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kahalui
7th-July-2011, 13:32
Despite being an IRFU project player, Borlase, will be lucky to get hiss place in Munstermatchdaysquadsnext season, if his stints from this past season are anything to go by.


Ricardt Strauss is an entirelydifferent story. His eligibilty date issoon approaching and he's been very impressive for the ladys.


Ive got mixed feelings on the subject. What are posters views onproject players (in this case, Strauss)representing Ireland?

Cecil
7th-July-2011, 13:37
Yeah thats a fair point, Strauss was an excellent signing for
Munster and for Ireland. We need Props for Munster and
Ireland so hopefully Borlase can progress this season.

zeno
7th-July-2011, 13:47
Yeah thats a fair point, Strauss was an excellent signing for

Munster and for Ireland. We need Props for Munster and

Ireland so hopefully Borlase can progress this season.

For Leinster?

Ruck
7th-July-2011, 13:52
I hate the idea of these project players. I want Irish people, or people who've grown up in Ireland at least, to represent us. Not some blow in who just wasn't good enough for his own country. Don't care if they're still better than what we have.

blackadder II
7th-July-2011, 13:54
I hate the idea of these project players. I want Irish people, or people who've grown up in Ireland at least, to represent us. Not some blow in who just wasn't good enough for his own country. Don't care if they're still better than what we have.


Agree completely. I like the Project Players strengthening the provinces but I don't want them playing for Ireland. We've never had so much depth in Irish rugby anyway so why do we need these guys?

Jandek
7th-July-2011, 13:57
No, no, Cecil is correct. Strauss has just signed on the dotted line and Munster now have 6 hookers for next season. Any more and we can open a brothel...


BTW, Borlase is very Oirish, insofar as he is a prop who cannot scrummage.

Cecil
7th-July-2011, 14:16
No, no, Cecil is correct. Strauss has
just signed on the dotted line and Munster now have 6
hookers for next season. Any more and we can open a
brothel...


BTW, Borlase is very Oirish, insofar as he is a prop who
cannot scrummage.

Sorry obviously meant Leinster.

I think its a bit premature to say that he can't scrummage.
Don't forget that it wasn't too long ago when Munster
thought that a certain Mike Ross couldn't scrummage
either. Borlase would have gotten more Super 14 caps
only for he was behind the Franks Brothers.

Jandek
7th-July-2011, 14:21
@Cecil



Ross was always a good scrummager. Unfortunately, DK felt he was not active enough in the loose, and thus he tried to convert Buckley into aTH, whichdidn't work out that well...

Christy
7th-July-2011, 14:22
I hate the idea of these project players. I want Irish people, or people who've grown up in Ireland at least, to represent us. Not some blow in who just wasn't good enough for his own country. Don't care if they're still better than what we have.

I completely agree. But with nearly every other major rugby country doing it why shouldn't we

Paulie Walnuts
7th-July-2011, 14:32
Richardt Strauss. My bestest most favourite Leinster player in the whole wide world. As long as he keeps that traitor Cronin warming the bench, that is.

JoeyFantastic
7th-July-2011, 14:36
Richardt Strauss. My bestest most
favourite Leinster player in the whole wide world. As long as
he keeps that traitor Cronin warming the bench, that is.


Twas Kidney who sent Cronin to Leinster. Hopefully Sherry
will prove Kidney right.

Cecil
7th-July-2011, 14:36
<SPAN
=postUsername>@Cecil</SPAN>


Ross was always a good scrummager. Unfortunately, DK
felt he was not active enough in the loose, and thus he tried to
convert Buckley into a*TH, which*didn't work out that
well...**

I couldn't have said that he was a good scrummager at the
time as I didn't see him play with Munster but I take your
point.

Paulie Walnuts
7th-July-2011, 14:54
Richardt Strauss. My bestest most
favourite Leinster player in the whole wide world. As long as
he keeps that traitor Cronin warming the bench, that is.


Twas Kidney who sent Cronin to Leinster. Hopefully Sherry
will prove Kidney right.


Where did you see that, Joey? It was my understanding that both Leinster and Munster approached Cronin and he chose them? Strauss , Cronin and Sherry are all not that far apart in age ( and Best not too much older) ,Flanner and Varley are getting on, why did Kidney want him to go there, and how do you know?

Balla Boy
7th-July-2011, 15:00
Generally, I'd say I'm against. I'd rather we never won another 6 nations than ended up with the sort of squad composition that England have.

Jandek
7th-July-2011, 15:01
Obviously, I would love if Borlase proves me wrong.However, if you've seen him scrummage for Munster thenyou know this is very unlikely. All this talk about "jet-lag" and "needing to acclimatise" is risible. A prop doesn't cross the equator and forget how to scrummage.


Unfortuantely, we appear to have spent a lot of money acquiring Buckley's antipodean doppelganger.

Dumptruck
7th-July-2011, 15:05
Sean was offered terms by Munster , Leinster and Connacht. Both Munsters and Leinsters were the same , Sean was then told it was up to him where he wanted to go... Sean made the decision , nobody else.

colster
7th-July-2011, 15:27
Richardt Strauss. My bestest most favourite
Leinster player in the whole wide world. As long as he keeps that traitor
Cronin warming the bench, that is.

Traitor!! That's a bit harsh and hypocritical considering Leinster wanted
Felix Jones to stay.

the plastic paddy
7th-July-2011, 15:58
Have the rules changed regarding residency? And if so, when? Actually with Strauss, think the fella has commited to Ireland at a relativelyyoung age and even if the Saffers came calling he would turn them down. This whole issue has got to be sorted out but given it suits the rest of the rugby world very well as it is, Matawira in SA, Pocock in Aus, the multitude of islanders in NZ and nearly the entire English team can't see stricter rules being bought in any time soon so I suppose what's good for the goose has to be good for the gander; while it makes me uncomfortable, the only man who will keep Strauss out of the Irish side once he qualifies will be Jerry Flannery. By the time we get to the AIs in 2012 I would be confident that Irelands first choice hooker will be Sherry so won't be an issue.

