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AdolphusGrigson
12th-June-2011, 09:24
UncharacteristicWelsh realism in response toIeuan(in comments section) but still no acceptance that the real problem is their lack of quality players.


http://www.walesonline.co.uk/rugbynation/rugby-news/2011/06/ (http://www.walesonline.co.uk/rugbynation/rugby-news/2011/06/11/wales-can-hit-glory-trail-in-world-cup-says-ieuan-evans-91466-28858381/) 11/wales-can-hit-glory-trail-in-world-cup-says-ieuan-evans-9 1466-28858381/

The Outlaw
12th-June-2011, 10:35
Uncharacteristic*Welsh
realism in response to*Ieuan*(in comments section) but still
no acceptance that the real problem is their lack of quality
players.


<a href="http://www.wales&#111;nline.co.uk/rugbynati&#111;n/rugby-
<br / target="_blank">news/2011/06/11/wales-can-hit-glory-trail-in-world-cup-
says-ieuan-evans-91466-28858381/">
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/rugbynation/rugby-
news/2011/06/ 11/wales-can-hit-glory-trail-in-world-cup-
says-ieuan-evans-9 1466-28858381/</a>


*

Because they dont lack quality. They have some genuises
in their ranks. James Hook and George North to name but
two. The root of all their evils is discipline.

John123
12th-June-2011, 10:48
George North is a genius?!? FFS I've heard it all now...and imho James Hook is a flawed genius, similar to Michalak.

The Outlaw
12th-June-2011, 11:24
George North is a genius?!?* FFS I've
heard it all now...and imho James Hook is a flawed genius,
similar to Michalak.


Hook is one of the best players in the world. A guy who can
play in 3 different positions to a very high standard at
international level.

Cecil
12th-June-2011, 11:46
North is definitely not what I would consider a genius!

Hook if such a term exists in rugby then he would be.

Cowboy
12th-June-2011, 12:22
How many current welsh forwards would make the Enhlish French or
Irish packs? Their back row is filled with either average or
inexperienced players. The crux of the issue with Wales for me is
Gatlands clearly limited gameplan. He has sucked every trace of free
flowing expressive rugby out of them. Decided to make them a team
hard to beat rather than a team looking to win. Classic wasps
formula, but Wales don't have the power or quality to force an arm
wrestle with better teams. They've nothing to compare to SOB Wally
Ferris or Paulie. If you can survive or outwit their rush defense they
run out of ideas. Class galore behind the pack. Too lightweight up
front.

AdolphusGrigson
12th-June-2011, 12:32
"They've nothing to compare to SOB Wally Ferris or Paulie. If you can survive or outwit their rush defense they run out of ideas. Class galore behind the pack. Too lightweight up Front. "


Agree - but they do agood line in props andyoung backrowimproving.


Hook has been fecked about,trouble is his carelessness/concentration/poorgame managmenthas cost them a few times at outside half forcing the manangment to go back to Stephen Jones.


Sooner or later, probably after Galtland gets the boot, he will tell us what he mustknow, that Wales have limited talent - mid ranking 6n team - with no likelyhood of that changing.

Hugonaut
12th-June-2011, 12:39
How many current welsh forwards would make the Enhlish French or

Irish packs? Their back row is filled with either average or

inexperienced players. The crux of the issue with Wales for me is

Gatlands clearly limited gameplan. He has sucked every trace of free

flowing expressive rugby out of them. Decided to make them a team

hard to beat rather than a team looking to win. Classic wasps

formula, but Wales don't have the power or quality to force an arm

wrestle with better teams. They've nothing to compare to SOB Wally

Ferris or Paulie. If you can survive or outwit their rush defense they

run out of ideas. Class galore behind the pack. Too lightweight up

front.

Just a non-vintage backrow at the moment - but Toby Faletau [20] and Dan Lydiate [23] from the Dragons] are young and improving fast, Ben Morgan [22] is a very big and hard-hitting ballcarrier at No8 for the Scarlets and Warburton [22] from Cardiff is an international class openside already.

The likes of Ryan Jones, Andy Powell [and to an extent Jonathan Thomas, although he's still producing better than the other two] are past-prime and not really getting it done, but Gatland has already started the changeover - Warburton and Lydiate started every game of the last 6 Nations.

