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Dowlinz
27th-February-2011, 14:46
It feels like the choice is clear now.

Dave Cahill
27th-February-2011, 14:47
Yep, ROGs 100% failure rate from penalties leave the way
clear for Sexton, perhaps Keatley to the bench.

kermit
27th-February-2011, 14:49
smileys/lol.gif

sewa
27th-February-2011, 14:49
Cahill simply can't help making himself look silly. Sexton's a busted flush

banjaxed
27th-February-2011, 14:49
Sssssssh thats O connors spot

Ruck
27th-February-2011, 14:50
20 pages

RED 49
27th-February-2011, 14:51
Ignore ignore

sewa
27th-February-2011, 14:52
Not selecting ROG against France has cost us a decent chance of a grand slam decideragainst England at home.

Tobyglen
27th-February-2011, 14:53
It's sound asleep now so don't wake it up.

Tobyglen
27th-February-2011, 14:53
Not selecting ROG against France has cost us a decent chance of a grand slam decideragainst England at home.
No doubt.

Thomond78
27th-February-2011, 14:56
It was noticeable that instead of lying flat, Sexton was
actually running backwards to take the ball deeper. It was
pretty bloody amazing.

lactose intolerant
27th-February-2011, 14:56
time to have a look at Warwick for Ireland?

The Outlaw
27th-February-2011, 14:57
Comedy debate with a team in complete crisis. Do people
here care about Ireland as a team or just the number 10?

Tobyglen
27th-February-2011, 14:59
Comedy debate with a team in complete crisis. Do people

here care about Ireland as a team or just the number 10?
10 is the pivotal position so it deserves debate.

sewa
27th-February-2011, 15:00
Sexton is 26 years of age. When will he be ready to run the big games?

Dave Cahill
27th-February-2011, 15:01
Comedy debate with a team in
complete crisis. Do people
here care about Ireland as a team or just the number 10?

They just care about the number 10.

They don't see that none of the set pieces are functioning
properly, that none of the units are working well together,
or even balanced, they don't see that there is no
discernable game plan (run the ball against a poor lineout,
kick it against a good one?), and of course they don't see
that whether its Sexton or O'Gara, O'Leary; Reddan or
Stringer; or DOC or Cullen, that its the one man that has
put them on the pitch in this state.

The Word Is Born
27th-February-2011, 15:02
time to have a look at Warwick for Ireland?


Nah, Mafi in for D'Arcy. I think Mafi might be qualified now.

Thomond78
27th-February-2011, 15:04
Dave, come off it. The scrum was fine today, genuinely
dominant. And it was the same for both. Yet, somehow,
you're not allowed criticise Sexton for taking terrible
options, all the time.

Hook is, justifiably, going mental at this. Apparently, saying
Sexton is playing badly is a "personal attack" and somehow
it's not his fault because he only has 14 caps - and Hook
rightly points out that this is balls.

To put it in context - at the same experience, and a
younger age, O'Gara was a Lion. And didn't make those
dumb-ass decisions.

Thomond78
27th-February-2011, 15:06
Comedy
debate with a team in
complete crisis. Do people
here care about Ireland as a team or just the number 10?

They just care about the number 10.

They don't see that none of the set pieces are functioning
properly, that none of the units are working well together,
or even balanced, they don't see that there is no
discernable game plan (run the ball against a poor lineout,
kick it against a good one?), and of course they don't see
that whether its Sexton or O'Gara, O'Leary; Reddan or
Stringer; or DOC or Cullen, that its the one man that has
put them on the pitch in this state.

Actually, to deal with this in more detail; you saw what
happened when O'Brien went to open, and Sexton to ten.
We went to s**t. Yet, you're allowed complain when Kidney
doesn't pick them there, and, somehow, when they DO play
there, it's all Kidney's fault that they're not up to it there.

The buck, sooner or later, has to stop with the players as
well.

sewa
27th-February-2011, 15:07
Running it inside your own half has a time and a place. Every rugby fan here was thinking the same thing when Sexton decided to run it. Anyone who says otherwise is lying

The Outlaw
27th-February-2011, 15:08
Comedy
debate with a team in
complete crisis. Do people
here care about Ireland as a team or just the number 10?

They just care about the number 10.

They don't see that none of the set pieces are functioning
properly, that none of the units are working well together,
or even balanced, they don't see that there is no
discernable game plan (run the ball against a poor lineout,
kick it against a good one?), and of course they don't see
that whether its Sexton or O'Gara, O'Leary; Reddan or
Stringer; or DOC or Cullen, that its the one man that has
put them on the pitch in this state.

Precisely Dave. Its utterly pathetic. An absolute numbskull
can see we have no unit functioning as a whole at present.
At this stage its not about the 10-its about the coaching
staff.

Dave Cahill
27th-February-2011, 15:09
Comedy
debate with a team in
complete crisis. Do people
here care about Ireland as a team or just the number 10?

They just care about the number 10.

They don't see that none of the set pieces are functioning
properly, that none of the units are working well together,
or even balanced, they don't see that there is no
discernable game plan (run the ball against a poor lineout,
kick it against a good one?), and of course they don't see
that whether its Sexton or O'Gara, O'Leary; Reddan or
Stringer; or DOC or Cullen, that its the one man that has
put them on the pitch in this state.

Actually, to deal with this in more detail; you saw what
happened when O'Brien went to open, and Sexton to ten.
We went to s**t. Yet, you're allowed complain when Kidney
doesn't pick them there, and, somehow, when they DO play
there, it's all Kidney's fault that they're not up to it there.

The buck, sooner or later, has to stop with the players as
well.

Did they decide to do that all on their ownio? Did Sexton
fake kidneys voice over the radio to get himself sent on?
Did the backrows decide to switch sides off their own bat?

Tobyglen
27th-February-2011, 15:10
smileys/lol.gif Last week players on too late...this week players on to early.

Basic skills are whats wrong. Cronin/Best can't throw into the lineout & no amount of coaching seems to be able to change this, we also have no number 12.

Thomond78
27th-February-2011, 15:10
Running it inside your own half has a time
and a place. Every rugby fan here was thinking the same
thing when Sexton decided to run it. Anyone who says
otherwise is lying

Or doesn't want to admit the obvious.

sewa
27th-February-2011, 15:11
Making excuses and deflecting from the facts. Standard debating tehcniques.They arent fooling anyone.Sexton isnt up to this level.

sewa
27th-February-2011, 15:13
Running it inside your own half has a time
and a place. Every rugby fan here was thinking the same
thing when Sexton decided to run it. Anyone who says
otherwise is lying

Or doesn't want to admit the obvious.


Correct about the the third option. DC hasn't posted here in ages but he rushed to Munsterfans to defend the indefensible

Thomond78
27th-February-2011, 15:13
Comedy
debate with a team in
complete crisis. Do people
here care about Ireland as a team or just the number 10?

They just care about the number 10.

They don't see that none of the set pieces are functioning
properly, that none of the units are working well together,
or even balanced, they don't see that there is no
discernable game plan (run the ball against a poor lineout,
kick it against a good one?), and of course they don't see
that whether its Sexton or O'Gara, O'Leary; Reddan or
Stringer; or DOC or Cullen, that its the one man that has
put them on the pitch in this state.

Actually, to deal with this in more detail; you saw what
happened when O'Brien went to open, and Sexton to ten.
We went to s**t. Yet, you're allowed complain when Kidney
doesn't pick them there, and, somehow, when they DO play
there, it's all Kidney's fault that they're not up to it there.

The buck, sooner or later, has to stop with the players as
well.

Did they decide to do that all on their ownio? Did Sexton
fake kidneys voice over the radio to get himself sent on?
Did the backrows decide to switch sides off their own bat?


Well, yes, Dave. In Sexton's case, he did. ROG showed,
clearly, that tactical kicking is fine and that we were to play
it flat. Sexton came on and ran it from inside his own half,
under pressure, running back to lie deeper.

That's the choice of the player, not the coach.

The Outlaw
27th-February-2011, 15:14
Comedy
debate with a team in
complete crisis. Do people
here care about Ireland as a team or just the number 10?

They just care about the number 10.

They don't see that none of the set pieces are functioning
properly, that none of the units are working well together,
or even balanced, they don't see that there is no
discernable game plan (run the ball against a poor lineout,
kick it against a good one?), and of course they don't see
that whether its Sexton or O'Gara, O'Leary; Reddan or
Stringer; or DOC or Cullen, that its the one man that has
put them on the pitch in this state.

Actually, to deal with this in more detail; you saw what
happened when O'Brien went to open, and Sexton to ten.
We went to s**t. Yet, you're allowed complain when Kidney
doesn't pick them there, and, somehow, when they DO
play
there, it's all Kidney's fault that they're not up to it there.

The buck, sooner or later, has to stop with the players as
well.

Did they decide to do that all on their ownio? Did Sexton
fake kidneys voice over the radio to get himself sent on?
Did the backrows decide to switch sides off their own bat?


Well, yes, Dave. In Sexton's case, he did. ROG showed,
clearly, that tactical kicking is fine and that we were to play
it flat. Sexton came on and ran it from inside his own half,
under pressure, running back to lie deeper.

That's the choice of the player, not the coach.

The coach is responsible for the gameplan. When we
havent got one- the buck stops with him.

Tobyglen
27th-February-2011, 15:16
Jesus your like a bunch of old women. G'way & get some fresh air because there no pleasing some.
Scotland is notoriously hard to go to & win.

Old Dog
27th-February-2011, 15:17
I'd be delighted to see Sexton - and the remainder of the Leinster boys - dropped from Kidney's squad. Confidence and skills are draining from that team at a rate of knots under Kidney's appalling cute hoor "man management" regime and the sooner that our chaps can get back to a more cerebral, skills-based coaching environment, the better for Leinster. Leave the dullards (Leamy & co) to Kidney - it's glaringly obvious that his remedial teaching skills are best deployed with such players.

Thomond78
27th-February-2011, 15:17
And the game-plan, Outlaw was; lie flat, and work the
corners when it's on. That's what ROG did.

Yet, when Sexton came on, he ran BACKWARDS to lie
deeper and ran idiot ball from inside his own ten.

We saw, beyond question, that what Sexton has been doing
isn't the game plan - ROG ran a lovely running game, ran
to score a try himself and mixed it up beautifully - it's what
Sexton does himself under pressure. Run, and hope; or
loop, and hope by the time you get it back that you can see
the option.

Test rugby is faster, and the pressure higher. And Sexton's
decision-making is wilting under that extra speed and extra
pressure.

It's not the game-plan. It's the individual. Hopefully he'll
learn. But right now, he's a problem.

Hawkeye
27th-February-2011, 15:19
Firstly, to the Lenistergals who have moaned about ROG day in day out on this forum today was a pure masterclass by our 10. Why Sexton was brought on at a crucial stage I simply do not know. And lets face it when he did come on he was like a headless chicken when it came to directing the game. Nearly cost us the match. Sexton, as I have said here on many occasions is a fine player buthe is not close to Test status.

Thomond78
27th-February-2011, 15:20
*


I'd be delighted to see Sexton - and the remainder of
the Leinster boys - dropped from Kidney's squad.
Confidence and skills are draining from that team at a rate
of knots under Kidney's appalling cute hoor "man
management" regime and the sooner that our chaps can
get back to a more cerebral, skills-based coaching
environment, the better for Leinster.** Leave the dullards to
Kidney - it's glaringly obvious that his remedial teaching
skills are best deployed with such players.


*

smileys/shock.gif

Agent DK, you may be blown. I repeat, your cover may be
blown. Be advised!

Dave Cahill
27th-February-2011, 15:21
Well, yes, Dave. In Sexton's case, he did. ROG showed,
clearly, that tactical kicking is fine and that we were to play
it flat. Sexton came on and ran it from inside his own half,
under pressure, running back to lie deeper.

That's the choice of the player, not the coach.

Yeah, that didn't happen, he kicked 50% of his
possessions.

But again, you bring it back to one man vs another to avoid
the actual problem.

Old Dog
27th-February-2011, 15:26
I'd be delighted to see Sexton - and the remainder of
the Leinster boys - dropped from Kidney's squad.
Confidence and skills are draining from that team at a rate
of knots under Kidney's appalling cute hoor "man
management" regime and the sooner that our chaps can
get back to a more cerebral, skills-based coaching
environment, the better for Leinster. Leave the dullards to
Kidney - it's glaringly obvious that his remedial teaching
skills are best deployed with such players.




smileys/shock.gif

Agent DK, you may be blown. I repeat, your cover may be
blown. Be advised!


smileys/biggrin.gif


But DK isn't capable of using a PC. He's still excited by the potential of leading-edge educational aids like whiteboards and coloured markers.

Thomond78
27th-February-2011, 15:26
No, Dave. I'm pointing out the truth of what happened, which
you don't want to face.

cud_
27th-February-2011, 15:28
Sexton is 26 years of age. When will he be
ready to run the big games?

He's 25 actually. The other person to claim he was 26 was
today was George Hook. Fitting that the two of you should be
bracketed together.

Benji
27th-February-2011, 15:29
For some people here it's all about rog and sexton. The team wer
letting it slip before sexton came on. Scotland always drag usinto a
slugfest. When we were onto during the first half we didn't score
enough. Is sexton to blame all the knock on's poor lineouts andstupid
penalties.
Would have thought sexton coming on wasn't needed but judging by
this thread you would think he nearly handed game to scots himself.

Some people on here get a harden when they see thes rog sexton
debates. The team as a whole nearly lost it.
For those that say we would be going for the grand slam if rog
played. Against France that's bull sxxxte. It's never won anything.
Again I would have left rog on but there were more players making
mistakes than sexton.

The Outlaw
27th-February-2011, 15:31
No, Dave. I'm pointing out the truth of
what happened, which
you don't want to face.

Youre avoiding the debate. The game had turned before
Sexton had entered the pitch.

Luimneach
27th-February-2011, 15:37
Comedy debate with a team in

complete crisis. Do people

here care about Ireland as a team or just the number 10?



They just care about the number 10.



They don't see that none of the set pieces are functioning

properly, that none of the units are working well together,

or even balanced, they don't see that there is no

discernable game plan (run the ball against a poor lineout,

kick it against a good one?), and of course they don't see

that whether its Sexton or O'Gara, O'Leary; Reddan or

Stringer; or DOC or Cullen, that its the one man that has

put them on the pitch in this state.
Think we can add Cullen to this debate what is he doing in the 22 with Micko sitting at home in Cork or wherever nonsense. I think 34 years of age is a bit old to be starting an international career. I would have Donacha Ryan before him at least there is a chance of a future there good job Nagle is on the Horizon .

tickettout
27th-February-2011, 15:41
Not selecting ROG against France has cost us a decent chance of a grand slam decideragainst England at home.


Nail. Head.


I'm a big fan of Sexton but with two non performing centres outside him, the running game is the wrong tactic for this team currently.


Time to reappraise BOD's selection again imo, certainly at 13. Solid defensively but offering nothing in attack and certainly not bringing the back three into the game. Tindall gets huge criticism for similar efforts.

