European league anyone?

[the plastic paddy]

Fair bit of chatter about aEuropean league in pressand very interesting thread about English rugby finances so thought I would cut to the chase and ask Munster fans what they think of a Euro league.

[Bosco]

No thanks, the French wouldn't have any interest, and it would
mean the end of the HEC.It would never be better than the
HEC

[Viigand]

No, not needed.

[greenback]

invitable in the long run....pro rugby is constantly changing

[bobbin]

No thanks, they are talking about this in soccer for years, a sport that could actually probably sustain it. Grand for Munster and leinster but will kill the smaller clubs everywhere else and whilst it might increase the popularity of the game with the media dont think it will do the sport any good in the long term.


I dont have huge issue with system as it plays at the moment.

[Appletart]

<S&#079;NG>Division 1:</S&#079;NG>


Munster; Leinster; Ulster


Toulouse; Clermont; Racing Metro


Cardiff; Ospreys; Scarlets


Leicester; Saracens; Northampton


<S&#079;NG>Division 2:</S&#079;NG>


Connacht


Castres; Toulon; Montpellier; Biarritz; Bayonne


Newport


Edinburgh; Glasgow


London Irish; Gloucester; Harlequins; Bath; Wasps


<S&#079;NG>Division 3:</S&#079;NG>


Exeter; Sale; Newcastle; Leeds


Aironi; Treviso


Perpignan; Stade; Brive; Agen; La Rochelle; Bourgoin





<S&#079;NG>Im going by as it stands in the leagues, with the exception of a few teams who should finish higher. 12 teams in each division, 2 teams promoted and two relegated. This would make it more competitive. A league like this would bring big money but then you might as well get rid of the HC and the Amlin because its essentially the same thing just in league format.</S&#079;NG>


<S&#079;NG>One problem though..........the french would never go for it!!!</S&#079;NG>

[ArgiesIreland]

awful idea,
The thing that makes the Heineken cup so special is that its the only time of the year where you get to play the English and french, and you also get to play teams you have never played before.
If we played the English and french in a league format every year, it would eventually get very boring i think
Sure look at the S15, i think one of the reasons the fans are losing interest down below is that you have 15 teams playing each other, and then for the tri-nations they stick on different coloured jerseys and play each other again.

[KapKremmen]

There is already a very disappointing level of away support at ML
games with the exception of a few derby games. An expanded
league that includes two additional countries would be a further
move into a TV money dominated game. I don't want to see rugby
to follow soccer in that regard.

[DONC]

Dont really ever see this happening though it could be interesting. I cant see it really improving crowds except perhaps in Wales. There would be some extra fans from English clubs perhaps coming to Thomond but you couldn't see many more travelling from Wales and the French dont travel for the Heino what chance a league?


This would also be the death of MP until at least a half decent stadium is built there as we would have to get &gt;15,000 per match I would have thought to survive.


Personally I think the Magners (or Fiat or Celtic orwhatever next season) league is coming along fine for a young league. I find it enjoyable to watch Munster in it anyway.

[Mule]

No thanks. Expand the Magners into a two tier league, letting
in teams from Spain, Portugal, Germany, Poland and maybe
Georgia, Romania and Russia get into the mix. With relegation
and promotion, it might open the eyes of the Scots and the
Welsh to how crappy some of their teams have become. Let
the Brits lie in the bed they made and go bankrupt.

[DONC]

No thanks. Expand the Magners into a two tier league, letting
in teams from Spain, Portugal, Germany, Poland and maybe
Georgia, Romania and Russia get into the mix. With relegation
and promotion, it might open the eyes of the Scots and the
Welsh to how crappy some of their teams have become. Let
the Brits lie in the bed they made and go bankrupt.


It would make it a much better league were there promotion and relegation but the IRB would have to bank roll such a league for some time until there were sufficient teams of quality and support. Would they be willing to do this?

[JoeyFantastic]

No thanks. Expand the Magners into a
two tier league, letting
in teams from Spain, Portugal, Germany, Poland and
maybe
Georgia, Romania and Russia get into the mix. With
relegation
and promotion, it might open the eyes of the Scots and the
Welsh to how crappy some of their teams have become.
Let
the Brits lie in the bed they made and go bankrupt.