If they can get Gethin Jenkins [30] and Adam Jones [30] fit at the same time, they'll have two of the best props in NH rugby, with Paul James giving good cover. The Bradley Davies [24]/Alun Wyn Jones [25] second row partnership is a good one two powerful and athletic forwards who are decent carriers.

They should have plenty of guys in the backs between Phillips, Peel, Biggar, Stephen Jones and Hook in the halves and Halfpenny, Roberts, North, Prydie, Williams and Davies in the threequarters ... and, while there was an element of self-destruction on the day, it should be remembered that they beat us this year in Cardiff.

Cowboy
12th-June-2011, 12:54
I agree they have youth coming through Hugo but they're very light
On experience and none of them come within a million miles of Ferris
and The Tank. Apart from the front row there isn't a single Welsh
forward would make it into our pack. The biggest issue for me is still
warren. He's ruined them and ignores the ethos of their style.
Granted they beat us but it was a fluke in many ways. We won't play
as badly for a while hopefully. Even their club game is in trouble. O's
falling apart. Blues are broke. Scarlets growing in fairness and
Dragons treading water. Their media will lead the populace that a
semi final spot is warranted and expected. Won't happen, Gatland
gets the curly finger and it'll all start all over again.

AdolphusGrigson
12th-June-2011, 13:03
Cowboy,


re "Class galore behind the pack"


How many Welsh backs would get into our team?


2 perhaps?


Simply blaming Gatland doesnt wash. Average 6ntem playing like an average 6n team, betterthan Scotland and Italy and worse than the rest.


They will probably change coach in less than a year and it will be the same again.

Cowboy
12th-June-2011, 13:13
I agree that very few of their backline would make the Ireland team
(this is irelands best backline of the professional era) but the backline
is Wales' strongest asset at the moment. They rely on Hook an insane
amount to make something game winning happen. His move to
France is a bright move. The french play a team mentality and they'll
suPport him

The Outlaw
12th-June-2011, 13:22
Cowboy,


re "Class galore behind the pack"


How many Welsh backs would get into our team?


2 perhaps?


Simply blaming Gatland doesnt wash.* Average 6n*tem
playing like an average 6n team, better*than Scotland and
Italy and worse than the rest.


They will probably change coach in less than a year and
it will be the same again.

They beat Ireland. Whoops.

Hook would walk into our backs. For years Williams
tormented us. Jones is on a par with ROG. Phillips is a mile
ahead of TOL.
Lee Byrne in his pomp was a fine fullback. Shanklin was a
terrific player in my opinion


You're talking way out of context in my view.

They may be the biggest shower of pr**ks on the planet.
But rugby is the national sport there, they produce a vast
variety of quality underage players. However there
structures, coaching ticket and the general attitude of their
players are there biggest weaknesses.

They did win 2 grand slams in the same period where we
won only one. You could argue that we completely under-
achieved with the squad we had.

cud_
12th-June-2011, 13:32
Uncharacteristic*Welsh
realism in response to*Ieuan*(in comments section) but still
no acceptance that the real problem is their lack of quality
players.


<a href="http://www.wales&#111;nline.co.uk/rugbynati&#111;n/rugby-
<br / target="_blank">news/2011/06/11/wales-can-hit-glory-trail-in-world-cup-
says-ieuan-evans-91466-28858381/">
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/rugbynation/rugby-
news/2011/06/ 11/wales-can-hit-glory-trail-in-world-cup-
says-ieuan-evans-9 1466-28858381/</a>


*

Because they dont lack quality. They have some genuises
in their ranks. James Hook and George North to name but
two. The root of all their evils is discipline.

Eh what?

AdolphusGrigson
12th-June-2011, 14:52
cowboy,


"(this is irelands best backline of the professional era) "


You are not implying surely that we had a better team pre professional era?


Outlaw,


"They beat Ireland. Whoops.

Hook would walk into our backs. For years Williams tormented us. Jones is on a par with ROG. Phillips is a mile ahead of TOL. Lee Byrne in his pomp was a fine fullback. Shanklin was a terrific player in my opinion "


Most of what you have mentioned there is terms of players is in the past and Phillips probably wouldnt get in tothe Irish side. A fit Roberts would displace D'arcy and thats about it.


Regarding National Sports, soccerball is the National sport of Scotland and they have been dreadful for years - small countries sometime produce only a few good players (and even big countires like England sometimes). Wales star backs are agingand theydont have a decent pack -they may do in 3 years but not at the momentand that is not down to Gatland but just the luck of the draw.