The Outlaw
27th-February-2011, 15:42
Comedy
debate with a team in
complete crisis. Do people
here care about Ireland as a team or just the number 10?

They just care about the number 10.

They don't see that none of the set pieces are functioning
properly, that none of the units are working well together,
or even balanced, they don't see that there is no
discernable game plan (run the ball against a poor lineout,
kick it against a good one?), and of course they don't see
that whether its Sexton or O'Gara, O'Leary; Reddan or
Stringer; or DOC or Cullen, that its the one man that has
put them on the pitch in this state.Think we can
add Cullen to this debate what is he doing in the 22 with
Micko sitting at home in Cork or wherever nonsense. I
think* 34 years of age is a bit old to be starting an
international career. I would have Donacha Ryan* before
him at least there is a chance of a future there* good job
Nagle is on the Horizon .

Thought Cullen was about the sub who managed anything
constructive.
The real elephant in the room is how Darcy lasted 80mins.
If Kidney has no faith in wallace- could he not give Mc
Fadden a run at 12?

tickettout
27th-February-2011, 15:43
No, Dave. I'm pointing out the truth of
what happened, which
you don't want to face.

Youre avoiding the debate. The game had turned before
Sexton had entered the pitch.


He chose to run at times when we needed to kick, it was reminiscent of the French game.

The Outlaw
27th-February-2011, 15:46
No, Dave. I'm pointing out the truth
of what happened, which you don't want to face.
Youre avoiding the debate. The game had turned before
Sexton had entered the pitch.


He chose to run at times when we needed to kick, it was
reminiscent of the French game.


*

The changes in the back-row nearly cost us the game. We
have 2 hookers who cant throw. We have one lineout
option in POC. We have a winger at 15. Another winger
who doesn't know how to step off his wing. A non-
performing 12.
And in my view we havent a 9 anywhere to be seen.

Hugonaut
27th-February-2011, 15:47
ROG played really, really well - I think the debate is more on than ever, rather than finished. With that said, his performance today would point to him having the upper hand at the moment.

His try was a little beaut, a quality fend on a Lions hooker and an outside break ... didn't think he still had it in him. I could have done without the extra dressage on Patterson, almost sent me into cardiac arrest!

Personally I think the amount of time spent discussing the Sexton/ROG thing is a bit of a phony war. Certain Cork-based commentators [Hook and Lenihan] are making a case for their man at the expense of t'other fella. While it's a divisive issue, I don't think it's the most important one by any stretch.

There's a massive elephant in the room, namely the amount of penalties we give away at the breakdown. Saying that changing one player for another is the difference somehow ignores the fact that we have - what, six, seven? – players giving away penalties at the breakdown because they're competing for ball in the wrong part of the pitch.

Kidney's interview afterwards was again revealing – "we make no apologies for competing for the ball at the breakdown" </span>. When we have essentially lost against France and almost thrown away a game against a brutally poor Scottish team on the back of penalties conceded at the breakdown, it has a huge, huge element of the "everybody's marching out of time except me" school of thought.

I feel that the new interpretations are far too lenient on the attacking side, and I've no doubt that a lot of people feel that. The leeway afforded to the tackled player to squirm around, hold on to the ball, get back up on his feet is incredible compared to how strictly the tackler is policed. In my opinion, it's a perversion of the law, but with that said it's how the game is being reffed at the moment.

We're playing it like it's not reffed like that, which is mind-blowingly naive. We're playing it like we know that we're fundamentally right, and that if we showed a video to the ref afterwards, he'd agree with us ... all the while we're getting pinged off the face of the earth.

The fact is, if we're giving away 18 points a game – 18 f*cking points!</span> – from penalties at the breakdown, then we've got to stop competing that way. It's clearly not worth it. To be frank, Kidney should start apologising for competing at the breakdown, it's absolutely f*cking killing us.

My advice/solution/whatever would be simple: don't compete for the ball on the ground with your hands in your own half, bar defending your tryline.

That's a rule of thumb, so obviously you could poke holes in it, but in general, just don't compete for ball on the deck with your hands. Smash their lads out of it, drag and fall-off with them, just don't try and scrabble for it. It's absolutely killing us. It's not just the points either, it's the momentum.

DABOSS
27th-February-2011, 15:51
If we were to play Argetine tomorrow in the quarter of the worl cup who would you want to start





P.S. Cullen should start

tickettout
27th-February-2011, 15:53
No, Dave. I'm pointing out the truth
of what happened, which you don't want to face.
Youre avoiding the debate. The game had turned before
Sexton had entered the pitch.



He chose to run at times when we needed to kick, it was
reminiscent of the French game.








The changes in the back-row nearly cost us the game. We
have 2 hookers who cant throw. We have one lineout
option in POC. We have a winger at 15. Another winger
who doesn't know how to step off his wing. A non-
performing 12.
And in my view we havent a 9 anywhere to be seen.


We badly need Flannery back. Best just floats them in, awful to watch and Cronins throwing is even worse again.


I disagree about the 'winger', Earls had a fine game today much more so than Bowe.


Darcy can't offload and BOD has started to run sideways and kick again.

JoeyFantastic
27th-February-2011, 16:02
Whatever about Sexton, does d'Arcy intend to stop being an
empty jersey any time soon? How he gets away with minimal
criticism is beyond me, the guy promises so much only to
deliver so little.

Mickc10
27th-February-2011, 16:04
As pointed out by a couple now, if Rog started against the
French we wouldn't be talking about a team in crisis but a
team that got the job done today (just) who are still on course
for a Grand-Slam... Simples..

The Outlaw
27th-February-2011, 16:05
No, Dave.
I'm pointing out the truth of what happened, which you
don't want to face. Youre avoiding the debate.
The game had turned before Sexton had entered the pitch.



He chose to run at times when we needed to kick, it was
reminiscent of the French game.


*


The changes in the back-row nearly cost us
the game. We have 2 hookers who cant throw. We have
one lineout option in POC. We have a winger at 15. Another
winger who doesn't know how to step off his wing. A non-
performing 12. And in my view we havent a 9 anywhere to
be seen.


We badly need Flannery back. Best just floats them in,
awful to watch and Cronins throwing is even worse again.



I disagree about the 'winger', Earls had a fine game
today much more so than Bowe.


Darcy can't offload and BOD has started to run sideways
and kick again.


*

earls infuriates me at times because he wont step off his
wing close to the touchline. He was the best of the back 3
today.

jeepers
27th-February-2011, 16:06
Personally I think the amount of time spent discussing the Sexton/ROG thing is a bit of a phony war. Certain Cork-based commentators [Hook and Lenihan] are making a case for their man at the expense of t'other fella. While it's a divisive issue, I don't think it's the most important one by any stretch.



Hook isn't based in Cork (and hasn't been for about 50 years)! I think Hook has taken up this angle because Pope &amp; Ward (both St. Mary's men) &amp; O'Shea have been in Sexton's corner since he came on the scene and are forever making excuses for him.

Mind you, I think even Ward was coming around to O'Gara starting last week.

oilean
27th-February-2011, 16:08
Darcy must be replaced Would question leadership by O
Driscoll today Why did he tell ROG to kick at goal(clearly too
far out against the breeze) with over 2 mins to go to half
time? Earls tried hard
Would have preferred to see ROG ground the ball earlier for
the try? No need to showboat for under the post!!
Mc Fadden deserves to be at least on the bench
Any sign of Flannery getting back at all? Someone please say
YES!!!!

Hugonaut
27th-February-2011, 16:08
As pointed out by a couple now, if Rog started against the

French we wouldn't be talking about a team in crisis but a

team that got the job done today (just) who are still on course

for a Grand-Slam... Simples..

We still would have given away the dozen penalties or so that lost us the match against France. ROG starting [and he was great today] isn't the biggest issue we need to address.

jeepers
27th-February-2011, 16:10
As pointed out by a couple now, if Rog started against the

French we wouldn't be talking about a team in crisis but a

team that got the job done today (just) who are still on course

for a Grand-Slam... Simples..

We still would have given away the dozen penalties or so that lost us the match against France. ROG starting [and he was great today] isn't the biggest issue we need to address.


If ROG started, the penalties would be given away in the French half, not ours which would have been something.

tickettout
27th-February-2011, 16:11
If Flannery can stand up straight then he has to start in future!

Hugonaut
27th-February-2011, 16:13
Personally I think the amount of time spent discussing the Sexton/ROG thing is a bit of a phony war. Certain Cork-based commentators [Hook and Lenihan] are making a case for their man at the expense of t'other fella. While it's a divisive issue, I don't think it's the most important one by any stretch.



Hook isn't based in Cork (and hasn't been for about 50 years)! I think Hook has taken up this angle because Pope &amp; Ward (both St. Mary's men) &amp; O'Shea have been in Sexton's corner since he came on the scene and are forever making excuses for him.

Mind you, I think even Ward was coming around to O'Gara starting last week.




That's a very fair point about Pope being Mary's – funny how you sort of let that stuff slide [or genuinely don't notice it] when it's your guy they're promoting.

You're right about Hook as well, although he is unabashedly a Corkman; I phrased that very badly.

I genuinely don't think it's as match defining as people are making it out to be, though. The issue that is far more glaring – in my opinion – is our insane penalty count at the breakdown and our inability to change stupid habits that other countries have long ago left behind.

Think about France defending their line before Heaslip's try for 25 phases without conceding a penalty. Think how cleanly, cleverly and ferociously the English defended against France yesterday throughout the second half.

Dowlinz
27th-February-2011, 16:15
I don't think many people are obsessive about the 10 debate, no moreso than they are about the 9 starter. Mostly because we have great choice in those positions and they're more pivotal positions than most.

People are being a bit overdramatic about our performance too. If we cut out those error rates and didn't become a shambling mess with so many poor substitutions I think our performance today was pretty good.
We lost the French game and nearly lost this game because of a high error rate pure and simple. We're creating chances and being clinical in taking them which is really positive. Though those extra 6 or 7 unnecessary penalties is the difference between being a team in crisis and a team favourite to win the grand slam it would seem.

tickettout
27th-February-2011, 16:17
Personally I think the amount of time spent discussing the Sexton/ROG thing is a bit of a phony war. Certain Cork-based commentators [Hook and Lenihan] are making a case for their man at the expense of t'other fella. While it's a divisive issue, I don't think it's the most important one by any stretch.


Hook isn't based in Cork (and hasn't been for about 50 years)! I think Hook has taken up this angle because Pope &amp; Ward (both St. Mary's men) &amp; O'Shea have been in Sexton's corner since he came on the scene and are forever making excuses for him.

Mind you, I think even Ward was coming around to O'Gara starting last week.




That's a very fair point about Pope being Mary's – funny how you sort of let that stuff slide [or genuinely don't notice it] when it's your guy they're promoting.

You're right about Hook as well, although he is unabashedly a Corkman; I phrased that very badly.

I genuinely don't think it's as match defining as people are making it out to be, though. The issue that is far more glaring – in my opinion – is our insane penalty count at the breakdown and our inability to change stupid habits that other countries have long ago left behind.

Think about France defending their line before Heaslip's try for 25 phases without conceding a penalty. Think how cleanly, cleverly and ferociously the English defended against France yesterday throughout the second half.



Heaslip gave away two very silly penalties, neither was worse than Rory Best's one 30m out straight infront of the posts.


Turnovers can now realistically only beachieved by rucking over the ball - POC did it earlyin the second half.

Hugonaut
27th-February-2011, 16:17
As pointed out by a couple now, if Rog started against the

French we wouldn't be talking about a team in crisis but a

team that got the job done today (just) who are still on course

for a Grand-Slam... Simples..

We still would have given away the dozen penalties or so that lost us the match against France. ROG starting [and he was great today] isn't the biggest issue we need to address.


If ROG started, the penalties would be given away in the French half, not ours which would have been something.



That's a fair point as well.

If you recall, though, a lot of the penalties against France were just inside our half, or certainly between our ten and the halfway line. I don't think there's any problem trying to play football there.

Scotland are a f*cking woejous team. Terrible. Kicking the ball to France – or into touch for a French lineout – is a different matter. Gives them a lot of possession, and they have a good lineout to utilise it. It's still a valid point though.

The Outlaw
27th-February-2011, 16:23
Personally I think the
amount of time spent discussing the Sexton/ROG thing is a
bit of a phony war. Certain Cork-based commentators
[Hook and Lenihan] are making a case for their man at the
expense of t'other fella. While it's a divisive issue, I don't
think it's the most important one by any stretch.
Hook isn't based in Cork (and hasn't been for
about 50 years)! I think Hook has taken up this angle
because Pope & Ward (both St. Mary's men) & O'Shea
have been in Sexton's corner since he came on the scene
and are forever making excuses for him.Mind you, I think
even Ward was coming around to O'Gara starting last
week.That's a very fair point about Pope being
Mary's – funny how you sort of let that stuff slide [or
genuinely don't notice it] when it's your guy they're
promoting.You're right about Hook as well, although he is
unabashedly a Corkman; I phrased that very badly. I
genuinely don't think it's as match defining as people are
making it out to be, though. The issue that is far more
glaring – in my opinion – is our insane penalty count at the
breakdown and our inability to change stupid habits that
other countries have long ago left behind. Think about
France defending their line before Heaslip's try for 25
phases without conceding a penalty. Think how cleanly,
cleverly and ferociously the English defended against
France yesterday throughout the second half.



Heaslip gave away two very silly penalties, neither was
worse than Rory Best's one 30m out straight infront of the
posts.


Turnovers can now realistically only be*achieved by
rucking over the ball - POC did it early*in the second half.


England gave a masterclass in it yesterday TT.

POC again just massive today. Again no impact from his
partner.

Hugonaut
27th-February-2011, 16:27
Heaslip gave away two very silly penalties, neither was worse than Rory Best's one 30m out straight infront of the posts.


Turnovers can now realistically only beachieved by rucking over the ball - POC did it earlyin the second half.

Easier to count who didn't</span> give away penalties today than who did, TicketTout. It's not a provincial p¡ssing match, it's just infuriating.

Many of the penalties were just absolutely stupid, although I felt that Owens did decide after about 20 mins that he was just going to ref us. The Sweaties were offside in the backline all day and there were some extremely </span>dodgy penalties/non-calls near their tryline.

joconnell
27th-February-2011, 16:47
Heaslip gave away two very silly penalties, neither was worse than Rory Best's one 30m out straight infront of the posts.

Oddly enough if it's the one I'm thinking of he was penalised for not releasing the tackled played even though he wasn't actually the tackler - Heaslip brought the scot down and best went in over him. Nigel got that one wrong.

The Sexton vs Rog debate is blown up far out of proportion too - it seems to take on a lot of a leinster / munster debate and even more so a country vs supposed snotty D4 head debate which again is pretty non-constructive. It also seems to represent and old vs new style of playing which Conor and Brent have latched on to. It's suicide to give away possession to a good counter attacking team unless you can squeeze them in the line out and unfortunately we can't right now.

