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AdolphusGrigson
5th-June-2011, 10:06
Paddy Power has England at 20/1 and Ireland at 10/1 to win the world cup.


Ireland have beaten England almost every time since (lost twice only?)
since England won the world cup in 2003.


We only need to beat pool rivalsAustraliawho are 4/1 (and have less ofa scrum than us and who we have beaten and drawn with in recent years) and a couple of 6N teams to get to the final.


Do the players actually believe they can at least get to the final or do they subsribe to what many/most supporters seem to believe, in spite of recent succeses in Heineken Cups and 6N that we are not good enough to compete with the biggest boys on the biggest stage?


Anything short of a final apperance should arguably be viewed as an under acheivment?

Balla Boy
5th-June-2011, 10:14
Can't agree. England have been to the last two finals, and went to the
final on the back of a poor 6 nations last time out.

We, on the other hand, have never beaten the AB's and never win in
the Southern Hemisphere. We rarely win in Paris.

Beating Oz in our group game would be a leap forward from anything
that Ireland have done on an international level - Grand Slam
included.

Talk of making a final is hugely optimistic. The notion that not doing
so would be a failure is just a denial of reality.

We should be a QF side, and if we really pulled it out a semi.
Obviously, at that stage it's eighty minutes and anything can happen.

But I'd be amazed if we allow ourselves to go down the road of
hyping our prospects to this extent after last time out - when we
were in just as strong a position on paper.

thisyear?
5th-June-2011, 10:33
If and it is a big if, the players are encouraged to go out and express themselves, playing a heads up style of game (Munster v Brive and Leinster for most of the season) then we have a great chance...

AdolphusGrigson
5th-June-2011, 10:47
"But I'd be amazed if we allow ourselves to go down the road of
hyping our prospects to this extent after last time out - when we
were in just as strong a position on paper."


Irish teams have won the HC3 times since then and beaten a full SA team and the Grand Slam. Wehave the best backline and the best backrow in Europe and I'm notsure the we-are-s**te-dont-worry-about us lineis appropriate.


Munster andLeinster didnt pretend they were not contenders - there should be no overhype just a realistic target given our current players - our previous achivements or rather lack of them is irrelevant.


We are good enough to get to the final and we should say so.

tickettout
5th-June-2011, 10:49
Can't agree. England have been to the last two finals, and went to the
final on the back of a poor 6 nations last time out.

We, on the other hand, have never beaten the AB's and never win in
the Southern Hemisphere. We rarely win in Paris.

Beating Oz in our group game would be a leap forward from anything
that Ireland have done on an international level - Grand Slam
included.

Talk of making a final is hugely optimistic. The notion that not doing
so would be a failure is just a denial of reality.

We should be a QF side, and if we really pulled it out a semi.
Obviously, at that stage it's eighty minutes and anything can happen.

But I'd be amazed if we allow ourselves to go down the road of
hyping our prospects to this extent after last time out - when we
were in just as strong a position on paper.


England have quite a nice draw aswell - should top the group and therefore willface a second place team in the 1/4s.


Every chance they will make the semis again.

Loop
5th-June-2011, 11:02
Beating Aus will be a very big ask. Expect them to at least
survive up front (one way or the other) ... and after that
there's that backline to contend with.

Assuming we did beat Aus and assuming we won the Q/F
then, if I read it right, we'd be looking at France in the
semi. Again, a big ask given that they're something of
bogey team for us and given that they have a history of
performing well in New Zealand.

A lot depends on whether we show the form we did for
most of the 6N's or whether we show the form that we did
against England or the form that Leinster & Munster have
sometimes shown in the last month. Also, it would be great
to have Fla & Ferris available.

One thing I will say is that I expect us to play a lot nearer
to our abilities then we did in 2007. That was feckin
dispiriting, an otherwise great holiday ruined by the actual
rugby smileys/sad.gif

As a final thought, DK already has experience of winning a
world cup ... so you never knowsmileys/wink.gif

Loop
5th-June-2011, 11:05
Can't agree.
England have been to the last two finals, and went to the
final on the back of a poor 6 nations last time out. We, on
the other hand, have never beaten the AB's and never win
in the Southern Hemisphere. We rarely win in Paris.
Beating Oz in our group game would be a leap forward
from anything that Ireland have done on an international
level - Grand Slam included. Talk of making a final is
hugely optimistic. The notion that not doing so would be a
failure is just a denial of reality. We should be a QF side,
and if we really pulled it out a semi. Obviously, at that
stage it's eighty minutes and anything can happen. But I'd
be amazed if we allow ourselves to go down the road of
hyping our prospects to this extent after last time out -
when we were in just as strong a position on paper.



England have quite a nice draw aswell - should top the
group and therefore will*face a second place team in the
1/4s.


Every chance they will make the semis again.


*

... but if I read it right, isn't that second placed team likely
to be France? I'd take France to win that with a bit to
spare.

The Outlaw
5th-June-2011, 11:08
I'm sure the players believe- they are professionals. We've
all played on teams who thought we could win things but
more often then not we didnt. But in a team scenario you
can always believe you can capable of achieving
something.

We are removed from the camp and can look at things
dispassionately

However in terms of raw talent we're no higher then 4th
playing at the absolute apex of our ability.

And more likely 5th.

We arent capable of beating the All-Blacks and South Africa
in a World Cup Scenario. We're just not at that level.

I would have the australian game at 60/40 in their favour. I
think we'll lose narrowly but we are capable of potentially
causing an upset.

I think we could beat England. I'd expect us to beat
England and be disappointed if we didnt.

I would be more sceptical on our ability to beat France on
the basis they have actually beaten the big guns in the WC
previously.

I would be more worried about Wales then England. Simply
because we always seem to have trouble beating the
buggers. However again it would be a disappointment not
to beat them.

I think a last 4 place is optimistic. International rugby is a
15-20% higher standard between the top 5/6 countries
then HEC rugby in my view. Everyone on a top 5/6 ranked
international team is a very good player. You dont always
get that at HEC level except among the top 2-3 teams max.