The Outlaw
12th-June-2011, 15:03
cowboy,


"(this is irelands best backline of the professional era) "



You are not implying surely that we had a better team
pre professional era?


Outlaw,


"They beat Ireland. Whoops. Hook would walk into our
backs. For years Williams tormented us. Jones is on a par
with ROG. Phillips is a mile ahead of TOL.* Lee Byrne in his
pomp was a fine fullback. Shanklin was a terrific player in
my opinion "


Most of what you have mentioned there is terms of
players is in the past and Phillips probably wouldnt get in
to*the Irish side. A fit Roberts would displace D'arcy and
thats about it.


Regarding National Sports, soccerball is the National
sport of Scotland and they have been dreadful for years -
small countries sometime produce only a few good players
(and even big countires like England sometimes).* Wales
star backs are aging*and they*dont have a decent pack -
they may do in 3 years but not at the moment*and that is
not down to Gatland but just the luck of the draw.


*


*

As I said Wales beat Ireland this year. The penny will drop
soon.

Cowboy
12th-June-2011, 15:08
I'm only old enough to remember the last few years of the amateur
game and all of Professional rugby. There could have been a backline
decades ago superior to this one, I don't know. That's why I
referenced the pro era. For my money we've been a much better
rugby nation for the last decade but that's for another thread. Half of
Wales' problems lie at the feet of their media, for blowing welsh rugby
achievements out of proportion. The other half is a useless
management team nationally and Poor club structures.

no-payne-no-gain
12th-June-2011, 18:28
all they need is Henson at 12 and hook at 10 and everything will be alright!!

Hugonaut
12th-June-2011, 19:22
I agree they have youth coming through Hugo but they're very light

On experience and none of them come within a million miles of Ferris

and The Tank. Apart from the front row there isn't a single Welsh

forward would make it into our pack. The biggest issue for me is still

warren. He's ruined them and ignores the ethos of their style.

Granted they beat us but it was a fluke in many ways. We won't play

as badly for a while hopefully. Even their club game is in trouble. O's

falling apart. Blues are broke. Scarlets growing in fairness and

Dragons treading water. Their media will lead the populace that a

semi final spot is warranted and expected. Won't happen, Gatland

gets the curly finger and it'll all start all over again.

They're missing a good captain as well - not even sure who their captain was this season. Was it Alun Wyn Jones?

With that said, the more I think of it, the more I'm surprised at just how far away from hitting any sort of form. They've got a good front row in Jenkins, Rees and Jones three starting Test Lions, and they actually acquitted themselves very well in South Africa, especially in the second test and a good second-row partnership which has excellent bulk and experience for a pair of relative youngsters [Davies is 120kg and has 22 caps at 24 years old, Jones is 117kg and has a whopping 49 caps at 25 years old]. You would think that that is as good a front five as there is in the 6 Nations, to be honest.

Shane Williams is a try-scoring fool - 53 in 79 tests, which is absolutely ridiculous stuff. They've got the option of a very nippy Halfpenny on the other wing or a big and physical George North, two excellent centres in Roberts and Davies, the option of playing James Hook at 10, 12 or 13 and the centurion and bogglingly reliable Lions starter Stephen Jones at outhalf, as well as the choice of Peel and Phillips at scrum-half. Lee Byrne is blowing more cold than hot at the moment at fullback, but that's really the only area of anything approaching weakness.

So why aren't they performing better? All down to a poor backrow?

Jandek
12th-June-2011, 19:36
How can you call Faletau, Jones, Warburton, Lydiate and Morgan a poor backrow?


I'd take that over In-ga-lund's any day of the week...

Cowboy
12th-June-2011, 19:48
How can you call Faletau, Jones, Warburton,
Lydiate and Morgan a poor backrow?


I'd take that over In-ga-lund's any day of the week...


I don't think it's poor. It's just inexperienced at the moment. I
wouldn't rate Ryan Jones but the rest of them are showing promise.

Hugonaut
13th-June-2011, 04:28
How can you call Faletau, Jones, Warburton, Lydiate and Morgan a poor backrow?


I'd take that over In-ga-lund's any day of the week...

You'll see that I was extolling the virtues of those lads in my post above, bar Ryan Jones [who is a long way past his best].

Morgan hasn't been capped yet, which I find a bit surprising. Faletau has just won his first 'cap' against a scratch Barbarians team. Lydiate, while a guy with potential, is not performing at the same level as Sean O'Brien or even Tom Wood, who are both the same age as him. Warburton is a useful operator and has an old head on young shoulders.