JoeyFantastic
7th-July-2011, 16:00
Oddly enough, just looking at the Munster squad on wiki,
which I assume was updated by Munster, is Borlase already
Irish qualified? I understood that he wasn't but it's a strange
oversight to make to list him as Irish if it is Munster editing
that page.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munster_rugby#Playing_Squad_2
011.2F2012

ciaranb
7th-July-2011, 16:53
I hate the idea of these project players. I
want Irish people, or people who've grown up in Ireland at
least, to represent us. Not some blow in who just wasn't
good enough for his own country. Don't care if they're still
better than what we have.

It's not an ideal situation relying on ''naturalised'' players
I'll give you that - but if we don't start cheating for want of
a better word in this manner as most other countries do - a
time will come when we are left behind. NZ the perfect
example - rugby's answer to the Aryan race + half their
players are from the Pacific Islands. It's part of the game
at the highest level + at this stage it's climb on board or
get left behind IMO.

JoeyFantastic
7th-July-2011, 16:58
I hate the idea of these
project players. I
want Irish people, or people who've grown up in Ireland at
least, to represent us. Not some blow in who just wasn't
good enough for his own country. Don't care if they're still
better than what we have.

It's not an ideal situation relying on ''naturalised'' players
I'll give you that - but if we don't start cheating for want of
a better word in this manner as most other countries do - a
time will come when we are left behind. NZ the perfect
example - rugby's answer to the Aryan race + half their
players are from the Pacific Islands. It's part of the game
at the highest level + at this stage it's climb on board or
get left behind IMO.

Most of the "Island" players were born and bred in NZ.
Even a good number of the "Island" players in the next
RWC for Samoa, Tonga and Fiji will have been born and
bred in NZ. The poaching myth is something that gained
ground with little enough proof.

peatbog
7th-July-2011, 17:02
I hate the idea of these
project players. I
want Irish people, or people who've grown up in Ireland at
least, to represent us. Not some blow in who just wasn't
good enough for his own country. Don't care if they're still
better than what we have.

It's not an ideal situation relying on ''naturalised'' players
I'll give you that - but if we don't start cheating for want of
a better word in this manner as most other countries do - a
time will come when we are left behind. NZ the perfect
example - rugby's answer to the Aryan race + half their
players are from the Pacific Islands. It's part of the game
at the highest level + at this stage it's climb on board or
get left behind IMO.

Most of the "Island" players were born and bred in NZ.
Even a good number of the "Island" players in the next
RWC for Samoa, Tonga and Fiji will have been born and
bred in NZ. The poaching myth is something that gained
ground with little enough proof. Good point, I've played with 5 Samoan internationals, all of them born and raised in NZ.

ciaranb
7th-July-2011, 17:04
Well go beyond NZ then - Aus have one or two naturalised
players as do South Africa - that's not taking France, England,
Italy, Argentina into account who do or have done used these
players in the past and will do in the future.

blackadder II
7th-July-2011, 18:36
The one that gets me is Jared Payne. Now on the one hand I'm delighted he'll be coming to Ulster next season, he'll add a lot of class and experience to our young backline. However as things stand if he gets called up by the ABs in the summer he'll go off and get capped by then and that's fine...if he doesn't get capped in the summer he'll be eligible to play for Ireland in three years time. I just don't think that's right. We've enough of our own homegrown talent without going down this route.


We don't need Strauss we have Flannery, Best, Cronin and Sherry


We don't need Payne, in three years time we'll have Earls, McFadden, Bowe, Fitzgerald, Kearney, Trimble, Jonesand several talented younger lads like Gilroy and Conway as well.


The IRB should tighten the rules up a bit, for a start if a player has represented a country at U20 level then that should tie them down. I'm sure the vast majority of international players will play U20 rugby so that could solve the problem in an instant.They should also extend the residency period to five years, that way a player can't just decide at 24 or 25 to "change" countries.

Aiden7
7th-July-2011, 18:40
Oddly enough, just looking at the Munster squad on wiki,

which I assume was updated by Munster, is Borlase already

Irish qualified? I understood that he wasn't but it's a strange

oversight to make to list him as Irish if it is Munster editing

that page.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munster_rugby#Playing_Squad_2

011.2F2012

I also was under the impression Borlase was not Irish qualified unless he has suddenly managed to find an Irish grandparent ala Fluelty and Waldrom both finding english grandparents when needed. The thing with wiki is that anyone can edit it.

JoeyFantastic
7th-July-2011, 18:43
Oddly enough, just looking at the
Munster squad on wiki,
which I assume was updated by Munster, is Borlase
already
Irish qualified? I understood that he wasn't but it's a
strange
oversight to make to list him as Irish if it is Munster editing
that page.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munster_rugby#Playing_Squad
_2
011.2F2012I also was under the impression
Borlase was not Irish qualified unless he has suddenly
managed to find an Irish grandparent ala Fluelty and
Waldrom both finding english grandparents when needed.
The thing with wiki is that anyone can edit it.

True, but why would anyone be bothered to edit it? Usually
I'd put it down to a typo on whoever updated the page but
seeing as Waldrom seemingly didn't realise he was English
qualified until a year after he arrived, I wonder could
something similar have happened in this instance?

I've no idea how eligibility wouldn't be sorted out at the
earliest stages of a contract but if Leicester could overlook
it anyone could.

tickettout
7th-July-2011, 18:51
Back on topic - Strauss should be no where near our Irish team.


I'd rather lose with our own side than win with a pick and mix side.