Balla Boy
5th-June-2011, 11:12
"But I'd be amazed if we allow
ourselves to go down the road of hyping our prospects to this extent
after last time out - when we were in just as strong a position on
paper."


Irish teams have won the HC*3 times since then and beaten a full
SA team and the Grand Slam. We*have the best backline and the best
backrow in Europe and I'm not*sure the we-are-s**te-dont-worry-
about us line*is appropriate.


Munster and*Leinster didnt pretend they were not contenders -
there should be no overhype just a realistic target given our current
players - our previous achivements or rather lack of them is irrelevant.



We are good enough to get to the final and we should say so.


*


That's simply not true. We were strong in the HEC before, but the
reality is that it's not a predictor of success against the SH.

In citing 6N and HEC's, you're proposing that European rugby is the
benchmark here. It's not.

Again, we have not been successful against SH teams down there,
and are patchy against them at home. If we entered the Tri Nations
next year I'd say you'd get good odds on us coming bottom.

Again, beating Australia in the Southern Hemisphere in a big test
match is a step above anything we have ever achieved down there.

It would be a real achievement to win our group, and talk that we
shouldn't be falling short of a final would diminish that.

How can a team that has never beaten the AB's - ever - and never
won a test series in the SH talk seriously about being in the top two
teams in a tournament in NZ?

Balla Boy
5th-June-2011, 11:14
BTW - the HEC winning teams you cite have been significantly boosted
by NIC talent. Halstead, Tipoki, Elsom, Hines, Nacewa, Strauss,
Wright, Howlett et al aren't coming to NZ in green shirts.

sewa
5th-June-2011, 11:17
We haven't a hope of doing well. We dont tour well and have won only one GS in the last60 odd years. Squad is paper thin to be honest

The Outlaw
5th-June-2011, 11:18
"But
I'd be amazed if we allow
ourselves to go down the road of hyping our prospects to
this extent
after last time out - when we were in just as strong a
position on
paper."


Irish teams have won the HC*3 times since then and
beaten a full
SA team and the Grand Slam. We*have the best backline
and the best
backrow in Europe and I'm not*sure the we-are-s**te-dont-
worry-
about us line*is appropriate.


Munster and*Leinster didnt pretend they were not
contenders -
there should be no overhype just a realistic target given
our current
players - our previous achivements or rather lack of them
is irrelevant.



We are good enough to get to the final and we should
say so.


*


That's simply not true. We were strong in the HEC before,
but the
reality is that it's not a predictor of success against the SH.

In citing 6N and HEC's, you're proposing that European
rugby is the
benchmark here. It's not.

Again, we have not been successful against SH teams down
there,
and are patchy against them at home. If we entered the Tri
Nations
next year I'd say you'd get good odds on us coming
bottom.

Again, beating Australia in the Southern Hemisphere in a
big test
match is a step above anything we have ever achieved
down there.

It would be a real achievement to win our group, and talk
that we
shouldn't be falling short of a final would diminish that.

How can a team that has never beaten the AB's - ever -
and never
won a test series in the SH talk seriously about being in the
top two
teams in a tournament in NZ?





Because people dont understand that international rugby is
a higher standard then HEC.

To win the HEC both Leinster and Munster had significant
help from overseas NIQ players.

The penny will drop some day hopefully.

tickettout
5th-June-2011, 11:27
We haven't a hope of doing well. We dont tour well and have won only one GS in the last60 odd years. Squad is paper thin to be honest


We've some avergae players in our first 15.


Best is a nothing player - an average journeyman who was never up to much.


Paddy Wallace could well be the impact sub in the 22 again- another nothing player.


DOC or TOL who will both probably start wouldn't make any other top 8 side. Healy and Rosswill only be doing well to scrape by at this level and Darcy has been awful for years now.


My hope lies in the fact that Australia are not thatmuch better than us.

Dummy Dummy Pop
5th-June-2011, 11:45
Paddy Power has England at
20/1 and Ireland at 10/1 to win the world cup.


Ireland have beaten England almost every time since
(lost twice only?) since England won the world cup in
2003.


We only need to beat pool rivals*Australia*who are 4/1
(and have less of*a scrum than us and who we have beaten
and drawn with in recent years) and a couple of 6N teams
to get to the final.


Do the players actually believe they can at least get to
the final or do they subsribe to what many/most supporters
seem to believe, in spite of recent succeses in Heineken
Cups and 6N that we are not good enough to compete with
the biggest boys on the biggest stage?


Anything short of a final apperance should arguably be
viewed as an under acheivment?


*

Other way round - England 10/1 ireland 20/1

rathbaner
5th-June-2011, 11:59
I think they'll surprise us.

If DK can get the pressure off them and they focus on the Next Game only and Gert & Co get the forwards going then it should be great fun to watch.

AdolphusGrigson
5th-June-2011, 12:01
Outlaw,


re "We arent capable of beating the All-Blacks and South Africa
in a World Cup Scenario. We're just not at that level."


FYI


If we win our pool and they (ABs SA) win theirsthen we would not meet either until thefinal.


Regarding theHC arguement.


Irish teams generally have fewer overseas players and the top 2from 4nominated players for player of the yearwere Irish the other 2 were from overseas.


Both France and England are arguably at historic lows in terms of actual talentandwhat happened in previousWorld Cups is irrelevant and as for Grand Slams - when Wales are struggling to beat Samoa and Fijithey will hardly be calling Gareth Edwards et al down from theircommentary positions.