I'm hoping there's some grand master plan in place but I'm really not sensing it right now. And Rog should have done an ashton after he beat patterson.

Pixie
27th-February-2011, 17:25
Keith wood in the Telegraph..



<UL style="MARGIN-TOP: 0in; unicode-bidi: ; DIRECTI&#079;N: l; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 0.02in">
Ireland v Scotland: too much is made of the Ronan O'Gara v Johnny Sexton battle
I love the battles of the Six Nations. Year after year we see the ebb and flow of talent, effort and self-belief.

In control: Ronan O'Gara brings an astute awareness and a calming influence to the game
By Keith Wood 11:00PM GMT 26 Feb 2011
2 Comments
We see the emergence of new players and get to watch how they cope within the white-hot pressure of this venerable championship.
We see great one-on-one battles; some that are worth the price of entrance alone and some that last for years.
This Sunday’s game is a battle of the out-halves, but strangely, in Ireland, it is not the veteran Ronan O’Gara versus the Scotland newcomer Ruaridh Jackson that is stoking the flames.
We are again at one of those polarising eternal out-half debates that seem to plague Ireland. Tony Ward-Ollie Campbell, David Humphreys-O’Gara and now O’Gara-Johnny Sexton.
For the last two it seems to be less about each player’s ability and more about where they come from. Many great things have come about due to the Irish provincial system but the elevated partisanship between Leinster and Munster is not one of them.
Support of the Irish team has taken on a more one-eyed view, more accurately, either a blue or red one.
So coming out for O’Gara is a poke in the eye to Leinster and picking Sexton is the death knell to the lads from the south. Not only does it not need to be like this, it shouldn’t be like this. When it concerns the international team, to hell with the provinces!
There is no divine right for any player to be picked. Nor, as was described to me by a disgruntled Leinster fan, was Kidney just picking one of his own. On his head lies this and every selection decision.
I think he has got it right this time and that is no sleight on Sexton. He burst on the scene with a hard running game, a bigger presence in defence, and a self-assurance that is a hallmark of a newcomer with talent.
This has been blunted somewhat by the constant pressure of the international arena.
Teams don’t leave as many gaps in international rugby, or more pertinently, the teams where he has not excelled against, have not.
South Africa, Italy and the strangely conservative France of the last round did not try to do anything with the ball. Nothing, no attacking ploys, no risks and no errors.
They booted the ball back and trusted their defence. Ireland want to play a constant-tempo bal

27th-February-2011, 17:32
If Flannery can stand up straight then
he has to start in future!

This is the problem though, he's been started the second he
can stand up and he's broken down again. I also find it
laughable that in the middle of discussion around all the
senseless penalties we give away people want to see the
penalty machine that is Jerry Flannery back again asap.

Cpt_Munster
27th-February-2011, 17:44
If Flannery
can stand up straight then
he has to start in future!

This is the problem though, he's been started the second
he
can stand up and he's broken down again. I also find it
laughable that in the middle of discussion around all the
senseless penalties we give away people want to see the
penalty machine that is Jerry Flannery back again asap.


Would a faultless lineout on our own throw not be worth
6point a game?

Thomond78
27th-February-2011, 18:11
If Flannery
can stand up straight then
he has to start in future!

This is the problem though, he's been started the second
he
can stand up and he's broken down again. I also find it
laughable that in the middle of discussion around all the
senseless penalties we give away people want to see the
penalty machine that is Jerry Flannery back again asap.


Would a faultless lineout on our own throw not be worth
6point a game?


Considering Best's brainfarts are costing us roughly that
anyway, without the lineout, I'd take that.

Mebawsa Ritchie
27th-February-2011, 18:15
The only thing going for Sexton is his age. ROG was excellent earlier.

3Crowns3Stars
27th-February-2011, 18:25
Time for Steenson to get his opportunity as ROG's understudy.

Tobyglen
27th-February-2011, 18:43
http://www.munsterfans.com//uploads/images/Tobyglen/A67_INPHO_00491463.jpg

tickettout
27th-February-2011, 18:49
http://www.munsterfans.com//uploads/images/Tobyglen/A67_INPHO_00491463.jpg


That's a new avatar for Aussiedub right there.

sewa
27th-February-2011, 18:54
The other thing about ROG which hasn't been mentioned here is his single minded determination to achieve his goals. There are very few players who can match his desire to win and self belief in Irish sport

JoeyFantastic
27th-February-2011, 18:57
The other thing about ROG which hasn't been
mentioned here is his single minded determination to achieve
his goals. There are very few players who can match his
desire to win and self belief in Irish sport

Pretty sure Sexton has the same determination, does he have
the same intelligence though?

tickettout
27th-February-2011, 18:58
The other thing about ROG which hasn't been mentioned here is his single minded determination to achieve his goals. There are very few players who can match his desire to win and self belief in Irish sport


Never mind that, are we still on for the 3 month avatar bet in the Irish v English game? I've yours already picked.


http://www.munsterfans.com//uploads/images/tickettout/864_cooler.jpg

sewa
27th-February-2011, 18:59
I get England? Fair enough TT. Must find an appropriate response

nuke
27th-February-2011, 18:59
England gave a masterclass in it yesterday TT.



POC again just massive today. Again no impact from his

partner.

Didn't see her at the game myself so can't argue with you there

Tobyglen
27th-February-2011, 19:09
The other thing about ROG which hasn't been mentioned here is his single minded determination to achieve his goals. There are very few players who can match his desire to win and self belief in Irish sport
He's some player. To come back and deliver again shows great mental strength. Shame he didn't start the French game because we would be on for the GS

Tobyglen
27th-February-2011, 19:10
The other thing about ROG which hasn't been mentioned here is his single minded determination to achieve his goals. There are very few players who can match his desire to win and self belief in Irish sport


Never mind that, are we still on for the 3 month avatar bet in the Irish v English game? I've yours already picked.


http://www.munsterfans.com//uploads/images/tickettout/864_cooler.jpg
This is gonna be good!smileys/smile.gif

kildareleinsterfan
27th-February-2011, 19:29
I'm a big sexton fan but there is no doubt ROG is the man for d 10 jersey for the next match..


Not a hope these kicking tatics will get us anywhere in the world cup but will steadythe ship for now..


The first 3 subs were the real game changer.. Taking best, reddan and wallace off have a massive impact..


I must say Reddan was brilliant today. Quick ball all day and took some on himself too

tickettout
27th-February-2011, 19:33
I get England? Fair enough TT. Must find an appropriate response


yup, you've England

Clubman
27th-February-2011, 19:53
Heaslip gave away two very silly penalties, neither was worse than Rory Best's one 30m out straight infront of the posts.

Oddly enough if it's the one I'm thinking of he was penalised for not releasing the tackled played even though he wasn't actually the tackler - Heaslip brought the scot down and best went in over him. Nigel got that one wrong.</span>

The Sexton vs Rog debate is blown up far out of proportion too - it seems to take on a lot of a leinster / munster debate and even more so a country vs supposed snotty D4 head debate which again is pretty non-constructive. It also seems to represent and old vs new style of playing which Conor and Brent have latched on to. It's suicide to give away possession to a good counter attacking team unless you can squeeze them in the line out and unfortunately we can't right now.

I'm hoping there's some grand master plan in place but I'm really not sensing it right now. And Rog should have done an ashton after he beat patterson.


Couldn't agree more and, it wasn't the only one he got wrong either. He obviously had his mind made up to penalise us.

Old Dog
27th-February-2011, 19:57
Heaslip gave away two very silly penalties, neither was worse than Rory Best's one 30m out straight infront of the posts.


Oddly enough if it's the one I'm thinking of he was penalised for not releasing the tackled played even though he wasn't actually the tackler - Heaslip brought the scot down and best went in over him. Nigel got that one wrong.


The Sexton vs Rog debate is blown up far out of proportion too - it seems to take on a lot of a leinster / munster debate and even more so a country vs supposed snotty D4 head debate which again is pretty non-constructive. It also seems to represent and old vs new style of playing which Conor and Brent have latched on to. It's suicide to give away possession to a good counter attacking team unless you can squeeze them in the line out and unfortunately we can't right now.


I'm hoping there's some grand master plan in place but I'm really not sensing it right now. And Rog should have done an ashton after he beat patterson.





Couldn't agree more and, it wasn't the only one he got wrong either. He obviously had his mind made up to penalise us.



Better start getting used to it - Ireland (and Munster) are now clearly regarded as cheating teams and it may take bothyears to get over that reputation.

Speedy
27th-February-2011, 19:59
I thought that was a fair call actually. Best was definitely on the ball before the Scottish player was tackled. He had to allow the Scot an opportunity to place the ball, but he didnt. In 2009, it would have been a textbook turnover

Clubman
27th-February-2011, 20:03
I thought that was a fair call actually. Best was definitely on the ball before the Scottish player was tackled. He had to allow the Scot an opportunity to place the ball, but he didnt. In 2009, it would have been a textbook turnover


Is that the actual rule? How then are penalties awarded for holding on?

sewa
27th-February-2011, 20:12
Interesting to note ROG's tackle stats on scrum.com. Right up there with any of our back rows. 9 made / 0 missed. Fair play ROG smileys/thumb-up.gif

Speedy
27th-February-2011, 20:12
That is how it is being interpreted as far as I am aware. In that instance,
if Best released the Scot, who was isolated, then either the Scot would
have placed the ball, allowing Best to pick it up, or he would have held
on to it, which resulted in an Irish penalty for the tackled player holding
on. That is my undertanding of it anyway.

Hugonaut
27th-February-2011, 20:14
Interesting to note ROG's tackle stats on scrum.com. Right up there with any of our back rows. 9 made / 0 missed. Fair play ROG smileys/thumb-up.gif

He had a blinder. Smashing performance, did extremely well in the parts of his game that have at times struggled – defended the 10 channel very well and scored a try with an outside break and a big fend. Advantage ROG.

The Outlaw
27th-February-2011, 20:15
Interesting to note ROG's tackle stats on
scrum.com. Right up there with any of our back rows. 9 made
/ 0 missed. Fair play ROG smileys/thumb-up.gif

Interesting to note Cullen made 6 tackles in 16 minutes and
DOC made 8 in 64mins

Speedy
27th-February-2011, 20:16

Tobyglen
27th-February-2011, 20:17
Interesting to note ROG's tackle stats on

scrum.com. Right up there with any of our back rows. 9 made

/ 0 missed. Fair play ROG smileys/thumb-up.gif



Interesting to note Cullen made 6 tackles in 16 minutes and

DOC made 8 in 64mins
Would that be because the Scots took over at the 60 minute mark. Seriously outlaw do you actually watch games.

davidos
27th-February-2011, 20:18
ROG is playing exceptionally well and enjoying his rugby.

Can't understand that some believe the reason that Sexton is
not playing great is down to Kidney? I think Sexton is a very
good player and he showed it in patches against France.

Clubman
27th-February-2011, 20:20
That is how it is being interpreted as far as I am aware. In that instance,

if Best released the Scot, who was isolated, then either the Scot would

have placed the ball, allowing Best to pick it up, or he would have held

on to it, which resulted in an Irish penalty for the tackled player holding

on. That is my undertanding of it anyway.

Wouldn't doubt that, but from what I see, the player holding on has to be challenged to elicit a penalty. No?

The Outlaw
27th-February-2011, 20:20
Interesting to note
ROG's tackle stats on
scrum.com. Right up there with any of our back rows. 9
made
/ 0 missed. Fair play ROG smileys/thumb-up.gif

Interesting to note Cullen made 6 tackles in 16 minutes
and
DOC made 8 in 64minsWould that be because the
Scots took over at the 60 minute mark. Seriously outlaw do
you actually watch games.

Just pointing out to the unenlightened here that POC is
doing the work of 2 second rows. The penny will drop
eventually.

Speedy
27th-February-2011, 20:27
That is how it is being interpreted as far as I am aware. In that instance,

if Best released the Scot, who was isolated, then either the Scot would

have placed the ball, allowing Best to pick it up, or he would have held

on to it, which resulted in an Irish penalty for the tackled player holding

on. That is my understanding of it anyway.

Wouldn't doubt that, but from what I see, the player holding on has to be challenged to elicit a penalty. No?


Yes, I suppose. Should have added that in to the post, although if there isn't a defender challenging then there would be no reason for the attacker to hold on so it possibly wouldn't arise.

born to hula
27th-February-2011, 20:28
Interesting to note
ROG's tackle stats on
scrum.com. Right up there with any of our back rows. 9
made
/ 0 missed. Fair play ROG smileys/thumb-up.gif

Interesting to note Cullen made 6 tackles in 16 minutes
and
DOC made 8 in 64minsWould that be because the
Scots took over at the 60 minute mark. Seriously outlaw do
you actually watch games.

Just pointing out to the unenlightened here that POC is
doing the work of 2 second rows. The penny will drop
eventually.

Your basing this on tackle count?!

You can only tackle what comes your way Outlaw, do you want him to leave his
position needlessly to try and raise his stats that you're obsessed with?

The Outlaw
27th-February-2011, 20:33
Interesting to
note
ROG's tackle stats on
scrum.com. Right up there with any of our back rows. 9
made
/ 0 missed. Fair play ROG smileys/thumb-up.gif

Interesting to note Cullen made 6 tackles in 16 minutes
and
DOC made 8 in 64minsWould that be because
the
Scots took over at the 60 minute mark. Seriously outlaw
do
you actually watch games.

Just pointing out to the unenlightened here that POC is
doing the work of 2 second rows. The penny will drop
eventually.

Your basing this on tackle count?!

You can only tackle what comes your way Outlaw, do you
want him to leave his
position needlessly to try and raise his stats that you're
obsessed with?

Lets see:

Lineouts- one
Line-out Steals- none
Line Breaks- none
Carries?- no metres
Tackles 8 in 60 mins
Hit 2 rucks
4 passes

Look at POC's stats and then come back to me.

Tobyglen
27th-February-2011, 20:36
Stats mean jacks**t.
DOC was quiet but why does a guy like BOD attract no attention? Himself &amp; Darcy has been truly awful in this championship.
I agree with bringing Cullen in but it won't happen.

The Outlaw
27th-February-2011, 20:38
Stats mean jacks**t.


Its time to expand our options here in my view. He was
anonymous today for me.

The Outlaw
27th-February-2011, 20:39
Stats mean jacks**t.DOC was quiet but why does a guy like
BOD attract no attention? Himself & Darcy has been truly
awful in this championship.I agree with bringing Cullen in but
it won't happen.

I said before the game Mc fadden should never have been
dropped as did plenty of others and was laughed at because
DK can do no wrong here.

pancake
27th-February-2011, 20:42
Interesting to note

ROG's tackle stats on

scrum.com. Right up there with any of our back rows. 9

made

/ 0 missed. Fair play ROG smileys/thumb-up.gif



Interesting to note Cullen made 6 tackles in 16 minutes

and

DOC made 8 in 64minsWould that be because the

Scots took over at the 60 minute mark. Seriously outlaw do

you actually watch games.