Can never see it happening but it'd be great if it could be
done. 2 more Italian teams, 4 iberian teams, 4 others
(Belgium/Germany?)

There's already a pro league in Russia so the IRB should
work on getting that league up to Amlin/HEC pool standard.

[the plastic paddy]

Really interesting to read everyones opinions. I think the present format is fairly good as it stands but think they need to look into two ML tiers as one criticism that holds water is no promotion/relegation. The English will have to get with the game or rugby could implode there.

[Hugonaut]

Really interesting to read everyones opinions. I think the present format is fairly good as it stands but think they need to look into two ML tiers as one criticism that holds water is no promotion/relegation. The English will have to get with the game or rugby could implode there.

What teams in the Magner's League countries deserve promotion? There are no professional teams in Scotland, Wales and Ireland not playing in the Magner's League.

The English teams are the ones that consistently b***h and moan about how everybody else's league is wrong but theirs ... the irony apparently being lost on them.

[keliam]

Wont happen. They would look over 5 to 10 year period in previous compitions to make up format.


Sarasens, Scarletsand Ulster Div 1 ?


Connacht, Newport and Glasgow Div 2 ?


How did you end up with Perpignan and Stade in Div 3 <S&#079;NG>


Division 1:</S&#079;NG>


Munster; Leinster; Ulster


Toulouse; Clermont; Racing Metro


Cardiff; Ospreys; Scarlets


Leicester; Saracens; Northampton


<S&#079;NG>Division 2:</S&#079;NG>


Connacht


Castres; Toulon; Montpellier; Biarritz; Bayonne


Newport


Edinburgh; Glasgow


London Irish; Gloucester; Harlequins; Bath; Wasps


<S&#079;NG>Division 3:</S&#079;NG>


Exeter; Sale; Newcastle; Leeds


Aironi; Treviso


Perpignan; Stade; Brive; Agen; La Rochelle; Bourgoin





<S&#079;NG>Im going by as it stands in the leagues, with the exception of a few teams who should finish higher. 12 teams in each division, 2 teams promoted and two relegated. This would make it more competitive. A league like this would bring big money but then you might as well get rid of the HC and the Amlin because its essentially the same thing just in league format.</S&#079;NG>


<S&#079;NG>One problem though..........the french would never go for it!!!</S&#079;NG>

[JoeyFantastic]

[]What teams in the Magner's League countries deserve
promotion? There are no professional teams in Scotland,
Wales and Ireland not playing in the Magner's
League..

Find new teams for a second tier.

See if Spain and Portugal could be tempted to follow Italy's
model and impose regionalisation. If teams could be
magicked up from Rome, Florence, Madrid, Barcelona,
Lisbon, Porto, etc you could create a two tier league. It's
pie-in-the-sky of course.

The Scots would never agree to it though, because while
the IRFU probably wouldn't care too much if Connacht were
relegated, that Scots wouldn't want either of their teams to
go down.

[The Outlaw]

The Magners is a pretty piss poor standard compared to the
HEC.

[Tobyglen]

French teams wouldn't touch this with a barge pole.


English league is piss poor now, I guess English league joining up wih Magners would be okay, 2 tier system of promotion &amp; relegation. Would never happen though as English teams can barely keep afloat, nevermind the travel costs associated.

[Cowboy]

I saw something about this in an article before, how the
threat of relegation stymies the creative side of rugby. English
premiership clubs have one goal (by and large) avoid
relegation. They're terrified of the financial implications of
falling from the top table. We dont have that issue in the ML,
nor is it present in the super 15. You're guaranteed to remain
competing with the best so you can plan accordingly.

[slipper1]

[]What teams in the Magner's League countries deserve
promotion? There are no professional teams in Scotland,
Wales and Ireland not playing in the Magner's
League..

Find new teams for a second tier.

See if Spain and Portugal could be tempted to follow Italy's
model and impose regionalisation. If teams could be
magicked up from Rome, Florence, Madrid, Barcelona,
Lisbon, Porto, etc you could create a two tier league. It's
pie-in-the-sky of course.

The Scots would never agree to it though, because while
the IRFU probably wouldn't care too much if Connacht were
relegated, that Scots wouldn't want either of their teams to
go down.