AdolphusGrigson
5th-June-2011, 12:02
Other way round - England 10/1 ireland 20/1


oops

Mule
5th-June-2011, 13:15
I'm cautiously optimistic of making the semis at least. Out
of all the NH teams, I would think Ireland would have the
best chance. England at 10/1 is frankly ludicrous. They
have no credibility in my eyes after the demolition in Dublin
and the loss to the Barbarians. Over-hyped is putting it
mildly. They do have the easiest pool in RWc history
though, so who knows what could happen. Scotland are
Scotland, be lucky to finish third in their pool, Georgia are
gunning for them and Romania have the beating of them
too. Wales are shocking and will struggle to get out of their
pool. France will have a tough time of it and could s**t the
course partout. Italy will be good but in fairness, if Ireland
don't beat them in NZ, then maybe it's time to go back to
supporting two flies climbing up a wall.

In short, IMHO, Ireland could well top their pool and if so, I
would expect them to get to the final, having Wales or Fiji
in the Quarter. Therefore, out of all the NH teams, Ireland
have the best chance.

the plastic paddy
5th-June-2011, 13:36
Think that SA VWales game could be one that both try to lose. Win and you have ABs before final lose and you can't meet them until the final. Whan we drew with Aus over here two years ago Ireland were s**te and still disappointed not to win. Full strength team from Aus as well. We have the measure of SA I don't care what anyone says because we are fitter than them and the Lions showed us that. ABs different but in a final against them there will be no need for any DKspin, Ireland will have nothing to lose and they will have nearly everything to lose. I BELIEVE Ireland can win the RWC with a fair wind and the luck that any team needs. I alsoBELIEVE that the Irish playersBELIEVE they are capable of winning. GWAN IRELAND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!! !!

AdolphusGrigson
5th-June-2011, 13:49
Plastic Paddy


Lack of belief has cost us in the past especially against France where we just seem to share the Goerge-Hook-World-View that the French do Rugby better than us.


Aussies have better backs than us but we have a better pack and it may well come down tosmall margins and they certainly wont be lacking in belief.

outside inside
5th-June-2011, 15:22
Don't believe that it is a lack of belief rather playing at a lower level .The step up when we play the3N's shows, we makeerrors under pressure force things etc .If we where in 3N's every year our standard would improve . Expect a good WC from IRE DK has been planning this for the last 2 years at the very least he will get a performance out of the squad .

The Outlaw
5th-June-2011, 15:33
Outlaw,


re "We arent capable of beating the All-Blacks and
South Africa in a World Cup Scenario. We're just not at that
level."


FYI


If we win our pool and they (ABs SA) win theirs*then we
would not meet either until the*final.


Regarding the*HC arguement.


Irish teams generally have fewer overseas players and
the top 2*from 4*nominated* players for player of the
year*were Irish the other 2 were from overseas.


Both France and England are arguably at historic lows in
terms of actual talent*and*what happened in previous*World
Cups is irrelevant and as for Grand Slams - when Wales
are struggling to beat Samoa and Fiji*they will hardly be
calling Gareth Edwards et al down from their*commentary
positions.


*


*

Nacewa, Strauss, Hines, Wright, Van de Merve, Elsom

Howlett, Mafi, Tipoki, Warwick, De Preez

Thats a hefty contingent for both sides.

And Wales would have no fear of us. You're also assuming
we will win the SH against a top side like Oz. Which we've
never done before. Hopefully we will but its 50/50 at best.

We also have a bruising game against Italy to contend
with.

Wont be easy. But we can say that we are highly unlikely
to beat the springboks in a quarter final. So we have to
beat Australia to have any chance of the last 4.

tickettout
5th-June-2011, 15:50
Outlaw,



re "We arent capable of beating the All-Blacks and
South Africa in a World Cup Scenario. We're just not at that
level."



FYI



If we win our pool and they (ABs SA) win theirsthen we
would not meet either until thefinal.



Regarding theHC arguement.



Irish teams generally have fewer overseas players and
the top 2from 4nominated players for player of the
yearwere Irish the other 2 were from overseas.



Both France and England are arguably at historic lows in
terms of actual talentandwhat happened in previousWorld
Cups is irrelevant and as for Grand Slams - when Wales
are struggling to beat Samoa and Fijithey will hardly be
calling Gareth Edwards et al down from theircommentary
positions.












Nacewa, Strauss, Hines, Wright, Van de Merve, Elsom

Howlett, Mafi, Tipoki, Warwick, De Preez

Thats a hefty contingent for both sides.

And Wales would have no fear of us. You're also assuming
we will win the SH against a top side like Oz. Which we've
never done before. Hopefully we will but its 50/50 at best.

We also have a bruising game against Italy to contend
with.

Wont be easy. But we can say that we are highly unlikely
to beat the springboks in a quarter final. So we have to
beat Australia to have any chance of the last 4.


Du Preez and Warwick didnt start on any HEC winningteams

AdolphusGrigson
5th-June-2011, 16:52
Outlaw


"And Wales would have no fear of us. You're also assuming
we will win the SH against a top side like Oz. Which we've
never done before. Hopefully we will but its 50/50 at best. "


Wales will have fear of Fiji and Samoa never mind us.


50/50 is about right and that iswhy we need belief - without that our heads will dropwhen anything goes wrong and the Aussies will sniff that.


If we beat the Aussies then, assuming other games go to form, we should beable to beat any other 6N team- as we have arguably better players- and reach the final.


Sowe should be aiming for the final, its realistic and anything short of that should be a disappointment.


It is unlikley in the future that England, France and Australia will be as bad as they are now and that we will get such a favourable draw and most importantly wemay not have as many excellent players to choose from.

The Outlaw
5th-June-2011, 17:44
Outlaw


"And Wales would have no fear of us. You're also
assuming we will win the SH against a top side like Oz.
Which we've never done before. Hopefully we will but its
50/50 at best. "


Wales will have fear of Fiji and Samoa never mind us.



50/50 is about right and that is*why we need belief -
without that our heads will drop*when anything goes wrong
and the Aussies will sniff that.


If we beat the Aussies then, assuming other games go
to form, we should be*able to beat any other 6N team- as
we have arguably better players*- and reach the final.