Aiden7
7th-July-2011, 18:58
It would be good if a similar thing has happened then Munster could go to the irfu and claim another 'project player' as so far Borlase has not proved to be value for money, tho i am hopeful this season coming he will prove me wrong as the few clips I have seen of him from the NPC he looked to be a good scrummager.

You are right if leicester could manage to overlook an english grandparent then Munster can definitely mange to overlook it.

The Outlaw
7th-July-2011, 19:12
Back on topic - Strauss should be no
where near our Irish team.


I'd rather lose with our own side than win with a pick and
mix side.

He'll walk in when he's elligible. Based on last season anyway.

Sherry could be next best unless Cronin's throwing improves.

Jandek
7th-July-2011, 19:18
Suretisn't his ol' ladyz ol' man from Moneygall...


"O'Leary, O'Reilly, O'Hara and Hayes,


There's no one as Irish as Peter Borlase."

Aiden7
7th-July-2011, 19:22
[QUOTE=tickettout]

Back on topic - Strauss should be no

where near our Irish team.



I'd rather lose with our own side than win with a pick and

mix side.



He'll walk in when he's elligible. Based on last season anyway.



Sherry could be next best unless Cronin's throwing improves.[/QUOTE

when does he qualify i guess it will be after 2012 6 nations? based on last season he would easily walk onto the team, hopefully Sherry will get a good amount of gametime this season as Varley and fogs are not great, Sherry has been very impressive in the games he has played in, he will def play for Ireland in the next 2 years

slipper1
7th-July-2011, 19:23
What's the story with this Steven Sykes dude ?


He was talking about playing for Ireland the minute he signed for Leinster, is he even eligible as he's played for the Emerging Springboks ? I suppose if Toner can get capped, anyone can.

scotscor
7th-July-2011, 19:56
I hate the idea of these project players. I
want Irish people, or people who've grown up in Ireland at
least, to represent us. Not some blow in who just wasn't
good enough for his own country. Don't care if they're still
better than what we have.

It's not an ideal situation relying on ''naturalised'' players
I'll give you that - but if we don't start cheating for want of
a better word in this manner as most other countries do - a
time will come when we are left behind. NZ the perfect
example - rugby's answer to the Aryan race + half their
players are from the Pacific Islands. It's part of the game
at the highest level + at this stage it's climb on board or
get left behind IMO.
We discussed this a few weeks ago, NZ are about as pure as the driven snow
compared with just about everyone else on bringing in foreign born or reared
players.
Oz would have a good few, but the worst of the top tier nations by a mile is
England.
They are a laugh a minute with their notion of what makes someone English.

Would like an Irish team of Irish born or reared players, and would prefer a Munster
team fundamentally made of Munster players, and only if we are very weak in an
area going to the rest of the island, and only then if we are still stuck looking
abroad.

Dave Cahill
7th-July-2011, 20:42
The adoption of foreign born players isn't an ideal situation by
any means, but there is another side to it (leaving the project
player scheme to one side) that should be mentioned.

There are guys who have come over here to play professional
rugby, they have made their homes here, perhaps they've
married and had kids here, and become have part of their
adoptive communities.I'm thinking of guys like Andy Ward
or (leaving the A cap aside for the purposes of discussion)
Paul Warwick. Who is to say that they are less deserving of
representing what they now consider their home country?

The Word Is Born
7th-July-2011, 20:52
Ok then, let Strauss marry some Irish bint and get her up the duff a couple of times? Problem solved.

Charco
7th-July-2011, 21:02
Ok then, let Strauss marry some
Irish bint and get her up the duff a couple of times? Problem
solved.




smileys/lol.gif

Kevin77
8th-July-2011, 00:03
Not a fan of the idea as it exists. The example of David Pocock doesn't really work for me. He emigrated to Australia at 15 and played has played all of his senior rugby there.


I think it should come down to your birthplace, parents birthplace or alternatively you must have played a minimum of five consecutive years rugby in that country and be eligible for citizenship/passport

Kevin77
8th-July-2011, 00:11
Reading the above in more detail, there is a difference (how to administer it is the tricky part) between players born overseas who chose to play for their adopted country and those that are 'recruited' as project players specifically to become naturalised in three years time.


From an Irish perspective I would prefer to see Ireland field a team of players born in Ireland, reared in Ireland or of recent Irish extraction or who have made Ireland their home for a number (to be determined) of years.


I would not want to see someone excluded who's parents immigrated to Ireland, who has played their junior rugby there and wants to represent Ireland.


At the same time I would not be comfortable with Borlase or Strauss playing for Ireland. 3 years in their instance seems to be too soon.


I would question what would happen to them after 3 years if the current Irish coach said they were not good enough or if their home country decided they wanted to cap them?

Redhead
8th-July-2011, 07:07
I dont understand how you would want to play for another country, if you couldnt get selected for your own, dont understand it.

DONC
8th-July-2011, 08:02
So should Danny Barnes not have the chance to play for Ireland as I believe he was born in Auckland and did not come to Ireland until the ripe old age of 10?


I dont really go into the whole national guff, if someone declares for Ireland he has pinned his colours to the mast in that he cannot then play for anyone else. What is wrong with a person saying I live in Ireland, I like Ireland and I would like to represent Ireland as I feel at home here?


You canmake an argument that having choosen to play for a country other than that of your birth that you would try all the harder?

Balla Boy
8th-July-2011, 08:07
So should Danny Barnes not have the chance to play for Ireland as I believe he was born in Auckland and did not come to Ireland until the ripe old age of 10?


I dont really go into the whole national guff, if someone declares for Ireland he has pinned his colours to the mast in that he cannot then play for anyone else. What is wrong with a person saying I live in Ireland, I like Ireland and I would like to represent Ireland as I feel at home here?


You canmake an argument that having choosen to play for a country other than that of your birth that you would try all the harder?





It's not a question of country of birth, for my money. If you can acquire citizenship, then I think you can acquire the right to represent that country. If people have moved here, made a life here, are committed to the place etc etc then fair enough.