Just pointing out to the unenlightened here that POC is

doing the work of 2 second rows. The penny will drop

eventually.

It has been said a few times that nobody would have been as happy as O'Callaghan to see POC come back from injury. He can dust off his cloak of invisibility again.

born to hula
27th-February-2011, 20:44
Interesting to
note
ROG's tackle stats on
scrum.com. Right up there with any of our back rows. 9
made
/ 0 missed. Fair play ROG smileys/thumb-up.gif

Interesting to note Cullen made 6 tackles in 16 minutes
and
DOC made 8 in 64minsWould that be because
the
Scots took over at the 60 minute mark. Seriously outlaw
do
you actually watch games.

Just pointing out to the unenlightened here that POC is
doing the work of 2 second rows. The penny will drop
eventually.

Your basing this on tackle count?!

You can only tackle what comes your way Outlaw, do you
want him to leave his
position needlessly to try and raise his stats that you're
obsessed with?

Lets see:

Lineouts- one
Line-out Steals- none
Line Breaks- none
Carries?- no metres
Tackles 8 in 60 mins
Hit 2 rucks
4 passes

Look at POC's stats and then come back to me.


Meters run - big difference. Everything else, not really. POC made 9 tackles in 80 mins and missed 1, claimed 2
lineouts and lost 1. But I'd agree DOC was average today.

Tobyglen
27th-February-2011, 20:45
Stats mean jacks**t.





Its time to expand our options here in my view. He was

anonymous today for me.
I agree. More importantly unless something is done to break up the bod/darcy partnership we won't win the triple crown.

pancake
27th-February-2011, 20:47
Heaslip gave away two very silly penalties, neither was worse than Rory Best's one 30m out straight infront of the posts.


Oddly enough if it's the one I'm thinking of he was penalised for not releasing the tackled played even though he wasn't actually the tackler - Heaslip brought the scot down and best went in over him. Nigel got that one wrong.</span>


The Sexton vs Rog debate is blown up far out of proportion too - it seems to take on a lot of a leinster / munster debate and even more so a country vs supposed snotty D4 head debate which again is pretty non-constructive. It also seems to represent and old vs new style of playing which Conor and Brent have latched on to. It's suicide to give away possession to a good counter attacking team unless you can squeeze them in the line out and unfortunately we can't right now.


I'm hoping there's some grand master plan in place but I'm really not sensing it right now. And Rog should have done an ashton after he beat patterson.





Couldn't agree more and, it wasn't the only one he got wrong either. He obviously had his mind made up to penalise us.



Better start getting used to it - Ireland (and Munster) are now clearly regarded as cheating teams and it may take bothyears to get over that reputation.


After the hatchet job Peter Bills did on Mark Lawrence after the argie game, all refs are paying special attention to Ireland. Better they trust their defence and stop trying to compete on the opposition ball all together. It is killing them.

The Outlaw
27th-February-2011, 21:15
Heaslip gave away two very silly penalties, neither was
worse than Rory Best's one 30m out straight infront of the
posts.


Oddly enough if it's the one I'm thinking of he was
penalised for not releasing the tackled played even though
he wasn't actually the tackler - Heaslip brought the scot
down and best went in over him. &lt;span style="font-weight:
bold;"&gt;Nigel got that one wrong.&lt;/span&gt;*


The Sexton vs Rog debate is blown up far out of
proportion too - it seems to take on a lot of a leinster /
munster debate and even more so a country vs supposed
snotty D4 head debate which again is pretty non-
constructive. It also seems to represent and old vs new
style of playing which Conor and Brent have latched on to.
It's suicide to give away possession to a good counter
attacking team unless you can squeeze them in the line out
and unfortunately we can't right now.


I'm hoping there's some grand master plan in place but
I'm really not sensing it right now. And Rog should have
done an ashton after he beat patterson.


Couldn't agree more and, it wasn't the only
one he got wrong either. He obviously had his mind made
up to penalise us.


Better start getting used to it - Ireland (and Munster)
are now clearly regarded as cheating teams and it may
take both*years to get over that reputation.
After the hatchet job Peter Bills did on Mark
Lawrence after the argie game, all refs are paying special
attention to Ireland. Better they trust their defence and
stop trying to compete on the opposition ball all together. It
is killing them.

i know myself from playing in the backrow-its alien not to
compete. we gave away a number of dumb penalties and 3
questionable ones.

We've been serial cheaters for years ( and not good ones)
and the chickens are coming to roost now.

SkullinPints
27th-February-2011, 21:34
The 10 debate is only one aspect:- I think Sexton has a time and a place - but today he did not play particularly well.

Stupid errors/failures on so many counts almost cost us a game we should have been miles out. (aside :- Do professional rugby teams fine players for stupid penalties conceded ?)

THe release rule is clear: the tackler has </span>to release before the player in posession has to release the ball. It must have been 3 or 4 penalties against us on that score alone. Can we not learn after the first ping ?

If people thought Owens was harsh on us - I think the fact that Low got a yellow was very dubious and just revealed the IRBs complete farce at attempting to referee the scrum.

Bright notes -
1) I thought our offloading was very much improved (with a couple of unnoticed forward passes)
2) handling errors were down until the ridiculous period in the last 10-15 mins when both sides were all over the place
3) Thought Cullen had his best dayout in a green jersey - and might have done enough to warrant a start next day
4) O'Brien had a number of tremendous surges which we should have capitalised more on
5) Reddan had a good day out

Talk about a grand slam wrt Rog v Sexton is frankly delusional. We faced a poor french side and a worse scottish side and were within a score each way of both team - that doesnt add up to a GS winning side

Edit - on the refereeing front - have IRB given instructions on advantage time to refs - is is all of 5-10 sec....? Noticed yesterday also

pancake
27th-February-2011, 22:40
i know myself from playing in the backrow-its alien not to

compete. we gave away a number of dumb penalties and 3

questionable ones.



We've been serial cheaters for years ( and not good ones)

and the chickens are coming to roost now.

Any chance that Ireland could do what many S14 teams do and make a point of slapping their hands together to emphasise that they have released the man before competing for the ball.

Consumer
27th-February-2011, 22:55
Interesting to note ROG's tackle stats on

scrum.com. Right up there with any of our back rows. 9 made

/ 0 missed. Fair play ROG smileys/thumb-up.gif



Interesting to note Cullen made 6 tackles in 16 minutes and

DOC made 8 in 64mins

Must have done lots of 'unseen work'.

DOC will definitely start next match. There is absolutely nothing he could possibly do to lose his place.

Dowlinz
27th-February-2011, 23:18
Isn't it a bit bizarre to criticise someone for lack of tackles when we didn't concede a try or come anywhere near to conceding a try? I mean, the tackles DOC made were blatantly sufficient, maybe he wasn't making what didn't need to be made as he was asked to clear out at the breakdown? I don't know.

Hugonaut
28th-February-2011, 05:41
Isn't it a bit bizarre to criticise someone for lack of tackles when we didn't concede a try or come anywhere near to conceding a try? I mean, the tackles DOC made were blatantly sufficient, maybe he wasn't making what didn't need to be made as he was asked to clear out at the breakdown? I don't know.


Yeah. In fairness to DOC, while it was hardly a vintage outing, we actually had a good bit of ball while he was on the pitch and the Sweaties didn't come within an ass's roar of scoring a try.

I thought that O'Connell looked shattered at the hour mark and was surprised that it wasn't him that Leo was coming on for. Good call by Kidney, because O'Connell's last three or four minutes were immense.

Aussiedub
28th-February-2011, 06:05
Who would ever think that now the idea of a great game is kicking ball to the opposition, missing all the penalty kicks, kicking restarts out on touch and recovering by scoring a try....


FFS it is Scotland we are playing, a team we have only lost to once in about ten years and we were lucky. The first try was absolutely unbelievable bad defending which any school boys team would have been embarrassed to concede and the 2nd wasn't far off that at all. We tore the French defence apart far better than we did the Scots.


If we are happy to be beating Scot/Italy/Wales again then lets play that way but we have to be looking at beating Aus/SA in the RWC and that is what we should be looking to do. Does anyone think that kicking the ball away is the way to go against them??? It's like Munster picking teams to win the games against Scarlets/London Irish etc even though it won't work against the likes of Toulouse/Leinster/Leicster etc

Thomond78
28th-February-2011, 06:25
Who would ever think that now the idea of a
great game is kicking ball to the opposition, missing all the penalty
kicks, kicking restarts out on touch and recovering by scoring a
try....


FFS it is Scotland we are playing, a team we have only lost to once
in about ten years and we were lucky. The first try was absolutely
unbelievable bad defending which any school boys team would have
been embarrassed to concede and the 2nd wasn't far off that at all.
We tore the French defence apart far better than we did the
Scots.


If we are happy to be beating Scot/Italy/Wales again then lets play
that way but we have to be looking at beating Aus/SA in the RWC
and that is what we should be looking to do. Does anyone think that
kicking the ball away is the way to go against them??? It's like
Munster picking teams to win the games against Scarlets/London Irish
etc even though it won't work against the likes of
Toulouse/Leinster/Leicster etc

Hmmmmmmm.

Somewhere between denial and anger on the grieving curve, I reckon.

toffblue
28th-February-2011, 08:25
Throwing this one out there.....is there a possibility that the determining factor on how Sexton/O'Gara plays may just be the 9 they have inside them.....just a thought.....

Dowlinz
28th-February-2011, 08:44
Who would ever think that now the idea of a great game is kicking ball to the opposition, missing all the penalty kicks, kicking restarts out on touch and recovering by scoring a try....


FFS it is Scotland we are playing, a team we have only lost to once in about ten years and we were lucky. The first try was absolutely unbelievable bad defending which any school boys team would have been embarrassed to concede and the 2nd wasn't far off that at all. We tore the French defence apart far better than we did the Scots.


If we are happy to be beating Scot/Italy/Wales again then lets play that way but we have to be looking at beating Aus/SA in the RWC and that is what we should be looking to do. Does anyone think that kicking the ball away is the way to go against them??? It's like Munster picking teams to win the games against Scarlets/London Irish etc even though it won't work against the likes of Toulouse/Leinster/Leicster etc

I'm pretty sure the game Sexton played when he came on wouldn't beat Garryowen let alone SA/Aus. smileys/biggrin.gif

ROG was class yesterday and was just as good in his link up and line breaking as he was in his kicking. Sexton came on and embarrassed himself looking like a one trick pony, that's not what we need from our No.10.

Benji
28th-February-2011, 08:49
Who would ever think that now the idea of a great game is kicking ball to the opposition, missing all the penalty kicks, kicking restarts out on touch and recovering by scoring a try....


FFS it is Scotland we are playing, a team we have only lost to once in about ten years and we were lucky. The first try was absolutely unbelievable bad defending which any school boys team would have been embarrassed to concede and the 2nd wasn't far off that at all. We tore the French defence apart far better than we did the Scots.


If we are happy to be beating Scot/Italy/Wales again then lets play that way but we have to be looking at beating Aus/SA in the RWC and that is what we should be looking to do. Does anyone think that kicking the ball away is the way to go against them??? It's like Munster picking teams to win the games against Scarlets/London Irish etc even though it won't work against the likes of Toulouse/Leinster/Leicster etc


Agree Ausi but we dont learn from past mistakes. Kidney is lost in the stoneage. We can beat poor sides playing kick to the corner and two out but to beat England (this yr) Oz, SA and New Zealand we have to try something different to 2007. We also need to change our centre partnership. Its too stale.


We cant expect different results if we keep the same players and gameplan.

DONC
28th-February-2011, 08:59
Interesting to note ROG's tackle stats on
scrum.com. Right up there with any of our back rows. 9 made
/ 0 missed. Fair play ROG smileys/thumb-up.gif

Interesting to note Cullen made 6 tackles in 16 minutes and
DOC made 8 in 64mins


Did not some head the ball suggest after the Italian game that DOC should be dropped because he made too many tackles. Seems he is damned if he does and damned if he dosent. You do need to feel a little sorry for Cullen at times but DOC really is not doing too much wrong so is it drop him for the sake of dropping him?

Jimmy C
28th-February-2011, 09:24
Who would ever think that now the idea of a great game is kicking ball to the opposition, missing all the penalty kicks, kicking restarts out on touch and recovering by scoring a try....


FFS it is Scotland we are playing, a team we have only lost to once in about ten years and we were lucky. The first try was absolutely unbelievable bad defending which any school boys team would have been embarrassed to concede and the 2nd wasn't far off that at all. We tore the French defence apart far better than we did the Scots.


If we are happy to be beating Scot/Italy/Wales again then lets play that way but we have to be looking at beating Aus/SA in the RWC and that is what we should be looking to do. Does anyone think that kicking the ball away is the way to go against them??? It's like Munster picking teams to win the games against Scarlets/London Irish etc even though it won't work against the likes of Toulouse/Leinster/Leicster etc




I'm pretty sure the game Sexton played when he came on wouldn't beat Garryowen let alone SA/Aus. smileys/biggrin.gif

ROG was class yesterday and was just as good in his link up and line breaking as he was in his kicking. Sexton came on and embarrassed himself looking like a one trick pony, that's not what we need from our No.10.



Sexton hardly embarrassed himself, he touched the ball 7 times when he came on and Scotland had the ball for virtually the whole of the last 10 minutes. The first touch was a re-start.2nd was a long punt to the Scottish 22, 3rd was a very long touchfinder, 4th was a pass to Healy who knocked on, 5th he took into contact, 6th was also taken into contact I think and nearly resulted in a break down the line for Cronin, 7th was when he kicked it out at full time. He made at least 2 tackles including driving Danelli backwards which eventually led to the turnover at full time.It's not like he was trying to play out of Irelands own 22. The mistakes are coming from others in the team, they should be the focus of the debate, both 10's are playing well. O'Gara was brilliant yesterday and probably should have stayed on given how close it was getting. O'Gara has earned the right to start against Wales, I don't think there would be too many arguments about that but the slagging of Sexton seems to be driven by a Munster Leinster thing, it's pretty sad.

slipper1
28th-February-2011, 10:48
It was a horses for courses selection, O'Gara to play v Scotland. He gave a masterclass in game management and put the team in the right areas of the field, funnily enough I thought the backline looked more threateningaswell. The competition with Sexton is bringing out the best in him. My only gripe is ROGgetting involved with rucks,he ain't one of the piano shifters. smileys/lol.gif

RED 49
28th-February-2011, 10:49
Who would ever think that now the idea of a
great game is kicking ball to the opposition, missing all the penalty
kicks, kicking restarts out on touch and recovering by scoring a
try....


FFS it is Scotland we are playing, a team we have only lost to once
in about ten years and we were lucky. The first try was absolutely
unbelievable bad defending which any school boys team would have
been embarrassed to concede and the 2nd wasn't far off that at all.
We tore the French defence apart far better than we did the
Scots.