So*we should be aiming for the final, its realistic and
anything short of that should be a disappointment.*


It is unlikley in the future that England, France and
Australia will be as bad as they are now and that we will
get such a favourable draw and most importantly we*may
not have as many excellent players to choose from.*


*


*

While having many excellent players we are still selecting
some incredibly average ones which gives the likes of
Wales just as much chance of turning us over as we have
of Australia.



I think its in the lap of the Gods personally.

tickettout
5th-June-2011, 17:51
http://www.munsterfans.com//uploads/images/tickettout/189_bestimages.jpg


Did someone mention Average players?


I'd have him behing Flannery,Cronin and Sherry.


Varley is a similar player to him but is a much better ball carrier.

Balla Boy
5th-June-2011, 17:53
Agreed, Outlaw. It's all well and good saying we'll go to the final and
the Scots will crash, but there's a handful of points between the two
year in year out. We were a point better than Italy in Rome.

Should we beat Australia (and that would be the biggest result in Irish
rugby history) then we have about the same chance of making a final
as we've had of doing a grand slam for each of the last 5 or 6 years.

Cowboy
5th-June-2011, 18:07
Agreed, Outlaw. It's all well and good saying we'll go to the
final and
the Scots will crash, but there's a handful of points between
the two
year in year out. We were a point better than Italy in
Rome.

Should we beat Australia (and that would be the biggest
result in Irish
rugby history) then we have about the same chance of
making a final
as we've had of doing a grand slam for each of the last 5
or 6 years.



I'd agree with that. Lot of people are overlooking the Italy
game, the Italians are lining up our game with them much
the same as we are lining up the wallabies game. Its their
big chance to claim a scalp. We have to get out of the
group first then re-assess our goals IMO. When we get into
a knock out its all on the day.

AdolphusGrigson
5th-June-2011, 18:28
"I'd agree with that. Lot of people are overlooking the Italy
game, the Italians are lining up our game with them much
the same as weare lining up the wallabies game. Its their
big chance to claim a scalp."


Not overlooking anything, if you have a very good team then you should expect very good results. Italy are a good team but if we lost to them then Kidney would hardly surviveas long as the trip home.


Our expectations should be in line with our ability.

Balla Boy
5th-June-2011, 18:37
"I'd agree with that. Lot of people are
overlooking the Italy game, the Italians are lining up our game with
them much the same as we*are lining up the wallabies game. Its their
big chance to claim a scalp."


Not overlooking anything, if you have a very good team then you
should expect very good results. Italy are a good team but if we lost
to them then Kidney would hardly survive*as long as the trip home.



Our expectations should be in line with our ability.

Mine are. But you're taking a wholly imaginary view of our ability. The
reality is that at our last meeting with Italy we had to be hauled over
the line by a drop goal.

Look at our record in the Southern Hemisphere. All you're doing is
asserting that we're at a certain level, with nothing but a foreigner-
bolstered HEC record to back it up.

We're going south having failed to win arguably the weakest 6 nations
tournament in the last five years or more.

Cowboy
5th-June-2011, 18:37
"I'd agree with that. Lot of
people are overlooking the Italy game, the Italians are
lining up our game with them much the same as we*are
lining up the wallabies game. Its their big chance to claim a
scalp."


Not overlooking anything, if you have a very good team
then you should expect very good results. Italy are a good
team but if we lost to them then Kidney would hardly
survive*as long as the trip home.


Our expectations should be in line with our ability.


We tried that before and it landed us on our arse AG. I
personally think the team will be lining up to get to a semi
and hopefully farther, but the public line will be 'isn't it
great to be here, little old ireland.... all the folks back
home' etc. For me, we need to concentrate on getting out
of the pool and then see how we've fared. Australia and
Italy will be tough tough games, but they're key to getting
a favourable run in the knock outs. I dont know who'll be
reffing the Italy game but if we get a troublesome referee
he could make things very tough in the scrum for us.

Cowboy
5th-June-2011, 18:40
"I'd
agree with that. Lot of people are
overlooking the Italy game, the Italians are lining up our
game with
them much the same as we*are lining up the wallabies
game. Its their
big chance to claim a scalp."


Not overlooking anything, if you have a very good team
then you
should expect very good results. Italy are a good team but
if we lost
to them then Kidney would hardly survive*as long as the
trip home.



Our expectations should be in line with our ability.


Mine are. But you're taking a wholly imaginary view of our
ability. The
reality is that at our last meeting with Italy we had to be
hauled over
the line by a drop goal.

Look at our record in the Southern Hemisphere. All you're
doing is
asserting that we're at a certain level, with nothing but a
foreigner-
bolstered HEC record to back it up.

We're going south having failed to win arguably the
weakest 6 nations
tournament in the last five years or more.



Bingo bango. I think finishing top of our pool would be a big
step forward and we'll see how far we manage in cup rugby
after that. To beat the wallabies down there would be as
big or bigger than a win in paris. A once in 25 years type
result.

manofmunster
5th-June-2011, 18:53
Do the Irish players believe? I should hope so! Guys like O Connell and O Driscoll are used to coming up against the best at club level and winning. However it's a slightly different story with Ireland ... aside from the England game, we haven't really impressed in green since the 2009 GS.


The warm-up games will bekey - they set the tone for the whole expedition .... we can all remember that sinking feeling setting in as we labored against Scotland in the warm-ups four years ago.


With due respect to Italy, the key game of the group stages (and, to a large extent,our entire RWC)is, in my opinion, the Australia game. We need to target that match as the keystone of our campaign. Winning it will do two things to our prospects


1. Grants us a much easier passage through the knock-out stages


2. Gives us confidence and real belief in our abilites to compete with the best on the biggest stage


Should we lose to Australia I suspect our campaign will end in disappointment.


I'm cautiously optomistic that we can deliver a successful campaign. We need to perform against Australia (and Italy, to a lesser extent). If we do that we can create a bit of momentum andI think we have enough quality and experience toachieve a Semi-final spot.