I think what people object to is the rather more cynical practice of people adopting those loyalties in order to play international rugby, and the sense that someone like Strauss probably couldn't give two f**ks whether it was in an Irish, Welsh, Scottish or English shirt.

ustix
18th-July-2011, 17:02
Ok then, let Strauss marry some
Irish bint and get her up the duff a couple of times? Problem
solved.


No, Wordo, you can't be saying that smileys/sad.gif

munchandolddolls
18th-July-2011, 19:13
super player.... what are the chances SA will try get him back?

Cathal
18th-July-2011, 19:32
So should Danny Barnes not have the
chance to play for Ireland as I believe he was born in
Auckland and did not come to Ireland until the ripe old age
of 10?


I dont really go into the whole national guff, if someone
declares for Ireland he has pinned his colours to the mast
in that he cannot then play for anyone else. What is wrong
with a person saying I live in Ireland, I like Ireland and I
would like to represent Ireland as I feel at home here?


You can*make an argument that having choosen to play
for a country other than that of your birth that you would
try all the harder?

Irish mom AFAIK and he's played the majority of his rugby
here if he arrived at 10.

Rebelruck
18th-July-2011, 20:32
No issue at all with him playing Ireland , hes a class act and is
miles better than Best.. The sooner we see him in green the
better..

the plastic paddy
19th-July-2011, 06:50
No issue at all with him playing Ireland , hes a class act and is
miles better than Best.. The sooner we see him in green the
better.. Will he be an Irish citizen? That is the criteria . The fella has commited to living in Ireland at a young age. Not like he has had a career playing league for NZ and then changed codes and nationswhich is ridiculous. I am very hopeful that he will have some fight on his hands for the no2 jersey with Sherry anyway and Cronin. It is a simple fact of life that there have always been immigrants and emmigrants. Sadly, of all nations, we are more painfully aware of that than most, why not use it to our advantage for once.

Ruck
19th-July-2011, 07:41
No issue at all with him playing Ireland , hes a class act and is miles better than Best.. The sooner we see him in green the better.. Will he be an Irish citizen? That is the criteria . The fella has commited to living in Ireland at a young age. Not like he has had a career playing league for NZ and then changed codes and nations*which is ridiculous. I am very hopeful that he will have some fight on his hands for the no2 jersey with Sherry anyway and Cronin. It is a simple fact of life that there have always been immigrants and emmigrants. Sadly, of all nations, we are more painfully aware of that than most, why not use it to our advantage for once.

Don't think he does. It's just IRB residency rules. After 3 years, he qualifies to play for the country he resides in, once he hasn't played for another country. Can't understand rebelrucks point of view. For example, if I were English, I would absolutely hate the way that their rugby team is headed.

i_like_cake
19th-July-2011, 07:47
Don't think he does. It's just IRB residency rules. After 3 years, he qualifies to play for the country he resides in, once he hasn't played for another country. Can't understand rebelrucks point of view. For example, if I were English, I would absolutely hate the way that their rugby team is headed.

Even worse if you were an actual English centre........smileys/razz.gif

Balla Boy
19th-July-2011, 08:00
Don't think he does. It's just IRB residency rules. After 3 years, he qualifies to play for the country he resides in, once he hasn't played for another country. Can't understand rebelrucks point of view. For example, if I were English, I would absolutely hate the way that their rugby team is headed.

Even worse if you were an actual English centre........smileys/razz.gif



Dan Hipkiss has applied for an SA passport in the hope of catching Martin Johnson's eye before the world cup.


Probably.

the plastic paddy
19th-July-2011, 08:14
Don't think he does. It's just IRB residency rules. After 3 years, he qualifies to play for the country he resides in, once he hasn't played for another country. Can't understand rebelrucks point of view. For example, if I were English, I would absolutely hate the way that their rugby team is headed.

Even worse if you were an actual English centre........smileys/razz.gif



Dan Hipkiss has applied for an SA passport in the hope of catching Martin Johnson's eye before the world cup.


Probably. smileys/lol.gif

galinka
19th-July-2011, 10:32
Borlase once had Irish Stew at Heathrow - surely that makes him eligible?

the plastic paddy
19th-July-2011, 10:40
No issue at all with him playing Ireland , hes a class act and is miles better than Best.. The sooner we see him in green the better.. Will he be an Irish citizen? That is the criteria . The fella has commited to living in Ireland at a young age. Not like he has had a career playing league for NZ and then changed codes and nationswhich is ridiculous. I am very hopeful that he will have some fight on his hands for the no2 jersey with Sherry anyway and Cronin. It is a simple fact of life that there have always been immigrants and emmigrants. Sadly, of all nations, we are more painfully aware of that than most, why not use it to our advantage for once.

Don't think he does. It's just IRB residency rules. After 3 years, he qualifies to play for the country he resides in, once he hasn't played for another country. Can't understand rebelrucks point of view. For example, if I were English, I would absolutely hate the way that their rugby team is headed. How long would Strauss need to live in Ireland to become an Irish citizen?

No. 16
19th-July-2011, 10:54
We could just get a double barrel pose together and force him to marry one of our wimen folk - then it's pretty much automatic - Give him a passport - and work him over a bit til he signs for the IRFU. I'm sure we could wrangle up an eligible bachelorette for this hunk - sure he nearly looks Irish too.

http://www.munsterfans.com//uploads/images/No16/BC3_blue-eye_2374622.jpg




OOPS: I see someone more eloquently beat me to that navel idea

Ok then, let Strauss marry some Irish bint and get her up the duff a couple of times? Problem solved.

Ruck
19th-July-2011, 18:47
How long would Strauss need to live in Ireland to become an Irish citizen?

5 years.

the plastic paddy
19th-July-2011, 19:34
How long would Strauss need to live in Ireland to become an Irish citizen?

