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Consumer
24th-March-2011, 12:59
I think we need him for teams with crap scrums and amazing line outs like Australia. Mike Ross would be useless in that match.

Horses for courses:
Mr Scrum: Mike Ross </span>for teams with a huge scrum who don't play much
rugby like SA,

Mr Lineout: John Hayes</span> for teams with a brutal scrum and a great line out
like Australia,

Mr open play: Tony Buckley </span>for brutal teams we just want to destroy in the
loose of the ilk of Scotland.

They're all very one dimensional.

Dowlinz
24th-March-2011, 13:20
Thats basically correct and would expect all 3 to travel.

John123
24th-March-2011, 14:19
I think we need him for teams with crap scrums and amazing line outs like Australia. Mike Ross would be useless in that match. </span>




Except for the fact he could destroy their scrum?

The final TH spot is between Bull and Mushy. Hagan should be in their too but isn't for some reason...

Benji
24th-March-2011, 14:42
I think we need him for teams with crap scrums and amazing line outs like Australia. Mike Ross would be useless in that match.




Except for the fact he could destroy their scrum?

The final TH spot is between Bull and Mushy. Hagan should be in their too but isn't for some reason...
Agree let Ross damage their scrum.


We badly need a player that can playBoth tight and loose head. Just not that confident in Court. His ok for loose but not great in tight head.

bugler
24th-March-2011, 15:14
Hayes is two years past it and shouldn't be playing for Munster, never mind Ireland. What he offers in the lineout is overstated, and he's too slow and weak in the scrum at this stage to start internationally.

There are few enough teams who can be considered so weak as to think we can get by with a passenger at TH. Hayes struggled recently enough with the likes of Samoa and Fiji. Who exactly are you expecting us to face? Japan?

For TH I'd like Ross - Mushy
LH - Court (who may be considered fortunate), Healy.

John123
24th-March-2011, 15:21
I still think 5 props will travel...

I would expect a 17/13 split between forwards and backs.

Tobyglen
24th-March-2011, 15:26
Hayes is two years past it and shouldn't
be playing for Munster, never mind Ireland. What he offers
in the lineout is overstated, and he's too slow and weak in
the scrum at this stage to start internationally. There are
few enough teams who can be considered so weak as to
think we can get by with a passenger at TH. Hayes
struggled recently enough with the likes of Samoa and Fiji.
Who exactly are you expecting us to face? Japan?For TH I'd
like Ross - MushyLH - Court (who may be considered
fortunate), Healy.

I have to agree with you, he's 2 years past it at this stage
& it's sad to see him destroyed by journeymen.
It has to be Ross, Healy as certs.
Decent chance- Horan, Court, Buckley, Wilkinson
Outside chance & dependent on injuries- Hagan, Archer.

Benji
24th-March-2011, 15:26
Even with 5 props going I wouldnt bring Hayes. If your bringing 5


Buckley


Healy


Court


Ross


Hagan or Wilkinson (Can Wilko play just Loose?)

Benji
24th-March-2011, 15:31
The jury for me is still out on Horan. He needs to get playing regularly and well. I dont think he will get enough gametime to make the plane.

Tobyglen
24th-March-2011, 15:41
The jury for me is still out on Horan. He
needs to get playing regularly and well. I dont think he will get
enough gametime to make the plane.
A good spell in the next 2 months could change things. He still
has plenty left & I wouldn't be surprised to see him go. He was
the biz against Edinburgh. Best scrummaging performance all
season by a Munster LH.

Red Hand Hero
24th-March-2011, 15:55
Hayes is two years past it and shouldn't

be playing for Munster, never mind Ireland. What he offers

in the lineout is overstated, and he's too slow and weak in

the scrum at this stage to start internationally. There are

few enough teams who can be considered so weak as to

think we can get by with a passenger at TH. Hayes

struggled recently enough with the likes of Samoa and Fiji.

Who exactly are you expecting us to face? Japan?For TH I'd

like Ross - MushyLH - Court (who may be considered

fortunate), Healy.



I have to agree with you, he's 2 years past it at this stage

&amp; it's sad to see him destroyed by journeymen.

It has to be Ross, Healy as certs.

Decent chance- Horan, Court, Buckley, Wilkinson

Outside chance &amp; dependent on injuries- Hagan, Archer</span>.

Do you honestly believe that?

To my mind he'd be behind, at a conservative guess-Andress, D.Fitzpatrick, Young,

Tony Soprano
24th-March-2011, 16:24
Court is going unless he breaks both arms and legs. There is a big gap to the rest.