AdolphusGrigson
5th-June-2011, 18:57
Cowboy,


'We tried that before and it landed us on our arse AG'


The key is that the players believe, if they jibber-jabber about one game at a time it doesnt matter, more often than not be beat ourselves especially if it against a higher ranked team - especially France.





Ball B,


"Mine are. But you're taking a wholly imaginary view of our ability."


So that would be me and and the IRB - together we contrived to place Ireland as 4th best team in the world -including best in Europe.

Benny
5th-June-2011, 19:00
It will be difficult to beat Australia but then again we almost beat them in Australia in the World Cup in 2003 and we should have beaten them. Of course could have and should have are a far cry from actually doing it.


This is the time for doing it. We don't want another 1 point or last minute defeat against Australia in the World Cup.


There's no point in going into a World Cup not believing you can win it.


Ireland are sufficiently talented that knowing we can beat all other 6N and non 3N teams should be a given. We should also believe that on our day we can beat Australia and have a good chance of turning over SA. The damned All Blacks is where our major problems lie as I'm not sure we really believe we can beat them although we'd like to believe it.

pancake
5th-June-2011, 19:01
I'm sure the players believe- they are professionals. We've

all played on teams who thought we could win things but

more often then not we didnt. But in a team scenario you

can always believe you can capable of achieving

something.



We are removed from the camp and can look at things

dispassionately



However in terms of raw talent we're no higher then 4th

playing at the absolute apex of our ability.



And more likely 5th.



We arent capable of beating the All-Blacks and South Africa

in a World Cup Scenario. We're just not at that level.



I would have the australian game at 60/40 in their favour. I

think we'll lose narrowly but we are capable of potentially

causing an upset.



I think we could beat England. I'd expect us to beat
</span><br style="font-weight: bold;">England and be disappointed if we didnt.
</span>


I would be more sceptical on our ability to beat France on

the basis they have actually beaten the big guns in the WC

previously.



I would be more worried about Wales then England. Simply

because we always seem to have trouble beating the

buggers. However again it would be a disappointment not

to beat them.



I think a last 4 place is optimistic. International rugby is a

15-20% higher standard between the top 5/6 countries

then HEC rugby in my view. Everyone on a top 5/6 ranked

international team is a very good player. You dont always

get that at HEC level except among the top 2-3 teams max.

Sure in the run up to the game in the Aviva you were telling all and sundry of the tonking you expected England to deliver to us. You are some chancer Outlaw.

The fact is that we have a decent team with a few class players. We are more than capable of beating any team except the All Blacks judging by respective abilities. We nearly did for Oz the last time we met them in a WC game; but this time they wont have the advantage of playing in front of a home crowd.

AdolphusGrigson
5th-June-2011, 19:04
manofmunster,


"I'm cautiously optomistic that we can deliver a successful campaign. We need to perform against Australia (and Italy, to a lesser extent). If we do that we can create a bit of momentum andI think we have enough quality and experience toachieve a Semi-final spot."


As mentioned above the IRB rank usas the best team in europe - if we get tothe semis (assuming SA and ABs win their games) we will have Euro opposition -theplayers should believethey will.

JoeyFantastic
5th-June-2011, 19:06
So that would be me and and the IRB - together we
contrived to place Ireland as 4th best team in the world -
*including best in Europe.*


*

The IRB are fairly meaningless though, we might be only
three spots behind New Zealand but we've never beaten
them.

I think we can beat Australia though, if all our best players
play to the limit of their ability and Australia don't play to
the limit of theirs.

Balla Boy
5th-June-2011, 19:14
manofmunster,


"I'm cautiously optomistic that we can deliver a successful
campaign. We need to perform against Australia (and Italy, to a
lesser extent). If we do that we can create a bit of momentum and*I
think we have enough quality and experience to*achieve a Semi-final
spot."


As mentioned above the IRB rank us*as the best team in europe -
if we get to*the semis (assuming SA and ABs win their games) we will
have Euro opposition -*the*players should believe*they will.


*

Do you feel that the IRB rankings are a better indicator than the six
nations, where all of the teams actually play each other?

At the absolute top of our game we can win our group. After that, we
take our chances.

But your initial assertion - that anything short of the final would be a
failure - is insupportable.

Topping our group, edging a quarter and losing a semi would be a
huge success for us.

Hugonaut
5th-June-2011, 19:15
manofmunster,


"I'm cautiously optomistic that we can deliver a successful campaign. We need to perform against Australia (and Italy, to a lesser extent). If we do that we can create a bit of momentum andI think we have enough quality and experience toachieve a Semi-final spot."


As mentioned above the IRB rank usas the best team in europe - if we get tothe semis (assuming SA and ABs win their games) we will have Euro opposition -theplayers should believethey will.




Eh, there's a tournament every year to find out who the best team in Europe is. We didn't win it this year.

AdolphusGrigson
5th-June-2011, 19:24
balla,


"But your initial assertion - that anything short of the final would be a
failure - is insupportable"


...talking of 'insupportable' can you point outwhere I suggested not getting to the final 'would be a failure'.


My mature recollection is that I suggested it would be a 'disappointment'.I'm sticking with that.

Balla Boy
5th-June-2011, 19:32
"Anything short of a final apperance should arguably be viewed as an
under acheivment?"

We'll have to split the difference between failure, under-achievement
and disappointment.

The implication is clear whatever way we define it - that Ireland would
have no grounds to be happy coming home as losing Semi Finalists. I
think that would be a huge result for us.

The Outlaw
5th-June-2011, 19:34
manofmunster,


"I'm cautiously optomistic that we can deliver a
successful campaign. We need to perform against Australia
(and Italy, to a lesser extent). If we do that we can create
a bit of momentum and*I think we have enough quality and
experience to*achieve a Semi-final spot."


As mentioned above the IRB rank us*as the best team in
europe - if we get to*the semis (assuming SA and ABs win
their games) we will have Euro opposition -*the*players
should believe*they will.


