defend on the wing against Russia and you want to put him into a more defensively demanding position at 12. If Mc Fadden was better then Darcy Schmidt would play him at 12. He's not a better player hence the reason he doesnt play there for Leinster. So you're the one taking bollox

1)The welsh play against the Irish lads week in week out. They are not some superstars from another planet as you seem to believe in your little world. We can see how good they are very week. What part of that do you not understand?

2)And D'Arcy is INTL quality? based on what- You having a larf? Downey at least deserved a chance which he didn't get. the rest as we say is history.
3) McFadden has not been tried at his position of inside centre the exact position we are weak in. He's been put at a load of diff positions to suit the needs of his coaches.

The Outlaw
8th-October-2011, 20:36
1)The welsh play against the Irish lads week in week out. They are not some superstars from another planet as you seem to believe in your little world. We can see how good they are very week. What part of that do you not understand?

2)And D'Arcy is INTL quality? based on what- You having a larf? Downey at least deserved a chance which he didn't get. the rest as we say is history.
3) McFadden has not been tried at his position of inside centre the exact position we are weak in. He's been put at a load of diff positions to suit the needs of his coaches.

Face facts Mc Fadden cant get in ahead of Darcy because Darcy is better. He cant even get in at 13 ahead of Eoin O Malley so case closed as far as I'm concerned. You havent a shred of evidence to suggest he can play 12 at international level.

The point about the Welsh is Mcork is that they beat us today when it counted. Thats the bottom line. We were supposed to be more experienced and bla bla bla. Yet a bunch of greenhorns made mincemeat of us on the worlds biggest stage. So they own the bragging rights whether we like it or not.

Mcork
8th-October-2011, 20:38
I must admit you have lost me Outlaw. It seems the point of the argument is always changing with you. I've no idea what you're on about there with the welsh & bragging rights.

The shred of evidence about McFadden was when we won the Churchill cup years ago with him at 12 and voted the tournaments MVP.

Mcork
8th-October-2011, 20:44
People are also forgetting about the groundhog role is that it basically only relates to scrumtime for a N°7. In phase play, a hooker or another tight/loose forward can play that role. Hell B. O'Driscoll was our most accomplished 'number 7' for many years.

Jandek
8th-October-2011, 20:49
What are we rebuilding, again?

Munster...Ireland?

They're both so seriously devalued now that there's no way either private banks or the Troika will give us the necessary finance.

Let's just stick them in NAMA and accept a 70% write-down...

The Outlaw
8th-October-2011, 20:59
I must admit you have lost me Outlaw. It seems the point of the argument is always changing with you. I've no idea what you're on about there with the welsh & bragging rights.

The shred of evidence about McFadden was when we won the Churchill cup years ago with him at 12 and voted the tournaments MVP.

The Churchill Cup in fairness is Magners standard. He couldnt defend against Russia and you want him to defend against Jamie Roberts? Give me strength. He's a good player but nothing more. And he aint a 12 at this level in my view.

The Welsh have won 2 Grand Slams and beaten us in a World Cup Quarter Final in the same period of time as our "golden generation". All the dominance at provincial level we've had came in handy today. Looks like the Welsh just raise their game at international level.

overthehillprop
8th-October-2011, 22:45
The IRFU system that we hear is the envy of the rest of the rugby world is also a massive noose around our necks when it comes to developing young players. IRFU interference in provincial selections, centrally contracted players having to be selected for HEC games, tax breaks meaning that as the players get older its more beneficial to stay in Ireland and clog up the competition for places rather than move on elsewhere, and from my own experience a provincial reliance on an extremely narrow number of fee paying schools for players rather than truly putting money and effort into expanding the game into underage at clubs and non traditional schools.

isola ciarrai
8th-October-2011, 22:59
The Churchill Cup in fairness is Magners standard. He couldnt defend against Russia and you want him to defend against Jamie Roberts? Give me strength. He's a good player but nothing more. And he aint a 12 at this level in my view.

The Welsh have won 2 Grand Slams and beaten us in a World Cup Quarter Final in the same period of time as our "golden generation". All the dominance at provincial level we've had came in handy today. Looks like the Welsh just raise their game at international level.
Usually like McCork posts - however you are harsh but correct here. Why can they rise over their usual Pro12/HEC mediocrity and step up? TBH, Frances selection of brick ****house three quarters will simply handle Roberts and Davies in a way we cannot. The old saying proved true today - a good big un is always better than a good little un.

Cowboy
8th-October-2011, 23:21
The IRFU system that we hear is the envy of the rest of the rugby world is also a massive noose around our necks when it comes to developing young players. IRFU interference in provincial selections, centrally contracted players having to be selected for HEC games, tax breaks meaning that as the players get older its more beneficial to stay in Ireland and clog up the competition for places rather than move on elsewhere, and from my own experience a provincial reliance on an extremely narrow number of fee paying schools for players rather than truly putting money and effort into expanding the game into underage at clubs and non traditional schools.

Ajay and Fritz might have a thing or two to say about those tax breaks in time yet. Who'd have thought the IMF would sort out the central contract system. All hail our prudent financial overlords!

Mcork
9th-October-2011, 07:15
Usually like McCork posts - however you are harsh but correct here. Why can they rise over their usual Pro12/HEC mediocrity and step up? TBH, Frances selection of brick ****house three quarters will simply handle Roberts and Davies in a way we cannot. The old saying proved true today - a good big un is always better than a good little un.

I agree with you about brick****house centres. When you look at the likes of Rougerie, Mermoz, Roberts, Davies, Nonu, Fourie, De Villiers, Steyn, Sonny Bill etc, if you are not 100% physically you cannot compete with them especially if you are already giving away kilos. BO'D and D'arcy a couple of seasons ago and fighting fit would have handled that OK but not anymore. Neither could preseason properly due to injuries and they weren't even training between matches. How could they compete?? If Wales hadn't shown them up in this match, France would have in the next or NZ in the final. We were able to protect them v Oz by totally destroying Oz up front and Italy had nothing there. Time to bite the bullet on those 2 really and at least give a few of the young guns meaningful gametime in the interim. Downey for all his detrators would have been physically able to stand his ground yesterday where D'Arcy was simply blown away.

The physically most promising of the young centres coming through is N. Spense. He's aggresive and built like an ox. Unfortunately he's very raw and has poor hands but as I said with a bit oif work, he's probably what Ireland needs in the short term and he has time on his side. He needs to be in the 6n's squad.

busbi
9th-October-2011, 11:01
I'd say Outlaw was having multiple orgasms watcing that yesterday morning.

It's far from all down hill from here. The squad will get stronger imho, as it has consistently since the start of the decade. I'd really love someone to give me a list of who actually was in this golden generation so often spoken about? For me, we have had 3 World Class players (when at their best) over the best part of the last decade, BOD, POC and Wally, and after the guys have been, and will be replaced by guys that are as good or better. Bod is nowhere near that level and hasn't been for a while, and the only way Wally was starting was by Heaslip being dropped. POC is the only guy i'm worried about us replacing, but i feel his year or so out with his groin injury could end up extending his career to perhaps even the next World Cup.

So from the team that lined out yesterday, in the short to medium term we're looking at replacing BOD, D'Arcy, ROG, and maybe DOC. That's far from daunting.

12 is out biggest issue, and i'd go about looking for a new one now as D'Arcy just isn't hacking it anymore. Hopefully the first few rounds of the HEC will throw up something and i'd be looking at Spence to put his hand up, but perhaps Fitzgearld could look at reinventing himself there. BOD deserves a swansong in the 6N's but even at that i'd look at Bowe/Earls here. Full Back is the only other interesting back position, where either Jones will put injuries behind and become the modern full back we need, or else Joe could do wonders with Kearney and his approach to counter attacking. Players coming through all the time across the backline, and keep a special eye on Conway, and perhaps Zebo for us.

At half back, more of the same. Sexton will have a clear run at the position now until Keatley ousts ROG. Murray likely to be our nailed on 9, but Redan isn't going anywhere.

We're laughing at backrow, though there will be change. O'Brien will go on to be one of the real greats, and possibly our most effective player ever. Heaslip has had a terrible World Cup, but if he could turn it around he could be the World Class player some want to label him. Ferris has an asterix next to him with his knee. He was visably limping yesterday. How long his career will last is unknown. Would be a massive boost if he can stay fit. Hard to see Wally knocking any more out of it at international level even if he gets back fit. Leamy can either have an indian summer to his career, or slip away, hopefully the former seeing as he will have to be a major player with Munster. After that, i'd be amazed if Dom Ryan doesn't come through, while Peter O'Mahony is finally making the break with us. I'd agree that we do need a 7, and Jennings isn't up to this level. I'd imagine POM could end up as Munster's 7 while Wally is out, and if that goes well, i feel he could add an interesting dynamic there at international level. He might not be at the level of Ryan or Ruddock, but might be a better option for a long term proper 7.

In the second row, don't think POC will be going anywhere fast. DOC done alright, but i thought Ryan looked great in every chance he has gotten. Adds more bite and dynamism. Would be great if the other provinces other came up with options here.

I think we could be looking at a very good period in the front row if Deccie takes his head of his ass. At hooker, Best isn't 30 till next August and going well, Cronin will step up, and Sherry will come through for us. Strauss will be a major player for us if he claims, but i wouldn't bet on it. Healy will only get better, and i'd be confident of a player or two coming through behind him. At TH, Ross has a few years in him, while Hagan should push him all the way at Leinster with Feek there coaching him. Keep a close eye on Maguire at Connacht too.

isola ciarrai
9th-October-2011, 12:09
Garryowen 2323 is below at the WC but he mentioned it to me today. Strauss played 7 back in SA, and he's a savage ground hog. With Ferris, SOB and Heaslip his lacking size mightnt be too much of a worry. I think its a superb idea
Hmmmmm = veerrry interesting. Agree we do not have a 7 anywhere even on the horizon. POM had an immense performance last evening and has improved game by game with matchtime, but will always we 6 or 8; Dom Ryan and Ruddock big strong fast lads but not close to the ground like Strauss. We have loads of BR talent coming on, but zero in the classic 7 type. Will need minimum 7 serious BR in national squad, with injuries etc. Have gotten away without classic 7 due to sheer excellence of BOD.
Munster have nothing in the 7 style to offer right now.
Cannot stand Hook and his bull, but made a legitimate point yesterday - make a 7 out of someone!
I like it, Garryowen 2323, I like it.
POM will chase Heaslip IMO, and it will be good for both. Doubt that Fez, great player that he is, has a long career ahead, with injury. SOB looks to have years left, Dom Ryan looks decent.

isola ciarrai
9th-October-2011, 12:21
I agree with you about brick****house centres. When you look at the likes of Rougerie, Mermoz, Roberts, Davies, Nonu, Fourie, De Villiers, Steyn, Sonny Bill etc, if you are not 100% physically you cannot compete with them especially if you are already giving away kilos. BO'D and D'arcy a couple of seasons ago and fighting fit would have handled that OK but not anymore. Neither could preseason properly due to injuries and they weren't even training between matches. How could they compete?? If Wales hadn't shown them up in this match, France would have in the next or NZ in the final. We were able to protect them v Oz by totally destroying Oz up front and Italy had nothing there. Time to bite the bullet on those 2 really and at least give a few of the young guns meaningful gametime in the interim. Downey for all his detrators would have been physically able to stand his ground yesterday where D'Arcy was simply blown away.

The physically most promising of the young centres coming through is N. Spense. He's aggresive and built like an ox. Unfortunately he's very raw and has poor hands but as I said with a bit oif work, he's probably what Ireland needs in the short term and he has time on his side. He needs to be in the 6n's squad.
Glad to be back ad idem (the thousand euro barrister word for 'agree') MCCork - Munster badly and Ireland also, need a world class backs/attack coach, or coaches to work to developing what we have here and now - and your point about Spence is right. Another impressive outing last night by Barnes, and someone must take Zebo in hand to develop his speed and size into something real, and Holland sure as hell cannot.
I am reprising my old hit - bring back EOS into a technical role, and the most promising SH innovative but young coach who would need to earn spurs before stepping up ay home.
As for provincial rivalry, we will ALL benefit from top level, hot house coaching for the coming generation of backs - think how the fast tracking of Cave, Whitten, Spence, O'Malley, Kearney Jnr, Zebo, Barnes, Cathal Sheridan, young Luke McGrath even, Murray, Keatley, JJ Hanrahan, Paddy Jackson etc would do for Irish rugby. Not saying they would all 'make it' but let's see.

isola ciarrai
9th-October-2011, 12:32
Ajay and Fritz might have a thing or two to say about those tax breaks in time yet. Who'd have thought the IMF would sort out the central contract system. All hail our prudent financial overlords!
Tax break essential as it can amount to a couple of years extra income when faced with the brute financial power of France. The huge pay back to BOD, ROG, Wally, etc kept them here. It compensates for the big bucks they turned down abroad, and avoided them being flogged like pit ponies - doubt that BOD would still be playing had he gone to France.
As for the overreliance on private fee paying schools it is true generally but look what St Munchins (old seminary/dioscesan school) with Earls, Ryan, Murray, Fla, Varley, even RWC ref Clancy and Ard Scoil Ris, 'Brothers' school with POC, Cronin and Sherry have achieved, as non fee paying schools. The lesson is that the IRFU must work harder on getting in to these type of schools even if only to link lads there to nearby clubs. It can be done.

Mcork
9th-October-2011, 14:38
I am reprising my old hit - bring back EOS into a technical role, and the most promising SH innovative but young coach who would need to earn spurs before stepping up ay home.


In theory, it could work but you'd have to have an EO'S without the ego and ambition or it would just undermine Deccie. EO'S would never settle for 'assistant'. We do need an attack coach though and really need to scour the planet for one.

busbi
9th-October-2011, 15:47
Tax break essential as it can amount to a couple of years extra income when faced with the brute financial power of France. The huge pay back to BOD, ROG, Wally, etc kept them here. It compensates for the big bucks they turned down abroad, and avoided them being flogged like pit ponies - doubt that BOD would still be playing had he gone to France.


Just to play devils advocate here for a second...

Would it have been the end of the world had those 3 players headed off the for the final 2 years or so of their career? They're still available to the national team, while replacements would have come through in those positions in Munster/Leinster, providing alternatives at international level. DOC was flirting with Stade 2 years ago, do you really think we wouldn't have been able to fill his boots here give his form in that time?

Look at NZ, where players in their late 20's/30's tend to head off the Europe of Japan, opening up the gaps for the fresher guys to come through.

Thomond78
9th-October-2011, 16:04
BOD, ROG, Wally; yes, we needed them.

I grant that in DOC's case, it's much harder to make the same argument.

kevin10
9th-October-2011, 18:57
12

Talking Sense
10th-October-2011, 08:04
The Churchill Cup in fairness is Magners standard. He couldnt defend against Russia and you want him to defend against Jamie Roberts? Give me strength. He's a good player but nothing more. And he aint a 12 at this level in my view.