5 years. So why is the IRB allowed to supercede national migration rulings? Could it be that it suits some nations within the rugby 'family' to allow player migration to be as easy as possible? I will give Richardt Strauss the benefit of the doubt however as I believe he has come to Ireland to stay and I wish him all the best in his battle with Sherry and Cronin to be Irelands no 2 in the future. On what I have seen, I think our fellawill give him and Croninsome run. And hoping against hope that Fla makes it back in which case they will all be pissing into the wind anyway.

offshorerules
20th-July-2011, 06:58
At the outset I want to say that I despise Martin Johnson. I really f***ing hate the arrogant pri*k. But I'm with him on this one. If Strauss is the best available, and he is available, then you select him. We have adopted plenty of plastic paddies in the past when it suited us so why not now? A point I made on another thread some time ago was that I can remember Ireland fielding a backline that only one person on it had been born in Ireland and that was even in the amateur era.

Hugonaut
20th-July-2011, 07:16
At the outset I want to say that I despise Martin Johnson. I really f***ing hate the arrogant pri*k. But I'm with him on this one. If Strauss is the best available, and he is available, then you select him. We have adopted plenty of plastic paddies in the past when it suited us so why not now? A point I made on another thread some time ago was that I can remember Ireland fielding a backline that only one person on it had been born in Ireland and that was even in the amateur era.



The backline that started against Australis in the 1991 RWC QF only had one Irish-born starter, Ralph Keyes:

9. Rob Saunders [Nottingham, UK]
10. Ralph Keyes [Cork, Ireland]
11. Jack Clarke [Kisumu, Kenya]
12. David Curtis [Salisbury, Zimbabwe/Rhodesia]
13. Brenny Mullin [Jerusalem, Israel]
14. Simon Geoghegan [Knebworth, UK]
15. Jim Staples [Bermondsey, UK]

Not that it's all that important where you're born, it's just an interesting bit of information.

the plastic paddy
20th-July-2011, 07:42
At the outset I want to say that I despise Martin Johnson. I really f***ing hate the arrogant pri*k. But I'm with him on this one. If Strauss is the best available, and he is available, then you select him. We have adopted plenty of plastic paddies in the past when it suited us so why not now? A point I made on another thread some time ago was that I can remember Ireland fielding a backline that only one person on it had been born in Ireland and that was even in the amateur era.



The backline that started against Australis in the 1991 RWC QF only had one Irish-born starter, Ralph Keyes:

9. Rob Saunders [Nottingham, UK]
10. Ralph Keyes [Cork, Ireland]
11. Jack Clarke [Kisumu, Kenya]
12. David Curtis [Salisbury, Zimbabwe/Rhodesia]
13. Brenny Mullin [Jerusalem, Israel]
14. Simon Geoghegan [Knebworth, UK]
15. Jim Staples [Bermondsey, UK]

Not that it's all that important where you're born, it's just an interesting bit of information.
And we weren't a million miles from beating them that day.

Old Dog
25th-June-2012, 10:36
No issue at all with him playing Ireland , hes a class act and is
miles better than Best.. ..

No he isn't.

Pony
25th-June-2012, 11:46
You can be sure he will be on the Irish bench come November and get a 5 min cameo just to tie him down.

Cowboy
25th-June-2012, 11:48
No he isn't.


I agree. Best is in the form of his life, would die for the jersey.

taz
25th-June-2012, 11:52
I agree. Best is in the form of his life, would die for the jersey.

OD is quoting a post from 12 months ago.

Cowboy
25th-June-2012, 11:55
OD is quoting a post from 12 months ago.

http://static.fjcdn.com/comments/Bitch+Please+you+just+changed+their+colors+_36c8d1 63ebe4d493fcf4e326903eaf80.jpg

the plastic paddy
25th-June-2012, 12:55
Fair enough the post is from a while ago but it shows how Rory best's game has come on in the last year that there is really no question that Strauss will be lucky to make the bench in the AIs at the most.

garryowen2323
25th-June-2012, 13:31
I wonder how young Mick got on in training

Old Dog
25th-June-2012, 13:37
I wonder how young Mick got on in training

Probably about as well as the 4 other non-playing tourists did. I predict the award of five Honourary doctorates from NUIG for advanced tackle bag holding in the Southern Hemisphere.

PEATB0G
25th-June-2012, 18:38
It's not a question of country of birth, for my money. If you can acquire citizenship, then I think you can acquire the right to represent that country. If people have moved here, made a life here, are committed to the place etc etc then fair enough.


I think what people object to is the rather more cynical practice of people adopting those loyalties in order to play international rugby, and the sense that someone like Strauss probably couldn't give two f**ks whether it was in an Irish, Welsh, Scottish or English shirt.


So why is the IRB allowed to supercede national migration rulings? Because not all citizenship criteria is the same the world over, or am i wrong? So, seeing as the IRB govern world rugby, the set their own criteria for playing rugby, the player would still have to geta visa etc should they require one afaik.

Now, i might be playing devils advocate here a little bit and realise the repercussions for professional rugby as a result but....going back to the whole IRFU NIQ quota's fiasco and the employment law restriction of trade issues that were mentioned in realtion to it....why is international rugby (seeing as its a source of income for players) exampt from not being allowed to prevent players from playing in their team.

Forgetting all Nationalism and even the sport for a minute, you've got a company that employs people to do a job for it. At the same time there are many people legally working in the country of that company who would like to work for that company but can't because they weren't born there,their parents weren't born there, or haven't lived there for 3 yrs continuously, or worse still, have worked for one of that companies competitors, however briefly. In how many areas of employment does this type of situation exist?