Toughluck on the Scots - just not good enough. Ulster wouldn't make the grade either .... going on ERC rankings top 15 teams


1 Munster
2 Toulouse
3 Leinster
4 Leicester
5 Biarritz
6 Cardiff
7 Wasps
8 Stade Francais
9 Ospreys
10 Clermont Auvergne
11 Northampton
12 Bath
13 Scarlets
14 Gloucester
15 Perpignan

[The Outlaw]

French teams wouldn't touch this with
a barge pole.


English league is piss poor now, I guess English league
joining up wih Magners would be okay, 2 tier system of
promotion & relegation. Would never happen though as
English teams can barely keep afloat, nevermind the travel
costs associated.

bar the leinster v munster games the rest fo the games are
are a fairly low standard.

[Cowboy]

Cant see the merit in losing a cup competition for a league.
Why would you get worked up about playing Tolouse in a final
if you've played them twice already that season?


Knock out matches are where its at. Dont come around too
often, nobody gets to play each other so much they figure
out the opposition. Makes for great one off events.

[kermit]

Find new teams for a second tier.


Split Munster into Limerick &amp; Cork?

[JoeyFantastic]

Find new teams
for a second tier.


Split Munster into Limerick & Cork?

We could just enter Munster A into a comp, they'd be
competitive against the likes of Connacht anyhow.

[Tobyglen]

I saw something about this in an article before, how the
threat of relegation stymies the creative side of rugby. English
premiership clubs have one goal (by and large) avoid
relegation. They're terrified of the financial implications of
falling from the top table. We dont have that issue in the ML,
nor is it present in the super 15. You're guaranteed to remain
competing with the best so you can plan accordingly.


That's a myth conjured up by Stuart Barnes, Stephen Jones. Only 1 team gets relegated so you have to be dreadful to be involved in that battle. The skill levels are just way down, just look at the national team. Big bruisers but little else.

[Cowboy]

I saw something
about this in an article before, how the threat of relegation
stymies the creative side of rugby. English premiership
clubs have one goal (by and large) avoid relegation.
They're terrified of the financial implications of falling from
the top table. We dont have that issue in the ML, nor is it
present in the super 15. You're guaranteed to remain
competing with the best so you can plan accordingly.



That's a myth conjured up by Stuart Barnes, Stephen
Jones. Only 1 team gets relegated so you have to be
dreadful to be involved in that battle. The skill levels are
just way down, just look at the national team. Big bruisers
but little else.

I spose thats true. They've relegation in the Top14 too but
they all play sexy rugby.

[JP Jones]

<S&#079;NG>Division 1:</S&#079;NG>


Munster; Leinster; Ulster


Toulouse; Clermont; Racing Metro


Cardiff; Ospreys; Scarlets


Leicester; Saracens; Northampton


<S&#079;NG>Division 2:</S&#079;NG>


Connacht


Castres; Toulon; Montpellier; Biarritz; Bayonne


Newport


Edinburgh; Glasgow


London Irish; Gloucester; Harlequins; Bath; Wasps


<S&#079;NG>Division 3:</S&#079;NG>


Exeter; Sale; Newcastle; Leeds


Aironi; Treviso


Perpignan; Stade; Brive; Agen; La Rochelle; Bourgoin





<S&#079;NG>Im going by as it stands in the leagues, with the exception of a few teams who should finish higher. 12 teams in each division, 2 teams promoted and two relegated. This would make it more competitive. A league like this would bring big money but then you might as well get rid of the HC and the Amlin because its essentially the same thing just in league format.</S&#079;NG>


<S&#079;NG>One problem though..........the french would never go for it!!!</S&#079;NG>





It has to happen and the sooner the better.You've got the format nearly right, but I don't think there would be a third tier. Two tiers of 12-15 teams.


I reckon it might happen in about five years or so, depending on current TV contracts etc.


The French will go for it if the cash is right and if as many of their teams can be included as possible. Two tiers gets almost everyone in the door, but there will be casualties.

OK a few thoughts on this and some of the suggestions made.

1. It will, as many have said, kill not just the HEC but the Amlin as well, thus reducing the amount of rugby development across Europe. You'd never again be able to get a situation where someone like Munster was in the Amlin.