The fact you had to explain this to Mcork is worrying, the churchill cup doesn't mean much. I think Spence is our best option at 12, strong lad.

overthehillprop
10th-October-2011, 09:17
The other thing is that the IRFU have to be happy to rebuild the squad. The message for the last number of years has been that the 6N's and world ranking points are more important to them and they have put pressure on successive coaches to win as many games as possible. They are also under pressure from other unions to bring their "star players" on summer tours and win AI games to fill the stadiums to keep the coffers full. Rebuilding may not be option for a coach unless the IRFU change their tune.

Blindsider.
10th-October-2011, 09:38
I would love to see this happen:

45 guys identifed as follows:

-IQ
-Under 25-26 y.o.

Bring them to Carton House for 1 week. Full-on training by the best coaches we have (including the provincial coaches - make it part of their contract.)

Send the 45 back to their clubs/provinces with clearly-defined goals.

Re-convene in June for another session and goal-appraisal.

Develop from there.

This way, we are identifying and developing talent at international level, and doing so early.

Also, the provincial academies need to be overhauled - e.g. do we need 4 academies - why not 2? And why not bring them all together every quarter for a 4-day session? We don't have the resources to do everything we'd like - let's focus more on quality.

overthehillprop
10th-October-2011, 09:59
I would love to see this happen:

45 guys identifed as follows:

-IQ
-Under 25-26 y.o.

Bring them to Carton House for 1 week. Full-on training by the best coaches we have (including the provincial coaches - make it part of their contract.)

Send the 45 back to their clubs/provinces with clearly-defined goals.

Re-convene in June for another session and goal-appraisal.

Develop from there.

This way, we are identifying and developing talent at international level, and doing so early.

Also, the provincial academies need to be overhauled - e.g. do we need 4 academies - why not 2? And why not bring them all together every quarter for a 4-day session? We don't have the resources to do everything we'd like - let's focus more on quality.

Currently a lot of the funding for the academy comes from outside the MB and the IRFU - especially through the MRSC. Would the MRSC or others be happy to provide funding to an academy where only a portion of the players would be available to Munster?

supiebrian
10th-October-2011, 10:35
Our plan for the 6Ns should revolve around the following selection questions; Cronin and Hagan must be tried in 1 or 2 games. Both Ross and particularly Best had good tournaments, however there was panic at the mere mention of either one being injured and so alternatives simply must be blooded now. Both are more dynamic than the current incumbents, however both Ross and Best at least of late seem to do the basics a little better. Wilkinson is an outside bet as a backup to Healy but 6N is probably a little soon for him.

Ryan, Touhy and potentially Nagel as an outside bet should also get a start at some stage. POC was back to his best and DOC did well except for the Welsh game, so while probably still the optimum answer, at least the likes of Touhy and Ryan should be getting a shot against the likes of Italy and France.

In the BR and assuming the 3 current incumbents are fit, then these three are the default selections, having said that there is a lot of depth in this area and the likes of Dom Ryan, Ruddock and POM could make there way into the squad. The groundhog issue also potentially opens the door for Faloon, although he seems to suffer from the same issue that Ronan suffers from in terms of a lack of the necessary size and bulk for this level.

SH is now Murray's to loose and the question now is whether TOL can ever recover his 09 form. Reddan to remain as back up.

Keatley may squeeze in as back up to Sexton if ROG hangs up his boots. Probably too soon for others.

Midfield is a huge problem and surely we will now see Darcy call it a day. We need to see Cave, Spence, Marshal and maybe Downey all given a run, potentially McFadden, Fitzy and Sexton could also be tried out at 12. I think BOD will stick around but again should be rested for half of the games, this means some of those mentioned already along with potentially Bowe and maybe Earls could also be tried there. Is it too soon for Barnes?

On the wing, potentially the other Kearney and maybe Zebo and Carr could also be considered, however like in the back row we do have a lot of strength in depth there at this moment in time.

Assuming Jones is fit then Kearney has a decent challenger and that can only be a good thing, I imagine Murphy will also be calling it a day.

As for those who will probably not wear green again; Horan, Hayes, MOD, Cullen, Toner, Ronan, Jennings, Boss, Darcy, P. Wallace, Horgan, Murphy and Duffy will surely never enter a squad again, and question marks must surround the involvement of BOD, ROG and Flannery due to injury.

All in all though I'd say the future is bright.


---
I am here: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=-33.856224,151.205528

Benji
10th-October-2011, 11:15
Ruddock looked decent at 7 last year too iirc?

Ruddock would never make a seven. I'd be more inclined to bulk him up and make him into a second row/blindside.
He hasnt the speed for 7 and Dom Ryan has the speed but both arent groundhogs like Jennings.

Blindsider.
10th-October-2011, 12:17
Currently a lot of the funding for the academy comes from outside the MB and the IRFU - especially through the MRSC. Would the MRSC or others be happy to provide funding to an academy where only a portion of the players would be available to Munster?

Any idea how much/what percentage?

EDIT: Found this...

13 Apr 2011

The Munster Rugby Supporters Club Chairman, Ian Buckley presented Academy Manager, Ian Sherwin, with a cheque to the value of €140,000 during half time at the Munster V Leinster game in Thomond Park Stadium on April 2nd. The cheque was a combination of the Supporters Club annual contribution to the Academy along with the proceeds of the 2010/11 Giant Draw.

€140K is a few salaries - a very useful contribution, but I'd say the Academies budget is a fair bit bigger!

If funding is the stumbling block, then change the funding into a centralised pot. It seems clear at this stage that the Munster Academy has not met expectations - time for a re-think!

There seems to be a strategic dis-connect WRT the Academies.

The provinces exist to supply players to the national squad - the 1st priority is the men in green according to Lansdowne Rd.

However, the Academies seem to be more autonomous - perhaps they shouldn't be. Perhaps the Academies should be centrally controlled and players allocated to different provinces according to needs.

It's controversial I know - but it's worth looking at - esp. if it means we can identify players more quickly and blood them younger.

We should alos be looking at getting rid of players sooner - we need to be more ruthless here. I won't name names (it's a bit unfair), but there are certain players in all provinces who need to be released.

breakfast roll
10th-October-2011, 12:24
Really think POM has the skills, power and pace to be an excellent 7. When Coughlan, Leamy and Ryan come back Munster may take a look at him there. He has been excellent at 6/8 this season but imo he has the skill set to be a 7.

Aussiedub
10th-October-2011, 13:25
We should be going into the 6Nations putting out teams like this in matches - mixing experience with youth and giving players experience and trying some people in new positions

Healy, Best, Hagan, Ryan, POC, SOB, D Ryan, Heaslip, Murray, Sexton, Earls, Downey, Bowe, Trimble, Kearney - Court, Strauss, Tuohy, Ferris, Reddan, Keatley, Luke

Wilkinson, Strauss, Ross, Ferris (give it a try), Tuohy, Leamy, Wallace, Ruddock, Reddan, Keatley, Kearney, Spense, Luke, Bowe, Jones - Court, Cronin, DOC, McLaughlin, TOL, Sexton, Carr

the plastic paddy
10th-October-2011, 13:40
You're the guy that said we would hammer Wales.:DThat is called being positive/ optimistic; you can find both words in a dictionary if you are looking for definitions. Given your posts on the subject of Ireland's rugby future maybe you think we should just pack it in to spare ourselves the heartache. It is so easy to be cynical and negative because when you are wrong no one gives a f*ck but when you are right you can say I told you so; brave Outlaw, very brave.

ustix
10th-October-2011, 16:18
I would love to see this happen:

45 guys identifed as follows:

-IQ
-Under 25-26 y.o.

Bring them to Carton House for 1 week. Full-on training by the best coaches we have (including the provincial coaches - make it part of their contract.)

Send the 45 back to their clubs/provinces with clearly-defined goals.

Re-convene in June for another session and goal-appraisal.

Develop from there.

This way, we are identifying and developing talent at international level, and doing so early.

Also, the provincial academies need to be overhauled - e.g. do we need 4 academies - why not 2? And why not bring them all together every quarter for a 4-day session? We don't have the resources to do everything we'd like - let's focus more on quality.
The HSE would love you BS

Blindsider.
10th-October-2011, 16:38
The HSE would love you BS

Is that a compliment or a...I dunno what?

ustix
10th-October-2011, 16:45
An observation or opinion is all it is, Blindsider, downsizing, efficiency and all that....

ustix
10th-October-2011, 17:04
Opening 6 nations fixture Feb 6 v Wales.

Healy Cronin Hagan
Tuohy O Connell
Ferris O'Brien Strauss
Murray Keatley
Trimble Spence Bowe Carr
Jones

We'd lick 'em.

Daithi
10th-October-2011, 17:20
BOD, ROG, Wally; yes, we needed them.

I grant that in DOC's case, it's much harder to make the same argument.

era come on. I hate all this DOC bashing that is going on. Granted at times he hasn't played to the levels we know he can (he's not alone there though Sexton, Darcy, Heaslip, Earls & Rog v Wales, etc, etc) but he is a test lion and a proven test match performer and does an amount of unseen work.

People only noticed him v Wales the other day cos he went down after he clashed like two bombing meteorites with Roberts (stopping him in his tracks doing so, may I add!!). he actually does this kind of brute work all of the time, is a magnificent lineout performer, a fabulous scrummager, a pest for opposition forwards at maul and ruck and a bloody hard worker- so by all means contructively criticise DOC for maybe his lack of carrying or whatever, but kindly don't hit a good man when he's down.

the plastic paddy
10th-October-2011, 17:44
Opening 6 nations fixture Feb 6 v Wales.

Healy Cronin Hagan
Tuohy O Connell
Ferris O'Brien Strauss
Murray Keatley
Trimble Spence Bowe Carr
Jones

We'd lick 'em.As always ustix, like your style. If strauss is going to be playing for Ireland actually think 7 is a really good option, believe he is a BR convert anyway. Think Keatley is the future (with Sexton); will keep the rows coming on here, keep epaddy amused and most importantly allow the self appointed oracle Outlaw to keep saying 'I told you so'. Lots to like about your team; I would probably swap Trimble with Bowe for no other reason than as many people who say that Mike Ross wasn't such and such a standard say the same about AT at 13: he scored one of the best individual tries I have ever seen from an Irishman in the HEC a couple of years ago against Bath, I think he is a much better footballer than people credit and his defence is generally excellent. Contrary to opinion I thought Kearney had a very good RWC, although his 1 on 1 tackling is not so great, but if Felix Jones can have a good run I don't believe DK would be able to omit him from his team. The more I think about it the more I hope DOC, ROG, D'Arcy and BOD call it a day, they owe their country nothing but 2015 has to be the plan now and while POC and Fez might have a chance of making it, the other fellas dont and it is time to start planning. POC and Fez will not make 2015 however if they go on the next lions tour so a decision has to made in that respect IMHO. Might start undermining Sky's sh*tty plans as well if people start questioning that particular franchise. Good team though Ustix, positive and forward looking.

ustix
10th-October-2011, 18:38
As always ustix, like your style. If strauss is going to be playing for Ireland actually think 7 is a really good option, believe he is a BR convert anyway. Think Keatley is the future (with Sexton); will keep the rows coming on here, keep epaddy amused and most importantly allow the self appointed oracle Outlaw to keep saying 'I told you so'. Lots to like about your team; I would probably swap Trimble with Bowe for no other reason than as many people who say that Mike Ross wasn't such and such a standard say the same about AT at 13: he scored one of the best individual tries I have ever seen from an Irishman in the HEC a couple of years ago against Bath, I think he is a much better footballer than people credit and his defence is generally excellent. Contrary to opinion I thought Kearney had a very good RWC, although his 1 on 1 tackling is not so great, but if Felix Jones can have a good run I don't believe DK would be able to omit him from his team. The more I think about it the more I hope DOC, ROG, D'Arcy and BOD call it a day, they owe their country nothing but 2015 has to be the plan now and while POC and Fez might have a chance of making it, the other fellas dont and it is time to start planning. POC and Fez will not make 2015 however if they go on the next lions tour so a decision has to made in that respect IMHO. Might start undermining Sky's sh*tty plans as well if people start questioning that particular franchise. Good team though Ustix, positive and forward looking.
Why thank you Sir.
Bench:
Best, Buckley, Nagle, Heaslip, Reddan, Sexton, BOD

McCloud
10th-October-2011, 18:41
What did Earls do to get dropped?

Call999
10th-October-2011, 19:02
What about JJ?

dropkick
10th-October-2011, 19:04
The IRFU system that we hear is the envy of the rest of the rugby world is also a massive noose around our necks when it comes to developing young players. IRFU interference in provincial selections, centrally contracted players having to be selected for HEC games, tax breaks meaning that as the players get older its more beneficial to stay in Ireland and clog up the competition for places rather than move on elsewhere, and from my own experience a provincial reliance on an extremely narrow number of fee paying schools for players rather than truly putting money and effort into expanding the game into underage at clubs and non traditional schools.

Good points made there. Its a positive overall but negative in some areas.

The Welsh have plenty of young players with Celtic league experience and that great for Wales while the young Irish players are blocked by older players especially in Munster and Leinster.

ustix
10th-October-2011, 19:05
What did Earls do to get dropped?
Nada, same for Kearney, D'Arcy, Flannery, Ross, Court, DOC.
What did Trimble do to get dropped?

McCloud
10th-October-2011, 19:11
Nada, same for Kearney, D'Arcy, Flannery, Ross, Court, DOC.
What did Trimble do to get dropped?

Earls scored 5 tries in the WC how many did Trimble score in the warm ups? Trimble is a good player don't get me wrong but I'd prefer to see Trimble tried out in the centre (he's played there a number of times for Ulster I believe?) and Bowe on the wing.

ustix
10th-October-2011, 19:13
Earls scored 5 tries in the WC how many did Trimble score in the warm ups? Trimble is a good player don't get me wrong but I'd prefer to see Trimble tried out in the centre (he's played there a number of times for Ulster I believe?) and Bowe on the wing.
I won't argue with that.

Blindsider.
10th-October-2011, 19:27
An observation or opinion is all it is, Blindsider, downsizing, efficiency and all that....

Grand so - it's meant as more of a stream-lining exercise, and re-alignment.

The provinces all feed into the national team and the academies are too far removed. Why have Kiss/Smal/Feek on board if they can't have an input.

Feek (and the scrum) has to be a case in point - he seems bloody good and i'm not sure we have the same level of expertise available elsewhere - we need to use him more.

I know that th provincial thing becomes a problem - but this is the national tema we're talking about - the IRFU's top priority.

Negative talk like "It'd never work" is just defeatist - we didn't win Heineken Cups thinking like that.

Our current system is NOT working - so it needs to be changed...the sooner the better.

The Outlaw
10th-October-2011, 19:29
Grand so - it's meant as more of a stream-lining exercise, and re-alignment.

The provinces all feed into the national team and the academies are too far removed. Why have Kiss/Smal/Feek on board if they can't have an input.

Feek (and the scrum) has to be a case in point - he seems bloody good and i'm not sure we have the same level of expertise available elsewhere - we need to use him more.

I know that th provincial thing becomes a problem - but this is the national tema we're talking about - the IRFU's top priority.

Negative talk like "It'd never work" is just defeatist - we didn't win Heineken Cups thinking like that.

Our current system is NOT working - so it needs to be changed...the sooner the better.

the problem is the provincial fans wont wear it.

All the best coaches in the welsh system work with the national side.

In Ireland they don't.