Back to the actual sporting side of it, part of me believes that Isa Nacewa for example or Mafi before he left, are more worthy of playing for Ireland and earning the money that flows from that, than say Simon Easterbuy and Rob Henderson were before they got their first caps. Nacewa and Mafi make big contributions to Irish rugby but are prevented from gaining some of the greatest rewards that can be attained in the Irish rugby ladder while Easterbuy and Hendo etc, automatically had that door open for them by the convenience of an irish born parent while making no contribution to the game in the country.

PS i know this is an old thread but thought it was interesting enough point to bring up.

PEATB0G
25th-June-2012, 18:49
I dont understand how you would want to play for another country, if you couldnt get selected for your own, dont understand it.

Elite sportsmen want to compete at the highest level possible, if that means settling for doing it for another team than the one they might have grown up dreaming to play for then it is, no doubt, one the things that they have to consider before doing so but entirely understandable imo. Add in the potential earnings(directly and indirectly) that are possible in a very short career and its even more understandable

the plastic paddy
25th-June-2012, 20:03
The other thing to factor in with a lot of the saffers permanently settled over in Europe is that many have emmigrated for quite serious reasons. I have met enough South Africans over the years with horror stories about that country to know that sitting in judgement on any one of them feeling they need to live and work elsewhere is mistaken in the extreme. Now I don't know what Richardt Strauss' motives were for coming to Ireland as a project player but the rules say three years, he has served the three years so he is now Irish qualified. If he plays for Ireland I wish him all the best. It might be a glib question but if a lad came to Ireland from say Somalia to escape the war that is going on, was granted asylum and three years later had shown himself to be an Olympic standard runner, would it be wrong for him to run for Ireland in the Olympics?

Evil Omer
25th-June-2012, 20:42
Whatever about anything else - and the digs at Henderson and Easterby to my mind are pathetic - Strauss isn't going to displace Best any time soon. One of the few things we learned on this tour is we have a couple of players (Healy and Best) as good as their opposite numbers (at least) and a couple more (Ryan and SOB) who made a case for themselves out there.

PEATB0G
25th-June-2012, 21:03
Whatever about anything else - and the digs at Henderson and Easterby to my mind are pathetic - Strauss isn't going to displace Best any time soon. One of the few things we learned on this tour is we have a couple of players (Healy and Best) as good as their opposite numbers (at least) and a couple more (Ryan and SOB) who made a case for themselves out there. Where are the 'digs' at Easterbuy and Henderson and whats pathetic about it?

I presume you're referring to my post. Did i say they shouldn't have played (or been allowed to) for Ireland?

I simply pointed out the fact that there's two examples of players who made virtually no contribution to Irish rugby prior to donning a green jersey, but despite being born and raised in another country are allowed to do by dint of the birthplace of a parent, while there are many other players prevented from playing for Ireland despite making a contribution (let alone a great one) to Irish rugby, assuming they wanted to play for Ireland that is. There's a certain degree of injustice there as far as i'm concerned.

jeepers
25th-June-2012, 21:40
The other thing to factor in with a lot of the saffers permanently settled over in Europe is that many have emmigrated for quite serious reasons. I have met enough South Africans over the years with horror stories about that country to know that sitting in judgement on any one of them feeling they need to live and work elsewhere is mistaken in the extreme. Now I don't know what Richardt Strauss' motives were for coming to Ireland as a project player but the rules say three years, he has served the three years so he is now Irish qualified. If he plays for Ireland I wish him all the best. It might be a glib question but if a lad came to Ireland from say Somalia to escape the war that is going on, was granted asylum and three years later had shown himself to be an Olympic standard runner, would it be wrong for him to run for Ireland in the Olympics?

If they were willing to take out Irish citizenship, then I'd be more than happy for any of them to represent us. As far as I know you need Irish citizenship to represent Ireland in the Olympics. (Takes 5 years on residency, or 3 years if your partner is an Irish citizen).

blackwarrior
25th-June-2012, 21:41
The other thing to factor in with a lot of the saffers permanently settled over in Europe is that many have emmigrated for quite serious reasons. .... It might be a glib question but if a lad came to Ireland from say Somalia to escape the war that is going on, was granted asylum and three years later had shown himself to be an Olympic standard runner, would it be wrong for him to run for Ireland in the Olympics?


Nacewa and Mafi make big contributions to Irish rugby but are prevented from gaining some of the greatest rewards that can be attained in the Irish rugby ladder while Easterbuy and Hendo etc, automatically had that door open for them by the convenience of an irish born parent while making no contribution to the game in the country.

Sorry Paddy - I don't see the relevance on your Somalian. If he was granted asylum and three years later he is still here, I think the country has done its bit frankly.

Peatbog - good point about Nacewa and Mafi, but, them's the rules, and at least they are consistent and unambiguous - or least they were until this residency fiasco.

I wrote on the CJ Stander thread that, IMO, this residency rule is a farce. I have absolutely no problem with the granny rule, because at least it's clearcut, and I value the diapora - genuinely. But qualifying to play for Ireland because your only link is a salary - sorry!

If Strauss gets capped, so be it. But I don't agree with the system, and I want it to stop.

the plastic paddy
26th-June-2012, 06:34
Sorry Paddy - I don't see the relevance on your Somalian. If he was granted asylum and three years later he is still here, I think the country has done its bit frankly.

Peatbog - good point about Nacewa and Mafi, but, them's the rules, and at least they are consistent and unambiguous - or least they were until this residency fiasco.

I wrote on the CJ Stander thread that, IMO, this residency rule is a farce. I have absolutely no problem with the granny rule, because at least it's clearcut, and I value the diapora - genuinely. But qualifying to play for Ireland because your only link is a salary - sorry!

If Strauss gets capped, so be it. But I don't agree with the system, and I want it to stop.Fair enough but wouldn't said Somalian hypothetically winning a Gold medal for his adoptive country be giving something back? Like I say, I am asking questions, as my moniker suggests I am not really in the position to be too strident in my own opinion. As it happens I am not a great fan of the system but as with a hell of a lot involving the IRB, including being forced to go on three test tours against the master race having not had a break in two years, there is very little we can do about it so we just have to accept it and make the best of a bad job.