My point is that you have got guys who were Lions test starters two years ago in frontrowers Gethin Jenkins [1st &amp; 2nd test], Matthew Rees [2nd &amp; 3rd test], Adam Jones [2nd test], second row Alun Wyn Jones [1st test], halfbacks Mike Phillips [1st, 2nd &amp; 3rd test] and Stephen Jones [1st, 2nd &amp; 3rd test], centre Jamie Roberts [1st &amp; 2nd test], winger Shane Williams [3rd test] and fullback Leigh Byrne [1st test] the only area they're lacking that level of talent and experience, combined with some sort of form, is the backrow.

Monster Fan
15th-June-2011, 18:47
How many current welsh forwards
would make the Enhlish French or
Irish packs? Their back row is filled with either average or
inexperienced players. The crux of the issue with Wales for
me is
Gatlands clearly limited gameplan. He has sucked every
trace of free
flowing expressive rugby out of them. Decided to make
them a team
hard to beat rather than a team looking to win. Classic
wasps
formula, but Wales don't have the power or quality to force
an arm
wrestle with better teams. They've nothing to compare to
SOB Wally
Ferris or Paulie. If you can survive or outwit their rush
defense they
run out of ideas. Class galore behind the pack. Too
lightweight up
front.
They have two props who would walk into the irish team.
AWJones would push o'callaghan (in another year Lyddiate
might too). S.Jones would have walked into the irish team
until sexton took rog's irish jersey.
their scrum half is better than any we have.
I agree that gatland is a big problem but they lack
international class in hooker, back row and centre is the
problem.

Thomond78
15th-June-2011, 19:27
Hook a genius.

Iesu Grist Mawr. smileys/lol.gif

The only person who thinks that is .Ndy .Owell at the Western Fail.
Fair play, Outlaw, when you're in that company, you've excelled
yourself.

Ikkul is a superb winger, but Wales play a variation of McGahanball
best summed up as: blind, blind, blind, blind, op-ha! Fooled you!
Blind, blind, give it to Shhhhhaaaaaaannnne!

Hook's not a ten. He's a military medium 12, and a mediocre fullback.
Roberts is fine with a thinking 13 like BOD; he doesn't have one.
Stoddart's defence makes ROG look like Scott Gibbs. Duw North has
pace, but that's it. Lee Byrne is apKearney, Pikey Mikey Jones the
TOL.

As for the claim they're brilliant because they beat us, we had them
neatly tucked up and done before a combination of Former Referee
Peter Allan, Jonathan Oh-Kraplan, the Optimism Gnome off Gwlad
disguised as a ballboy, Jonathon Sexton and Paddy "No-Pass" Wallace
played out of their socks to lose it. Look at their performance against
the Baabaas.

And if you think I'm harsh, you should see Gwlad. They're ready to
ring up that nice Mr. Jenkins, say the Gyppocaust is forgotten and
would he like to take the poodles for a walk in NZ this autumn...?

The Outlaw
15th-June-2011, 19:36
Hook a genius.

Iesu Grist Mawr. smileys/lol.gif

The only person who thinks that is .Ndy .Owell at the
Western Fail.
Fair play, Outlaw, when you're in that company, you've
excelled
yourself.

Ikkul is a superb winger, but Wales play a variation of
McGahanball
best summed up as: blind, blind, blind, blind, op-ha! Fooled
you!
Blind, blind, give it to Shhhhhaaaaaaannnne!

Hook's not a ten. He's a military medium 12, and a
mediocre fullback.
Roberts is fine with a thinking 13 like BOD; he doesn't have
one.
Stoddart's defence makes ROG look like Scott Gibbs. Duw
North has
pace, but that's it. Lee Byrne is apKearney, Pikey Mikey
Jones the
TOL.

As for the claim they're brilliant because they beat us, we
had them
neatly tucked up and done before a combination of Former
Referee
Peter Allan, Jonathan Oh-Kraplan, the Optimism Gnome off
Gwlad
disguised as a ballboy, Jonathon Sexton and Paddy "No-
Pass" Wallace
played out of their socks to lose it. Look at their
performance against
the Baabaas.

And if you think I'm harsh, you should see Gwlad. They're
ready to
ring up that nice Mr. Jenkins, say the Gyppocaust is
forgotten and
would he like to take the poodles for a walk in NZ this
autumn...?