And never will.

ustix
10th-October-2011, 19:47
the problem is the provincial fans wont wear it.

All the best coaches in the welsh system work with the national side.

In Ireland they don't.

And never will.
Trite and all as it sounds, never say never. It's professional sport we're talking about, ruled from on high to below.
Is Mr. Griffin of the wild west that good?

Blindsider.
10th-October-2011, 20:07
the problem is the provincial fans wont wear it.

All the best coaches in the welsh system work with the national side.

In Ireland they don't.

And never will.

Outlaw - not directing this at you, but this 'Never' attitude bugs the hell outa me.

If coaches (Academy) are re-applying for their jobs, as has happened recently, then they will work with whatever team they're told to work with.

(I don't mean to be too bolshie, but the system needs to be fixed.)

The Outlaw
10th-October-2011, 21:33
Outlaw - not directing this at you, but this 'Never' attitude bugs the hell outa me.

If coaches (Academy) are re-applying for their jobs, as has happened recently, then they will work with whatever team they're told to work with.

(I don't mean to be too bolshie, but the system needs to be fixed.)

Blindsider as a Connacht fan the word never probably comes easier to me.

But I've seen a lifetime of provincial concerns dominate the IRFU to the detriment of the national side. The perception is we cant compete at World Cup level.

The reality is we can. We just dont give ourselves any chance with our system. If we can get this close with a poor system think of how good we'd be with the focus on producing a good national side.

Thomond78
10th-October-2011, 21:59
era come on. I hate all this DOC bashing that is going on. Granted at times he hasn't played to the levels we know he can (he's not alone there though Sexton, Darcy, Heaslip, Earls & Rog v Wales, etc, etc) but he is a test lion and a proven test match performer and does an amount of unseen work.

People only noticed him v Wales the other day cos he went down after he clashed like two bombing meteorites with Roberts (stopping him in his tracks doing so, may I add!!). he actually does this kind of brute work all of the time, is a magnificent lineout performer, a fabulous scrummager, a pest for opposition forwards at maul and ruck and a bloody hard worker- so by all means contructively criticise DOC for maybe his lack of carrying or whatever, but kindly don't hit a good man when he's down.

He's 32, and the effectiveness is dropping off fast. DR is now the age DOC was at his best. It's DR's time. He does the same work DOC does, but the difference is, when he hits it now, he hits it with the same effect DOC used have.

It's not hitting a man when he's down; it's realism. Age sucks, but pretending it doesn't happen to us all is pointless.

The Outlaw
10th-October-2011, 22:26
He's 32, and the effectiveness is dropping off fast. DR is now the age DOC was at his best. It's DR's time. He does the same work DOC does, but the difference is, when he hits it now, he hits it with the same effect DOC used have.

It's not hitting a man when he's down; it's realism. Age sucks, but pretending it doesn't happen to us all is pointless.

the argument was always that donncha ryan was more like POC then DOC in terms of the position of the second rows. Not a theory I agreed with most Munster fans were adamant about it

Thomond78
10th-October-2011, 23:31
the argument was always that donncha ryan was more like POC then DOC in terms of the position of the second rows. Not a theory I agreed with most Munster fans were adamant about it

Guys develop. At the moment, he has the pace of a six or a hybrid rower, with the impact of a TH lock - and, especially, superb scrummaging (it's noticeable the difference he makes). If you want one player whom he resembles in those respect, I'd say Danie Roussouw.

supiebrian
11th-October-2011, 05:34
Guys develop. At the moment, he has the pace of a six or a hybrid rower, with the impact of a TH lock - and, especially, superb scrummaging (it's noticeable the difference he makes). If you want one player whom he resembles in those respect, I'd say Danie Roussouw.

Not as strong or powerful as Roussouw though... His build is more akin to POC/Matfield than Roussouw/Thorn/DOC and the only question mark now in relation to Ryan is whether that might work against him at this the highest level. I still see Touhy more in that enforcer role, and build wise he would seem to have that required upper body strength that Ryan seems to lack. I think a Touhy Ryan second row for at least 2 of the 6N games would be good to see.


---
I am here: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=-33.889880,151.232532

Talking Sense
11th-October-2011, 07:58
I personally don't think Sean Cronin is upto it, pace aside I just dont see it and can't see him getting ahead of Strauss, Sherry is better than Cronin for me. Think touhy and Ryan deserve starts, v dynamic rows, also like to see heaslip dropped, sob at 8 and POM or Dom Ryan at 7, all for the Italy game.

Also think paddy mac should get brought in to be our backup LH, he's a beast, could improve under feek.

the plastic paddy
11th-October-2011, 08:29
I personally don't think Sean Cronin is upto it, pace aside I just dont see it and can't see him getting ahead of Strauss, Sherry is better than Cronin for me. Think touhy and Ryan deserve starts, v dynamic rows, also like to see heaslip dropped, sob at 8 and POM or Dom Ryan at 7, all for the Italy game.

Also think paddy mac should get brought in to be our backup LH, he's a beast, could improve under feek.Is Feek now with the IRFU or is he back with Leinster? I think he should be working fulltime with all the Irish Front rowers down to youngsters like Furlong so we can be in a situation by 2015 whereby there is not one NIQ front rower being paid to play in the Island of Ireland; Bull should be in the set up coaching the young fellas in the mechanics of the line out lift as well. We need 12 FRs who would be able to hold their own in the tight if called up to play against Italy, Argentina, France, England or SA; we can never again go into a RWC with only 2 props who can even be relied upon to handle Russia FFS.

Benji
11th-October-2011, 08:33
When people are looking at the Outhalf slot in the future, I think Madigan has really improved his game this year and could push Keating for the second spot.
His been the difference in a few games so far with some great passing and running.

Thomond78
11th-October-2011, 09:53
Not as strong or powerful as Roussouw though... His build is more akin to POC/Matfield than Roussouw/Thorn/DOC and the only question mark now in relation to Ryan is whether that might work against him at this the highest level. I still see Touhy more in that enforcer role, and build wise he would seem to have that required upper body strength that Ryan seems to lack. I think a Touhy Ryan second row for at least 2 of the 6N games would be good to see.


---
I am here: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=-33.889880,151.232532

Right now, DR's doing just fine in contact. For the last six months, anyone trying to go down a channel where DR is gets absolutely hammered. Add in that he scrummages like a TH lock and the evidence is; whatever his build, he's doing the job.

dropkick
11th-October-2011, 14:46
As good as DR is DOC will be ahead of him still for Munster. Hes one of the untouchables. Even if DOC isn't ahead of him MOD will probably be. It was a joke last year when DR got dropped after the lineout malfunctioned against London Irish.

At outhalf, Madigan is playing well for Leinster and Keatley is playing well for Munster. They both offer running threats but both need to work on their kicking out of hand. The management need to decide what style of play they want and pick the players that suits that style.

They should be looking at the likes of Spence, Griffen, O'Malley etc for playing center. Griffen looks a solid player with decent skills and speed. Spence too could be worth a look at. Try Tommy Bowe there too. Hes a good winger but we ave plenty of wingers and not enough quality in midfield.

Mcork
11th-October-2011, 19:23
Deccie should have a word with the provincial coaches to make sure that the younger talented players get more of the tight calls especially in the magners when up against older and niq players. Ian Nagle should be ahead of micko at this stage. That he isn't is bad for both munster and irl. Are munster mgmt concerned that the inexperience might cost us games? Oh wait.....
Seriously though guys like Nagle will not develop without serious gametime.

The Outlaw
11th-October-2011, 22:22
Deccie should have a word with the provincial coaches to make sure that the younger talented players get more of the tight calls especially in the magners when up against older and niq players. Ian Nagle should be ahead of micko at this stage. That he isn't is bad for both munster and irl. Are munster mgmt concerned that the inexperience might cost us games? Oh wait.....
Seriously though guys like Nagle will not develop without serious gametime.

Its professional sport not everyone is good enough. Under your model you'd retire everyone at 27.

ormond lad
11th-October-2011, 23:23
Right now, DR's doing just fine in contact. For the last six months, anyone trying to go down a channel where DR is gets absolutely hammered. Add in that he scrummages like a TH lock and the evidence is; whatever his build, he's doing the job.
He is doing the job.Always has been one of our better 2nd rows in the scrum. From what ive seen of him this season so far and the end of last season was how when he comes on he really ups the tempo and gets people going.
Donnacha was in Nenagh tonight and said a few interesting things like he cant wait to get back training tomorrow and really hit a few bags(seemed really up for playing a game)

supiebrian
12th-October-2011, 08:42
I have no doubt that DR is very capable in a number of areas and a top notch second rower. My comment was more in response to a suggestion that DR was similar to the more robust physical type of second rower and in particular Rossouw. That maybe in how he plays the game, however it would seem that he is giving up a fair few kilos with respect to Rossouw and others. According to "official" channels DR comes in at 108kg and that seems about right, however interestingly on the RWC site he is down as 116kg I believe. Irrespective of all of that I think he is due a decent run with both Munster and Ireland, and I think he brings an aggression and style that suits our forward pack and approach. In fact and as I said earlier, I would love to see himself and Touhy start at least 2 6N games and "raise hell" between them.

Mcork
12th-October-2011, 17:43
Its professional sport not everyone is good enough. Under your model you'd retire everyone at 27. Rubbish. When an older player i.e +32 is no longer obviously better than a younger player, then there should be a preference for the player that can still get better. In no ones world, is micko obviously better than Nagle. We don't like young players, don't trust them. In Oz it's almost the opposite with Wales in between. We have to have more young players coming through constantly. If that means the likes of micko or s. Horgan retiring or moving to France earlier, than that is a price we should be willing to pay.

overthehillprop
12th-October-2011, 18:11
Rubbish. When an older player i.e +32 is no longer obviously better than a younger player, then there should be a preference for the player that can still get better. In no ones world, is micko obviously better than Nagle. We don't like young players, don't trust them. In Oz it's almost the opposite with Wales in between. We have to have more young players coming through constantly. If that means the likes of micko or s. Horgan retiring or moving to France earlier, than that is a price we should be willing to pay.

And thats where the tax break clogs up the system. Older players tend not to move on as they get more through the tax break than a larger salary abroad. Remove the tax break and players may head off when they are in their prime. Catch 22.

Mcork
12th-October-2011, 18:21
True othp but it doesn't mean the provinces have to offer extended contracts and even if they do to have cover in their squad, it doesn't mean they have toto pick them ahead of the young player when faced with the choice.

The Outlaw
12th-October-2011, 18:55
Rubbish. When an older player i.e +32 is no longer obviously better than a younger player, then there should be a preference for the player that can still get better. In no ones world, is micko obviously better than Nagle. We don't like young players, don't trust them. In Oz it's almost the opposite with Wales in between. We have to have more young players coming through constantly. If that means the likes of micko or s. Horgan retiring or moving to France earlier, than that is a price we should be willing to pay.

Thats fine .POC to retire then so as well.. He's 32. thats where your theory runs aground.

Ricky Samo is mid-30's at least and he made his debut this year for Oz. Professional sport there are no birth certs. The big problem you cant get your head round is the low standard of Irish underage players. The good ones like Murray always break through . Why?

Because they are good enough. The others don't for the opposite reason. I just dont see this superstar quality with Nagle to be honest. Not a patch on Donncha Ryan at the same age in my view. If they are good enough they break through unless they have an outstanding player ahead of them (rare enough in Ireland). Then they should go elsewhere. thats the real failing in the system- not older players.

Cadroc
12th-October-2011, 19:00
Thats fine .POC to retire then so as well.. He's 32. thats where your theory runs aground.

Ricky Samo is mid-30's at least and he made his debut this year for Oz. Professional sport there are no birth certs. The big problem you cant get your head round is the low standard of Irish underage players. The good ones like Murray always break through . Why?

Because they are good enough. The others don't for the opposite reason. I just dont see this superstar quality with Nagle to be honest. Not a patch on Donncha Ryan at the same age in my view. If they are good enough they break through unless they have an outstanding player ahead of them (rare enough in Ireland). Then they should go elsewhere. thats the real failing in the system- not older players.

"When an older player i.e +32 is no longer obviously better than a younger player," would be the key quote in the post you quoted. Show me a person who thinks Nagle is as good as POC and I'll show you someone who needs to keep their day job. POC has completely turned up the level he plays at this world cup. No other Irish secondrow matches his influence in a match at the minute.

tickettout
12th-October-2011, 19:02
We don't have the players to rebuild - our target shold be to win a G/S / championship in the next 2 years. We're capable of that.

The only obvious changes to the team I'd like to see is at 12, 4 and possibly 7.

the plastic paddy
12th-October-2011, 19:48
And thats where the tax break clogs up the system. Older players tend not to move on as they get more through the tax break than a larger salary abroad. Remove the tax break and players may head off when they are in their prime. Catch 22.Good post OTHP. Any accountants on here got a solution? Looking at the sh*te hitting the fan at the English RFU things could be a lot worse! But catch 22 situation it certainly is.

Thomond78
12th-October-2011, 20:12
Thats fine .POC to retire then so as well.. He's 32. thats where your theory runs aground.

Ricky Samo is mid-30's at least and he made his debut this year for Oz. Professional sport there are no birth certs. The big problem you cant get your head round is the low standard of Irish underage players. The good ones like Murray always break through . Why?

Because they are good enough. The others don't for the opposite reason. I just dont see this superstar quality with Nagle to be honest. Not a patch on Donncha Ryan at the same age in my view. If they are good enough they break through unless they have an outstanding player ahead of them (rare enough in Ireland). Then they should go elsewhere. thats the real failing in the system- not older players.

Radike Samo's test debut was in 2004. It was, in fact, a cause célèbre about poaching.

The Outlaw
12th-October-2011, 20:17
We don't have the players to rebuild - our target shold be to win a G/S / championship in the next 2 years. We're capable of that.

The only obvious changes to the team I'd like to see is at 12, 4 and possibly 7.

Exactly the point. People here think one Good Schools Campaign = stardom.

We could win a 6 nations in the next 2 years with this team. Mickey mouse around with it like some are suggesting and we'll be picking up the pension before we do a GS again.

dropkick
12th-October-2011, 20:50
Wales dropped half their squad for a bunch of unknowns and its proved to be a masterstroke by Gatland. It hasn't weakened them only made them stronger.

I think there needs to be changes to freshen up the team. The new backs coach could play a big part in selection if he is let.

busbi
12th-October-2011, 20:50
Exactly the point. People here think one Good Schools Campaign = stardom.

We could win a 6 nations in the next 2 years with this team. Mickey mouse around with it like some are suggesting and we'll be picking up the pension before we do a GS again.

I remember the exact same garbage being spoken after the last World Cup, about it being the golden generation and that we'd never have as good a team again. The fact is that we replaced most of that generation already, and in most cases replaced with better players imho. Looking at the team the last day, it's very easy to see us replacing DOC with Ryan or Thouhy and ROG with Sexton straight off, both calls that could even have been made during the tournament. After that, there are 3 positions we need to look at, 12, 13 and 7. No there are not glaring options right now, but that's not to say the next 3 months won't throw up a few.