If we are happy to be beating Scot/Italy/Wales again then lets play
that way but we have to be looking at beating Aus/SA in the RWC
and that is what we should be looking to do. Does anyone think that
kicking the ball away is the way to go against them??? It's like
Munster picking teams to win the games against Scarlets/London Irish
etc even though it won't work against the likes of
Toulouse/Leinster/Leicster etc You really can't give credit
can you,Rog had a great day yesterday, of course we have to
develope our game but remember worldcups are also won by playing
pragmatic sometimes even boring rugby , that's why all blacks have
failed to win one in last 20 years . You adapt your game on the field ,
not having a go at johnny sexton but if he had kicked for position a
bit more v France then I think the result would have been different .

cornerboy
28th-February-2011, 10:57
Who would ever think that now the idea of a great game is kicking ball to the opposition, missing all the penalty kicks, kicking restarts out on touch and recovering by scoring a try....


FFS it is Scotland we are playing, a team we have only lost to once in about ten years and we were lucky. The first try was absolutely unbelievable bad defending which any school boys team would have been embarrassed to concede and the 2nd wasn't far off that at all. We tore the French defence apart far better than we did the Scots.


If we are happy to be beating Scot/Italy/Wales again then lets play that way but we have to be looking at beating Aus/SA in the RWC and that is what we should be looking to do. Does anyone think that kicking the ball away is the way to go against them??? It's like Munster picking teams to win the games against Scarlets/London Irish etc even though it won't work against the likes of Toulouse/Leinster/Leicster etc




I'm pretty sure the game Sexton played when he came on wouldn't beat Garryowen let alone SA/Aus. smileys/biggrin.gif

ROG was class yesterday and was just as good in his link up and line breaking as he was in his kicking. Sexton came on and embarrassed himself looking like a one trick pony, that's not what we need from our No.10.



Sexton hardly embarrassed himself, he touched the ball 7 times when he came on and Scotland had the ball for virtually the whole of the last 10 minutes. The first touch was a re-start.2nd was a long punt to the Scottish 22, 3rd was a very long touchfinder, 4th was a pass to Healy who knocked on, 5th he took into contact, 6th was also taken into contact I think and nearly resulted in a break down the line for Cronin, 7th was when he kicked it out at full time. He made at least 2 tackles including driving Danelli backwards which eventually led to the turnover at full time.It's not like he was trying to play out of Irelands own 22. The mistakes are coming from others in the team, they should be the focus of the debate, both 10's are playing well. O'Gara was brilliant yesterday and probably should have stayed on given how close it was getting. O'Gara has earned the right to start against Wales, I don't think there would be too many arguments about that but the slagging of Sexton seems to be driven by a Munster Leinster thing, it's pretty sad.





that kick out at full time was impressive.

Hugonaut
28th-February-2011, 10:59
Who would ever think that now the idea of a great game is kicking ball to the opposition, missing all the penalty kicks, kicking restarts out on touch and recovering by scoring a try....


FFS it is Scotland we are playing, a team we have only lost to once in about ten years and we were lucky. The first try was absolutely unbelievable bad defending which any school boys team would have been embarrassed to concede and the 2nd wasn't far off that at all. We tore the French defence apart far better than we did the Scots.


If we are happy to be beating Scot/Italy/Wales again then lets play that way but we have to be looking at beating Aus/SA in the RWC and that is what we should be looking to do. Does anyone think that kicking the ball away is the way to go against them??? It's like Munster picking teams to win the games against Scarlets/London Irish etc even though it won't work against the likes of Toulouse/Leinster/Leicster etc




I'm pretty sure the game Sexton played when he came on wouldn't beat Garryowen let alone SA/Aus. smileys/biggrin.gif

ROG was class yesterday and was just as good in his link up and line breaking as he was in his kicking. Sexton came on and embarrassed himself looking like a one trick pony, that's not what we need from our No.10.



Sexton hardly embarrassed himself, he touched the ball 7 times when he came on and Scotland had the ball for virtually the whole of the last 10 minutes. The first touch was a re-start.2nd was a long punt to the Scottish 22, 3rd was a very long touchfinder, 4th was a pass to Healy who knocked on, 5th he took into contact, 6th was also taken into contact I think and nearly resulted in a break down the line for Cronin, 7th was when he kicked it out at full time. He made at least 2 tackles including driving Danelli backwards which eventually led to the turnover at full time.It's not like he was trying to play out of Irelands own 22. The mistakes are coming from others in the team, they should be the focus of the debate, both 10's are playing well. O'Gara was brilliant yesterday and probably should have stayed on given how close it was getting. O'Gara has earned the right to start against Wales, I don't think there would be too many arguments about that but the slagging of Sexton seems to be driven by a Munster Leinster thing, it's pretty sad.

Couldn't agree more with you. ROG had a great game, Sexton didn't do too much wrong when he came on at all. As you say, it's not like we were on our line - we're trying to play a bit of rugby on halfway, heaven forbid! Keep the ball out of Scottish hands, because we're getting pinged to bits at the breakdown in defense.

The hyperventilating from Lenihan and Nugent – while empathetic with the panicky nature of some of the performance – was a bit ridiculous, as was a fairly obvious attempt to lump all the blame on Sexton for Ireland 'falling apart'. Just didn't happen.

The larger, more pressing issue is that we don't know how to compete at the breakdown within the modern interpretations. Andy Robinson, while his side were sh*te and actually weren't within 5m of our line for the entire match, had a totally valid point about Owen's failure to sinbin us. Ten of the penalties he gave against us were entirely legit – some more forgivable than others [O'Gara getting pinged for holding on when he had no other choice], but most of them occured at the breakdown.

O'Connell adapted best my driving over the ball to secure the turnover on 63 minutes ... you know, actually winning the ruck!

On the positive side, our handling error count was waaaayy down from the two previous games, and a good few of our players played well - ROG and O'Brien were exceptional, Wallace, O'Connell, Reddan, Earls and Healy and Heaslip all varying degrees of good. Maybe we should actually try giving the ball to Tommy Bowe once in a while?

Jimmy C
28th-February-2011, 11:00
Who would ever think that now the idea of a great game is kicking ball to the opposition, missing all the penalty kicks, kicking restarts out on touch and recovering by scoring a try....


FFS it is Scotland we are playing, a team we have only lost to once in about ten years and we were lucky. The first try was absolutely unbelievable bad defending which any school boys team would have been embarrassed to concede and the 2nd wasn't far off that at all. We tore the French defence apart far better than we did the Scots.


If we are happy to be beating Scot/Italy/Wales again then lets play that way but we have to be looking at beating Aus/SA in the RWC and that is what we should be looking to do. Does anyone think that kicking the ball away is the way to go against them??? It's like Munster picking teams to win the games against Scarlets/London Irish etc even though it won't work against the likes of Toulouse/Leinster/Leicster etc




I'm pretty sure the game Sexton played when he came on wouldn't beat Garryowen let alone SA/Aus. smileys/biggrin.gif

ROG was class yesterday and was just as good in his link up and line breaking as he was in his kicking. Sexton came on and embarrassed himself looking like a one trick pony, that's not what we need from our No.10.



Sexton hardly embarrassed himself, he touched the ball 7 times when he came on and Scotland had the ball for virtually the whole of the last 10 minutes. The first touch was a re-start.2nd was a long punt to the Scottish 22, 3rd was a very long touchfinder, 4th was a pass to Healy who knocked on, 5th he took into contact, 6th was also taken into contact I think and nearly resulted in a break down the line for Cronin, 7th was when he kicked it out at full time. He made at least 2 tackles including driving Danelli backwards which eventually led to the turnover at full time.It's not like he was trying to play out of Irelands own 22. The mistakes are coming from others in the team, they should be the focus of the debate, both 10's are playing well. O'Gara was brilliant yesterday and probably should have stayed on given how close it was getting. O'Gara has earned the right to start against Wales, I don't think there would be too many arguments about that but the slagging of Sexton seems to be driven by a Munster Leinster thing, it's pretty sad.





that kick out at full time was impressive.





I thought he could have got a few more yards though! The embrace with O'Gara afterwards wasvery emotional. They both knew it was a good kick.

Sea_point
28th-February-2011, 11:19
Who would ever think that now the idea of a great game is kicking ball to the opposition, missing all the penalty kicks, kicking restarts out on touch and recovering by scoring a try....


FFS it is Scotland we are playing, a team we have only lost to once in about ten years and we were lucky. The first try was absolutely unbelievable bad defending which any school boys team would have been embarrassed to concede and the 2nd wasn't far off that at all. We tore the French defence apart far better than we did the Scots.


If we are happy to be beating Scot/Italy/Wales again then lets play that way but we have to be looking at beating Aus/SA in the RWC and that is what we should be looking to do. Does anyone think that kicking the ball away is the way to go against them??? It's like Munster picking teams to win the games against Scarlets/London Irish etc even though it won't work against the likes of Toulouse/Leinster/Leicster etc





The Scots were woeful in the first half, but we weren't much better in fact the only thing we did well was take the tries that were gifted to us.





The parting of the waves as both centres went to tackle Best.


The missing Scotish backrow when Reddan scored, albeit they were played out it by the scrum.


I know he had treatment shortly beforehand but Ross Ford for a Lions Hooker, sorry but heshould have buried O'Gara (nevermind Patterson's token gesture). Can you imagine a hooker from any other comparable team (Saia Fainga'a, Keven Mealamu or Andrew Hore or Bismarck du Plessis) being fended by RO'G.


Not a criticism of RO'G, he took it well. But a decent team would not have coughed up Heaslip, Reddan's or RO'G's tries. Certainly we ddn't get anywhere near scoring trieswhen the Scots finally switched on..

the plastic paddy
28th-February-2011, 11:25
One thing that occurs to me with all this slagging the boys is that I actually believe the Sweaties pack will give England a game and the Killer Bs are a proper unit made to look ordinary on sunday by Wally, heaslip and SOB. Thought Keith Earls had his best game in green for a while and Fitzgerald is starting to get some confidence back although it is a bit like pulling teeth.

tickettout
28th-February-2011, 11:28
Who would ever think that now the idea of a great game is kicking ball to the opposition, missing all the penalty kicks, kicking restarts out on touch and recovering by scoring a try....


FFS it is Scotland we are playing, a team we have only lost to once in about ten years and we were lucky. The first try was absolutely unbelievable bad defending which any school boys team would have been embarrassed to concede and the 2nd wasn't far off that at all. We tore the French defence apart far better than we did the Scots.


If we are happy to be beating Scot/Italy/Wales again then lets play that way but we have to be looking at beating Aus/SA in the RWC and that is what we should be looking to do. Does anyone think that kicking the ball away is the way to go against them??? It's like Munster picking teams to win the games against Scarlets/London Irish etc even though it won't work against the likes of Toulouse/Leinster/Leicster etc





The Scots were woeful in the first half, but we weren't much better in fact the only thing we did well was take the tries that were gifted to us.





The parting of the waves as both centres went to tackle Best.


The missing Scotish backrow when Reddan scored, albeit they were played out it by the scrum.


I know he had treatment shortly beforehand but Ross Ford for a Lions Hooker, sorry but heshould have buried O'Gara (nevermind Patterson's token gesture). Can you imagine a hooker from any other comparable team (Saia Fainga'a, Keven Mealamu or Andrew Hore or Bismarck du Plessis) being fended by RO'G.


Not a criticism of RO'G, he took it well. But a decent team would not have coughed up Heaslip, Reddan's or RO'G's tries. Certainly we ddn't get anywhere near scoring trieswhen the Scots finally switched on..











Moaning like a b***h saying that we shouldn't have scored the tries that we did.smileys/lol.gif They were completely stretched for some of the tries and on were totally onthe back foot, we ere either going to score on the phase that we did or perhaps two or three phases down the line.


There were other occasions when Nigel Jones saved them, the Reddan offload to SOB wasn't forward, this saved the Scots of a certain 7 points.


Also after another SOB break, one of the backrow tapped the ball out of Reddan's hands 5/10 m out. Prevented a try scoring opportunity (should have been yellow carded aswell)

Hugonaut
28th-February-2011, 11:37
Who would ever think that now the idea of a great game is kicking ball to the opposition, missing all the penalty kicks, kicking restarts out on touch and recovering by scoring a try....


FFS it is Scotland we are playing, a team we have only lost to once in about ten years and we were lucky. The first try was absolutely unbelievable bad defending which any school boys team would have been embarrassed to concede and the 2nd wasn't far off that at all. We tore the French defence apart far better than we did the Scots.


If we are happy to be beating Scot/Italy/Wales again then lets play that way but we have to be looking at beating Aus/SA in the RWC and that is what we should be looking to do. Does anyone think that kicking the ball away is the way to go against them??? It's like Munster picking teams to win the games against Scarlets/London Irish etc even though it won't work against the likes of Toulouse/Leinster/Leicster etc





The Scots were woeful in the first half, but we weren't much better in fact the only thing we did well was take the tries that were gifted to us.





The parting of the waves as both centres went to tackle Best.


The missing Scotish backrow when Reddan scored, albeit they were played out it by the scrum.


I know he had treatment shortly beforehand but Ross Ford for a Lions Hooker, sorry but heshould have buried O'Gara (nevermind Patterson's token gesture). Can you imagine a hooker from any other comparable team (Saia Fainga'a, Keven Mealamu or Andrew Hore or Bismarck du Plessis) being fended by RO'G.


Not a criticism of RO'G, he took it well. But a decent team would not have coughed up Heaslip, Reddan's or RO'G's tries. Certainly we ddn't get anywhere near scoring trieswhen the Scots finally switched on..











Moaning like a b***h saying that we shouldn't have scored the tries that we did.smileys/lol.gif They were completely stretched for some of the tries and on were totally onthe back foot, we ere either going to score on the phase that we did or perhaps two or three phases down the line.


There were other occasions when Nigel Jones saved them, the Reddan offload to SOB wasn't forward, this saved the Scots of a certain 7 points.


Also after another SOB break, one of the backrow tapped the ball out of Reddan's hands 5/10 m out. Prevented a try scoring opportunity (should have been yellow carded aswell)

You've got a fair few things wrong there, TicketTout. It was Moray Low who slapped the ball out of Reddan's hands, for a start.

The ref's name is Nigel Owens, unless calling him Jones is an in-joke.

They were so far from being completely stretched for the first two tries that it defies belief that they conceded them. Nick de Luca going in on Rory Best off slow third phase ball when Sean Lamont was right there? De Luca is supposed to be the experienced centre of the two! Inexcusable.

John Beattie not even having his head out of the scrum when Reddan was taking the ball from Heaslip to score? Was there any communication at all between Barclay and Beattie?

The first two tries are down to absolutely appalling defense, rather than anything special that we did. ROG's try was good though. We didn't play badly at all with the ball in hand, just were incredibly undisciplined at the breakdown.

BaltardXV
28th-February-2011, 11:40
my question may have been dealt elsewhere but waht did heaslip say prior to the game regarding Kidney selecting O'gara ahead of Sexton ?

tickettout
28th-February-2011, 11:41
Who would ever think that now the idea of a great game is kicking ball to the opposition, missing all the penalty kicks, kicking restarts out on touch and recovering by scoring a try....