2. The English, as we've seen from what they tried with the then 5N, would want to control the lot. Their clubs are right bo***cks when they want to be, cutting relegation when it suits, carrying out shifty backstabbing against the due to be promoted team over ground rules the big boys themselves aren't meeting. I can pretty much guarantee they wouldn't agree to a promotion/relegation set up. Or if they did it would be on the basis of bottom team is replaced by one from their own country or one from the winner's country (whichever helps them more). They'll want half the league to be English and pseudo-English tossers like Stephen Jones will still claim Munster and Leinster have it too easy. (They certainly won't want too many Irish sides just in case we get uppity and win the thing).

3. The French will threaten to leave every other year, especially if one of their teams is getting relegated.

4. I found it odd people liked the idea of an expanded ML league featuring Russia etc but thought the travelling to/from England or France would be too much for supporters. Ummm Portugal, Spain, Romania and especially Russia are a touch further - as is Italy who we currently already play in the league.

5. It will all go

[JP Jones]

OK a few thoughts on this and some of the suggestions made.

1. It will, as many have said, kill not just the HEC but the Amlin as well, thus reducing the amount of rugby development across Europe. You'd never again be able to get a situation where someone like Munster was in the Amlin.

2. The English, as we've seen from what they tried with the then 5N, would want to control the lot. Their clubs are right bo***cks when they want to be, cutting relegation when it suits, carrying out shifty backstabbing against the due to be promoted team over ground rules the big boys themselves aren't meeting. I can pretty much guarantee they wouldn't agree to a promotion/relegation set up. Or if they did it would be on the basis of bottom team is replaced by one from their own country or one from the winner's country (whichever helps them more). They'll want half the league to be English and pseudo-English tossers like Stephen Jones will still claim Munster and Leinster have it too easy. (They certainly won't want too many Irish sides just in case we get uppity and win the thing).

3. The French will threaten to leave every other year, especially if one of their teams is getting relegated.

4. I found it odd people liked the idea of an expanded ML league featuring Russia etc but thought the travelling to/from England or France would be too much for supporters. Ummm Portugal, Spain, Romania and especially Russia are a touch further - as is Italy who we currently already play in the league.

5. It will all go



I don't see how the English clubs would be able to "call the shots". They're the ones that are hard-up and need a European League the most. So I can't see them dictating the ground rules to everyone else. If they're already floating the concept publicly, you can be damn sure there's meetings already going on behind closed doors with the Irish and Welsh clubs. Informal talks at the very least.


And if it's a two tier system then you will see three Irish outfits I imagine - Munster, Leinster and Ulster. In season one, two of those would be top tier with the third able to gain promotion after that.


I'm confident it could be a raging success and expand the game.

Have a look at the battle between the RFU and the English clubs and the history of what those clubs have tried to pull internally and externally. I agree they shouldn't be in the position to call the shots but neither are we (financially) and that hasn't stopped them in the past. Don't forget the RFU told Sky they as good as had our agreement to move the 5N to them, without any discussions at all. The more those clubs need money the more they'll be greedy about it. Check out how many times they've tried to get relegation dropped for a year where it didn't suit them. Common sense has nothing to do with what they'd try.

[JP Jones]

Have a look at the battle between the RFU and the English clubs and the history of what those clubs have tried to pull internally and externally. I agree they shouldn't be in the position to call the shots but neither are we (financially) and that hasn't stopped them in the past. Don't forget the RFU told Sky they as good as had our agreement to move the 5N to them, without any discussions at all. The more those clubs need money the more they'll be greedy about it. Check out how many times they've tried to get relegation dropped for a year where it didn't suit them. Common sense has nothing to do with what they'd try.


Let them try it. Everyone is obviously going to try and further their own interests. But once the ground rules are agreed and the system is up and running, then I think some sort of harmony would break out.


I think the bottom line for a lot of people will be this - do you want to see Munster playing Clermont/Leicester/etc twice a year with full strength teams in front of full houses, or do you want to keep watching us play the likes of Edinburgh in empty Murrayfield?


The Magners League and Aviva Premiership are as dull as dishwater compared with European competition.


In a two tier system we could make room for most existing outfits, and introduce promotional play-offsbetween those at the footof the top tier and those at the top of the lower tier.


The top four teams in the top tier would play semis and a grand final.


It would all be terribly exciting.