That's not mickey mousing around with the team, that's the proper continual development of a team. This is a discussion that would be taking place had we won the bloody thing.

overthehillprop
12th-October-2011, 21:53
True othp but it doesn't mean the provinces have to offer extended contracts and even if they do to have cover in their squad, it doesn't mean they have toto pick them ahead of the young player when faced with the choice.

thats only true to an extent. In a lot of cases the extended contracts are not offered by the provinces. Mushy being a prime example of a centrally contracted player being forced upon us by the IRFU and when he was let go by the IRFU he wasn't given a contract at provincial level. The IRFU still have considerable influence on the teams the provinces put out.

The Outlaw
12th-October-2011, 22:11
I remember the exact same garbage being spoken after the last World Cup, about it being the golden generation and that we'd never have as good a team again. The fact is that we replaced most of that generation already, and in most cases replaced with better players imho. Looking at the team the last day, it's very easy to see us replacing DOC with Ryan or Thouhy and ROG with Sexton straight off, both calls that could even have been made during the tournament. After that, there are 3 positions we need to look at, 12, 13 and 7. No there are not glaring options right now, but that's not to say the next 3 months won't throw up a few.

That's not mickey mousing around with the team, that's the proper continual development of a team. This is a discussion that would be taking place had we won the bloody thing.

With respect if you red the thread some people want to dismantle the team. The bulk of 2007 won the GS in 2009 people forget that. Because we dont have a conveyor belt of talent contrary to popular opinion.

busbi
12th-October-2011, 22:55
With respect if you red the thread some people want to dismantle the team. The bulk of 2007 won the GS in 2009 people forget that. Because we dont have a conveyor belt of talent contrary to popular opinion.

From the 2007 team, Heaslip, Ferris, Bowe, Kearney, TOL and Fitzgeard came into the team from (Ferris aside) being outside the World Cup Squad and were central to that victory, so if anything your tearing your own argument apart there. We won't be winning any GS unless we bring players in for a few positions over the next seasons or two. The sooner the better imho.

McCloud
12th-October-2011, 23:01
From the 2007 team, Heaslip, Ferris, Bowe, Kearney, TOL and Fitzgeard came into the team from (Ferris aside) being outside the World Cup Squad and were central to that victory, so if anything your tearing your own argument apart there. We won't be winning any GS unless we bring players in for a few positions over the next seasons or two. The sooner the better imho.

Yup agree. Is the sum total of our ambition to win the GS again? No thought of really wanting to compete at the WC or even win it?

No wonder the SH is so far a head of us. This we just need to have one big game a season is killing us and let down a lot of players. If your not building for the top prize in four years time the minute you are knocked out of the last one then you have no ambition.

budgetwinger
13th-October-2011, 07:42
With respect if you red the thread some people want to dismantle the team. The bulk of 2007 won the GS in 2009 people forget that. Because we dont have a conveyor belt of talent contrary to popular opinion.

But on the other hand we kept the core of the 2003/2004 side together in a bid to win the 2005 6N - ignoring calls for DOC to come in for Mal, Horan for Corrigan, Leamy played only one game, Wally was left out (but then this was back in the days when it seemed you couldn't pay EOS to pick him), etc. etc.

End result? We were badly exposed by France and a Welsh team that gave youth its head won the GS. The next year those players were finally given their chance, our pack went from being stagnant to being hugely dynamic, and we won our second triple crown.

The core of this side will be around for a while, but keeping players in simply to keep the side settled and go for 6N titles is a risky business, IMHO.

the plastic paddy
13th-October-2011, 08:16
I remember the exact same garbage being spoken after the last World Cup, about it being the golden generation and that we'd never have as good a team again. The fact is that we replaced most of that generation already, and in most cases replaced with better players imho. Looking at the team the last day, it's very easy to see us replacing DOC with Ryan or Thouhy and ROG with Sexton straight off, both calls that could even have been made during the tournament. After that, there are 3 positions we need to look at, 12, 13 and 7. No there are not glaring options right now, but that's not to say the next 3 months won't throw up a few.

That's not mickey mousing around with the team, that's the proper continual development of a team. This is a discussion that would be taking place had we won the bloody thing.Could not agree more. This post dovetails well with RHH on the other rune picking thread. If DOC is still the viable option people say he is then playing Ryan/ Tuohy as an experiment against Italy or scotland won't be a threat to his jersey. Why not try it out and if it doesn't work DOC can come back in. Same could apply to Hagan and Ross; we have to have more than 1 prop on each side so lets experiment, Ross is always there and we know that.

While D'Arcy did not have the disastrous RWC campaign that some claim we simply cannot ignore the fact that along with the mythical groundhog, todays game is best played with a 12 in the mould of Nonu, Roberts, JdeV, Mermoz etc. I have watched a fair bit of Spense and would say he is well worth a try at 12. I would also like to see Downey involved in the short term( know he is no spring Chicken) just to see how we get on with a big fella with long levers offloading as he does for Northampton, doubtless the standard experts will wail that he is not good enough but if we don't try it out how will we definitively know? If the experiment with Downey/ Spense was to work, would it be worth experimenting with converting one of the myriad 6/8s in the Irish game to see if they could do a job at 12? I don't see too much wrong with D'Arcy moving to his natural position of 13 for a couple of years either if BODs injury finishes his career, not something I hope for by the way. Another option at 13 is Trimble and I would say that would be well worth a try.

The main thing is that things need to be tried out, not dismissed because the standards experts decree that so and so is not good enough. Play them and if they are not good enough then we know they are not good enough. This years 6 nations with Eng and France away is unlikely to result in a GS. However, with Italy and Scotland at home it represents an opportunity to experiment.

Blindsider.
13th-October-2011, 09:47
It seems to me that the top 6-8 teams now develop their squads and teams around the RWC. Everything else is secondary. 6Nations, 4Nations etc etc are all nice interim goals, but it's the RWC that counts.

Trouncing France in the 6N in 2012 would be facile - they don't care (they won't admit it, but they don't!) as long as they are building towards RWC2015.

Would you swap our last GS for a place in Saturday's semi, where we were 16-14 behind to France with 10 mins to go? I would!!!!

From now on, I think our approach to players, squads, teams and coaches must be much more focused on the RWC - beating ENG in Twickenham counts for naught, unless you can replicate that form where it really matters - and it mattered last Saturday.

Cowboy
13th-October-2011, 10:05
It seems to me that the top 6-8 teams now develop their squads and teams around the RWC. Everything else is secondary. 6Nations, 4Nations etc etc are all nice interim goals, but it's the RWC that counts.

Trouncing France in the 6N in 2012 would be facile - they don't care (they won't admit it, but they don't!) as long as they are building towards RWC2015.

Would you swap our last GS for a place in Saturday's semi, where we were 16-14 behind to France with 10 mins to go? I would!!!!

From now on, I think our approach to players, squads, teams and coaches must be much more focused on the RWC - beating ENG in Twickenham counts for naught, unless you can replicate that form where it really matters - and it mattered last Saturday.

Great post, and you can add bolstering our 30 to carry injuries as well. We should be blooding players now for RWC2015 and get as many to the test level as possible.

Mcork
13th-October-2011, 19:18
Thats fine .POC to retire then so as well.. He's 32. thats where your theory runs to ground That post sums you up pretty well. You don't have a clue, do you?i dont think that there is another poster on this site as skilled at missing the point whether it is intentional or otherwise.

the plastic paddy
13th-October-2011, 20:25
Yup agree. Is the sum total of our ambition to win the GS again? No thought of really wanting to compete at the WC or even win it?

No wonder the SH is so far a head of us. This we just need to have one big game a season is killing us and let down a lot of players. If your not building for the top prize in four years time the minute you are knocked out of the last one then you have no ambition.+1 and we have the players in spite of what the Oracle likes to tell everybody. We need to alter the focus to sharpen everything towards 2015 NOW rather than 18 months before as with the 2011 campaign.

dropkick
13th-October-2011, 22:20
You could also say that the Irish players are carrying more baggage than most teams. They've under performed in every world cup and only won 1 six nations despite having one of the best records. No matter how you look at it they've still managed to blow it on numerous occasions. As well as that, winning 1 from the last 12 against France is shocking statistic and whats worse was the manner of some of those defeats.

A few changes and a clean slate will be good for the squad. Revolution is sometimes better than evolution.

The Outlaw
13th-October-2011, 22:58
That post sums you up pretty well. You don't have a clue, do you?i dont think that there is another poster on this site as skilled at missing the point whether it is intentional or otherwise.

Mcork youre the one who hasnt a clue. As I said you're the only one who thinks Mc Fadden is an international class 12. I'm sure you'll be down at the munster schools cup with gusto telling us every tom ,dick or harry who scores a try will be an international!!

We have very few players capable of replacing the same crew to the same standard at the moment and you can quote me on that- because I wont be wrong. Down the line there is hope with guys like Luke Mc Grath, Furlong and Co. real talent.

The Grand Slams are what we can win under the current system and whats coming through..

To do well in world cups you have to smash the current priority leinster and munster have and put the priority towards the national team by putting the best coaches in the national unit and out of the provincial scene. like Wales have done. That means Feek, Johnno Gibbes and Schmidt work with the national side and nobody else.

You also remove the tax break thus allowing guys at 27/28 to go abroad and make money. Then your younger players get into the provincial side. A far less successful provincial side but nevertheless they will get experience. A lot of these probably wont be up to it initially but eventually 3-4 years down the road you'll get a talented crop who will end up starting for their provinces at 20-21 and then boom it all takes off. The provinces will get successful again. All of a sudden you have a wider base of players at national level to pick from. You have the cream of the older guys playing abroad and you have the young talented bucks.


The rest of the debate is all coffee table magazine at the dentist bull****. In the abscence of the above Grand Slams are our ambition. I cant ever see the provinces or the IRFU wearing the above. But be under no illusions mcork- you want to do well in World Cups the above has to happen. Would you wear your province having a few barren years? Not a bloody chance.

McCloud
13th-October-2011, 23:42
Oh dear a bitter Connacht supporter..

Fetcher
14th-October-2011, 06:07
POSSIBLE IRELAND SQUAD FOR ENGLAND 2015
Full-backs: Rob Kearney (http://searchtopics.independent.ie/topic/Rob_Kearney), Felix Jones WINGS: Tommy Bowe (http://searchtopics.independent.ie/topic/Tommy_Bowe), Andrew Trimble, Fionn Carr, Andrew Conway
Centres: Luke Fitzgerald, Keith Earls (http://searchtopics.independent.ie/topic/Keith_Earls), Fergus McFadden (http://searchtopics.independent.ie/topic/Fergus_McFadden), Nevin Spence
Out-halves: Jonny Sexton, Paddy Jackson
Scrum-halves: Conor Murray, Tomas O'Leary
Props: Brett Wilkinson, Cian Healy (http://searchtopics.independent.ie/topic/Cian_Healy), Mike Ross, Jamie Hagan
Hookers: Rory Best (http://searchtopics.independent.ie/topic/Rory_Best), Sean Cronin, Damien Varley
Second-rows: Paul O'Connell, Devin Toner, Ian Nagle, Donnacha Ryan
Back-rows: Stephen Ferris (http://searchtopics.independent.ie/topic/Stephen_Ferris_%28footballer%29), Sean O'Brien, Rhys Ruddock, Peter O'Mahony, Jamie Heaslip (http://searchtopics.independent.ie/topic/Jamie_Heaslip).
- Tony Ward

Don't know if anyone else has posted this but this Tony Ward's squad for 2015. Continues with the tradition of under weight centres and no real no. 7. Would like to see O'Mahony tried at seven rather than at 6 or 8. Supposedly the Melbourne Rebels were very impressed by Dominic Ryan in their preseason friendly. Predicting a squad this far out is slightly pointless anyway but it's a little interesting nonetheless.

supiebrian
14th-October-2011, 06:57
It seems to me that the top 6-8 teams now develop their squads and teams around the RWC. Everything else is secondary. 6Nations, 4Nations etc etc are all nice interim goals, but it's the RWC that counts.

Trouncing France in the 6N in 2012 would be facile - they don't care (they won't admit it, but they don't!) as long as they are building towards RWC2015.

Would you swap our last GS for a place in Saturday's semi, where we were 16-14 behind to France with 10 mins to go? I would!!!!

From now on, I think our approach to players, squads, teams and coaches must be much more focused on the RWC - beating ENG in Twickenham counts for naught, unless you can replicate that form where it really matters - and it mattered last Saturday.

Great post and I agree 100%!

dropkick
14th-October-2011, 09:49
POSSIBLE IRELAND SQUAD FOR ENGLAND 2015
Full-backs: Rob Kearney (http://searchtopics.independent.ie/topic/Rob_Kearney), Felix Jones WINGS: Tommy Bowe (http://searchtopics.independent.ie/topic/Tommy_Bowe), Andrew Trimble, Fionn Carr, Andrew Conway
Centres: Luke Fitzgerald, Keith Earls (http://searchtopics.independent.ie/topic/Keith_Earls), Fergus McFadden (http://searchtopics.independent.ie/topic/Fergus_McFadden), Nevin Spence
Out-halves: Jonny Sexton, Paddy Jackson
Scrum-halves: Conor Murray, Tomas O'Leary
Props: Brett Wilkinson, Cian Healy (http://searchtopics.independent.ie/topic/Cian_Healy), Mike Ross, Jamie Hagan
Hookers: Rory Best (http://searchtopics.independent.ie/topic/Rory_Best), Sean Cronin, Damien Varley
Second-rows: Paul O'Connell, Devin Toner, Ian Nagle, Donnacha Ryan
Back-rows: Stephen Ferris (http://searchtopics.independent.ie/topic/Stephen_Ferris_(footballer)), Sean O'Brien, Rhys Ruddock, Peter O'Mahony, Jamie Heaslip (http://searchtopics.independent.ie/topic/Jamie_Heaslip).
- Tony Ward

Don't know if anyone else has posted this but this Tony Ward's squad for 2015. Continues with the tradition of under weight centres and no real no. 7. Would like to see O'Mahony tried at seven rather than at 6 or 8. Supposedly the Melbourne Rebels were very impressed by Dominic Ryan in their preseason friendly. Predicting a squad this far out is slightly pointless anyway but it's a little interesting nonetheless.

I thought Tony Ward would know more about the underage players coming through.

From what I've seen of the following players, it wouldn't surprise me if most of them were in the 2015 squad. Gilroy, L Marshall, JJ Hanrahan, Chris Farrell (Ulster 12, Ireland U18 last season), Luke McGrath, Cathal O'Flaherty, E Griffin, Tiernan O'Halloran, T Furlong. There'll be others to emerge too like SOB has.

Of TW's squad I don't think the following will be in the 2015 squad. Kearney, Carr, McFadden, TOL, Wilkinson, Ross, Varley, Ferris (early retirement). Not sure about Ruddock, Spence, Jones, Toner, Cronin or even Heaslip either. Nagle will have to put ona few KGs too.

Daithi
14th-October-2011, 13:14
[QUOTE=Blindsider.;972285]It seems to me that the top 6-8 teams now develop their squads and teams around the RWC. Everything else is secondary. 6Nations, 4Nations etc etc are all nice interim goals, but it's the RWC that counts.

Trouncing France in the 6N in 2012 would be facile - they don't care (they won't admit it, but they don't!) as long as they are building towards RWC2015.