FFS it is Scotland we are playing, a team we have only lost to once in about ten years and we were lucky. The first try was absolutely unbelievable bad defending which any school boys team would have been embarrassed to concede and the 2nd wasn't far off that at all. We tore the French defence apart far better than we did the Scots.


If we are happy to be beating Scot/Italy/Wales again then lets play that way but we have to be looking at beating Aus/SA in the RWC and that is what we should be looking to do. Does anyone think that kicking the ball away is the way to go against them??? It's like Munster picking teams to win the games against Scarlets/London Irish etc even though it won't work against the likes of Toulouse/Leinster/Leicster etc





The Scots were woeful in the first half, but we weren't much better in fact the only thing we did well was take the tries that were gifted to us.





The parting of the waves as both centres went to tackle Best.


The missing Scotish backrow when Reddan scored, albeit they were played out it by the scrum.


I know he had treatment shortly beforehand but Ross Ford for a Lions Hooker, sorry but heshould have buried O'Gara (nevermind Patterson's token gesture). Can you imagine a hooker from any other comparable team (Saia Fainga'a, Keven Mealamu or Andrew Hore or Bismarck du Plessis) being fended by RO'G.


Not a criticism of RO'G, he took it well. But a decent team would not have coughed up Heaslip, Reddan's or RO'G's tries. Certainly we ddn't get anywhere near scoring trieswhen the Scots finally switched on..











Moaning like a b***h saying that we shouldn't have scored the tries that we did.smileys/lol.gif They were completely stretched for some of the tries and on were totally onthe back foot, we ere either going to score on the phase that we did or perhaps two or three phases down the line.


There were other occasions when Nigel Jones saved them, the Reddan offload to SOB wasn't forward, this saved the Scots of a certain 7 points.


Also after another SOB break, one of the backrow tapped the ball out of Reddan's hands 5/10 m out. Prevented a try scoring opportunity (should have been yellow carded aswell)

You've got a fair few things wrong there, TicketTout. It was Moray Low who slapped the ball out of Reddan's hands, for a start. Regardless of who it was, it was a yellow card offense imo and totally relieved the pressure off Scotland after a wonderful SOB break.

The ref's name is Nigel Owens, unless calling him Jones is an in-joke.You're right, Im still asleep after a heavy w/e.

They were so far from being completely stretched for the first two tries that it defies belief that they conceded them. Nick de Luca going in on Rory Best off slow third phase ball when Sean Lamont was right there? De Luca is supposed to be the experienced centre of the two! Inexcusable.

John Beattie not even having his head out of the scrum when Reddan was taking the ball from Heaslip to score? Was there any communication at all between Barclay and Beattie?

The first two tries are down to absolutely appalling defense, rather than anything special that we did. ROG's try was good though. We didn't play badly at all with the ball in hand, just were incredibly undisciplined at the breakdown.

tickettout
28th-February-2011, 11:44
This try scoring analysis is criticism at a whole new level.


I wonder do the All Blacks do the same after their big wins over other teams?

Hugonaut
28th-February-2011, 12:07
This try scoring analysis is criticism at a whole new level.


I wonder do the All Blacks do the same after their big wins over other teams?




In fairness TT, the first two tries were absolute walk-ins. We wouldn't score them against any other team in the Six Nations, nevermind against a SANZAR team. They were down to appalling defending, we had to do very little.

We actually made a bunch of chances: ROG getting pinged for holding on in the first half on their 5m line when he had no support, Rory Best going straight to deck ahead of Wallace on the Scottish 5m line in the second half, the aforementioned "forward" pass to SOB from Reddan and the Moray Low slap-down when they were all in disarray.


We were so much better than Scotland that it's not funny it ended up so close. We turned them over 4 times in 4 minutes at the end of the game [Leamy's rip from Max Evans, O'Connell down on a ball that squirted out the back of a ruck, O'Connell steal from a Scottish lineout and O'Connell's rip from Nick de Luca at the death], and they had knock-ons from Barclay, Evans, Parks, a pass thrown directly into touch from Barclay and a dropped kick from Lamont in the last 17 minutes [from when Sexton came on]. They didn't get to our 5m line throughout the entire match. They're a bad team.

I don't think there's anything untoward in saying that our tries came easily, either!

Thomond78
28th-February-2011, 12:13
That one for ROG being pinged for holding on was bizarre,
btw. The ball was back, clean, at the base. Nige was looking
at it, and no problem. O'Driscoll picks it and went, slipping;
and Nige then pinged for not releasing!

Some truly bizarre decisions from Nige. I suspect that the
lack of a binning may have been because he made the
decisions and his inner TMO came back about five minutes
later going, "Nige, ewe cocked that one up, butt, don't count it
for binning purposes, right? Tidy..." smileys/lol.gif

slipper1
28th-February-2011, 12:18
This try scoring analysis is criticism at a whole new level.


I wonder do the All Blacks do the same after their big wins over other teams?





In fairness TT, the first two tries were absolute walk-ins. We wouldn't score them against any other team in the Six Nations, nevermind against a SANZAR team. They were down to appalling defending, we had to do very little.


We actually made a bunch of chances: ROG getting pinged for holding on in the first half on their 5m line when he had no support, Rory Best going straight to deck ahead of Wallace on the Scottish 5m line in the second half, the aforementioned "forward" pass to SOB from Reddan and the Moray Low slap-down when they were all in disarray.



We were so much better than Scotland that it's not funny it ended up so close. We turned them over 4 times in 4 minutes at the end of the game [Leamy's rip from Max Evans, O'Connell down on a ball that squirted out the back of a ruck, O'Connell steal from a Scottish lineout and O'Connell's rip from Nick de Luca at the death], and they had knock-ons from Barclay, Evans, Parks, a pass thrown directly into touch from Barclay and a dropped kick from Lamont in the last 17 minutes [from when Sexton came on]. They didn't get to our 5m line throughout the entire match. They're a bad team.


I don't think there's anything untoward in saying that our tries came easily, either!






I think Kidney would be under huge pressure if we lost that match andIreland came close, if we did lose he would have been hung out to dry for subbing off ROG.

Thomond78
28th-February-2011, 12:19
[QUOTE=Aussiedub
]


Who would ever think that now the idea of a great game
is kicking ball to the opposition, missing all the penalty
kicks, kicking restarts out on touch and recovering by
scoring a try....


FFS it is Scotland we are playing, a team we have only
lost to once in about ten years and we were lucky. The first
try was absolutely unbelievable bad defending which any
school boys team would have been embarrassed to
concede and the 2nd wasn't far off that at all. We tore the
French defence apart far better than we did the Scots.


If we are happy to be beating Scot/Italy/Wales again
then lets play that way but we have to be looking at
beating Aus/SA in the RWC and that is what we should be
looking to do. Does anyone think that kicking the ball away
is the way to go against them??? It's like Munster picking
teams to win the games against Scarlets/London Irish etc
even though it won't work against the likes of
Toulouse/Leinster/Leicster etc





The Scots were woeful in the first half, but we weren't
much better in fact the only thing we did well was take the
tries that were gifted to us.


*


The parting of the waves as both centres went to tackle
Best.


The missing Scotish backrow when Reddan scored,
albeit they were played out it by the scrum.


I know he had treatment shortly beforehand but Ross
Ford for a Lions Hooker, sorry but he*should have buried
O'Gara (nevermind Patterson's token gesture). Can you
imagine a hooker from any other comparable team (Saia
Fainga'a, Keven Mealamu or Andrew Hore or Bismarck du
Plessis) being fended by RO'G.


Not a criticism of RO'G, he took it well. But a decent
team would not have coughed up Heaslip, Reddan's or
RO'G's tries. Certainly we ddn't get anywhere near scoring
tries*when the Scots finally switched on..


*


*





Moaning like a b***h saying that we shouldn't have
scored the tries that we did.smileys/lol.gif* They were completely
stretched for some of the tries and on were totally on*the
back foot, we ere either going to score on the phase that
we did or perhaps two or three phases down the line.


There were other occasions when Nigel Jones saved
them, the Reddan offload to SOB wasn't forward, this
saved the Scots of a certain 7 points.


Also after another SOB break, one of the backrow
tapped the ball out of Reddan's hands 5/10 m out.
Prevented a try scoring opportunity (should have been
yellow carded aswell)You've got a fair few
things wrong there, TicketTout. It was Moray Low who
slapped the ball out of Reddan's hands, for a start. The
ref's name is Nigel Owens, unless calling him Jones is an
in-joke.They were so far from being completely stretched
for the first two tries that it defies belief that they conceded
them. Nick de Luca going in on Rory Best off slow third
phase ball when Sean Lamont was right there? De Luca is
supposed to be the experienced centre of the two!
Inexcusable.John Beattie not even having his head out of
the scrum when Reddan was taking the ball from Heaslip to
score?
So, just to make this clear - all of a sudden,
wing-forwards are SUPPOSED to have their heads out and
up when defending? Dear me, who would ever have
thought such a thing...?</font>
Was there any communication at all between Barclay and
Beattie? The first two tries are down to absolutely appalling
defense, rather than anything special that we did. ROG's
try was good though. We didn

Hugonaut
28th-February-2011, 12:27
So, just to make this clear - all of a sudden,

wing-forwards are SUPPOSED to have their heads out and

up when defending? Dear me, who would ever have

thought such a thing...?</font>


Firstly, Beattie was the no8, not a wing forward. Secondly, no point pushing a scrum when the ball has been gone for more than two seconds. Watch the incident and then come back to me.

Barclay had done his job and broken to stop Heaslip, Beattie was left pushing an empty scrum with the ball long gone and Reddan [the second man] taking to ball off Heaslip to wander in under the sticks. As I said in my original post, there was obviously a lack of communication between Barclay and Beattie, the ball was long gone.

It's just common sense.

Tobyglen
28th-February-2011, 12:33
This try scoring analysis is criticism at a whole new level.


I wonder do the All Blacks do the same after their big wins over other teams?





In fairness TT, the first two tries were absolute walk-ins. We wouldn't score them against any other team in the Six Nations, nevermind against a SANZAR team. They were down to appalling defending, we had to do very little.


We actually made a bunch of chances: ROG getting pinged for holding on in the first half on their 5m line when he had no support, Rory Best going straight to deck ahead of Wallace on the Scottish 5m line in the second half, the aforementioned "forward" pass to SOB from Reddan and the Moray Low slap-down when they were all in disarray.



We were so much better than Scotland that it's not funny it ended up so close. We turned them over 4 times in 4 minutes at the end of the game [Leamy's rip from Max Evans, O'Connell down on a ball that squirted out the back of a ruck, O'Connell steal from a Scottish lineout and O'Connell's rip from Nick de Luca at the death], and they had knock-ons from Barclay, Evans, Parks, a pass thrown directly into touch from Barclay and a dropped kick from Lamont in the last 17 minutes [from when Sexton came on]. They didn't get to our 5m line throughout the entire match. They're a bad team.


I don't think there's anything untoward in saying that our tries came easily, either!






I think Kidney would be under huge pressure if we lost that match andIreland came close, if we did lose he would have been hung out to dry for subbing off ROG.



It's a poison chalice, for some reason there's a section of supporters that seem to want him to do badly. He rightly is trying to play a more expansive game entering the WC, we simply don't have the players to compete physically with France, NZ &amp; SA in a straight arm wrestle so we need more strings to our bow.
It's not his fault that the players continually are giving away stupid penalties however if it happens in the next game I would question whether he is after slightly losing the dressing room. He needs to be very decisive now and punish anymore indiscretions. Penalties like Heaslip pulling a guy into the ruck in front of the ref, and the pens conceded by Leamy &amp; Best are unforgivable. Anymore of that s**t and they should be dropped.

Aussiedub
28th-February-2011, 12:44
This try scoring analysis is criticism at a whole new level.


I wonder do the All Blacks do the same after their big wins over other teams?





In fairness TT, the first two tries were absolute walk-ins. We wouldn't score them against any other team in the Six Nations, nevermind against a SANZAR team. They were down to appalling defending, we had to do very little.


We actually made a bunch of chances: ROG getting pinged for holding on in the first half on their 5m line when he had no support, Rory Best going straight to deck ahead of Wallace on the Scottish 5m line in the second half, the aforementioned "forward" pass to SOB from Reddan and the Moray Low slap-down when they were all in disarray.



We were so much better than Scotland that it's not funny it ended up so close. We turned them over 4 times in 4 minutes at the end of the game [Leamy's rip from Max Evans, O'Connell down on a ball that squirted out the back of a ruck, O'Connell steal from a Scottish lineout and O'Connell's rip from Nick de Luca at the death], and they had knock-ons from Barclay, Evans, Parks, a pass thrown directly into touch from Barclay and a dropped kick from Lamont in the last 17 minutes [from when Sexton came on]. They didn't get to our 5m line throughout the entire match. They're a bad team.


I don't think there's anything untoward in saying that our tries came easily, either!






I think Kidney would be under huge pressure if we lost that match andIreland came close, if we did lose he would have been hung out to dry for subbing off ROG.






It's a poison chalice, for some reason there's a section of supporters that seem to want him to do badly. He rightly is trying to play a more expansive game entering the WC, we simply don't have the players to compete physically with France, NZ &amp; SA in a straight arm wrestle so we need more strings to our bow.
It's not his fault that the players continually are giving away stupid penalties however if it happens in the next game I would question whether he is after slightly losing the dressing room. He needs to be very decisive now and punish anymore indiscretions. Penalties like Heaslip pulling a guy into the ruck in front of the ref, and the pens conceded by Leamy &amp; Best are unforgivable. Anymore of that s**t and they should be dropped.



Have to admit penalising Heaslip for pulling in a backrow forwward into the ruck when the scrumhalf was there not being touched I thought was strange..

Thomond78
28th-February-2011, 12:54
Actually, that one was even worse than that. Heaslip was
pulled across and into it by the scrum-half reaching in and
pulling him in. Penalty against Heaslip. Bizarre.

slipper1
28th-February-2011, 13:01
This try scoring analysis is criticism at a whole new level.


I wonder do the All Blacks do the same after their big wins over other teams?





In fairness TT, the first two tries were absolute walk-ins. We wouldn't score them against any other team in the Six Nations, nevermind against a SANZAR team. They were down to appalling defending, we had to do very little.


We actually made a bunch of chances: ROG getting pinged for holding on in the first half on their 5m line when he had no support, Rory Best going straight to deck ahead of Wallace on the Scottish 5m line in the second half, the aforementioned "forward" pass to SOB from Reddan and the Moray Low slap-down when they were all in disarray.



We were so much better than Scotland that it's not funny it ended up so close. We turned them over 4 times in 4 minutes at the end of the game [Leamy's rip from Max Evans, O'Connell down on a ball that squirted out the back of a ruck, O'Connell steal from a Scottish lineout and O'Connell's rip from Nick de Luca at the death], and they had knock-ons from Barclay, Evans, Parks, a pass thrown directly into touch from Barclay and a dropped kick from Lamont in the last 17 minutes [from when Sexton came on]. They didn't get to our 5m line throughout the entire match. They're a bad team.