[Cowboy]

Have a look at
the battle between the RFU and the English clubs and the
history of what those clubs have tried to pull internally and
externally.* I agree they shouldn't be in the position to call
the shots but neither are we (financially) and that hasn't
stopped them in the past.* Don't forget the RFU told Sky
they as good as had our agreement to move the 5N to
them, without any discussions at all.* The more those clubs
need money the more they'll be greedy about it.* Check out
how many times they've tried to get relegation dropped for
a year where it didn't suit them.* Common sense has
nothing to do with what they'd try.


Let them try it. Everyone is obviously going to try and
further their own interests. But once the ground rules are
agreed and the system is up and running, then I think some
sort of harmony would break out.


I think the bottom line for a lot of people will be this -
do you want to see Munster playing Clermont/Leicester/etc
twice a year with full strength teams in front of full houses,
or do you want to keep watching us play the likes of
Edinburgh in empty Murrayfield?


The Magners League and Aviva Premiership are as dull as
dishwater compared with European competition.


In a two tier system we could make room for most
existing outfits, and introduce promotional play-
offs*between those at the foot*of the top tier and those at
the top of the lower tier.


The top four teams in the top tier would play semis and
a grand final.


It would all be terribly exciting.*

If you get clermont or leicester in your heineken pool you
play them twice anyway! I think the setup we have at the
moment is pretty excellent. The league we have is a
testing ground for upcoming players. The Cup is played at
near test level and offers different opposition, venues, and
fans every year, on top of the knock out nature of it.

[Cowboy]

And leagues are dull because you become familiar with your
opposition.

[dropkick]

I'd be all in favour of an extended magners league. There
might be a problem with eastern European countries in it
because of all the travelling involved but a few teams from
Portugal, Spain, Belgium, Germany and the Netherlands etc
could be part of it.

Have 2 divisions of 14 teams with one (or two to make it more
interesting) team being relegated every season.

[JP Jones]

Have a look at
the battle between the RFU and the English clubs and the
history of what those clubs have tried to pull internally and
externally. I agree they shouldn't be in the position to call
the shots but neither are we (financially) and that hasn't
stopped them in the past. Don't forget the RFU told Sky
they as good as had our agreement to move the 5N to
them, without any discussions at all. The more those clubs
need money the more they'll be greedy about it. Check out
how many times they've tried to get relegation dropped for
a year where it didn't suit them. Common sense has
nothing to do with what they'd try.



Let them try it. Everyone is obviously going to try and
further their own interests. But once the ground rules are
agreed and the system is up and running, then I think some
sort of harmony would break out.



I think the bottom line for a lot of people will be this -
do you want to see Munster playing Clermont/Leicester/etc
twice a year with full strength teams in front of full houses,
or do you want to keep watching us play the likes of
Edinburgh in empty Murrayfield?



The Magners League and Aviva Premiership are as dull as
dishwater compared with European competition.



In a two tier system we could make room for most
existing outfits, and introduce promotional play-
offsbetween those at the footof the top tier and those at
the top of the lower tier.



The top four teams in the top tier would play semis and
a grand final.



It would all be terribly exciting.




If you get clermont or leicester in your heineken pool you
play them twice anyway! I think the setup we have at the
moment is pretty excellent. The league we have is a
testing ground for upcoming players. The Cup is played at
near test level and offers different opposition, venues, and
fans every year, on top of the knock out nature of it.


The Heineken Cup system IS exciting - which is why it's worth expanding in some format or other.


The Magners League is rarely as exciting.


If there was a two tier European system then the up and coming players could gain experience by playing a season or two in the lower league before returning to their home club. Or a British &amp; Irish Cup system could still exist to blood the emerging stars.


I think a European League will certainlydevelop at some stage. I think the chief exec at Harlequins said not long ago that it would happen in five years.

Actually if we had a league system I'd want a requirement to be every team has to be capable of and prepared to field A sides as well. That way we can develop the next generation by playing sides like Toulouse A or Leicester A, which might actually prove of at least the same if not more value than some wet and windy ML weekends.

I don't mind the idea of the league, if we broke required leagues down so each provided teams to make up a 2 or even 3 tier league, with promotion and relegation. So ML/AP/T14 split like that. That'd be my issue though, can't see that working out and promotion from below, i.e. in England and France won't work out.

[JP Jones]

Ultimately, all it would take to make a European League happen is for 12-15 clubs to wave goodbye to their loss-making domestic partners, which would be pretty ruthless.