*

we're not the best team in europe. wales and france beat
us.

AdolphusGrigson
5th-June-2011, 19:41
balla,


"that Ireland would have no grounds to be happy coming home as losing Semi Finalists. I think that would be a huge result for us. "


Eh no, we would have grounds to be happy, we would probably have beaten Australiaand got further than previouslyin a word cup- its just that we should believe we arebetter than falling over at at the last fencebut one - when we arguably have the players to get to the final.

Balla Boy
5th-June-2011, 19:50
balla,


"that Ireland would have no grounds to be happy coming home as
losing Semi Finalists. I think that would be a huge result for us. "


Eh no, we would have grounds to be happy, we would probably
have beaten Australia*and got further than previously*in a word cup*-
its just that we should believe we are*better than falling over at at the
last fence*but one - when we arguably have the players to get to the
final.


*

Without being picky, that's a very different position to your start
point.

"We'd be really happy to beat Australia and, if we did, it's not beyond
the bounds that our draw could take us to the final" is a long way
from "anything short of a final would be an underachievement".

Given our draw, if we beat the Aussies then we do have the players to
make a final.

But tournaments aren't played on paper, and we've never at any point
shown that we have the capacity to win successive crunch games at
this level.

Producing is far more important than notional levels of talent, and
when we go to the SH we don't produce.

AdolphusGrigson
5th-June-2011, 19:58
balla,


Well enough pinhead dancing.


"and when we go to the SH we don't produce. "

Arguably that is at least partially down to lack of belief.

Balla Boy
5th-June-2011, 20:06
balla,


Well enough pinhead dancing.


"and when we go to the SH we don't produce. "&lt;!-- Signature --
&gt;Arguably that is at least partially down to lack of belief.*


Arguably. More to do with error rate, a lack of lay off play in the pack
and a lack of creativity in the back line I'd say.

For a team that we're arguing could make the final, there's only really
Flannery, POC, Wallace, Heaslip, O'Brien, Ferris, Sexton, Rog, BOD,
Bowe and Earls that could be confident of a squad place for any other
team in the top 4.

That's eleven - some of whom will be lucky to make the flight - out of
a match day 22. With a squad beyond that.

Belief comes from performances. England went from always beating
tourists to winning on tour to winning the world cup. We've still not
cracked stage one of that.

AdolphusGrigson
5th-June-2011, 20:24
Balla,


"Belief comes from performances. England went from always beating
tourists to winning on tour to winning the world cup. We've still not
cracked stage one of that. "


We are not talking about winning the WCbut about getting to the final andEngland got to the final in 2007 without a stage 1. Remember?

The Outlaw
5th-June-2011, 20:44
Balla,


"Belief comes from performances. England went from
always beating tourists to winning on tour to winning the
world
cup. We've still not cracked stage one of that. "


We are not talking about winning the WC*but about
getting
to the final and*England got to the final in 2007 without a
stage
1. Remember?*

I'd say 2003 was a pretty good stage 1- wouldnt you?

When we start beating SH opposition down there I'll start
believing.

Even England went down there last year and won. Its more
then an attitude. its an error count under pressure. We
make too many mistakes under pressure to beat these
teams regularly and invariably its handling errors

Dowlinz
5th-June-2011, 23:08
I think they do, quite a lot of these players have won 2 HEC cups, a grand slam and a magners as well as featuring for the Lions. They're far more comfortable with winning things than any other team in the past and mentality is a huge factor.

That said there are 3 sides unquestionably better than us and we have to beat one of them to make the semi's so with or without belief we'll need to cause an upset to do it.

Winning 3 of our 4 warmups, hammering Russia and USA, a dominant win over Italy and brave defeats to Aus and SA would represent a good tournament. I hope Aus or SA aren't as good as I credit them for and we have a chance for more, if the chance is there I think we have the confidence this time around to take it.

rathbaner
5th-June-2011, 23:10
I think they'll surprise us.


smileys/cool.gif

Mebawsa Ritchie
6th-June-2011, 04:19
I'm pretty certain that Ireland have yet to produce their best form at any RWC.

outside inside
6th-June-2011, 06:06
As has been said mistakes playing under pressure against 3N 's is what turns could winsinto narrow defeats . France anyone ? Until this is gone from Ire's play we wil not win these big games . Eng do not make those mistakes and so have a better chance against France &amp; 3N's . This 6N's what changed ? DK will get a performance out of the team but we will still gift AUS a soft score that ultimately will cost the game . SA if the last couple of WC's continues will as defending champions reach the final . IRE qtr's defeat to SA . Which will be in line with IRB rankings and constitutes playing to our potential .

the plastic paddy
6th-June-2011, 06:22
It will be difficult to beat Australia but then again we almost beat them in Australia in the World Cup in 2003 and we should have beaten them. Of course could have and should have are a far cry from actually doing it.


This is the time for doing it. We don't want another 1 point or last minute defeat against Australia in the World Cup.


There's no point in going into a World Cup not believing you can win it.


Ireland are sufficiently talented that knowing we can beat all other 6N and non 3N teams should be a given. We should also believe that on our day we can beat Australia and have a good chance of turning over SA. The damned All Blacks is where our major problems lie as I'm not sure we really believe we can beat them although we'd like to believe it. Right on the money, but play NZ in a final and the pressure will all be on them and pressure can do funny things! with the ABs worth remembering the second half last summer when down to 14 and outscored them; know they were coasting a bit but...

tickettout
6th-June-2011, 10:41
I think the team is definitely stronger than the team in2007 -


Bowe and Earls are a different class to the likes of Trimble and Horgan.


Our backrow has probably never been better - Ferris, SOB ,Heaslip* and Wallace are all exceptional players.


We have far far greater options at halfback than Stringer and ROG. No half back is guaranteed his place this time out if not performing.


The coaching staff are also far better.


The players have since won 3 HEC and a Grand Slam since 2007.