I don't think there's anything untoward in saying that our tries came easily, either!






I think Kidney would be under huge pressure if we lost that match andIreland came close, if we did lose he would have been hung out to dry for subbing off ROG.






It's a poison chalice, for some reason there's a section of supporters that seem to want him to do badly. He rightly is trying to play a more expansive game entering the WC, we simply don't have the players to compete physically with France, NZ &amp; SA in a straight arm wrestle so we need more strings to our bow.
It's not his fault that the players continually are giving away stupid penalties however if it happens in the next game I would question whether he is after slightly losing the dressing room. He needs to be very decisive now and punish anymore indiscretions. Penalties like Heaslip pulling a guy into the ruck in front of the ref, and the pens conceded by Leamy &amp; Best are unforgivable. Anymore of that s**t and they should be dropped.



Penalties aren't the problem, that can be easily fixedby RWC.


I'm not sure if Sexton is ready for international rugby, he is trying toplay an expansive game but in our own half is plain ridiculous in intl rugby and puts the whole team under pressure. Yesterday, I thought ROG brought our wingers into the match more than Sexton didin the previous 2 games. Just going to have to trust Kidney withhis outhalf selection, there is one thing that's certain though when it comes to the crunch, he'll pick who is best for the team - nothing else, he's got history doing it with Munster. He won't take a blind bit of notice what themedia BS on about either.

Clubman
28th-February-2011, 13:05
So, just to make this clear - all of a sudden,

wing-forwards are SUPPOSED to have their heads out and

up when defending? Dear me, who would ever have

thought such a thing...?</font>


Firstly, Beattie was the no8, not a wing forward. Secondly, no point pushing a scrum when the ball has been gone for more than two seconds. Watch the incident and then come back to me.

Barclay had done his job and broken to stop Heaslip, Beattie was left pushing an empty scrum with the ball long gone and Reddan [the second man] taking to ball off Heaslip to wander in under the sticks. As I said in my original post, there was obviously a lack of communication between Barclay and Beattie, the ball was long gone.

It's just common sense.


True, but chalk that one down to Mike Ross who got on a good shove and tied Beattie down.

Clubman
28th-February-2011, 13:07
Actually, that one was even worse than that. Heaslip was

pulled across and into it by the scrum-half reaching in and

pulling him in. Penalty against Heaslip. Bizarre.

I thought so too. What did you think of the penalty against Best? I also thought that should have gone the other way. It was the Scottish player holding on. No?

Thomond78
28th-February-2011, 13:22
Actually, that one was even worse
than that. Heaslip was
pulled across and into it by the scrum-half reaching in and
pulling him in. Penalty against Heaslip. Bizarre.I
thought so too. What did you think of the penalty against
Best? I also thought that should have gone the other way.
It was the Scottish player holding on. No?

No, that was stone-cold correct. Best was an idiot. Knew he
should have released the tackled player before going for
the ball, and didn't. And if he had, the penalty would have
been the other way. Very, very poor from Best.

Hugonaut
28th-February-2011, 13:26
Penalties aren't the problem, that can be easily fixedby RWC.


I'm not sure if Sexton is ready for international rugby, he is trying toplay an expansive game but in our own half is plain ridiculous in intl rugby and puts the whole team under pressure. Yesterday, I thought ROG brought our wingers into the match more than Sexton didin the previous 2 games. Just going to have to trust Kidney withhis outhalf selection, there is one thing that's certain though when it comes to the crunch, he'll pick who is best for the team - nothing else, he's got history doing it with Munster. He won't take a blind bit of notice what themedia BS on about either.

Eh, penalties are exactly the problem. If you say they can be fixed for the RWC, why not fix them now and stop giving the likes of France and Scotland 18 points every game? Then maybe we could build some momentum.

It's absolutely not ridiculous to play an expansive game in your own half. Not in the slightest. In your 22 maybe, but if it's on, go for it. Ireland have the players to score from anywhere in Earls, Bowe, Heaslip, Wallace and O'Brien.

How many penalties did we give away in defense at the breakdown? And yet we should kick the ball away so we have to defend more? What put us under pressure was the fact that we were warned that the next penalty against us would see a man in the bin, and only O'Connell figured out how to play to the ref's instructions at the breakdown [by rucking over it rather than scrabbling or jackalling for it after the tackle].

Kidney made a big decision on selecting O'Gara and it paid off for him in spades. He made a similar decision in sticking with O'Callaghan at the start of the championship and it paid off very handsomely against both Italy and France, although he slipped somewhat yesterday.

On the other hand, he kept O'Leary as a starter for two matches, which was a poor call; ditto keeping D'Arcy in play, when he has done very little positive of note in the entire championship to date. Linked to that is the determination to select Paddy Wallace on the bench as a 12, and not allow him even a Cullen-esque 6 seconds of gametime.

On a very positive note, our handling errors have dried up hugely. If we had handled this well against Italy, we would have scored at least another two tries. Our scrum is also much improved - the two decisions given against Healy and Ross were pernickety binding calls, rather than us getting absolutely plowed, as happened against Italy. Giving Cullen some genuine gametime adds to our lineout options significantly, both as a jumper and a lifter.

O'Connell's last fifteen minutes [bar his knock-on at the base of the ruck] were outstanding - stole a lineout, snaffled a lose ball, created a turnover by tackling the hooker and driving over the ball rather than trying to pick it, stripping Nick de Luca in contact to seal the win ... massive stuff.

Tommy Bowe is back, and Earls looks like he has refound his confidence, a lot of good moments from him yesterday. ROG and Reddan both played well, individually and as a partnership.

slipper1
28th-February-2011, 14:07
Penalties aren't the problem, that can be easily fixedby RWC.


I'm not sure if Sexton is ready for international rugby, he is trying toplay an expansive game but in our own half is plain ridiculous in intl rugby and puts the whole team under pressure. Yesterday, I thought ROG brought our wingers into the match more than Sexton didin the previous 2 games. Just going to have to trust Kidney withhis outhalf selection, there is one thing that's certain though when it comes to the crunch, he'll pick who is best for the team - nothing else, he's got history doing it with Munster. He won't take a blind bit of notice what themedia BS on about either.




Eh, penalties are exactly the problem. If you say they can be fixed for the RWC, why not fix them now and stop giving the likes of France and Scotland 18 points every game? Then maybe we could build some momentum.

It's absolutely not ridiculous to play an expansive game in your own half. Not in the slightest. In your 22 maybe, but if it's on, go for it. Ireland have the players to score from anywhere in Earls, Bowe, Heaslip, Wallace and O'Brien.

How many penalties did we give away in defense at the breakdown? And yet we should kick the ball away so we have to defend more? What put us under pressure was the fact that we were warned that the next penalty against us would see a man in the bin, and only O'Connell figured out how to play to the ref's instructions at the breakdown [by rucking over it rather than scrabbling or jackalling for it after the tackle].

Kidney made a big decision on selecting O'Gara and it paid off for him in spades. He made a similar decision in sticking with O'Callaghan at the start of the championship and it paid off very handsomely against both Italy and France, although he slipped somewhat yesterday.

On the other hand, he kept O'Leary as a starter for two matches, which was a poor call; ditto keeping D'Arcy in play, when he has done very little positive of note in the entire championship to date. Linked to that is the determination to select Paddy Wallace on the bench as a 12, and not allow him even a Cullen-esque 6 seconds of gametime.

On a very positive note, our handling errors have dried up hugely. If we had handled this well against Italy, we would have scored at least another two tries. Our scrum is also much improved - the two decisions given against Healy and Ross were pernickety binding calls, rather than us getting absolutely plowed, as happened against Italy. Giving Cullen some genuine gametime adds to our lineout options significantly, both as a jumper and a lifter.

O'Connell's last fifteen minutes [bar his knock-on at the base of the ruck] were outstanding - stole a lineout, snaffled a lose ball, created a turnover by tackling the hooker and driving over the ball rather than trying to pick it, stripping Nick de Luca in contact to seal the win ... massive stuff.

Tommy Bowe is back, and Earls looks like he has refound his confidence, a lot of good moments from him yesterday. ROG and Reddan both played well, individually and as a partnership.



I'd agree with alot of that.
<DIV>Reddan has taken TOL's place on yesterday's performance, hoping he can keep it up and he looks to have cut out his 1 or 2 big blunders per game, the one combo that hasn't been tried yetis Reddan/ Sexton. as you say DOC, POC, Wally have repayedKidney with 80 minuteperformances but I think the centers might need something new or at least totry a different combination even if to only have cover for an injury. All in all, we are building nicely in my opinion and some of the big questions aregetting answered now and not in November, imo no point in blowing the likes of Italy or Scotland off the park with England type performances. The scrum is coming together better than I expected - Healy deserves alot of credit, Flannery's return will add to the lineout aswell or at lea

Daithi
28th-February-2011, 14:35
Eh, penalties are exactly the problem....


It's absolutely not ridiculous to play an expansive game in your own half. Not in the slightest. In your 22 maybe, but if it's on, go for it. Ireland have the players to score from anywhere in Earls, Bowe, Heaslip, Wallace and O'Brien.

Kidney made a big decision on selecting O'Gara and it paid off for him in spades. He made a similar decision in sticking with O'Callaghan at the start of the championship and it paid off very handsomely against both Italy and France, although he slipped somewhat yesterday.

On the other hand, he kept O'Leary as a starter for two matches, which was a poor call; ditto keeping D'Arcy in play, when he has done very little positive of note in the entire championship to date. Linked to that is the determination to select Paddy Wallace on the bench as a 12, and not allow him even a Cullen-esque 6 seconds of gametime.

On a very positive note, our handling errors have dried up hugely.


O'Connell's last fifteen minutes [bar his knock-on at the base of the ruck] were outstanding - stole a lineout, snaffled a lose ball, created a turnover by tackling the hooker and driving over the ball rather than trying to pick it, stripping Nick de Luca in contact to seal the win ... massive stuff.

Tommy Bowe is back, and Earls looks like he has refound his confidence, a lot of good moments from him yesterday. ROG and Reddan both played well, individually and as a partnership.



I agree with most of what you're saying Hugo but I'd add:


Penalties are a major problem with this Irish team, but there is also:


-consistency of attacking lineout (Ireland's throwing, lifting &amp; jumping &amp; lineout option taking not at level required)


-forward offloading game (improved yesterday but that's against crap defence)


-number of strike runners (improved yesterday but still not where it needs to be)


-support of the ball carrier (found out several times v Scot, Fra &amp; Ita)


-midfield penetration (these guys look past it as an attacking force- BOD to 12 Bowe to 13 anyone, anyone before its too late..pleaaaaaaaaase!!!)


-scrummaging (improving - but we'll still be eaten by England)


-thinking/leadership/decision making - at 38mins Ireland (via BOD) opted to kick at goal even though peno was from circa 48m (very limit of ROG's range so highly dodge) instead should have kicked into 22, mauled lineout and surely from therev a side that defends as badly as Scotland do they can give themselves a good chance of a try and at least ensure a fall back 3, with a drop or resulting peno. Shows lack of confidence &amp; clearthinking. Poor option.


-Depth of bench- 3 fresh subs at 60 minutes should strengthen a team but clearly Ireland do not have the depth that some other nations have and the 3 subs cumulatively weakened and unbalanced the side. (Hence why Kidney has not done this before and I expect will not again unless totally chasing a lost causeof a game)


-lack of a top class 15- I like Luke Fitz as player- but he's nowhere near where you need a 15 at this level (contrast his performance with those of Kearney in 09 say- thats the way you need your 15 to play at this level)


-Sexton- I like Sexton as a player (I like hard running &amp; defending 10s as a rule)but at times his option taking is seriously suspect and he needs to learn fast to improve this. Yesterday he watched from the bench as an old hand at 10 pinged Scotland into their own territory and was steering his side to an easy enough looking victory. He then comes on &amp; tries to run from deep 2-3 times before copping on that this will lose the game. He also needs to-


-run straighter more often and create space for those outside him rather than constantly crabbing into it


-improve his passing &amp; variety of passes, decision making, punting


-Gameplan- clearly Ireland's gameplan ofthe first2 games ofrun

slipper1
28th-February-2011, 15:06
-Gameplan- clearly Ireland's gameplan ofthe first2 games ofrunning from all positions &amp; trying to retain possession &amp; recycle continuously is not working for them- its not working cos of poor handling at critical times, failure to stay patient, some poor options by Sexton (continually running loops makes him very predictable to defend against and totally takes any space from the runners outside), poor discipline in the rucks &amp; lack of penetration and pace in the Irish midfield players. So the ROG executed game plan of pinging in behind wingers and getting field positon before launching outside backs and strike runners into space is much more effective for a team like Ireland IMHO. Why- cos it plays to Ireland's strengths (defensive lineout, pressure play, option taking, etc) and it mitigates some of Ireland's weaknesses (penalty discipline, lack of midfield pace, conintuity &amp; handling skills).


I'd like to see Ireland try to get Jonny Sexton to execute a Rog type gameplan (if he can that is!!) and see Ireland try new combos at 12/13 and maybe 15. Then we might see an Irish team emerge that both plays to its strengths &amp; to the new laws in a moreoptimal way.





to playan offloading gameany player whose first instinct is to go to ground in contact needs to be dropped,Ferris option at lock when fit could be tried. Reddan at 9 and Bowe at 13 would make a big difference.

Hugonaut
28th-February-2011, 17:19
I agree with most of what you're saying Hugo but I'd add:


Penalties are a major problem with this Irish team, but there is also:


-consistency of attacking lineout (Ireland's throwing, lifting &amp; jumping &amp; lineout option taking not at level required)


-forward offloading game (improved yesterday but that's against crap defence)


-number of strike runners (improved yesterday but still not where it needs to be)


-support of the ball carrier (found out several times v Scot, Fra &amp; Ita)


-midfield penetration (these guys look past it as an attacking force- BOD to 12 Bowe to 13 anyone, anyone before its too late..pleaaaaaaaaase!!!)


-scrummaging (improving - but we'll still be eaten by England)


-thinking/leadership/decision making - at 38mins Ireland (via BOD) opted to kick at goal even though peno was from circa 48m (very limit of ROG's range so highly dodge) instead should have kicked into 22, mauled lineout and surely from therev a side that defends as badly as Scotland do they can give themselves a good chance of a try and at least ensure a fall back 3, with a drop or resulting peno. Shows lack of confidence &amp; clearthinking. Poor option.