It would be far better if everyone agreed a two tier system so everyone could be brought on the ship.

[Cowboy]

I think the Heineken is exciting because its not week in week
out. Teams build themselves up over a series of weeks for a
heineken game. I think putting the top teams all together in
one league would diminish that. Plus a team like brive or
connacht would never play the bigger sides again. They'd just
languish in the bottom table the whole time.

[DONC]

4. I found it odd people liked the idea of an expanded ML league featuring Russia etc but thought the travelling to/from England or France would be too much for supporters. Ummm Portugal, Spain, Romania and especially Russia are a touch further - as is Italy who we currently already play in the league.




Thats why an expanded ML would need to be supported by the IRB or at least the ERC, there would be a novelty factor going to Berlin or Amsterdam or where ever for a game but in the main it will be home supporters only at games. The beauty of this would be to try and grow the game in Europe which if successful the league could then be self financing.


This would be much the same for a European league if we are playing Clermont or USAP in a league match at Thomondhow many will travel with them little or none I would say. There would perhaps be some from English teams but thats about it. A European league would be a TV league in the main so France and England would call the shots.

[Justtoby]

It's inevitable in the long run. TV money will dictate it. Some say the French are wedded to the Top 14. I disagree. They're wedded to playing for the Bouclier but regularly change the format of their top division. They could easily be persuaded to entering a European competition if the situation was right

We'll could see the Heineken Cup expand in size to a 32, 36 or 40 team competition. 8, 9 or 10 groups of 4 teams (for example one group could be Munster, Ulster, Leinster and Connacht). Play each team in your group home and away and two teams from every other group once, home or away.

That's a 20-24 game season in which you play 17-21 different teams - lots of variety from season to season as well as keeping up traditional rivalries. Follow that up with a 16 team playoff (two teams qualify from each group) with the winner claiming the Bouclier or Heineken Cup trophy.

Fixture congestion is solved. Player burnout is less of an issue. TV is happy. Fans are happy because every game is meaningful. There's an opportunity to expand the league throughout Europe by adding Russian, Georgian, Romanian, Spanish, Italian or Portugese franchises over time. The sport in Europe benefits.

I'd much prefer that option to a European league with promotion and relegation. Only the top 10 or so clubs benefit from it and it does nothing to grow the sport. Who'd really want to watch division 2 or 3 European rugby? It would be as unattractive for TV and fans as the Amlin Cup group stages and is worse than the current league system.

[scotscor]

Won't happen. Lets imagine a european league encompassing the 14 french, the 12 english and 12 Magners sides. Add in two georgian and two russian sides for good measure. 42 Sides. Three divisions of 14. Well, hmmm connacht are in Division 3 well they will be bust within seconds.
So its not viable to have anything but a top tier. Grand lets have a top tier of 16 sides.
Who will we include? 5 French, 5 English 3 Welsh and 3 Irish sides. Excellent, Scotalnd, Italy Connacht are doomed. But thats ok because its survival of the fittest and money dictates.
Odd though after two season, Scarlets, Ulster, Glaws, London Irish are getting hammered in every one of their away games and losing almost all of their home games. Crowds are no longer going to their games. In fact when Munster play Scarlets in the remodelled Thomond Park only 20% or 10k are turning up. The place is like a morgue.

A European league was inevitable in Soccer. You may think its happened but only as an accompaniment to the main national league.
Rangers and Celtic inevitably ended up in England.
Very few things are inevitable in life and almost nothing in Sport. I very much doubt that a European League will happen in rugby in the next ten years,

[Jambo93]

People are forgetting that professional rugby is still in its
infancy and domestic leagues are still finding their feet.
Magners league and Top 14 are improving constantly. The
Aviva may have stalled but things will pick up up. Clubs like
Bath and Saracens are receiving significant yet stable
investment and with England hosting the World Cup after this
one, interest in rugby will soar there.

[lineens weegie army]

It's inevitable that in football the Old Firm will join the English Premiership, or break off and join an Atlantic League. It has been for as long as I care to remember, but yet it hasn't happened yet.. Why not?


Well, basically because the other 10 SPL clubs dont want it (although sometimes I wish they did, might bene.. ahh, I digress), and very few premiership/proposed atlantic league teams want it.