The only people who excel themselves here Thomond are
those that cant recognise talent.

This is guy who can play 3 different positions at
international level to a very high standard.

Next you'll be telling us Mike Phillips is a crap scrumhalf
just because he happens to be a pr**k
smileys/lol.gif

AdolphusGrigson
15th-June-2011, 19:37
They're ready to ring up that nice Mr. Jenkins, say the Gyppocaust is forgotten and would he like to take the poodles for a walk in NZ this autumn...?


Theywill say ANYTHING except what is blindingly obvious - they dont have enough good enough players.

The Outlaw
15th-June-2011, 19:41
They're ready to ring up that
nice Mr. Jenkins, say the Gyppocaust is forgotten and would
he like to take the poodles for a walk in NZ this autumn...?


They*will say ANYTHING except what is blindingly obvious -
they dont have enough good enough players.

But they beat us

tickettout
15th-June-2011, 19:45
A combined team would be


Jenkins Flannery Jones


AWJ POC


SOB Wallace Heaslip


Phillips Sexton


Earls Roberts BOD Bowe


Byrne


Kearney is finished under the new rules as a top class player.

Thomond78
15th-June-2011, 19:49
Would I be saying Pikey's a crap scrum-half because he's a twat?

No.

I'd be saying it because, like TOL, he can't pass and has dreadful
decision making.

As for Hook world-class in three positions, not even .Ndy claims that.

There's a very good reason why he's known on Gwlad as "Brian" -
one that anyone who watched his performances at 10 for the Os,
Wales or the mid-week Lions would agree with.

But for God's sake, don't stop, Outlaw; comedy gold like you're
churning out here is too good to miss.

Thomond78
15th-June-2011, 19:51
A combined team would be


Jenkins Flannery Jones


* AWJ** POC


SOB Wallace Heaslip


** PhillipsSexton


Earls Roberts BOD Bowe


** Byrne


Kearney is finished under the new rules as a top class player.




I'd have Jones at 10, but I'd agree with the rest - with the caveat that
if Earls can go 15, he does, with Ikkul getting a run at 11.

Cowboy
15th-June-2011, 20:12
You'd have to wonder where the issues truly lie, they have a
decent team but they consistently fail to live up to their much
vaunted billing. The gameplan is muck, it was outdated 2 years ago
on the lions tour and it still is now. The dont have the pack that
Wasps team had, nor do they have the animal aggression that
team had either(few teams will ever have it). Its rope a dope for
80 mins battering the opposition with a suffocating defence and
the largest 15 Warren can muster together. I know they beat us
but that was the first big scalp in quite a while. I'm not sure what
year it was but they played Australia in an Autumn International
recently and Pocock pwned them for 40 mins on his own, he subsequently broke a finger and had to be hauled off but he
showed how to beat them. Just bully the life out of them at the
breakdown. Handy and all as he is, Mike Philips is the easiest to
contain 9 in the 6 nations. Hit him a few slaps, pull him into a few
rucks and mission accomplished, for a big man he's a doddle to get
riled up and lose his focus.

I think under a better coach they'd be closer to the reason the
last lions tour was so Walian heavy. And as for Shaun Edwards,
another yesterdays man. One trick pony. Theyre poorly trained to
work as units. Their back 3, Centres, and Halfbacks all try to
perform as indivuduals instead of a series of combos inside a group.
Looking at our back 3 and how they work in tandem its poles
apart. I wont go into the centres because I dont need to. There
will never be a harder working midfield than our 2 lads.

Its horses for courses, Wales looks to individuals to turn a game or
create a piece of magic, Ireland and Irish fans never really do that,
we look to the whole collective to turn something up. We dont
chant single players names, not our way.

I suppose at the end of the day it comes down to the sideline, he
who picks the team and he who moulds the ethos and gameplan.
On that there is no contest. We have a settled, coherent
management who know how we want to play. The media are kept
at arms length and apart from one or two blindspots we have a
good selection policy.

The Outlaw
15th-June-2011, 20:53
Would I be saying Pikey's a crap
scrum-half because he's a twat?

No.

I'd be saying it because, like TOL, he can't pass and has
dreadful
decision making.

As for Hook world-class in three positions, not even .Ndy
claims that.

There's a very good reason why he's known on Gwlad as
"Brian" -
one that anyone who watched his performances at 10 for
the Os,
Wales or the mid-week Lions would agree with.