Would you swap our last GS for a place in Saturday's semi, where we were 16-14 behind to France with 10 mins to go? I would!!!!

From now on, I think our approach to players, squads, teams and coaches must be much more focused on the RWC - beating ENG in Twickenham counts for naught, unless you can replicate that form where it really matters - and it mattered last Saturday.[/QUOTE


But it's only through winning championships, grand slams, triple c rowns (though there are some here who consider these valueless!?) and heineken cups that you develop the rugby, discipline and winning habit s in the first place.

Then when your teams are successful in these tournaments you can go to a world cup with a squad who are used to dogging it out in must win international tournaments which Imho is the best prep for a world cup bid. On top of this the coach can use the ais and summer tours to blood players and bring through guys to assist in the evolution of the team. This is the way England evolved for winning the world cup in 2003. One of the reasons given for Ireland's strong showing v Aus was that th the Irish players are more used to knock out rugby, as opposed to bonus point league, try chasing rugby.

If Ireland ever want to win a Rwc, they are going to have to learn to regularly win in cauldrons such as Twickenham, Paris, Eden Park, Melbourne, etc, etc. So far from counting for nought, in fact it's through winning in these type of hostile environments in international tests that will enable them to be able to contemplate being a contender for a Rwc in the first place Imho.

Blindsider.
14th-October-2011, 14:47
[QUOTE=Blindsider.;972285]It seems to me that the top 6-8 teams now develop their squads and teams around the RWC. Everything else is secondary. 6Nations, 4Nations etc etc are all nice interim goals, but it's the RWC that counts.

Trouncing France in the 6N in 2012 would be facile - they don't care (they won't admit it, but they don't!) as long as they are building towards RWC2015.

Would you swap our last GS for a place in Saturday's semi, where we were 16-14 behind to France with 10 mins to go? I would!!!!

From now on, I think our approach to players, squads, teams and coaches must be much more focused on the RWC - beating ENG in Twickenham counts for naught, unless you can replicate that form where it really matters - and it mattered last Saturday.[/QUOTE


But it's only through winning championships, grand slams, triple c rowns (though there are some here who consider these valueless!?) and heineken cups that you develop the rugby, discipline and winning habit s in the first place.

Then when your teams are successful in these tournaments you can go to a world cup with a squad who are used to dogging it out in must win international tournaments which Imho is the best prep for a world cup bid. On top of this the coach can use the ais and summer tours to blood players and bring through guys to assist in the evolution of the team. This is the way England evolved for winning the world cup in 2003. One of the reasons given for Ireland's strong showing v Aus was that th the Irish players are more used to knock out rugby, as opposed to bonus point league, try chasing rugby.

If Ireland ever want to win a Rwc, they are going to have to learn to regularly win in cauldrons such as Twickenham, Paris, Eden Park, Melbourne, etc, etc. So far from counting for nought, in fact it's through winning in these type of hostile environments in international tests that will enable them to be able to contemplate being a contender for a Rwc in the first place Imho.

Daithi - no question about that. My point was that winning in Paris cannot be seen as the end-goal. It's only a stepping-stone to greater things. We have to lose the mentality that winning away or winning trophies is good enough. It isn't!.

We need a coherent plan from now to RWC 2015. That includes re-building and suffering a few scoreboard losses in order to build a team that will get us to tomorrow at 0900.

NZ, Oz, Eng, France and Wales are all operating from RWC to RWC - they may have advantages in terms of player numbers or budgets etc, but we need to stop kidding ourselves that the RWC preparation starts in November 2014 - it doesn't - it starts now.

A younger player on the fringes should immediately oust an older player who will not make 2015. What's the point in playing a 33 y.o in next yrs 6N? Get the young guy in and blood him now - look at cian Healy - he has had 2 tough yrs and is now making progress - if he can keep developing he will yet be a very good player, and fair play to him.

ROG wants to stay on and I can't blame him, but Sexton has to be our starting 10 - and we stick with him unless e.g. Keatley or whoever. (We'll need two 10's so both will need game)

Interim victories are fine, but let's not forget the real goal - it's 4 yrs away!

Balla Boy
14th-October-2011, 14:48
It seems to me that the top 6-8 teams now develop their squads and teams around the RWC. Everything else is secondary. 6Nations, 4Nations etc etc are all nice interim goals, but it's the RWC that counts.

Trouncing France in the 6N in 2012 would be facile - they don't care (they won't admit it, but they don't!) as long as they are building towards RWC2015.

Would you swap our last GS for a place in Saturday's semi, where we were 16-14 behind to France with 10 mins to go? I would!!!!

From now on, I think our approach to players, squads, teams and coaches must be much more focused on the RWC - beating ENG in Twickenham counts for naught, unless you can replicate that form where it really matters - and it mattered last Saturday.

Can't agree at all, to be honest. I think Wales have firmly disproved ye received wisdom that a team has to be taking shape for four years to go well at a world cup. They've come together in less than 12 months. Mike Phillips was fighting in kebab shops in Cardiff a few months ago.

And I wouldn't trade our GS for anything short of a World Cup. Trophies are trophies, and "losing finalist" or "came close in a semi" doesn't compare to Grand Slam Champions.

In fact, I'll take one GS every four years and gladly sacrifice every world cup as a trade off.

The Spoofer
14th-October-2011, 16:53
I thought Tony Ward would know more about the underage players coming through.

From what I've seen of the following players, it wouldn't surprise me if most of them were in the 2015 squad. Gilroy, L Marshall, JJ Hanrahan, Chris Farrell (Ulster 12, Ireland U18 last season), Luke McGrath, Cathal O'Flaherty, E Griffin, Tiernan O'Halloran, T Furlong. There'll be others to emerge too like SOB has.

Of TW's squad I don't think the following will be in the 2015 squad. Kearney, Carr, McFadden, TOL, Wilkinson, Ross, Varley, Ferris (early retirement). Not sure about Ruddock, Spence, Jones, Toner, Cronin or even Heaslip either. Nagle will have to put ona few KGs too.

Agree re Carr and Toner.

I think J O'Connell (Leinster prop) could become a really serious player. Was excellent for U20's 2 years ago (so he should be 21 now) and can really play both sides.

Was he making a point by leaving out Strauss who will be Irelands 1st choice hooker after 12th November 2012?

budgetwinger
14th-October-2011, 16:58
[QUOTE=Daithi;972564]

Daithi - no question about that. My point was that winning in Paris cannot be seen as the end-goal. It's only a stepping-stone to greater things. We have to lose the mentality that winning away or winning trophies is good enough. It isn't!.

We need a coherent plan from now to RWC 2015. That includes re-building and suffering a few scoreboard losses in order to build a team that will get us to tomorrow at 0900.

NZ, Oz, Eng, France and Wales are all operating from RWC to RWC - they may have advantages in terms of player numbers or budgets etc, but we need to stop kidding ourselves that the RWC preparation starts in November 2014 - it doesn't - it starts now.

A younger player on the fringes should immediately oust an older player who will not make 2015. What's the point in playing a 33 y.o in next yrs 6N? Get the young guy in and blood him now - look at cian Healy - he has had 2 tough yrs and is now making progress - if he can keep developing he will yet be a very good player, and fair play to him.

ROG wants to stay on and I can't blame him, but Sexton has to be our starting 10 - and we stick with him unless e.g. Keatley or whoever. (We'll need two 10's so both will need game)

Interim victories are fine, but let's not forget the real goal - it's 4 yrs away!

I disagree. Wales are clearly not operating from WC to WC - as BB has said, they've more or less thrown this side together out of the blue. North, Lydiate, Faletau, Warburton, Priestland and the like have come through for them at the 11th hour. Straight after 2007 they called Martyn Williams out of retirement - that clearly wasn't done with the next WC in mind (despite the fact he nearly got there anyway). England likewise haven't shown any serious desire to rebuild, and France are trying to convert a 9 into a 10 ​mid-tournament​ because they haven't developed any back up. NZ and Aus constantly rebuild anyway, always have done, that's why it's taken so long for there to be a NZ player with 100 caps. And Henry's hand was forced by so many players going overseas after 2007 anyway.

But let's say other teams do build to the WC. Should we? I don't think so. A WC semi final or even a final is all very well, but what does it achieve? Nothing. The only thing that counts is winning the damn thing. Ask NZ. England got all excited about the final four years ago because they'd achieved nothing of note since 2003. Wales are excited now because they've suddenly found a team that can compete at the top table. But for all your talk about stepping stones you must realise that a semi or a final is simply that. By definition it isn't an end in itself.

Your statement that 'winning trophies isn't good enough' is beyond ridiculous. You can argue about the merits of a triple crown but give me a 6N trophy or a grand slam any day of the week. It's a trophy, it's something tangible. We don't win enough of them to be cavalier about it. Whatever you say about other teams being focussed on the WC when it comes to the 6N people only care about winning (with the occasional exception of Lievremont but that's guy's madder than a box of frogs). The fact that the WC exists in no way diminishes the achievement in winning a 6N.

Yes, there are stepping stones to success. Beating southern hemisphere sides at home. Beating Eng/France away regularly. Beating southern hemisphere sides away. Reaching semi finals. Success will always be measured in trophies. When we look back on this Ireland side in 10 years time, they won't be the team that beat Aus/SA at home, or the team that beat Australia in the southern hemisphere, or whatever. They'll be the team that won our second grand slam. All the other stuff is secondary.

The world cup is the pinnacle of achievement in the game, of course it is. But anyone who says that the next best thing is a final or a semi, and not a grand slam or 6N title, is just plain wrong.

Blindsider.
14th-October-2011, 17:34
Can't agree at all, to be honest. I think Wales have firmly disproved ye received wisdom that a team has to be taking shape for four years to go well at a world cup. They've come together in less than 12 months. Mike Phillips was fighting in kebab shops in Cardiff a few months ago.

And I wouldn't trade our GS for anything short of a World Cup. Trophies are trophies, and "losing finalist" or "came close in a semi" doesn't compare to Grand Slam Champions.

In fact, I'll take one GS every four years and gladly sacrifice every world cup as a trade off.

BB - why bother going to a RWC then? We should just concentrate on peaking every other yr in a 6N, knowing that we have France and England at home, and are in the process of re-building for the next RWC.

We would catch them 'on the hop' and get a nice trophy into the bargain.

Blindsider.
14th-October-2011, 17:45
[QUOTE=Blindsider.;972577]

I disagree. Wales are clearly not operating from WC to WC - as BB has said, they've more or less thrown this side together out of the blue. North, Lydiate, Faletau, Warburton, Priestland and the like have come through for them at the 11th hour. Straight after 2007 they called Martyn Williams out of retirement - that clearly wasn't done with the next WC in mind (despite the fact he nearly got there anyway). England likewise haven't shown any serious desire to rebuild, and France are trying to convert a 9 into a 10 ​mid-tournament​ because they haven't developed any back up. NZ and Aus constantly rebuild anyway, always have done, that's why it's taken so long for there to be a NZ player with 100 caps. And Henry's hand was forced by so many players going overseas after 2007 anyway.

But let's say other teams do build to the WC. Should we? I don't think so. A WC semi final or even a final is all very well, but what does it achieve? Nothing. The only thing that counts is winning the damn thing. Ask NZ. England got all excited about the final four years ago because they'd achieved nothing of note since 2003. Wales are excited now because they've suddenly found a team that can compete at the top table. But for all your talk about stepping stones you must realise that a semi or a final is simply that. By definition it isn't an end in itself.

Your statement that 'winning trophies isn't good enough' is beyond ridiculous. You can argue about the merits of a triple crown but give me a 6N trophy or a grand slam any day of the week. It's a trophy, it's something tangible. We don't win enough of them to be cavalier about it. Whatever you say about other teams being focussed on the WC when it comes to the 6N people only care about winning (with the occasional exception of Lievremont but that's guy's madder than a box of frogs). The fact that the WC exists in no way diminishes the achievement in winning a 6N.

Yes, there are stepping stones to success. Beating southern hemisphere sides at home. Beating Eng/France away regularly. Beating southern hemisphere sides away. Reaching semi finals. Success will always be measured in trophies. When we look back on this Ireland side in 10 years time, they won't be the team that beat Aus/SA at home, or the team that beat Australia in the southern hemisphere, or whatever. They'll be the team that won our second grand slam. All the other stuff is secondary.

The world cup is the pinnacle of achievement in the game, of course it is. But anyone who says that the next best thing is a final or a semi, and not a grand slam or 6N title, is just plain wrong.

You'd probably want to check debuts etc before making sweeping statement like that. North and Faletau are very young, so obviously their debuts are recent.

Gatland was lucky enough to have options when his so called verterans weren't up to scratch. Do you really think that Gatland is not on a 4 yr RWC cycle?

From http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/rugby_union/welsh/8970780.stm
Wales coach Warren Gatland has signed a four-year contract extension with the Welsh Rugby Union taking him to the end of the 2015 Rugby World Cup.

I'm not trying to de-value Grand Slams or any other tournament - I am saying that if we want to be serious about a RWC, we need to change our focus.

And we should be serious about a RWC - we've competed and won in every other competition in the pro era - why not the RWC? Is it not possible to aim for the RWC and have interim goals as per my post #117? I don't see why they should be mutually exclusive.

budgetwinger
14th-October-2011, 17:45
BB - why bother going to a RWC then? We should just concentrate on peaking every other yr in a 6N, knowing that we have France and England at home, and are in the process of re-building for the next RWC.

We would catch them 'on the hop' and get a nice trophy into the bargain.

You make it sound so easy. So why do we find it so hard to do? Could it be that Eng and Fra don't put so much store in World Cups as you claim, and do actually compete in the 6N? Or is it simply that we aren't good enough to beat them even when they aren't trying? Either way it suggests to me that the 6N is a trophy worth winning for us.

And how, exactly, does trying to win the 6N equate to not bothering to go to a world cup? We can try and win both, you know. And, more to the point, we should. The WC is the premier competition, so we should always try to do our best, but the 6N remains a much more realistic goal.

Face facts: NZ are perennial favourites for the WC, do attempt to peak for it, and still haven't won for 24 years. France put all their efforts into peaking in 2007 and didn't make the final. Focussing on the WC to the exclusion of the 6N would be no guarantee of success. In fact, it would almost guarantee no success at all, since we wouldn't win any 6N that way, and come the world cup we'd still be one of 6-8 teams that are capable of winning it (and probably in the lower half of that).

Balla Boy
14th-October-2011, 17:46
BS - You read my mind. That's exactly what I'd do. We're as likely to strike on a WC winning team following that pattern as we are trying to plan around four year cycles.

No one planned Warburton. No one planned that there'd be a fly half beyond Hook or Jones. They were still toying with the notion of taking Henson on tour a couple of months ago.

NZ, on the other hand, have planned meticulously and failed for at least the last two.

Play away, plan our succession and try to win 6N. And then see where we are when the WC comes around.

To plan our game around a competition that we don't aspire to win is lunacy.

The Outlaw
14th-October-2011, 17:47
BB - why bother going to a RWC then? We should just concentrate on peaking every other yr in a 6N, knowing that we have France and England at home, and are in the process of re-building for the next RWC.

We would catch them 'on the hop' and get a nice trophy into the bargain.