Who would want this European League? Leicester would (why they are proposing it), and possibly Northampton, since they both feel the salary cap in england holds them back. Do Newcastle want it though? or Sale? These clubs can only compete because of the salary cap, and are not going to abandon that.


Would the Irish want it? you know better than I do, but I would have thought you guys would be quite happy with the current set up?


Would the Welsh want it? well probably, any opertunity to hump englands leg ect. but it wouldn't benefit them in the way they think it would.


Would the scots want it? (change? dont be so feckin ridiculous.. the only think that has changed in 6 years is the size of our CEO's pay cheque) I fear this would spell the end for rugby in Scotland... (hardly growing the game, eh)


Would the french want it? the Bouclier has well over 100 years of history, and half the teams are capable of pulling in crowds of over 30,000. feck, even Lyon in Pro D2 pulled in 32,000 this season! The Top 14 should be the envy of every other rugby playing country, and they would be mad to give that up!! They are french mind...


Would the Italians want it? No way, they are only just finding their feet in the ML as it is. The fight they had to get regular games v Munster and Leinster, they are not going to give it up easilly.





Can't really see the argument for a 'Pro 12 B', too much travelling involved for teams who will be on small budgets - would however like to see the Celtic Cup trophy put to good use, competed for during international windows by the Irish, Scots, Italians, Spanish, Portugees, Russians and Georgians (to my knowledge the only country that doesn't have pro teams is Georgia). Yes the ML sides will be below strength, but that means the Iberian/eastern europeans could have a genuine chance.


That, and get the Russian Champions into the ACC - it's a f*cking disgrace that hasn't happened yet!!

[JoeyFantastic]

Can't really see the argument for a 'Pro 12 B', too much
travelling involved for teams who will be on small budgets -
would however like to see the Celtic Cup trophy put to good
use, competed for during international windows by the
Irish, Scots, Italians, Spanish, Portugees, Russians and
Georgians (to my knowledge the only country that doesn't
have pro teams is Georgia). Yes the ML sides will be below
strength, but that means the Iberian/eastern europeans
could have a genuine chance.


That, and get the Russian Champions into the ACC - it's
a f*cking disgrace that hasn't happened yet!!

The argument in favour of a Pro12 B only makes sense if
a) the IRB agreed to underwrite it and b)it's viewed as a
means to further the game. It's unrealistic to expect any
one of the imaginary teams to be self sustaining. So, it'd
have to be a vehicle for rugby to expand in the proposed
countries with a long term view to teams from larger cities
like Rome or Madrid eventually climbing out of the division.

It's much of a muchness, imo. The Italians aren't going to
always be restricted to two ML teams, eventually some sort
of Iberian league will come to fruition be it 20 or 30 years
from now, it's a question of whether the IRB drives it or if
the unions themselves drive it. Both options have
advantages and disadvantages.

Imo, due to their underage playing numbers, the size of
their economy etc Italy will eventually be able to demand
more ML places, especially if the league is sponsored by
Italian companies and their teams become increasingly
competitive. It's a genuine question imo, as who'll win a ML
title first, a Scottish or an Italian side.

[scotscor]

Can't really see the argument for a 'Pro 12 B', too much

travelling involved for teams who will be on small budgets -

would however like to see the Celtic Cup trophy put to good

use, competed for during international windows by the

Irish, Scots, Italians, Spanish, Portugees, Russians and

Georgians (to my knowledge the only country that doesn't

have pro teams is Georgia). Yes the ML sides will be below

strength, but that means the Iberian/eastern europeans

could have a genuine chance.



That, and get the Russian Champions into the ACC - it's

a f*cking disgrace that hasn't happened yet!!



The argument in favour of a Pro12 B only makes sense if

a) the IRB agreed to underwrite it and b)it's viewed as a

means to further the game. It's unrealistic to expect any

one of the imaginary teams to be self sustaining. So, it'd

have to be a vehicle for rugby to expand in the proposed

countries with a long term view to teams from larger cities

like Rome or Madrid eventually climbing out of the division.



It's much of a muchness, imo. The Italians aren't going to

always be restricted to two ML teams, eventually some sort

of Iberian league will come to fruition be it 20 or 30 years

from now, it's a question of whether the IRB drives it or if

the unions themselves drive it. Both options have

advantages and disadvantages.