But for God's sake, don't stop, Outlaw; comedy gold like
you're
churning out here is too good to miss.

I stand over it. If you think I'm going to forfeit my opinions
because of you smileys/lol.gif

World class in my view. Proven ability at 10,12 and 15 at
international level. thats why french teams will pay half a
mill for him.

Oh and again- they beat us.

Thomond78
16th-June-2011, 04:27
Except no French team has. Perpignan paid a fraction of that, as Midol
reported.

Oh, as for Pikey Mikey? Dumped by the Os, months ago. They
announced he was more than free to leave, ages before anyone took
him. Real evidence he's a great scrum-half, huh?

Still, what have facts got to do with it, eh? Good man, Outlaw, we all
need a good giggle these days. smileys/lol.gif

the plastic paddy
16th-June-2011, 06:10
The greatest problem the welsh have is a ridiculous level of public expectation. I agree with much of what has been said regarding individualism within the welsh teams. But part of this is down to the Philips, Hensons, Byrnes and to a certain extent Hooks of the team believing the hype, getting the popstar girlfriend, thinking yes I have arrived in the first class lounge andcompletely failing towork for it anymore. Four great players mentioned there but their best days are behind them and I don't think any of them are 30. Actually think a large part of the problem is a complete failure to adjust to professionalism; they like the pay and celeb status but aren't so fond of the work. Think Swansea 'kick war' team getting into the premiership might give the rugby players the kick up the arse they need to stop them resting on their laurels. For all that, however, the likes of Gethin Jenkins, Adam Jones andAWJ are proper players and deserve better from the prima donnasfor whom they supply some bloody good ball.

king
16th-June-2011, 07:57
On Hooke, he has the skillset to be world class but he has only ever
done it in flashes. With the right coach and consistant game plan he
could be world class.

Wales and ireland will never be too far apart for long, we have the
upper hand on things at the moment on paper but rugby was never
won on paper. The bookies would have it at a one score game if we
were playing them tomorrow.

The Outlaw
16th-June-2011, 08:11
Except no French team has.
Perpignan paid a fraction of that, as Midol
reported.

Oh, as for Pikey Mikey? Dumped by the Os, months ago.
They
announced he was more than free to leave, ages before
anyone took
him. Real evidence he's a great scrum-half, huh?

Still, what have facts got to do with it, eh? Good man,
Outlaw, we all
need a good giggle these days. smileys/lol.gif

I do too.

As I said they beat us.

Thomond78
16th-June-2011, 08:14
And England beat them.

And we thumped England.

So - applying that patented Outlaw Logic - we must just be
AMAZING.

Shpoof away, Outlaw, shpoof away shtrong. smileys/lol.gif

The Outlaw
16th-June-2011, 08:17
And England beat them.

And we thumped England.

So - applying that patented Outlaw Logic - we must just be
AMAZING.

Shpoof away, Outlaw, shpoof away shtrong. smileys/lol.gif

But its a good laugh reading people analysing a team so
disparagingly that has a better grand slam record then us.
They may all be pr**ks but as I said talent isnt democratic
and results dont lie.
And the bottom line is in a results driven business in the
last 7-8 years they have been more successful then us.
And no amount of spoofing from yourself is going to
change that.

Thomond78
16th-June-2011, 10:19
More successful?

Okay, 2-1 to them on GS. How many triple crowns over the last 7-8
years?

What's Wales' win-loss record in that time frame and what's ours?

What are the results of Welsh and Irish teams in the HEC?

What are the head-to-head results over that time-frame?

What is the average 6N finishing position in that time-frame?

Don't let the facts spoil your dreams, eh?

Cowboy
16th-June-2011, 10:48
Hopefully Hugo is knocking together a spreadsheet with the relevant
facts in a digestible format. If you were to ask a Welshman would he
like their achievements or ours over the last decade he'd probably
admit through gritted teeth they'd like ours. A slam. 4 heinieken
cups. A rake of triple crowns. 2 lions captains etc etc etc

Hugonaut
16th-June-2011, 10:50
And England beat them.



And we thumped England.



So - applying that patented Outlaw Logic - we must just be

AMAZING.



Shpoof away, Outlaw, shpoof away shtrong. smileys/lol.gif



But its a good laugh reading people analysing a team so

disparagingly that has a better grand slam record then us.