Exactly why waste the money? Unfortunately our system isnt geared towards World Cups and never will be.

budgetwinger
14th-October-2011, 18:05
[QUOTE=budgetwinger;972604]

You'd probably want to check debuts etc before making sweeping statement like that. North and Faletau are very young, so obviously their debuts are recent.

Gatland was lucky enough to have options when his so called verterans weren't up to scratch. Do you really think that Gatland is not on a 4 yr RWC cycle?

From http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/rugby_union/welsh/8970780.stm
Wales coach Warren Gatland has signed a four-year contract extension with the Welsh Rugby Union taking him to the end of the 2015 Rugby World Cup.

I'm not trying to de-value Grand Slams or any other tournament - I am saying that if we want to be serious about a RWC, we need to change our focus.

And we should be serious about a RWC - we've competed and won in every other competition in the pro era - why not the RWC? Is it not possible to aim for the RWC and have interim goals as per my post #117? I don't see why they should be mutually exclusive.

Checked, and I don't see any reason to change it. Priestland especially had two caps off the bench (one at FB) before being pitched in at 10 against England in the warm ups when Stephen Jones pulled out. A half dozen caps later he guides them to the semi. That's the definition of 11th hour for me. Warburton and Lydiate had a few token caps from 2009-2010 but only became first choice in the 2010 AIs - that's hardly long term planning. Players (especially forwards) often take much longer to kick on from their first cap. Gatland wasn't banking on either being first choice at this WC when he first picked them IMHO.

I'm not saying that people don't focus on the WC, especially where coaches are concerned, and obviously I think we should aim to peak at the WC. But putting everything in the four year cycle is incredibly risky for a country with Ireland's player numbers. I think it's a recipe for disaster. There are very good reasons why the WC should be a secondary goal for us. We've won the 5/6N once in the pro era. That's less than Wales, as often as Scotland. How is that a solid basis for aiming at World Cups? England won it three times in four years before 2003. France have won it most years since then but didn't make the final on home soil. We struggle to beat Aus and SA away from home and have trouble beating Fra/NZ at all. Until we find a way to do that, setting the WC as our primary goal will just result in disappointment.

Mcork
14th-October-2011, 19:18
A lot of these probably wont be up to it initially but eventually 3-4 years down the road you'll get a talented crop who will end up starting for their provinces at 20-21 and then boom it all takes off. The provinces will get successful again. All of a sudden you have a wider base of players at national level to pick from. You have the cream of the older guys playing abroad and you have the young talented bucks.


Sorry, I must have missed a few seasons as my memory of last season was of Leinster being crowned the best team in Europe and the Irish sides finishing the Magners league in 1, 2 & 3 positions and 2 Irish teams contesting the final; so the provinces do not need to 'get sucessful' again, they are already.

The talent is there - stop putting the young players down. There were plenty of people telling us Healy & O'Brien were not INTL class before they came in a proved otherwise. Ditto Murray, you yourself said he was too young. The truth is you don't know how a player will do at INTL level until they are put in there is a test match and even then they need to have 3 - 4 games really to find their feet. I watch a fair bit of celtic league (thanks to BBC & S4C) and there are some very promising young players in the ML who if anything have outshone the young welsh players in the last 12 months. The difference is the young welsh tyros were given their chance in red. Wales have blown your argument about not trusting young players out of the water.

Mcork
14th-October-2011, 19:33
[QUOTE=Daithi;972564]

Daithi - no question about that. My point was that winning in Paris cannot be seen as the end-goal. It's only a stepping-stone to greater things. We have to lose the mentality that winning away or winning trophies is good enough. It isn't!.

We need a coherent plan from now to RWC 2015. That includes re-building and suffering a few scoreboard losses in order to build a team that will get us to tomorrow at 0900.

NZ, Oz, Eng, France and Wales are all operating from RWC to RWC - they may have advantages in terms of player numbers or budgets etc, but we need to stop kidding ourselves that the RWC preparation starts in November 2014 - it doesn't - it starts now.

A younger player on the fringes should immediately oust an older player who will not make 2015. What's the point in playing a 33 y.o in next yrs 6N? Get the young guy in and blood him now - look at cian Healy - he has had 2 tough yrs and is now making progress - if he can keep developing he will yet be a very good player, and fair play to him.

ROG wants to stay on and I can't blame him, but Sexton has to be our starting 10 - and we stick with him unless e.g. Keatley or whoever. (We'll need two 10's so both will need game)

Interim victories are fine, but let's not forget the real goal - it's 4 yrs away!

I agree to an extent but not that we should be looking at a comp 4 years away. I think however that there has to be some forward planning. For example, if you ask me would the team that started against Wales last week win us the GS this coming spring? I would say definetly not. Same question about a team with 2 or 3 players added say N. Spence for D'Arcy, Sexton for ROG, D. Ryan for DO'C. I'd also say about the same but which scenario gives us a better chance of winning in 2013? The latter team of course has a much better chance.

The point is we shouldn't sacrifice 4 years but there will need to be seasons that we sacrifice with a longer term goal in mind. France do this regularly. We don't because we're so starved of success that we sacrifice the long term for really long shot chances of sucess. Kidney (& his mgmt team) needs to set a goal of a GS in the next 3 years but it doesn't have to this coming 6n's. Use this 6n's to make us a force to reckoned with in 1 to 2 years time. The RWC2015 will look after itself.

Pony
14th-October-2011, 20:41
Rugby is the national sport at wales and they have a greater volume of players

stats don't back this claim up. We have over twice as many adults playing the game now.

The Outlaw
14th-October-2011, 23:27
stats don't back this claim up. We have over twice as many adults playing the game now.

but we have 3 other games ahead of rugby. Wales dont. So their best athletes play rugby. Ours play GAA.

The Outlaw
14th-October-2011, 23:29
Sorry, I must have missed a few seasons as my memory of last season was of Leinster being crowned the best team in Europe and the Irish sides finishing the Magners league in 1, 2 & 3 positions and 2 Irish teams contesting the final; so the provinces do not need to 'get sucessful' again, they are already.

The talent is there - stop putting the young players down. There were plenty of people telling us Healy & O'Brien were not INTL class before they came in a proved otherwise. Ditto Murray, you yourself said he was too young. The truth is you don't know how a player will do at INTL level until they are put in there is a test match and even then they need to have 3 - 4 games really to find their feet. I watch a fair bit of celtic league (thanks to BBC & S4C) and there are some very promising young players in the ML who if anything have outshone the young welsh players in the last 12 months. The difference is the young welsh tyros were given their chance in red. Wales have blown your argument about not trusting young players out of the water.

Theirs were good enough- our werent. They had 5 Conor Murrays we had one. That's the difference. We start these mass rebuilding programmes and it will only be a recipe for disaster.

Fetcher
15th-October-2011, 00:53
I thought Tony Ward would know more about the underage players coming through.

From what I've seen of the following players, it wouldn't surprise me if most of them were in the 2015 squad. Gilroy, L Marshall, JJ Hanrahan, Chris Farrell (Ulster 12, Ireland U18 last season), Luke McGrath, Cathal O'Flaherty, E Griffin, Tiernan O'Halloran, T Furlong. There'll be others to emerge too like SOB has.

Of TW's squad I don't think the following will be in the 2015 squad. Kearney, Carr, McFadden, TOL, Wilkinson, Ross, Varley, Ferris (early retirement). Not sure about Ruddock, Spence, Jones, Toner, Cronin or even Heaslip either. Nagle will have to put ona few KGs too.

I'd disagree about Kearney but the others you think might not be in the squad are feasible. Kearney has too much talent to fade away over the next few years.
It's interesting that there are two creative first centres coming through the ranks in Hanrahan and Marshall considering we haven't produced one in a while. Marshall looks the better bet simply because of his physicality.
Haven't seen much of Luke McGrath but have heard a lot. Had to laugh at one post saying Conor Murray would be on the way out because of McGrath's impending arrival.

Mcork
15th-October-2011, 06:26
Theirs were good enough- our werent. They had 5 Conor Murrays we had one. That's the difference. We start these mass rebuilding programmes and it will only be a recipe for disaster.

You've nothing to back that up do you? It's just talking out your ass and trying to pass it of as fact. Our players have proved week in week out in the ML that they are better (or at least as good) as the Welsh players. And unlike you I can back that up with evidence - Leinster HEC, Munster, Leinster, Ulster 1,2,3 in the ML. Yes that's right they play each other every week.

Replace 'Theirs were good enough- our werent' with 'theirs got a chance, ours didn't' and you are far closer to the truth.

The Outlaw
15th-October-2011, 10:06
You've nothing to back that up do you? It's just talking out your ass and trying to pass it of as fact. Our players have proved week in week out in the ML that they are better (or at least as good) as the Welsh players. And unlike you I can back that up with evidence - Leinster HEC, Munster, Leinster, Ulster 1,2,3 in the ML. Yes that's right they play each other every week.

Replace 'Theirs were good enough- our werent' with 'theirs got a chance, ours didn't' and you are far closer to the truth.

Name the players who were directly superior then 1-15 for Ireland last week.

Aussiedub
15th-October-2011, 10:41
You've nothing to back that up do you? It's just talking out your ass and trying to pass it of as fact. Our players have proved week in week out in the ML that they are better (or at least as good) as the Welsh players. And unlike you I can back that up with evidence - Leinster HEC, Munster, Leinster, Ulster 1,2,3 in the ML. Yes that's right they play each other every week.

Replace 'Theirs were good enough- our werent' with 'theirs got a chance, ours didn't' and you are far closer to the truth.

So whose fault is it that they didn't get a chance?

Mcork
15th-October-2011, 11:16
Name the players who were directly superior then 1-15 for Ireland last week.

Pretty much take your pick at 12. Downey, N. Spense, even Fitz & McFadden are worth trying out there. You could make an argument for some other positions but that is the clearcut one. Anyway you have again missed the point. - noone is calling for wholesale changes. Just that we should be bringing through promising young players more quickly when it is obvious that the incumbent is in serious deline. The mistake Kidney made was not at the WC but before it (both this & last A.I's) when he played D'Arcy who was in atrocious form and then played P. Wallace as his back up. Neither player is good enough for INTL rugby at this stage and Kidney backed himself into a corner by only picking both. Downey & arguably N. Spense could have been options but were never given the chance.

The Outlaw
15th-October-2011, 12:01
Pretty much take your pick at 12. Downey, N. Spense, even Fitz & McFadden are worth trying out there. You could make an argument for some other positions but that is the clearcut one. Anyway you have again missed the point. - noone is calling for wholesale changes. Just that we should be bringing through promising young players more quickly when it is obvious that the incumbent is in serious deline. The mistake Kidney made was not at the WC but before it (both this & last A.I's) when he played D'Arcy who was in atrocious form and then played P. Wallace as his back up. Neither player is good enough for INTL rugby at this stage and Kidney backed himself into a corner by only picking both. Downey & arguably N. Spense could have been options but were never given the chance.

Spence has very poor hands. thats why DK didnt pick him. Passing is a requirement at 12.
Downey has carved a good career for himself in the GP but I wouldnt have any issue with him not being picked.
That is not the reason why we lost against Wales. As I said the myth is we have a bunch of young tyros waiting to get in.

busbi
15th-October-2011, 12:13
Personally i wouldn't mind seeing Luke Fitzgeard getting a run at 12 with Leinster. It would require a bit of self assessment from the player himself though which i'm not sure he's capable of, but here's hoping.

Aussiedub
15th-October-2011, 12:16
Spence has very poor hands. thats why DK didnt pick him. Passing is a requirement at 12.
Downey has carved a good career for himself in the GP but I wouldnt have any issue with him not being picked.
That is not the reason why we lost against Wales. As I said the myth is we have a bunch of young tyros waiting to get in.

McCabe doesn't have great hands, Nonu spent years playing without great hands, Roberts doesn't have great hands and yet they all made the RWC semi-final but they are big beasts who hit hard with and without the ball. Having the option of a 6'4 17 stone centre who gets over the gainline is a near requirement these days.

Aussiedub
15th-October-2011, 12:16
Personally i wouldn't mind seeing Luke Fitzgeard getting a run at 12 with Leinster. It would require a bit of self assessment from the player himself though which i'm not sure he's capable of, but here's hoping.

He is playing at 12 at the moment for Leinster

The Outlaw
15th-October-2011, 14:57
McCabe doesn't have great hands, Nonu spent years playing without great hands, Roberts doesn't have great hands and yet they all made the RWC semi-final but they are big beasts who hit hard with and without the ball. Having the option of a 6'4 17 stone centre who gets over the gainline is a near requirement these days.

Roberts has good hands. Its a myth that he doesn't.

Fitzgerald played at 12 against the all blacks in CP a few years and didnt look out of place. I've said before I'd like to see him at 12 just to see. Certainly would try that well ahead of Spence and Downey.

busbi
15th-October-2011, 15:08
Fitzgerald played at 12 against the all blacks in CP a few years and didnt look out of place. I've said before I'd like to see him at 12 just to see. Certainly would try that well ahead of Spence and Downey.

Could be tailor made for the position really. Has the strength, has the step, has speed off the mark, great defender, and has a good pair of hands (even if he can be overly adventurous with offloads and one hand passes sometimes). Like i said though, he'd want to show better discipline in an attacking sense if he was to make a real go out it compared to the roy of the rovers type stuff he seems interested in.

Mcork
15th-October-2011, 15:59
Spence has very poor hands. thats why DK didnt pick him. Passing is a requirement at 12.
Downey has carved a good career for himself in the GP but I wouldnt have any issue with him not being picked.
That is not the reason why we lost against Wales. As I said the myth is we have a bunch of young tyros waiting to get in.

D'Arcy never had good hands so that's not a good argument. His strenght was always his stepping ability in heavy traffic (and make ground) never his ability to put others away. That was always frustrating about him. Now he's lost his gainline breaking ability and his solidity in defence is totally gone so it's simply time to move on.
Spense has poor hands - it's the area of his game that needs work undoubtedly. Roberts didn't have great hands a few seasons back now look at him, it's still not perfect but more than acceptable now. If you want a centre with good hands, then P. Wallace should have played ahead of D'Arcy but he quite rightly didn't in the past because overall D'Arcy was better. L. Fitz would be the guy to concentrate on if soft hands is a requisite. Spence would probably make the most difference to our midfield defence though. He's a very powerful tackler and that is why I would pick him over the others.

tickettout
15th-October-2011, 19:08
Having big men that can get over the gainline is a must now for the top teams. We're badly caught in the positions 12 & 13 going forward.

Fitz struggles to do the basics right on the wing, not sure he would be able to play 12 myself. Apart from Bowe and Earls, our backline was toothless in this world cup. We got nothing from 15,12&13.
Worst it has been in a long time considering our scrum and lineout were very solid.

tickettout
15th-October-2011, 19:10
Roberts is a fabulous player, best 12 in the world when on form. The NH version of Nonu, perhaps with more power.

ustix
15th-October-2011, 20:45
Roberts is a fabulous player, best 12 in the world when on form. The NH version of Nonu, perhaps with more power.
And to top it all he seems to be an admirable fish.

Balla Boy
16th-October-2011, 09:02
Not much point in assessing Roberts abilities in isolation, imo. His ups and downs in form have had less to do with him and more to do with who is around him.