Point
24th-March-2011, 17:07
Court is going unless he breaks both arms and legs. There is a big gap to the rest.


That's about the size of it alright.

tickettout
24th-March-2011, 17:43
Hayes is two years past it and shouldn't
be playing for Munster, never mind Ireland. What he offers
in the lineout is overstated, and he's too slow and weak in
the scrum at this stage to start internationally. There are
few enough teams who can be considered so weak as to
think we can get by with a passenger at TH. Hayes
struggled recently enough with the likes of Samoa and Fiji.
Who exactly are you expecting us to face? Japan?For TH I'd
like Ross - MushyLH - Court (who may be considered
fortunate), Healy.

I have to agree with you, he's 2 years past it at this stage
&amp; it's sad to see him destroyed by journeymen.
It has to be Ross, Healy as certs.
Decent chance- Horan, Court, Buckley, Wilkinson
Outside chance &amp; dependent on injuries- Hagan, Archer.

Do you honestly believe that?

To my mind he'd be behind, at a conservative guess-Andress, D.Fitzpatrick, Young,



Archersmileys/lol.gif the treviso boys put his head up his hole recently.

Consumer
24th-March-2011, 20:09
I think we need him for teams with crap scrums and amazing line outs like Australia. Mike Ross would be useless in that match. </span>




Except for the fact he could destroy their scrum?

The final TH spot is between Bull and Mushy. Hagan should be in their too but isn't for some reason...


So what? If we destroy their scrum and get destroyed in the far more important set piece of the line out we'll lose. You can't kick your way 60m up the field and win a chance to contest the ball with a scrum - you get a line out.

Not mention Australia will beat us a good few times on our own line out without Hayes, offering them a huge platform for attack as close as 5m from the tryline. But yeah, I'm sure our scrum from 5m from our tryline will offer us a huge platform for attack smileys/wink.gif

Without Hayes it'll go like this: Australia will kick to touch in our 22, we'll lose our own lineout about half the time and they'll score off about half their chances, about a 25% return on their tactical kicking.

When we win our own line outs in our 22 we'll have a choice between trying to run it out, or kicking it straight to touch. Only problem is if we kick it straight to touch from our 22 we'll lose the line out and we're trapped in the vicious circle where we can't win possession outside our 22.

Tobyglen
24th-March-2011, 20:30
Hayes is two years
past it and shouldn't
be playing for Munster, never mind Ireland. What he offers
in the lineout is overstated, and he's too slow and weak in
the scrum at this stage to start internationally. There are
few enough teams who can be considered so weak as to
think we can get by with a passenger at TH. Hayes
struggled recently enough with the likes of Samoa and Fiji.
Who exactly are you expecting us to face? Japan?For TH I'd
like Ross - MushyLH - Court (who may be considered
fortunate), Healy.

I have to agree with you, he's 2 years past it at this stage
& it's sad to see him destroyed by journeymen.
It has to be Ross, Healy as certs.
Decent chance- Horan, Court, Buckley, Wilkinson
Outside chance & dependent on injuries- Hagan, &lt;span
style="font-weight: bold; font-style:
italic;"&gt;Archer&lt;/span&gt;.Do you honestly believe
that?To my mind he'd be behind, at a conservative guess-
Andress, D.Fitzpatrick, Young,*
Outside bet. If there is injuries to Buckley & Ross you
never know. We all know how injury prone Buckley is but I
doubt it. I was only stating the contenders but Fitzpatrick
would be ahead of him aswell.

paulmul101
24th-March-2011, 21:29
i'm sorry but i just cant see Hays on the field against
Australia. It's past him, they would eat him. The tempo of
that game would be so intense if we were to have any
chance of winning. One slip up from anyone would be a loss.
Maybe maybe the last 10 minutes but...

Consumer
24th-March-2011, 21:31
i'm sorry but i just cant see Hays on the field against

Australia. It's past him, they would eat him. The tempo of

that game would be so intense if we were to have any

chance of winning. One slip up from anyone would be a loss.

Maybe maybe the last 10 minutes but...

Ross contributes nothing in the loose either. They're both set piece specialists. Ross is a scrum specialist, Hayes is a line out specialist.

Dowlinz
24th-March-2011, 22:42
i'm sorry but i just cant see Hays on the field against

Australia. It's past him, they would eat him. The tempo of

that game would be so intense if we were to have any

chance of winning. One slip up from anyone would be a loss.

Maybe maybe the last 10 minutes but...

Ross contributes nothing in the loose either. They're both set piece specialists. Ross is a scrum specialist, Hayes is a line out specialist.