Last chance saloon for the better/older players. Just as McCaw and Carters careers will be tarnished imoif they don't win the world cup this time around - there will certainly be a huge gloss taken off the careers of BOD,POC and ROG ifIreland don't perform in this world cup yet again.


Beating either Aus or SA will lead to a w/c semi - that has to be the target.

The Outlaw
6th-June-2011, 10:46
I think the team is definitely
stronger than the team in*2007 -


Bowe and Earls are a different class to the likes of
Trimble and Horgan.


Our backrow has probably never been better - Ferris,
SOB ,Heaslip* and Wallace are all exceptional players.


We have far far greater options at halfback than
Stringer and ROG. No half back is guaranteed his place this
time out if not performing.


The coaching staff are also far better.


The players have since won 3 HEC and a Grand Slam
since 2007.


Last chance saloon for the better/older players. Just as
McCaw and Carters careers will be tarnished imo*if they
don't win the world cup this time around - there will
certainly be a huge gloss taken off the careers of BOD,POC
and ROG if*Ireland don't perform in this world cup yet
again.


Beating either Aus or SA will lead to a w/c semi - that
has to be the target.

It has to be the target because it could be an awful long
time again before we could make the last 4. Because for all
the young talent people talk about it- there isnt anyone
remotely in POC or BOD's class.

shipstirrer
6th-June-2011, 21:38
Any idea when the squad will be announced?

mtcmolloy
9th-June-2011, 06:33
We are good enough to get to the final and we should say so.





I think we tried that approach last time out..
Weren't ROG, BoD, DOC crowing about how 'we can' beat
teams.. may even have said something ott like, we can
beat anybody.

It's true that we now have a slightly stronger squad than
four years ago, but as was mentioned we still retain the
occasional shoot yourself in the foot beaten before you
get on the field attitude, ala st Denis every two years.
That plucky irish thing just isn't going away.

Hugonaut
9th-June-2011, 07:36
It has to be the target because it could be an awful long

time again before we could make the last 4. Because for all

the young talent people talk about it- there isnt anyone

remotely in POC or BOD's class.



O'Connell and Sean O'Brien both made their break-through into their respective provincial sides at 21 years old. O'Connell made his debut for Ireland as a 22 year old, O'Brien as a 23 year old.

3 years into their respective careers, O'Brien is ahead of where O'Connell was in his career in almost every facet. More starts for Ireland, more starts for his club, more tries, more medals, more individual awards.

He has a long, long way to go before he can match O'Connell's body of work [75 Irish caps, 6 Lions test starts, Lions captain etc. IRB International Player of the Year nominee in 06, double HEC-winning captain], but he has made a hell of a start. Comparing their careers at the three-year mark, you'd have to say that not only is O'Brien 'remotely' in POC's league, he's definitely</span> in the same league.

Cowboy
9th-June-2011, 07:45
It has to be the target because it could be an awful long
time again before we could make the last 4. Because for
all
the young talent people talk about it- there isnt anyone
remotely in POC or BOD's class.
O'Connell and Sean O'Brien both made their
break-through into their respective provincial sides at 21
years old. O'Connell made his debut for Ireland as a 22
year old, O'Brien as a 23 year old.3 years into their
respective careers, O'Brien is ahead of where O'Connell
was in his career in almost every facet. More starts for
Ireland, more starts for his club, more tries, more
medals, more individual awards. He has a long, long way
to go before he can match O'Connell's body of work [75
Irish caps, 6 Lions test starts, Lions captain etc. IRB
International Player of the Year nominee in 06, double
HEC-winning captain], but he has made a hell of a start.
Comparing their careers at the three-year mark, you'd
have to say that not only is O'Brien 'remotely' in POC's
league, he's &lt;span style="font-style:
italic;"&gt;definitely&lt;/span&gt; in the same league.


Thats the crux, SOB could be our next linchpin superstar
for Ireland. WHats also relevant is the calibre of the
other 14 on the field with him. At the start of his career
Odriscoll was surrounded by good, but not great players.
Whereas today, we have 2 or 3 players who would make
any team and 12 very very good players. Apart from the
big 2, almost every other nation is in a similar boat to
ours, 1 or 2 superstars and the rest are good players.

sewa
9th-June-2011, 07:55
I think they'll surprise us.

smileys/cool.gif


They certainly did in 2007..

tickettout
9th-June-2011, 07:57
It has to be the target because it could be an awful long
time again before we could make the last 4. Because for all
the young talent people talk about it- there isnt anyone
remotely in POC or BOD's class.


O'Connell and Sean O'Brien both made their break-through into their respective provincial sides at 21 years old. O'Connell made his debut for Ireland as a 22 year old, O'Brien as a 23 year old.

3 years into their respective careers, O'Brien is ahead of where O'Connell was in his career in almost every facet. More starts for Ireland, more starts for his club, more tries, more medals, more individual awards.

He has a long, long way to go before he can match O'Connell's body of work [75 Irish caps, 6 Lions test starts, Lions captain etc. IRB International Player of the Year nominee in 06, double HEC-winning captain], but he has made a hell of a start. Comparing their careers at the three-year mark, you'd have to say that not only is O'Brien 'remotely' in POC's league, he's definitely in the same league.




I don't know who's paying you for your time at work to be looking up stats! but they can be very misleading.


There are alot of people who still wouldn't see SOB as first choice for Ireland if everyone was fit.

NotreDameRFC
9th-June-2011, 08:02
It has to be the target because it could be an awful long
time again before we could make the last 4. Because for all
the young talent people talk about it- there isnt anyone
remotely in POC or BOD's class.


O'Connell and Sean O'Brien both made their break-through into their respective provincial sides at 21 years old. O'Connell made his debut for Ireland as a 22 year old, O'Brien as a 23 year old.

3 years into their respective careers, O'Brien is ahead of where O'Connell was in his career in almost every facet. More starts for Ireland, more starts for his club, more tries, more medals, more individual awards.