He flew on the Lions tour because BOD created space for him. Jones has never been able to release him for Wales, using him as a simple crash ball carrier. Hook doesn't seem to care much better.

Gatland's (mainly accidental) stroke of luck is that Priestland seems to be able to create the right lines and space for him.

He's a terrific runner, massively powerful and I don't agree that his hands are poor.

The question mark for me (and why I'd put Nonu in front of him) is whether he can take control of his own game more over the next couple of seasons. He needs to be able to take a game by the scruff of the neck whoever is at ten, insisting on ball in the right places at the right time. At the moment, he's a huge force that seems to need someone else to do the steering, and that's a step short of where he could be.

The Outlaw
16th-October-2011, 12:40
Not much point in assessing Roberts abilities in isolation, imo. His ups and downs in form have had less to do with him and more to do with who is around him.

He flew on the Lions tour because BOD created space for him. Jones has never been able to release him for Wales, using him as a simple crash ball carrier. Hook doesn't seem to care much better.

Gatland's (mainly accidental) stroke of luck is that Priestland seems to be able to create the right lines and space for him.

He's a terrific runner, massively powerful and I don't agree that his hands are poor.

The question mark for me (and why I'd put Nonu in front of him) is whether he can take control of his own game more over the next couple of seasons. He needs to be able to take a game by the scruff of the neck whoever is at ten, insisting on ball in the right places at the right time. At the moment, he's a huge force that seems to need someone else to do the steering, and that's a step short of where he could be.

Priestlands progression has been amazing though. Honestly never thought he was that good. It just shows when you get the best coaches out of the provincial system into the national unit to concentrate solely on the National Side what can happen. Not sure the IRFU would have the balls to enforce that here with all the vested provincial interests.

lactose intolerant
16th-October-2011, 14:30
Priestlands progression has been amazing though. Honestly never thought he was that good. It just shows when you get the best coaches out of the provincial system into the national unit to concentrate solely on the National Side what can happen. Not sure the IRFU would have the balls to enforce that here with all the vested provincial interests.

Other than Gaffney (soon to be replaced), which of the coaches in the Irish setup do you feel has a better equivalent among the provinces?

The Outlaw
16th-October-2011, 17:21
Other than Gaffney (soon to be replaced), which of the coaches in the Irish setup do you feel has a better equivalent among the provinces?

Schmidt and Feek to name just two.

I think Smals has been very good but I'd like to see Johnno Gibbes in there to freshen things up

Adam1986
16th-October-2011, 17:55
While I dont agree with sweeping changes for the next 6n's and beyond the current team needs changing. POM could be a very good 7 he has the ability to carry very well, quick and is developing ability on the ground. As many have said we badly need a 7 Dom Ryan should be tried aswell. We need over the next two years to make a gradual shift to the new talent. We need to try mcfadden, fitz, spence at 12 now as Darcy isnt the player he was. BOD has already stated that the 2013 lions tour is pretty much the end of his road, so we need to try replacements aswell at 13. We also need to try Hagan and wilkinson mayber archer, if he can improve his scrummaging, as props is a badly exposed area at the mo.

While we cant throw 15 new guys in at the deep end we need to put guys like POM, Dom Ryan, Hagan,etc in around the older guys on the pitch to get them upto speed and then as the seniors get older the younger guys slot in more easily. We are not going to win another 6n's with a darcy/bod centre pairing and whats more if the young guys aren't in now then 2-3 years when some of the senior players, .i.e, Rog,Bod, g.murphy,etc are gone we're goin to be really badly exposed.

All in all dont rush to over experiment but dont stick with all of the current squad as that will get us nowhere.

Mcork
16th-October-2011, 18:20
Other than Gaffney (soon to be replaced), which of the coaches in the Irish setup do you feel has a better equivalent among the provinces?

Schmidt would be a huge addition IMO. Doubt he would leave the main job in Leinster to be Irish backs/attack coach full time and how much reisitance would the LB show? It would probably have to be a part time role while continuing as head coach in D4 which would be very difficult arragement but as others have said, if you're going to get your best coaches into the national set-up then they the IRFU have one of best/attack backs coaches in the business on their doorstep.

lactose intolerant
16th-October-2011, 18:56
Schmidt and Feek to name just two.

I think Smals has been very good but I'd like to see Johnno Gibbes in there to freshen things up

Do you mean Schmidt as Head Coach or as a backs/attack coach? And I thought Feek was involved with the Irish set-up no?


Schmidt would be a huge addition IMO. Doubt he would leave the main job in Leinster to be Irish backs/attack coach full time and how much reisitance would the LB show? It would probably have to be a part time role while continuing as head coach in D4 which would be very difficult arragement but as others have said, if you're going to get your best coaches into the national set-up then they the IRFU have one of best/attack backs coaches in the business on their doorstep.

Schmidt would be a terrific asset for the IRFU to have without a doubt but I'm not sure the part-time role would be workable!! Imagine, for example, him going back to coaching Leinster after a 6 Nations where he may have been crucial in the selection of Earls/Trimble/Murray/Spence/whoever over their Leinster counterparts?? It would be quite a headache for him to deal with....not to mention he may see himself as a Head Coch only now!!
I just don't see it being feasible myself to be honest!!
Perhaps Outlaw was advocating Schmidt to replace Kidney?

Balla Boy
16th-October-2011, 19:08
Outlaw,

I remember Scarlets fans talking up Priestland as the great white hope one year when I was up there a couple of years ago.

But you hear Welsh fans talking about their brilliant fly half and you tend to take it with a pinch of salt. The same fans had since told me that they weren't sure he'd come good.

busbi
16th-October-2011, 21:54
Hasn't Edwards been managing the Head Coach with Club/Assistant with National Team for a while now? And London to Cardiff is a much harder balancing act than dealing with two teams based in Dublin.

I think it would come down to Schmidt himself being happy to compromise so as to take a position with the National side. If he doesn't want to do it then it shouldn't be forced on him. If he does, then they should do everything in their power to make it happen.

Doesn't strike me as as the type to cause political ructions ala EOS.

isola ciarrai
16th-October-2011, 22:05
I'd disagree about Kearney but the others you think might not be in the squad are feasible. Kearney has too much talent to fade away over the next few years.
It's interesting that there are two creative first centres coming through the ranks in Hanrahan and Marshall considering we haven't produced one in a while. Marshall looks the better bet simply because of his physicality.
Haven't seen much of Luke McGrath but have heard a lot. Had to laugh at one post saying Conor Murray would be on the way out because of McGrath's impending arrival.
That's the problem about those forgetting the lessons of history being condemned to repeat them - do the names Kieran Campbell and/or Brian O'Riordan at 9 ring a bell? Saw Campbell play against SA A team at TP some years ago, and he looked the business. Saw Brian O'Riordan play for an Irish Under 20 team that foiled Wales going for a second Grand Slam at TP about 12 years ago. He played so brilliantly that we all said - there's our 9 and future Lion for the next 10 years. And he just never made it. Why? Dunno. Some just never fulfill their early promise. The Dublin media still hype these young lads - for every Cian Healy, there is a Brian O'Riordan who does not get there. And injury plays a massive part also - what about that excellent 9 of a few years ago, Scally, who got injured and never recovered, and the unfortunate young McKinley recently.

The Red Knight
17th-October-2011, 19:09
Have you ever seen O'Hara play? He's nothing like Ryan or Grace.

Your right o'hara is an excellent prospect, also IMO Peter o'mahony has all the attributes to make an excellent 7, needs game time their, which he may get over the next few months

onthe 22
17th-October-2011, 19:49
Archer and Hagan need to get a run in the 6N too!
If Ross gets injured what other prospects are there?

The Red Knight
18th-October-2011, 11:20
Archer and Hagan need to get a run in the 6N too!
If Ross gets injured what other prospects are there?

IMO hagan looks to have potential, Archer has yet to convince me at munster level.

Cowboy
18th-October-2011, 11:22
I hope Archers last performance against the Ospreys was a blip, because he was folded like an envelope.

flimwodd
18th-October-2011, 13:13
I hope Archers last performance against the Ospreys was a blip, because he was folded like an
envelope.
I love the way people assume props are totally at fault if they get milled,truth is the second and backrow have a major part to play.Put archer in with fla and WDP,POC.DOC,and wally or leamy behind him then we know if he is any good.

Cowboy
18th-October-2011, 13:25
I wasnt trying to single him out, or say he's not good enough. I'm just hoping, whoever is behind him that he makes a better job of it in the next game. If Botha is in bother then Archer will be starting in the Aviva with a first choice pack and lets see then how he goes.

flimwodd
18th-October-2011, 13:37
I wasnt trying to single him out, or say he's not good enough. I'm just hoping, whoever is behind him that he makes a better job of it in the next game. If Botha is in bother then Archer will be starting in the Aviva with a first choice pack and lets see then how he goes.
Id have faith in archer in a full pack of munsters first choice forwards,in fairness healy on an average day is extremely average,and leinster dont have the grunt in the 2nd row like munster.

Benji
18th-October-2011, 17:00
:D:D:D Do you write Gatlands stuff?

busbi
18th-October-2011, 17:37
Archer and Hagan need to get a run in the 6N too!
If Ross gets injured what other prospects are there?

Archer has a while to go before even being considered for a run in the HEC with us.

Would like to see a bit of O'Hara at Munster.

blackadder
19th-October-2011, 13:47
Uncapped Players to be in contention by 2015
Props
Paddy McAlistair (Ulster)
Stephen Archer (Munster)
Jamie Hagan (Leinster)
HookersMike Sherry (Munster)
Richardt Strauss (Leinster)**
LocksIan Nagle (Munster)
Dan Tuohy (Ulster)*
Back RowsDominic Ryan (Leinster)
Peter O'Mahony (Munster)
Rhys Ruddock (Leinster)*
Scrum HalfsNone
Out HalfsIan Keatley (Munster)
Paddy Jackson (Ulster)
CentresNevin Spence (Ulster)
Luke Marshall (Ulster)
Darren Cave (Ulster)*
Eoin Griffin (Connacht)
Back ThreeSimon Zebo (Munster)
Tiernan O'Halloran (Connacht)
Craig Gilroy (Ulster)
Andrew Conway (Leinster)
Fionn Carr (Leinster)

*Already got a cap or two but by and large can be considered uncapped for the sake of this debate as they've had little impact yet.
** Can't say I'm happy about it but rules are rules and other countries do it.

I've only included players who have made a positive impact at Pro 12 level as there are other promising players in the various Academies who just haven't made that step up to Provincial level yet like Luke McGrath, JJ Hanrahan, Tadgh Furlong, Brendan Macken, Jack McGrath, Stewart Maguire and Niall Annett etc. Anyway I've named 21 players who I think have the POTENTIAL to become good test players. The truth we'll be lucky if half of them make it for Ireland and win say 30+ caps but add them to the following players and I think going forward we have reasons to be optimistic. Sure there's no BOD in the pipeworks but even NZ would struggle to replace him. We have to remember this BOD was born in 1979, which co-incidentally was the same year that a certain Mike Gibson played his last game for Ireland. BOD made his debut in 1999. Ireland to wait 20 years to replace Gibson with a player as good or indeed perhaps better. Maybe we'll be waiting until the 2030s to replace BOD, although thanks to the meticulous manner in which I hope the Academies sift through the player talent pool at underage level we may not have to wait as long as who knows who escaped through the net in the 80s and early 90s.

Anyway add the above group of players to this lot and we're ok

Cian Healy
Mike Ross
Tom Court
Rory Best
Sean Cronin
Paul O'Connell (I think he's got another WC, but maybe that's wishful thinking)
Donnacha Ryan
Stephen Ferris
Sean O'Brien
Jamie Heaslip
Connor Murray
Tomas O'Leary (he can come back)
Jonathan Sexton
Fergus McFadden
Luke Fitzgerald
Keith Earls
Andrew Trimble
Rob Kearney
Tommy Bowe
Felix Jones

Have I forgotten anyone?

flimwodd
19th-October-2011, 14:09
:D:D:D Do you write Gatlands stuff?
No, why do you ask.

LeakyBoots
20th-October-2011, 11:29
Didn't a lad called Morris leave Leinster for Leicester and has been getting his game? Fullback/wing, exciting bit of stuff according to some Leinster fans

the plastic paddy
20th-October-2011, 12:24
I would add to Blackadders list from the underage teams in the summer IMHO Furlong and Luke Mcgrath, although I am sure there are others. But as you say, we don't look too bad.

blackadder
20th-October-2011, 12:36
I would add to Blackadders list from the underage teams in the summer IMHO Furlong and Luke Mcgrath, although I am sure there are others. But as you say, we don't look too bad.

I mentioned those guys but I didn't include them in the list because they've yet to play professionally. There's 41 players I've mentioned 21 potential players and 20 current players, there are probably 10 others (number randomly plucked out of the air to be fair!) like Furlong and McGrath in the Academies who could be in contention in four years time. For example four years ago I'd never heard of Connor Murray. I'll throw another name at you to keep an eye on up at Ulster, Peter Nelson, he's only 18 and just in the Ulster Academy but played for the senior side in pre season and in fact benched for us in our first Pro 12 game IIRC. I've never seen him play myself but have heard very good things. Can play just about anywhere from 10/12/13 and 15 but Ulster seem to be grooming him as a 15. I'm sure all the provinces have guys like him, time will tell if they make it though.

Piggybui
20th-October-2011, 14:57
Lads aged 21 or 22 starting games at a world cup isn't out of the ordinary (Conor Murray and a few of the Welch lads for example) so for the next world cup they would be just 17 or 18 now. There may be a few lads to emerge from schools and clubs yet. Not looking too bad.
Mind you, some of the youngsters blackadder mentioned mightn't develop the way we'd hope they will.

the plastic paddy
20th-October-2011, 17:05
I mentioned those guys but I didn't include them in the list because they've yet to play professionally. There's 41 players I've mentioned 21 potential players and 20 current players, there are probably 10 others (number randomly plucked out of the air to be fair!) like Furlong and McGrath in the Academies who could be in contention in four years time. For example four years ago I'd never heard of Connor Murray. I'll throw another name at you to keep an eye on up at Ulster, Peter Nelson, he's only 18 and just in the Ulster Academy but played for the senior side in pre season and in fact benched for us in our first Pro 12 game IIRC. I've never seen him play myself but have heard very good things. Can play just about anywhere from 10/12/13 and 15 but Ulster seem to be grooming him as a 15. I'm sure all the provinces have guys like him, time will tell if they make it though.One of the things I really enjoy about this site is all the talk of youngsters with potential. It is great to have the heads up for when these lads come through and start playing ML games. As you said blackadder, don't think Irish rugby is in a bad place.

dropkick
20th-October-2011, 19:16
I think the 2011 squad had about 15 changes from the 2007 world cup squad. Considering Ireland was on average the oldest squad in the WC I think we'll see about 15 changes at least for the 2015 squad.