Imo, due to their underage playing numbers, the size of

their economy etc Italy will eventually be able to demand

more ML places, especially if the league is sponsored by

Italian companies and their teams become increasingly

competitive. It's a genuine question imo, as who'll win a ML

title first, a Scottish or an Italian side.
The super iberian league has already happened and I believe has died -
http://www.superibericarugby.com/

[stevetelcom2000]

If a European leaguewent ahead, would the likes of Tigers reduce the amount of Non English Qualified players to match that of the Irish NIQ's? I very much doubt it.When it come's to their'level playing field' argument that particular subject rarely (if ever)gets an airing.They regularly have more overseas players in their 1st 22 than Irish teams have in their entire squad. And that’s noteven counting young Tualangi who up until a few months ago was on the verge of being deported but now finds himself on the verge of a Full English cap.smileys/wink.gif

[LeakyBoots]

Silly idea, hope it doesn't happen (and can't see it happening)

[dropkick]

Would the Irish want it? you know better than I do, but I
would have thought you guys would be quite happy with
the current set up?


From an Irish point of view I wouldn't be too quick to form
a European league. Irish teams are doing well in Europe
and the national team is getting better all the time.

There could be some hidden banana skins in a European
league that we're not aware of. As somebody pointed out,
some of the other teams might have no foreigner limit and
if 3 or 4 English teams are in it they'll have the largest
playing pool of players to choose from in the world.

Also rugby in Europe could become too one sided and the
novelty of playing top teams would wear off. Thats the
beauty of the HEC. You don't get to play teams very often.

[JoeyFantastic]

The super iberian league has already happened and I believe
has died - http://www.superibericarugby.com/

It's inevitable it'll happen again.

[Balla Boy]

The Heineken Cup system IS exciting - which is why it's worth expanding in some format or other.


This is the myth that has plagued tournaments since time began. The notion that if something works, then we should do it more and more and more and it will keep working.

The point of the HEC is that we're not in Welford Road every year, we don't play Tolouse home and away every season. They're special fixtures.

When we do draw teams a couple of years running (like Sale for instance), I find that the general interest drops.

Novelty is part of the draw, and you can't have novelty every week.

[Appletart]

Wont happen. They would look over 5 to 10 year period in previous compitions to make up format.


Sarasens, Scarletsand Ulster Div 1 ?


Connacht, Newport and Glasgow Div 2 ?


How did you end up with Perpignan and Stade in Div 3 <S&#079;NG>


Division 1:</S&#079;NG>


Munster; Leinster; Ulster


Toulouse; Clermont; Racing Metro


Cardiff; Ospreys; Scarlets


Leicester; Saracens; Northampton


<S&#079;NG>Division 2:</S&#079;NG>


Connacht


Castres; Toulon; Montpellier; Biarritz; Bayonne


Newport


Edinburgh; Glasgow


London Irish; Gloucester; Harlequins; Bath; Wasps


<S&#079;NG>Division 3:</S&#079;NG>


Exeter; Sale; Newcastle; Leeds


Aironi; Treviso


Perpignan; Stade; Brive; Agen; La Rochelle; Bourgoin





<S&#079;NG>Im going by as it stands in the leagues, with the exception of a few teams who should finish higher. 12 teams in each division, 2 teams promoted and two relegated. This would make it more competitive. A league like this would bring big money but then you might as well get rid of the HC and the Amlin because its essentially the same thing just in league format.</S&#079;NG>


<S&#079;NG>One problem though..........the french would never go for it!!!</S&#079;NG>





As I saidabove the league format goes by how the leagues stand at the moment, where in each league there is one game remaining and not much is going to change. Therefore Saracens, Ulster and Scarlets would all be involved in the division 1. Saracens because they are 2nd or 3rd in the GP, Ulster because they are the same and Scarlets because for the Heineken cup they qualify as one of the top 3 Welsh regions, thus dropping Newport. Division 1 is made of the top 3 of each country. Perpignan and Stade are in Division 3 because in their domestic league they are both doing s**te.


I did division 2 and 3 out of league position for the English and French, while the Scots, Welsh (Newport) and Italians are done through fairness. To put the Scots, Italians, French teams such as Brive, Agen and La Rochell and English teams like Newcastle, Leeds and Exeter in one would sound competitive but there is no money in a league like that seeing as the support is crap and the division would have to be disbanded after a season or 2.