He has a long, long way to go before he can match O'Connell's body of work [75 Irish caps, 6 Lions test starts, Lions captain etc. IRB International Player of the Year nominee in 06, double HEC-winning captain], but he has made a hell of a start. Comparing their careers at the three-year mark, you'd have to say that not only is O'Brien 'remotely' in POC's league, he's definitely in the same league.




I don't know who's paying you for your time at work to be looking up stats! but they can be very misleading.


There are alot of people who still wouldn't see SOB as first choice for Ireland if everyone was fit.





True TT - but POC has not got locks with equivalent talent of Heaslip Ferris Wally Jennings Leamy Coughlan Muldoon Wilson Ruddock Dom Ryan McLoughlan Don Ryan NBest Faloon Chauncey O Toole.....smileys/biggrin.gifetc etc......... chomping as his heels....

Talking Sense
9th-June-2011, 08:06
double HEC-winning captain]

Ahem! Axel Foley wouldn't like to see that.

Apart from that tiny error its a fair comparison. SOB is
certainly on the right track.

tickettout
9th-June-2011, 08:11
POC has never really had competition for his place at Munster, Ireland or theLions.


Even as he is pushing on - there are still few locks that you would want over him. He weighed in with two huge turnovers and penalties in the process against Leisnter when they had us on the rack in the ML final. It was match winning stuff.


Courtney Lawes and these guys could only dream about such plays.

tickettout
9th-June-2011, 08:18
BTW didn't sean o brien make hisn Ireland debut in 2009 - 2 years ago which would have made him 21/22 at the time?


Replaced Ferris after a few minutesagainst South Africa and had a fine game.

Hugonaut
9th-June-2011, 08:34
It has to be the target because it could be an awful long
time again before we could make the last 4. Because for all
the young talent people talk about it- there isnt anyone
remotely in POC or BOD's class.


O'Connell and Sean O'Brien both made their break-through into their respective provincial sides at 21 years old. O'Connell made his debut for Ireland as a 22 year old, O'Brien as a 23 year old.

3 years into their respective careers, O'Brien is ahead of where O'Connell was in his career in almost every facet. More starts for Ireland, more starts for his club, more tries, more medals, more individual awards.

He has a long, long way to go before he can match O'Connell's body of work [75 Irish caps, 6 Lions test starts, Lions captain etc. IRB International Player of the Year nominee in 06, double HEC-winning captain], but he has made a hell of a start. Comparing their careers at the three-year mark, you'd have to say that not only is O'Brien 'remotely' in POC's league, he's definitely</span> in the same league.




I don't know who's paying you for your time at work to be looking up stats! but they can be very misleading.


There are alot of people who still wouldn't see SOB as first choice for Ireland if everyone was fit.
Those ones are pretty much rainmaned out of my memory - but I can pretty much see the matrix at this stage between scrum.com, irishrugby.ie and the leinster and munster sites!

When O'Connell arrived on the scene, even before he debuted for Ireland, Munster fans in the know were saying that he was going to get 50+ caps, that he was going to be a serious force at international level – and they were right.

Truth be told, I didn't expect O'Brien to have the breakout season that he did, and I can't believe just how much his hands have improved under Schmidt. With that said, there were plenty of people on Leinsterfans who were huge</span> O'Brien fans a couple of seasons ago, [Dave Cahill for one], and were saying more or less the same sort of things that people were saying about O'Connell a decade ago.

As for the stats being misleading, how? Obviously the two players don't play in the same position, but don't get carried away with provincial loyalty, or some sort of slavish adherence to the 'Golden Generation' doctrine: guys like Ferris, O'Brien, Heaslip, Bowe, Healy and Kearney have arguably achieved or surpassed the standards of their predecessors while the latter are still warm in their proverbial tombs.

Earls looks like he could have an outstanding RWC, as could Jones or Murray, if selected. Sean Cronin or Mike Sherry could just go apesh*t next season and install themselves as unquestionably the best hooker in the country ... it's very, very difficult to predict who's going to make the breakthrough. Nagle or Donnacha Ryan could step it up in a big way and displace O'Callaghan more or less permanently.

Of the guys I played against, it was obvious that D'Arcy was an incredible player, but he almost p¡ssed it away before Mark Ella made him a centre. I thought that Jenno would be an Irish captain and win 50 or 60 caps ... hasn't happened for him. You never know who's going to blow up.

Ruck
9th-June-2011, 08:59
Gary Ella shirley?
Tsk tsk statto!

Tobyglen
9th-June-2011, 08:59
I think the
team is definitely
stronger than the team in*2007 -


Bowe and Earls are a different class to the likes of
Trimble and Horgan.


Our backrow has probably never been better - Ferris,
SOB ,Heaslip* and Wallace are all exceptional players.


We have far far greater options at halfback than
Stringer and ROG. No half back is guaranteed his place this
time out if not performing.


The coaching staff are also far better.


The players have since won 3 HEC and a Grand Slam
since 2007.


Last chance saloon for the better/older players. Just as
McCaw and Carters careers will be tarnished imo*if they
don't win the world cup this time around - there will
certainly be a huge gloss taken off the careers of BOD,POC
and ROG if*Ireland don't perform in this world cup yet
again.


Beating either Aus or SA will lead to a w/c semi - that
has to be the target.

It has to be the target because it could be an awful long
time again before we could make the last 4. Because for all
the young talent people talk about it- there isnt anyone
remotely in POC or BOD's class.

They said that about the 2007 team, golden generation &
all that. If anything rugby is stronger now than ever. The
amount & quality of young guys coming through in the last
2 years bodes very well for the future.

Hugonaut
9th-June-2011, 09:02
Gary Ella shirley?

Tsk tsk statto!

I am never going to write another post without fact-checking – how many things did I get wrong in the last two posts? O'Brien's debut, O'Connell's captaincy record, now Ella's name ... that is some quality getting-sh*t-muddled-up.