PEATB0G
30th-June-2012, 13:06
Peatbog - good point about Nacewa and Mafi, but, them's the rules, and at least they are consistent and unambiguous - or least they were until this residency fiasco.

.

Them's the current rules. In a similar context to L.Welsh winnin they're appeal to play on the prem, why should the IRB be allowed to stop a player from earning money playing for the country he lives and works in.?

Or in a similar vein to the argument that the IRFU's new NIQ quota's idea was going to be in contravention of...was it Euro employment law? restriction of trade? Why is international rugby on a pedestal above that?

Evil Omer
1st-July-2012, 08:52
Where are the 'digs' at Easterbuy and Henderson and whats pathetic about it?

I presume you're referring to my post. Did i say they shouldn't have played (or been allowed to) for Ireland?

I simply pointed out the fact that there's two examples of players who made virtually no contribution to Irish rugby prior to donning a green jersey, but despite being born and raised in another country are allowed to do by dint of the birthplace of a parent, while there are many other players prevented from playing for Ireland despite making a contribution (let alone a great one) to Irish rugby, assuming they wanted to play for Ireland that is. There's a certain degree of injustice there as far as i'm concerned.

Wasn't aimed at you - look at the threads over the years on this site those 2, especially Easterby, have taken a massive amount of stick from people (probably in many cases using the "they're not Irish" line to just have a dig anyway). Sorry didn't post recent reply here but on other thread. My view is simple:

1. Playing for Ireland isn't a reward for services to Irish rugby. If it was then some guy from a junior club who player coaches them, coaches kids on Sundays etc would get a cap and most of the thoroughly devoted to their pro career guys we have wouldn't have been. (Not a dig just a statement of fact, guys like BOD are working at their job not delivering for Irish rugby).
2. By declaring and sticking to it (guys like Hendo and Geoghegan made it clear they were only interested in Ireland) these guys have done as much for Irish rugby. They've given an inspiration to the potential player base we have around UK (we are a nation of emigrants, if you ignore the oxymoron in that), to push for Ireland. We need a bigger player base, they've helped that by not taking up slots in Irish rugby. That is as much of a plus for Irish rugby as guys like BOD winning HEC's for themselves, their team-mates and Leinster pro rugby side.


Them's the current rules. In a similar context to L.Welsh winnin they're appeal to play on the prem, why should the IRB be allowed to stop a player from earning money playing for the country he lives and works in.?

Or in a similar vein to the argument that the IRFU's new NIQ quota's idea was going to be in contravention of...was it Euro employment law? restriction of trade? Why is international rugby on a pedestal above that?

Because that's exactly what it is, a separate level. International rugby is about representing your nation not a job that you can just apply for regardless. So it's not unfair to say you can't have guys changing nationality because of where they live. Would you drop your Irish passport because you were working in Sweden for 3 years? Being a foreign worker in a country is fine (within various levels of reason that are irrelevant to this discussion). Suddenly become a representative of that country on the back of your job isn't.

IRB aren't stopping someone earning money, they can earn money for their own country if they're good enough and if they're not then their own lack of talent is stopping them earning it. That's all it is. And this is nothing like London Welsh. Their point was two fold.

1. No one told them BEFORE they entered into the cost of the play offs that it was a pointless exercise. (And that is a point they've made, they wouldn't have wasted their time had they known).
2. Those rules are utterly hypocritical and set up to protect self interest - i.e. potentially create a monopoly which is illegal anyway in UK.

Neither of those are remotely like this situation. Players know clearly what is or isn't a cap. If they're unsure, then don't play for a country you don't want to play for. If you play for them then suck it up and accept your choices.

PEATB0G
1st-July-2012, 13:18
Playing for Ireland isn't a reward for services to Irish rugby. guys like BOD are working at their job not delivering for Irish rugby).


Because that's exactly what it is, a separate level. International rugby is about representing your nation not a job that you can just apply for regardless.

Guys like BOD are doing their job which they're centrally contracted to the IRFU to do, play for Ireland which they are handsomely paid to do it. Its their job and thats my point. Others are excluded from working there because of abitrary rules by a body(IRB) even though they're legally entitled to work in that country.


So it's not unfair to say you can't have guys changing nationality because of where they live. Would you drop your Irish passport because you were working in Sweden for 3 years? Would i have to? Being a foreign worker in a country is fine (within various levels of reason that are irrelevant to this discussion). Suddenly become a representative of that country on the back of your job isn't. But if you're part of something then surely you're entitled to be 'represented'? Or do the minorities lose out?

IRB aren't stopping someone earning money, they can earn money for their own country How much would Nacewa earn playing for Fiji in comparison to Ireland? if they're good enough and if they're not then their own lack of talent is stopping them earning it. That's all it is.


And this is nothing like London Welsh. Their point was two fold.

1. No one told them BEFORE they entered into the cost of the play offs that it was a pointless exercise. (And that is a point they've made, they wouldn't have wasted their time had they known).

You'll have to elaborate on L.Welsh's viewpoint as i'm not up scratch on it. Premiership entry criteria (just or not) of some sort has been in place for at least ten yrs now, the championship play-offs started in the 09/10 season and the deadline has been, for a few yrs now, the end of March to prove you could meet the criteria. What didn't they know about?

2. Those rules are utterly hypocritical and set up to protect self interest (a point i've alluded to in the Aviva premiership Thread)- i.e. potentially create a monopoly which is illegal anyway in UK.

Neither of those are remotely like this situation. Players know clearly what is or isn't a cap. If they're unsure, then don't play for a country you don't want to play for. If you play for them then suck it up and accept your choices.

I'll just cut and paste this paragraph from my earlier post again aswell to get you comments on it.