I mentioned those guys but I didn't include them in the list because they've yet to play professionally. There's 41 players I've mentioned 21 potential players and 20 current players, there are probably 10 others (number randomly plucked out of the air to be fair!) like Furlong and McGrath in the Academies who could be in contention in four years time. For example four years ago I'd never heard of Connor Murray. I'll throw another name at you to keep an eye on up at Ulster, Peter Nelson, he's only 18 and just in the Ulster Academy but played for the senior side in pre season and in fact benched for us in our first Pro 12 game IIRC. I've never seen him play myself but have heard very good things. Can play just about anywhere from 10/12/13 and 15 but Ulster seem to be grooming him as a 15. I'm sure all the provinces have guys like him, time will tell if they make it though.

Chris Farrell looks a good prospect too at 12. 6ft 4 and 16st already with decent pace and good hands.

blackadder
21st-October-2011, 12:35
I think the 2011 squad had about 15 changes from the 2007 world cup squad. Considering Ireland was on average the oldest squad in the WC I think we'll see about 15 changes at least for the 2015 squad.



Chris Farrell looks a good prospect too at 12. 6ft 4 and 16st already with decent pace and good hands.

I've seen Farrell play a couple of times, given his size and other qualities he looks exactly the sort of 12 that will become the in thing moving forward.

As far as 12s are concerned in general if you can combine power and pace with good hands then you have the makings of a modern day 12. SBW is a good example, yes he's a big man who can get over the gainline but he has incredible hands to go with that.

The Outlaw
22nd-October-2011, 10:03
I've seen Farrell play a couple of times, given his size and other qualities he looks exactly the sort of 12 that will become the in thing moving forward.

As far as 12s are concerned in general if you can combine power and pace with good hands then you have the makings of a modern day 12. SBW is a good example, yes he's a big man who can get over the gainline but he has incredible hands to go with that.

dont agree. if youre not 6 ft 3 and 15 stone forget about 12. thats the way the game is going unfortunately.

Adam1986
22nd-October-2011, 13:07
Have to agree with outlaw the days of the dancing stepping 12 are coming to an end. the two most effective 12's at the WC this year are defintely Nonu and Roberts both huge physical guys who smash through the first defender darcy the old stepping 12 bar one or two good moments was largely ineffective. Pity because we seem to produce better stepping 12 types that we do bashers.

the plastic paddy
22nd-October-2011, 17:41
dont agree. if youre not 6 ft 3 and 15 stone forget about 12. thats the way the game is going unfortunately.According to dropkick, Farrell is 6 ft 4 and sixteen stone with good hands. Is that too big, Outlaw?

The Outlaw
22nd-October-2011, 19:01
According to dropkick, Farrell is 6 ft 4 and sixteen stone with good hands. Is that too big, Outlaw?

I was responding to his last paragraph. Power and pace are irrelevent without the size. I wouldnt even look at a 12 who isnt the dimensions i mentioned.

Clubman
22nd-October-2011, 19:56
dont agree. if youre not 6 ft 3 and 15 stone forget about 12. thats the way the game is going unfortunately.

Are you listening to that Joe Schmidt?

Mcork
23rd-October-2011, 09:52
According to dropkick, Farrell is 6 ft 4 and sixteen stone with good hands. Is that too big, Outlaw? thank god you're not involved in coaching

blackadder
23rd-October-2011, 18:15
dont agree. if youre not 6 ft 3 and 15 stone forget about 12. thats the way the game is going unfortunately.

You disagree? Are we not saying the same thing? What I said was that if you're big, quick and powerful and have good hand as well then you have makings of the perfect modern day 12.

Clubman
23rd-October-2011, 20:41
You disagree? Are we not saying the same thing? What I said was that if you're big, quick and powerful and have good hand as well then you have makings of the perfect modern day 12.

Tailormade for SOB be the sounds of it. :D

blackadder
24th-October-2011, 09:55
Tailormade for SOB be the sounds of it. :D

Maybe not as stupid as an idea as it initially sounds!

Centre and flanker require some of the same skills I suppose, at least defensively and carrying wise. I've always thought that BOD would be one of the best Opensides in the world if he played there.

Aussiedub
24th-October-2011, 10:48
Maybe not as stupid as an idea as it initially sounds!

Centre and flanker require some of the same skills I suppose, at least defensively and carrying wise. I've always thought that BOD would be one of the best Opensides in the world if he played there.

A bit of work on his handling skills and then could be a very good No12.

the plastic paddy
24th-October-2011, 10:52
Maybe not as stupid as an idea as it initially sounds!

Centre and flanker require some of the same skills I suppose, at least defensively and carrying wise. I've always thought that BOD would be one of the best Opensides in the world if he played there.With all the 6s we have in irish rugby, would it be worth trying to convert a couple to play 12? Chris Farrell sounds promising because with his height and levers he could develope a serious offloading game which is what I would like to see to bring out the pace and potential of Bowe, Earls, Conway, Carr, Fitzgerald, Jones, Gilroy etc.

Cowboy
24th-October-2011, 10:56
Much and all as I think SOB at 12 could work. I think it would be a huge waste of his massive talent. He has the potential to be one of Irelands all time great backrow forwards. And packs win matches, why take arguably our most destructive ball carrier away from his place of comfort for the sake of a problem position at 12? He's finding his feet on the international stage and people want to pull the rug from under him? Leave him alone and let him develop his game, if he keeps progressing at the rate he's been doing so for the last 12 months he could outstrip any other player in our current backrow, and openside isn't beyond the realms of possibility, he's certainly low to the ground. We'll find a lumux for the 12 jersey, keep the pack ticking over. Our pack is our strongest asset these days so IMO dont go removing one of its weapons.

hooke
24th-October-2011, 11:19
Nonu was exceptional player combined mass, with speed, good hands and good feet...while Jamie Roberts has some of this he tends to be more of a smash em merchant (hands arent bad)..so game is becoming more like rugby league and smaller guys (eg Earls, Luke Fitz, Bowe...) should stay on wings or get killed !!!

kahalui
24th-October-2011, 11:24
Leave SOB in the BR. Heaslip to 12 for the upcoming 6N.

AndyB
24th-October-2011, 11:52
SOB at 12 is the most stupid idea I have heard in a long while. I have never seen him actually pass the ball in any match for ireland or Leinster.

Red Hand Hero
24th-October-2011, 12:39
SOB at 12 is the most stupid idea I have heard in a long while. I have never seen him actually pass the ball in any match for ireland or Leinster.

No worse than the Leamy to hooker suggestion.

Regarding the requirements of a modern-day 12 I'd suggest that there hasn't been that much of a change really; most teams go for either a Basher or a second 5/8 style player depending on a vareity of factors. In D'Arcy we had a player who was neither a beast nor a great distributor but he had excellent feet, great power-weight ratio and alongside BOD formed an excellent partnership in both defence and attack for nearly a decade at international level. Sadly age waits for no man and Dorse looks a shadow of the player he once was in both attack and defence. For Ireland he has simply had too many average to poor games in the last 12-18 months to make it worth the persistence. Ironically of course despite his downward form curve replacing him will not be an easy task with no obvious heir-apparent. I'm not sure if BOD's head could take the punishment of another 2 seasons as a 12 and lets not forget he's still probably the best 13 in the NH whether or not he has lost a bit of pace.

Would personally like to see Spence put into the 12 shirt alongside BOD for the 6N but that is dependent on him keeping his starting berth for Ulster, which is not a given at present.

dropkick
24th-October-2011, 13:29
Size matters in rugby but there are other factors involved too. If players lack skill or decision making for example they're not going to be good for the team. Teams need to have multiple ways of attacking and a big center is an obvious one but not something every team must have. Conrad Smith is more of a team player than Sonny Bill Williams even though on paper SBW looks more impressive. Its the subtle skills Smith brings to the table that are most impressive. So I wouldn't go overboard on the big center issue although its clear they can be very handy players for any team to have.

Nonu is effective mainly because he is not a one trick pony.

D'Arcys strengths WERE his running ability and his work at the breakdown but since the laws changed he has been less effective and wear and tear as well as injuries have caught up with him. Even his solid defense is shaky these days. Spence looks like a younger version. I'm not convinced by Spence yet but hes better than D'Arcy now and will get better. He needs to show he has the skills to play center at international level.

the plastic paddy
24th-October-2011, 13:46
Size matters in rugby but there are other factors involved too. If players lack skill or decision making for example they're not going to be good for the team. Teams need to have multiple ways of attacking and a big center is an obvious one but not something every team must have. Conrad Smith is more of a team player than Sonny Bill Williams even though on paper SBW looks more impressive. Its the subtle skills Smith brings to the table that are most impressive. So I wouldn't go overboard on the big center issue although its clear they can be very handy players for any team to have.

Nonu is effective mainly because he is not a one trick pony.

D'Arcys strengths WERE his running ability and his work at the breakdown but since the laws changed he has been less effective and wear and tear as well as injuries have caught up with him. Even his solid defense is shaky these days. Spence looks like a younger version. I'm not convinced by Spence yet but hes better than D'Arcy now and will get better. He needs to show he has the skills to play center at international level. Good post and agree re merits of Smith but would say it is SBW or Nonu and Smith. Nonu and SBW wouldn't work as well. I would like a big 12 and a Smith/ BOD 13, two unsubtle lumps doesn't work as well (not that Nonu or SBW are unsubtle) but a fella who straightens the line and keeps the 10, 12 channel honest creates a rake of space outside IMHO. Will be interesting to see how Downey gets on against Mafi in HEC and also how he goes against the scarlets. Surely that would have to be some sort of trial. Still think he might do a job for Ireland for a couple of years.

Clubman
24th-October-2011, 17:20
Maybe not as stupid as an idea as it initially sounds!

Centre and flanker require some of the same skills I suppose, at least defensively and carrying wise. I've always thought that BOD would be one of the best Opensides in the world if he played there.

Was said in jest actually Blackadder and more in respose to The Oracle than your good self.

Actually, SOB needs to start keeping the head up going into contact to spot the offloads as a backrow, so as he stands wouldn't fit the bill at all.

budgetwinger
24th-October-2011, 18:23
Nonu was exceptional player combined mass, with speed, good hands and good feet...while Jamie Roberts has some of this he tends to be more of a smash em merchant (hands arent bad)..so game is becoming more like rugby league and smaller guys (eg Earls, Luke Fitz, Bowe...) should stay on wings or get killed !!!

In fairness Nonu was a bit part player for a long while. When he was just a bosh merchant the ABs weren't interested. It was only in 2008 when he suddenly kicked on out of nowhere (adding hands and vision to his game) that he became first choice. Roberts at his best is ahead of where Nonu is at his age I'd say.

blackadder
24th-October-2011, 18:31
Was said in jest actually Blackadder and more in respose to The Oracle than your good self.

Actually, SOB needs to start keeping the head up going into contact to spot the offloads as a backrow, so as he stands wouldn't fit the bill at all.

I wasn't been particularly serious either but at the same time I've heard stupider out of the box thinking.

I like the idea of a BOD and Bowe
midfield for now.

Fetcher
24th-October-2011, 22:50
Schmidt on...

"People ask 'how do we get a world-class centre after Brian?' Well, Tommy Bowe has played there, Keith Earls is a class act, Luke Fitzgerald has been playing midfield for us, there is Fergus McFadden and we're hoping Eoin O'Malley will continue to develop with us. Nevin Spence is a real prospect -- he is combative and has got great leg change in his steps --so there are players there."
Ireland (http://searchtopics.independent.ie/topic/Ireland)'s second-row 'crisis'
"Second-row has been mentioned as a problem area but Donnacha Ryan did really well at the World Cup and you have got guys like Devin Toner, who has been going really well, Ian Nagle, Dan Tuohy. People are saying there is no one to take over from Paul O'Connell (http://searchtopics.independent.ie/topic/Paul_O%27Connell) and, yeah, he is world class, but I wouldn't say Pat McCabe is world class for Australia (http://searchtopics.independent.ie/topic/Australia_national_football_team) or Aaron Cruden is yet for New Zealand (http://searchtopics.independent.ie/topic/New_Zealand_national_football_team), so it's a question of giving guys a go."
Dominic Ryan as a future Ireland No 7
"Dominic has made great progress -- he's a good athlete and has a great temperament and work ethic. He is 21 and will be 25 in 2015, he's fast and athletic and I think playing No 7 is realistic for him and for Rhys Ruddock, who is very quick as well. They can both get down and poach on the ball but I think Sean O'Brien is a great No 7. People say Ireland suffered for not having a No 7 but I thought the Irish back-row went really well."
Irish Independent

The man speaks sense as well as arguably being the best backs coach in the northern hemisphere. Read somewhere else in the Indo that Elwood was going to be the next Irish backs coach. Would be a stupid move by the IRFU but not beyond the realms of possibility.

busbi
24th-October-2011, 23:36
SOB to 12? I'd say Dermot is having a canary reading that.

lactose intolerant
24th-October-2011, 23:37
SOB to 12? I'd say Dermot is having a canary reading that.

ah now let's be fair...with a bit of gametime he might be alright there :p

Aussiedub
25th-October-2011, 08:49
SOB at 12 is the most stupid idea I have heard in a long while. I have never seen him actually pass the ball in any match for ireland or Leinster.

You miss the offload for Tommy Bowe's disallowed try then for example against Italy?

McNab
25th-October-2011, 08:52
Schmidt on...

"People ask 'how do we get a world-class centre after Brian?' Well, Tommy Bowe has played there, Keith Earls is a class act, Luke Fitzgerald has been playing midfield for us, there is Fergus McFadden and we're hoping Eoin O'Malley will continue to develop with us. Nevin Spence is a real prospect -- he is combative and has got great leg change in his steps --so there are players there."
Ireland (http://searchtopics.independent.ie/topic/Ireland)'s second-row 'crisis'
"Second-row has been mentioned as a problem area but Donnacha Ryan did really well at the World Cup and you have got guys like Devin Toner, who has been going really well, Ian Nagle, Dan Tuohy. People are saying there is no one to take over from Paul O'Connell (http://searchtopics.independent.ie/topic/Paul_O'Connell) and, yeah, he is world class, but I wouldn't say Pat McCabe is world class for Australia (http://searchtopics.independent.ie/topic/Australia_national_football_team) or Aaron Cruden is yet for New Zealand (http://searchtopics.independent.ie/topic/New_Zealand_national_football_team), so it's a question of giving guys a go."
Dominic Ryan as a future Ireland No 7
"Dominic has made great progress -- he's a good athlete and has a great temperament and work ethic. He is 21 and will be 25 in 2015, he's fast and athletic and I think playing No 7 is realistic for him and for Rhys Ruddock, who is very quick as well. They can both get down and poach on the ball but I think Sean O'Brien is a great No 7. People say Ireland suffered for not having a No 7 but I thought the Irish back-row went really well."
Irish Independent

The man speaks sense as well as arguably being the best backs coach in the northern hemisphere. Read somewhere else in the Indo that Elwood was going to be the next Irish backs coach. Would be a stupid move by the IRFU but not beyond the realms of possibility.

Joe is a lovely lad and he wouldn't say a bad word about anyone. He's an excellent coach but these comments are very banal and only agree with what everyone thought already. He could have said, "yeah, all these players are good and they all have a chance" and it would have had as much meaning. It reads as if the journalist never met him and completely fabricated his responses.

McNab
25th-October-2011, 08:54
Also, SOB is not a 12 just like BOD and D'Arcy would never play at 7.
Ferris to 4 is another one that won't ever happen, although i'd like to see it tried before the other things been thrown out there.