This is true, Ross gets run silly in the loose with the reactions of a lethargic moose. I don't think your loosing or gaining anything there having Hayes instead. What would change is a stronger lineout and a weaker scrum.

The bottom line and why Hayes will travel, for me is this.

-&gt; Tom Court is not a TH.
-&gt; Mike Ross is s**te in the loose anyway so the biggest weakness of Hayes game is something the Irish side is dealing with already.
-&gt; Tony Buckley is just plain awful and probably not trusted at this level.
-&gt; No other TH has relevant experience for a WC.
-&gt; John Hayes got plenty of gametime in the Autumn Internationals, he was started in Munsters most important game of the season. He's still trusted for both club and country in the first team let alone as a squad player which is the very least he'll get.

What I'd be more concerned is DK has never actually "officially" dropped John Hayes yet. Imagine the faces around here if it was discovered Ross was just the temporary fill-in. smileys/razz.gif

supiebrian
25th-March-2011, 04:56
i'm sorry but i just cant see Hays on the field against
Australia. It's past him, they would eat him. The tempo of
that game would be so intense if we were to have any
chance of winning. One slip up from anyone would be a loss.
Maybe maybe the last 10 minutes but...

Ross contributes nothing in the loose either. They're both set piece specialists. Ross is a scrum specialist, Hayes is a line out specialist.


This is true, Ross gets run silly in the loose with the reactions of a lethargic moose. I don't think your loosing or gaining anything there having Hayes instead. What would change is a stronger lineout and a weaker scrum.

The bottom line and why Hayes will travel, for me is this.

-&gt; Tom Court is not a TH.
-&gt; Mike Ross is s**te in the loose anyway so the biggest weakness of Hayes game is something the Irish side is dealing with already.
-&gt; Tony Buckley is just plain awful and probably not trusted at this level.
-&gt; No other TH has relevant experience for a WC. <S&#079;NG>(No other TH has been given an opportunity,with Ross only getting his because of injury)
</S&#079;NG>-&gt; John Hayes got plenty of gametime in the Autumn Internationals, he was started in Munsters most important game of the season. He's still trusted for both club and country in the first team let alone as a squad player which is the very least he'll get.

What I'd be more concerned is DK has never actually "officially" dropped John Hayes yet. Imagine the faces around here if it was discovered Ross was just the temporary fill-in. smileys/razz.gif



I think that's what you meant to say...smileys/wink.gif

Aussiedub
25th-March-2011, 05:47
I think we need him for teams with crap scrums and amazing line outs like Australia. Mike Ross would be useless in that match.




Except for the fact he could destroy their scrum?

The final TH spot is between Bull and Mushy. Hagan should be in their too but isn't for some reason...


So what? If we destroy their scrum and get destroyed in the far more important set piece of the line out we'll lose. You can't kick your way 60m up the field and win a chance to contest the ball with a scrum - you get a line out.

Not mention Australia will beat us a good few times on our own line out without Hayes, offering them a huge platform for attack as close as 5m from the tryline. But yeah, I'm sure our scrum from 5m from our tryline will offer us a huge platform for attack smileys/wink.gif

Without Hayes it'll go like this: Australia will kick to touch in our 22, we'll lose our own lineout about half the time and they'll score off about half their chances, about a 25% return on their tactical kicking.

When we win our own line outs in our 22 we'll have a choice between trying to run it out, or kicking it straight to touch. Only problem is if we kick it straight to touch from our 22 we'll lose the line out and we're trapped in the vicious circle where we can't win possession outside our 22.



So since when have Australia had such a dominant lineout???


We will win a lot of penalties with Ross at tighthead which will lead to penalties and points. We will disrupt their ball to ensure they can't attack as easily off the back of the scrum also.


If you believe that the lineout is the dominant set piece how come Munster have struggled because their scrum is so weak but hteir lineout is strong??

Jackdaniels
25th-March-2011, 07:51
Hayes is two years past it and shouldn't be playing for Munster, never mind Ireland. <S&#079;NG><S&#079;NG>What he offers in the lineout is overstated</S&#079;NG>, and he's too slow and weak in the</S&#079;NG> scrum at this stage to start internationally.

There are few enough teams who can be considered so weak as to think we can get by with a passenger at TH. Hayes struggled recently enough with the likes of Samoa and Fiji. Who exactly are you expecting us to face? Japan?

For TH I'd like Ross - Mushy
LH - Court (who may be considered fortunate), Healy.



+1


Very overstated. Sorry, but this is one ligind that has to be put out to pasture. A national treasure.