Forgetting all Nationalism and even the sport for a minute, you've got a company that employs people to do a job for it. At the same time there are many people legally working in the country of that company who would like to work for that company but can't because they weren't born there,their parents weren't born there, or haven't lived there for 3 yrs continuously, or worse still, have worked for one of that companies competitors, however briefly. In how many areas of employment does this type of situation exist?

Evil Omer
1st-July-2012, 13:42
I'll just cut and paste this paragraph from my earlier post again aswell to get you comments on it.

Forgetting all Nationalism and even the sport for a minute, you've got a company that employs people to do a job for it. At the same time there are many people legally working in the country of that company who would like to work for that company but can't because they weren't born there,their parents weren't born there, or haven't lived there for 3 yrs continuously, or worse still, have worked for one of that companies competitors, however briefly. In how many areas of employment does this type of situation exist?

This is the difference you're viewing playing for national team as a job, it's not. Playing for club/province is a job. Playing for national team is a representative honour based on being a recognised (by those rules) national of that country. The fact they are paid for their time and a cut of the money made from their representative rights isn't the same as being paid a salary for a job. That's the difference that the central contracts sort of blur but it's still the main thrust. It's not a job it's an honour based on your national qualification.

As for LW, I was told by guy I work with (very close to some people there) that they very smartly co-opted a lot of legal expertise into positions within the club. Came out when we were chatting about the number of press releases etc they threw out that with that knowledge were clearly prepping the ground. They went out from the start probably knowing they wouldn't qualify under these rules but also knowing the rules are rubbish. The problem for premiership clubs is they probably got the wrong club in terms of coming across people smart enough to take them on. It is totally different to the fact you can't claim to be Irish when you've already said you're Fijian or whatever. Nacewa was involved at senior level so has no real excuse, he made an oops and he's got to take the consequences. For me his is more about taking responsibility for your actions. He's not a child or a teenager badly advised who knows nothing.

PEATB0G
1st-July-2012, 17:06
This is the difference you're viewing playing for national team as a job, it's not. In your opinion? What about the likes of the english and NZ 7's players who primary role is to play rugby for a team that restricts them from playing for another team at the same level? 'Work for us and you can never work for anyone else a this level again' . all centrallty contracted players fall into this category in a way don't they? Playing for club/province is a job. Playing for national team is a representative honour based on being a recognised (by those rules) national of that country. The fact they are paid for their time and a cut of the money made from their representative rights isn't the same as being paid a salary for a job. That's the difference that the central contracts sort of blur but it's still the main thrust. It's not a job it's an honour based on your national qualification. Which i think to certain degree is ok for amateur sport but once money comes into it i think it changes things.

As for LW, I was told by guy I work with (very close to some people there) that they very smartly co-opted a lot of legal expertise into positions within the club. Had heard that alright, but i can't believe they didn't know the what was being demanded of them before they entered the play-offs. However, i'm glad they took on the powers that be and, so far, have won. Came out when we were chatting about the number of press releases etc they threw out that with that knowledge were clearly prepping the ground. They went out from the start probably knowing they wouldn't qualify under these rules but also knowing the rules are rubbish. The problem for premiership clubs is they probably got the wrong club in terms of coming across people smart enough to take them on. It is totally different to the fact you can't claim to be Irish when you've already said you're Fijian or whatever. This is where my 'argument' is stuck. Why should Nationalism come into it? I know you'll say its obviously because its interNATIONAL rugby and representative of that, but the Irish provinces were/are supposed to be representative aswell, water muddied by professionalism. As far as i'm aware there's less required of one to join the British Armed Forces and put your life on the line than there is to qualify to play rugby for a particular country. Does fighting for one Army prevent you from ever joining another? I'm clearly not grasping how international rugby & Football is so different from most other paid postions. Nacewa was involved at senior level so has no real excuse, he made an oops and he's got to take the consequences. For me his is more about taking responsibility for your actions. He's not a child or a teenager badly advised who knows nothing..

McCloud
7th-October-2013, 14:25
Richardt Strauss has been diagnosed with a heart condition and will be out of the game for the rest of the season according to thejournal. (http://thescore.thejournal.ie/richardt-strauss-heart-1118155-Oct2013/)

Bash
7th-October-2013, 14:32
Richardt Strauss has been diagnosed with a heart condition and will be out of the game for the rest of the season according to thejournal. (http://thescore.thejournal.ie/richardt-strauss-heart-1118155-Oct2013/)Holy crap best of luck to him and hopefully no complications will arise, heart issues should always be given the highest of concern!

munstershane
7th-October-2013, 14:37
Hopefully he makes a full recovery.

Will be an added bonus if he can come back playing competitively again.

barleys chinos
7th-October-2013, 14:42
Best of luck,fine player.

deltared
7th-October-2013, 14:59
Just saw the news on Richard. Puts all into perspective. best wishes to Richard and his family, hoping for a speedy recovery.

lahinch_lass
7th-October-2013, 16:23
Richardt Strauss has been diagnosed with a heart condition and will be out of the game for the rest of the season according to thejournal. (http://thescore.thejournal.ie/richardt-strauss-heart-1118155-Oct2013/)

Best wishes to him on a full & speedy recovery .. at least he hasn't been forced into retirement.

John Cooper Clarke
7th-October-2013, 16:35
Best wishes to him. Hopefully he makes a full and rapid recovery.

Tobyglen
7th-October-2013, 18:41
Poor guy. Wish him the best. Marcus Horan had an issue with his heart and came back to play for a season/2 after.
Simon Best had to retire. There must be a huge strain on the body to become an international standard prop.

Harry
7th-October-2013, 18:49
Very rough, best of luck to him and a speedy recovery

garryowen2323
7th-October-2013, 21:16
Awful news. Here's hoping he makes a full healthy recovery. As mentioned above, anything more than that will be a bonus for him.