They may all be pr**ks but as I said talent isnt democratic

and results dont lie.

And the bottom line is in a results driven business in the

last 7-8 years they have been more successful then us.

And no amount of spoofing from yourself is going to

change that.

Depends on which way you look at the phrase 'results-driven business' during the decade spanning 2001-10, we beat Wales every time we played them, apart from the two years that they had beaten England in the first match out and went on to win the championship with a Grand Slam.

On a results basis, that puts us 8-2 up on them in the 00s [with our two losses coming in 05 &amp; 08]. Obviously, their 2 championships and 2 Grand Slams has them 'one up' on us, so to speak, but they have essentially put together 2 coherent seasons in a decade, whereas we have been far more consistent: on the 6 Nations all-time table we're in second place in terms of wins [43 as compared with France's 44] [source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_Nations_Championship , about half-way down].

Cowboy
16th-June-2011, 11:04
One distinct advantage they have over us is the annual match
scheduling. They play 'all the blues' either home or away. Meaning
they either travel to London or Paris once a year. Not both at home or
away. I think we'd have had more championships if we were
guaranteed at least one of the big two at home every year. Beat
Enhland in Dublin and make a cup final of a match in Paris and vice
versa

Hugonaut
16th-June-2011, 11:11
One distinct advantage they have over us is the annual match

scheduling. They play 'all the blues' either home or away. Meaning

they either travel to London or Paris once a year. Not both at home or

away. I think we'd have had more championships if we were

guaranteed at least one of the big two at home every year. Beat

Enhland in Dublin and make a cup final of a match in Paris and vice

versa

France away is always going to be a very tough game, but I would have thought that we're a good enough team to be confident of winning our home matches against any NH opposition.

With that said, this year's result against England has really clouded over just how absolutely abject our away form was.

The Outlaw
16th-June-2011, 11:16
[QUOTE=Thomond78] More successful?

Okay, 2-1 to them on GS. How many triple crowns over the
last 7-8
years?

What's Wales' win-loss record in that time frame and what's
ours?

What are the results of Welsh and Irish teams in the HEC?

What are the head-to-head results over that time-frame?

What is the average 6N finishing position in that time-frame?

Don't let the facts spoil your dreams, eh?[/QUOTE

hec is irrelevent. the only way you can grade countries is on
internatonal performance.because that is a level playing
field. the facts are its 2 slams to one and no amt of spoofing
is going to change that.

all clubs have significant overseas input to win the hec. so
thats an irrelevent argument. its amazing you dont apply the
same criteria to assessing irish players as you do to the
welsh but then again thats irish rugby all over. lreland ha
significantly underachieved at international rugby in the last
decade. but you give them a free pass smileys/lol.gif

The Outlaw
16th-June-2011, 11:21
[QUOTE=Thomond78] And England beat
them.

And we thumped England.

So - applying that patented Outlaw Logic - we must just be
AMAZING.

Shpoof away, Outlaw, shpoof away shtrong. smileys/lol.gif

But its a good laugh reading people analysing a team so
disparagingly that has a better grand slam record then us.
They may all be pr**ks but as I said talent isnt democratic
and results dont lie.
And the bottom line is in a results driven business in the
last 7-8 years they have been more successful then us.
And no amount of spoofing from yourself is going to
change that.Depends on which way you look at the
phrase 'results-driven business' during the decade
spanning 2001-10, we beat Wales every time we played
them, apart from the two years that they had beaten
England in the first match out and went on to win the
championship with a Grand Slam.On a results basis, that puts
us 8-2 up on them in the 00s [with our two losses coming in
05 & 08]. Obviously, their 2 championships and 2 Grand
Slams has them 'one up' on us, so to speak, but they have
essentially put together 2 coherent seasons in a decade,
whereas we have been far more consistent: on the 6 Nations
all-time table we're in second place in terms of wins [43 as
compared with France's 44] [source: http://en.wikipedia.org/
wiki/Six_Nations_Championship , about half-way down]. [/
QUOTE]
well for me its all about trophies. and one slam in the last
decade with the quality available has been very poor
considering we are unlikely to see players of this type
again.nobody remembers second place in professional sport.

dropkick
16th-June-2011, 11:50
well for me its all about trophies. and one slam in the last
decade with the quality available has been very poor
considering we are unlikely to see players of this type
again.nobody remembers second place in professional sport.


Its poor alright but I think in future the Irish team will be
getting better than they are now.