Lemmy
25th-March-2011, 08:23
I think Hayes will go to the World Cup.


His contract would not have been renewed otherwise methinks?

bugler
25th-March-2011, 08:46
The old "the lineout is more important than the scrum" s**te is only true up to a point. You don't concede penalties from having a poor lineout. How bad the Munster and Irish scrum has been still seems lost on some people.

If it's true Ross ran out of steam against England then it's worrying. These guys have conditioning coaches for province and country, why aren't they conditioned? For Ross to be the answer he needs to have 70 minutes minimum </span>in him.

The 'bottom line' is that Hayes is a sad shadow of his former self, unable to lock a scrum and looking slower every game (and he was never quick to begin with). It seems even his provincial coach has come to the same conclusion by now.

bugler
25th-March-2011, 08:47
I think Hayes will go to the World Cup.


His contract would not have been renewed otherwise methinks?

His contract was renewed some time ago, before he fell apart as a player.

If the IRFU want to take the public sector approach then yes, they should take him to the WC. Because he's contracted.

Dowlinz
25th-March-2011, 10:18
I'm not disputing the weakness of Hayes game right now but I'm asking what the alternative is.

- I don't think its likely DK will call a newcomer into the fold at this stage, the chance for that is gone.
- I don't think Court is a better TH option than Hayes, I think he simply can't play there.
- Buckley is having a dreadful season and has a very poor scrummaging technique. Not to mention him leaving for England next season which may count against him if he was even in the frame to begin with.

Hayes has had a lot of rest lately and has the mother of all experience. Maybe he can pull something special out for a few games.

If I was in the position of needing someone to see off a game with 10/15 minutes to go or heaven forbid Ross got injured while it being far from ideal I still see Hayes as the best option. Purely because of the utter crap the alternatives are.

John123
25th-March-2011, 10:37
Considering Hayes can't make the squad for the Cardiff game tonight, I think he's a long shot for the World Cup now. Beyond that, Bull can't tackle anyone anymore unless they run into him, it's beyond a joke and McGahan seems to have realised that.

It's hilarious that people think our lineout can't function without Hayes, did ye miss the 100% performance last weekend against what would be classed a world class lineout?

Dowlinz
25th-March-2011, 10:56
Beyond that, Bull can't tackle anyone anymore unless they run into him



Is Ross any better?

Jackdaniels
25th-March-2011, 11:42
Dowlinz, sorry man but you seem to me to be a little on the biased side more than the reasonable side here........


Bull owes us nothing, and he will always be a true legend. But he is a liability at this stage. His scrummaging is poor, his line out lifting is not as vital or even close to it as its made out to be, he cant run, he cant tackle......he is as useful to us now as a sack of gone off spuds.


Thats just the hard reality of it. Your whole argument is based on a maybe...ie "Maybe he can pull something special out for a few games"


Maybe he cant, but more than likely......maybe he cant.....

parnell333
25th-March-2011, 11:43
Beyond that, Bull can't tackle anyone anymore unless they run into him


Is Ross any better?



According to scrum.com stats Ross missed one tackle (against Scotland) during the entire 6N. So I'd say the answer to your question is "Considerably". I also remember he made one superb rip - I think it was against France - so I rate the guy pretty highly - he'll never be Healy in the loose but he does his primary job better than any tighthead Ireland have had in a long time IMHO (of course).

Jackdaniels
25th-March-2011, 12:00
Beyond that, Bull can't tackle anyone anymore unless they run into him


Is Ross any better?



According to scrum.com stats Ross missed one tackle (against Scotland) during the entire 6N. So I'd say the answer to your question is "Considerably". I also remember he made one superb rip - I think it was against France - so I rate the guy pretty highly - he'll never be Healy in the loose but he does his primary job better than any tighthead Ireland have had in a long time IMHO (of course).





Shame about his new 2 yr contract with Leinster smileys/sad.gif

Dowlinz
25th-March-2011, 15:50
Dowlinz, sorry man but you seem to me to be a little on the biased side more than the reasonable side here........


Bull owes us nothing, and he will always be a true legend. But he is a liability at this stage. His scrummaging is poor, his line out lifting is not as vital or even close to it as its made out to be, he cant run, he cant tackle......he is as useful to us now as a sack of gone off spuds.




I'm actually not disputing this. But personally I think a sack of gone off spuds are more capable than Buckley or Court at TH. smileys/lol.gif




People are quick to put down bull and rightfully so but has Buckley or Court (playing TH) shown anything remotely promising at any level in recent times?