-Depth of bench- 3 fresh subs at 60 minutes should strengthen a team but clearly Ireland do not have the depth that some other nations have and the 3 subs cumulatively weakened and unbalanced the side. (Hence why Kidney has not done this before and I expect will not again unless totally chasing a lost causeof a game)


-lack of a top class 15- I like Luke Fitz as player- but he's nowhere near where you need a 15 at this level (contrast his performance with those of Kearney in 09 say- thats the way you need your 15 to play at this level)


-Sexton- I like Sexton as a player (I like hard running &amp; defending 10s as a rule)but at times his option taking is seriously suspect and he needs to learn fast to improve this. Yesterday he watched from the bench as an old hand at 10 pinged Scotland into their own territory and was steering his side to an easy enough looking victory. He then comes on &amp; tries to run from deep 2-3 times before copping on that this will lose the game. He also needs to-


-run straighter more often and create space for those outside him rather than constantly crabbing into it


-improve his passing &amp; variety of passes, decision making, punting


-Gameplan- clearly Ireland's gameplan ofthe first2 games ofrunning from all positions &amp; trying to retain possession &amp; recycle continuously is not working for them- its not working cos of poor handling at critical times, failure to stay patient, some poor options by Sexton (continually running loops makes him very predictable to defend against and totally takes any space from the runners outside), poor discipline in the rucks &amp; lack of penetration and pace in the Irish midfield players. So the ROG executed game plan of pinging in behind wingers and getting field positon before launching outside backs and strike runners into space is much more effective for a team like Ireland IMHO. Why- cos it plays to Ireland's strengths (defensive lineout, pressure play, option taking, etc) and it mitigates some of Ireland's weaknesses (penalty discipline, lack of midfield pace, conintuity &amp; handling skills).


I'd like to see Ireland try to get Jonny Sexton to execute a Rog type gameplan (if he can that is!!) and see Ireland try new combos at 12/13 and maybe 15. Then we might see an Irish team emerge that both plays to its strengths &amp; to the new laws in a moreoptimal way.

Very good post Daithí, but I'd disagree with a number of points all the same. We've got Bowe, O'Brien, Heaslip, Earls, Wallace and O'Driscoll – plenty of excellent runners.

Regarding the missed penalties, that's purely down to ROG. Putting that on O'Driscoll is far-fetched. O'Gara clearly thought he could get it, or else he would have said to

slipper1
28th-February-2011, 18:11
<DIV>this is taking it to an extreme but it's picking players to suit the gameplan</DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>start with Sexton and play an offloading game -
15 Luke Fitzgerald, 14 Fergus McFaddan, 13 Tommy Bowe, 12 Brian O'Driscoll, 11 Keith Earls, 10 Jonathan Sexton, 9 Eoin Reddan/ Boss, 8 Jamie Heaslip, 7 David Wallace, 6 Sean O'Brien, 5 Mick O'Driscoll, 4 Stephen Ferris, 3 Mike Ross, 2 Sean Cronin, 1 Cian Healy.

start with O'Gara and play a territorial game -
15 Rob Kearney, 14 Tommy Bowe, 13 Brian O'Driscoll, 12 Gordon D'Arcy, 11 Keith Earls, 10 Ronan O'Gara, 9 Eoin Reddan/ Stringer, 8 Jamie Heaslip, 7 David Wallace, 6 Sean O'Brien, 5 Paul O'Connell, 4 Leo Cullen, 3 Mike Ross, 2 Rory Best, 1 Cian Healy. </DIV>
<DIV>
</DIV>
<DIV>I think we need to find a balance between the twofor international rugby, sides like SA with a glut of players for each position opt for the territory/ set-pieceorientated game.</DIV>

28th-February-2011, 18:23
I can't believe the number of people blindly saying the
penalties can be fixed. If so then why haven't they? The
same players give away the same penalties constantly -
there's a point where we have to call a spade a spade and say
some of these guys are just plain dumb in these situations.

Hugonaut
28th-February-2011, 18:27
<div>this is taking it to an extreme but it's picking players to suit the gameplan</div>
<div></div>
<div>start with Sexton and play an offloading game -
15 Luke Fitzgerald, 14 Fergus McFaddan, 13 Tommy Bowe, 12 Brian O'Driscoll, 11 Keith Earls, 10 Jonathan Sexton, 9 Eoin Reddan/ Boss, 8 Jamie Heaslip, 7 David Wallace, 6 Sean O'Brien, 5 Mick O'Driscoll, 4 Stephen Ferris, 3 Mike Ross, 2 Sean Cronin, 1 Cian Healy.

start with O'Gara and play a territorial game -
15 Rob Kearney, 14 Tommy Bowe, 13 Brian O'Driscoll, 12 Gordon D'Arcy, 11 Keith Earls, 10 Ronan O'Gara, 9 Eoin Reddan/ Stringer, 8 Jamie Heaslip, 7 David Wallace, 6 Sean O'Brien, 5 Paul O'Connell, 4 Leo Cullen, 3 Mike Ross, 2 Rory Best, 1 Cian Healy. </div>
<div>
</div>
<div>I think we need to find a balance between the twofor international rugby, sides like SA with a glut of players for each position opt for the territory/ set-pieceorientated game.</div>

I see what you're doing there Slipper, although you certainly are taking it to extremes!

I'd have no beef whatsoever with dropping D'Arcy, who for whatever reason has had a poor championship to date. I'd like to see McFadden get a start at 12, which is where he's playing most of his rugby these days for Leinster.

I think it'd be hard to argue that Leo isn't a more effective lineout operator than Donncha, and with O'Brien at 6 at the moment [rather than Ferris] I do think that should play a part in who starts the match. If we're going to kick for touch and allow opposition throws, Leo is definitely a better man to compete/spoil.

ROG had a great game and should start the next match against Wales; Reddan wasn't quite as good, but still was the best of the scrumhalves that Ireland have played in the championship to date. O'Leary should have no part to play anymore, way too many problems with his game.

The Outlaw
28th-February-2011, 18:51
Actually, that one was even worse than
that. Heaslip was
pulled across and into it by the scrum-half reaching in and
pulling him in. Penalty against Heaslip. Bizarre.

Couldnt agree less. The ref clearly said twice for Heaslip to let
him go. And he didnt.
Dumb with a capital D. Regardless of whether it was a good
call or a bad call. Thats braindead by Heaslip and another
example of how our lads cant think on their feet to save their
bloody lives.

The Outlaw
28th-February-2011, 18:57
[QUOTE=Hugonaut]Eh, penalties are
exactly the problem....


It's absolutely not ridiculous to play an expansive game
in your own half. Not in the slightest. In your 22 maybe,
but if it's on, go for it. Ireland have the players to score
from anywhere in Earls, Bowe, Heaslip, Wallace and
O'Brien. Kidney made a big decision on selecting O'Gara
and it paid off for him in spades. He made a similar
decision in sticking with O'Callaghan at the start of the
championship and it paid off very handsomely against both
Italy and France, although he slipped somewhat yesterday.
On the other hand, he kept O'Leary as a starter for two
matches, which was a poor call; ditto keeping D'Arcy in
play, when he has done very little positive of note in the
entire championship to date. Linked to that is the
determination to select Paddy Wallace on the bench as a
12, and not allow him even a Cullen-esque 6 seconds of
gametime. On a very positive note, our handling errors
have dried up hugely.


O'Connell's last fifteen minutes [bar his knock-on at the
base of the ruck] were outstanding - stole a lineout,
snaffled a lose ball, created a turnover by tackling the
hooker and driving over the ball rather than trying to pick
it, stripping Nick de Luca in contact to seal the win ...
massive stuff. Tommy Bowe is back, and Earls looks like
he has refound his confidence, a lot of good moments from
him yesterday. ROG and Reddan both played well,
individually and as a partnership.


I agree with most of what you're saying Hugo but I'd
add:


Penalties are a major problem with this Irish team, but
there is also:


-consistency of attacking lineout (Ireland's throwing,
lifting & jumping & lineout option taking not at level
required)


-forward offloading game (improved yesterday but
that's against crap defence)


-number of strike runners (improved yesterday but still
not where it needs to be)


-support of the ball carrier (found out several times v
Scot, Fra & Ita)


-midfield penetration (these guys look past it as an
attacking force- BOD to 12 Bowe to 13 anyone, anyone
before its too late..pleaaaaaaaaase!!!)


-scrummaging (improving - but we'll still be eaten by
England)


-thinking/leadership/decision making - at 38mins Ireland
(via BOD) opted to kick at goal even though peno was from
circa 48m (very limit of ROG's range so highly dodge)
instead should have kicked into 22, mauled lineout and
surely from there*v a side that defends as badly as
Scotland do they can give themselves a good chance of a
try and at least ensure a fall back 3, with a drop or
resulting peno. Shows lack of confidence & clear*thinking.
Poor option.


-Depth of bench- 3 fresh subs at 60 minutes should
strengthen a team but clearly Ireland do not have the
depth that some other nations have and the 3 subs
cumulatively weakened and unbalanced the side. (Hence
why Kidney has not done this before and I expect will not
again unless totally chasing a lost cause*of a game)


-lack of a top class 15- I like Luke Fitz as player- but
he's nowhere near where you need a 15 at this level
(contrast his performance with those of Kearney in 09 say-
thats the way you need your 15 to play at this level)


-Sexton- I like Sexton as a player (I like hard running &
defending 10s as a rule)*but at times his option taking is
seriously suspect and he needs to learn fast to improve
this. Yesterday he watched from the bench as an old hand
at 10 pinged Scotland into their own territory and was
steering his side to an easy enough looking victory. H

Tobyglen
28th-February-2011, 18:58
Actually, that one was even worse than

that. Heaslip was

pulled across and into it by the scrum-half reaching in and

pulling him in. Penalty against Heaslip. Bizarre.



Couldnt agree less. The ref clearly said twice for Heaslip to let

him go. And he didnt.

Dumb with a capital D. Regardless of whether it was a good

call or a bad call. Thats braindead by Heaslip and another

example of how our lads cant think on their feet to save their

bloody lives.
Yep, he deserved to be dropped for it. That was my understanding of it, you could hear it through the ref mike but Heaslip as though he was invincible after scoring the try. It was utterly stupid.

Clubman
28th-February-2011, 19:02
Thought this was about the outhalves? Well anyway, the question was answered yesterday, ROG is by far the better option. The other lad can do some things ROG can't - loops around and tackles and is faster and I'd guess stronger - but that's as far as it goes. Game manager supreme is still the man.

Tobyglen
28th-February-2011, 19:15
Actually, that one was even worse than

that. Heaslip was

pulled across and into it by the scrum-half reaching in and

pulling him in. Penalty against Heaslip. Bizarre.



Couldnt agree less. The ref clearly said twice for Heaslip to let

him go. And he didnt.

Dumb with a capital D. Regardless of whether it was a good

call or a bad call. Thats braindead by Heaslip and another

example of how our lads cant think on their feet to save their

bloody lives.
Yep, he deserved to be dropped for it. That was my understanding of it, you could hear it through the ref mike but Heaslip as though he was invincible after scoring the try. It was utterly stupid.

57 mins into the coverage. Owens didn't say anything but to that that in front of him isn't good enough. Himself, Best, Leamy should be warned. Last chance saloon. They just can't seem to understand that you have to release the player when you make a tackle. The SH players clap their hands to signify to the ref that this has happened.

http://www.rte.ie/player/#v=1092707

slipper1
28th-February-2011, 19:28
<DIV>this is taking it to an extreme but it's picking players to suit the gameplan</DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>start with Sexton and play an offloading game -
15 Luke Fitzgerald, 14 Fergus McFaddan, 13 Tommy Bowe, 12 Brian O'Driscoll, 11 Keith Earls, 10 Jonathan Sexton, 9 Eoin Reddan/ Boss, 8 Jamie Heaslip, 7 David Wallace, 6 Sean O'Brien, 5 Mick O'Driscoll, 4 Stephen Ferris, 3 Mike Ross, 2 Sean Cronin, 1 Cian Healy.

start with O'Gara and play a territorial game -
15 Rob Kearney, 14 Tommy Bowe, 13 Brian O'Driscoll, 12 Gordon D'Arcy, 11 Keith Earls, 10 Ronan O'Gara, 9 Eoin Reddan/ Stringer, 8 Jamie Heaslip, 7 David Wallace, 6 Sean O'Brien, 5 Paul O'Connell, 4 Leo Cullen, 3 Mike Ross, 2 Rory Best, 1 Cian Healy. </DIV>
<DIV>
</DIV>
<DIV>I think we need to find a balance between the twofor international rugby, sides like SA with a glut of players for each position opt for the territory/ set-pieceorientated game.</DIV>




I see what you're doing there Slipper, although you certainly are taking it to extremes!

I'd have no beef whatsoever with dropping D'Arcy, who for whatever reason has had a poor championship to date. I'd like to see McFadden get a start at 12, which is where he's playing most of his rugby these days for Leinster.

I think it'd be hard to argue that Leo isn't a more effective lineout operator than Donncha, and with O'Brien at 6 at the moment [rather than Ferris] I do think that should play a part in who starts the match. If we're going to kick for touch and allow opposition throws, Leo is definitely a better man to compete/spoil.

ROG had a great game and should start the next match against Wales; Reddan wasn't quite as good, but still was the best of the scrumhalves that Ireland have played in the championship to date. O'Leary should have no part to play anymore, way too many problems with his game.



that would begetting closer to the right balance and picking players to counter-act the opposition.


I'dpick O'Gara against Wales (and Stephen Jones)and play Sexton against England (and Toby Flood). Against NZ I'd play Sexton for his physicality and against SA I'd probably start O'Gara to play territory, against Australia whoever is the form outhalf leading into the match. Having Joe Schmidt around the Irish setup for the backs would do them no harm because it isn't working at the moment.

Hugonaut
28th-February-2011, 19:44
Kearney 09? Catch a high ball- garryowen.




or-catch a high ball and run back into the opposition with

the ball under one arm.



Granted he has a poor backs coach in Gaffney but none of

Earls, Fitzgerald or Kearney are the answer at 15.



Its a pity about Kearney - saw him at schools level . Had

the makings of a great. But Clongowes have a lot to

answer for in the way they trained him. Instead of

expanding his skill base he ended up developing his left

foot. Maybe Schimdt can do something with him- because

Gaffney sure as to hell wont.

You just keep on saying the same things about Kearney, and I'll keep saying the same things I say!

Great under the high ball, excellent positioning, big left boot, long-range place-kicker. Great spin-out of contact, good step. Decent try scoring rate - 6 in 24 starts at international level, 25 in 86 starts for Leinster. His big problems tackling on his right shoulder [fixable] and doesn't pass often enough [fixable].

He has done it on the biggest stage, at the highest level - huge performances away in NZ and Australia in 08, for the Lions against SA in 09 and against SA at home in 09.

Far too much guff is spoken about how the "new laws" mean he's not effective anymore - the basics of full-back play are pretty much the same as ever: while there's not half as much kicking the ball in the air, being in the right place, being safe under a high ball and having a big boot are all still hugely important.

On form the best fullback in Ireland. More time with Schmidt will most probably improve him, as it has improved McFadden, McKinley, O'Malley etc.

Thomond78
28th-February-2011, 19:48
Actually, that
one was even worse than
that. Heaslip was
pulled across and into it by the scrum-half reaching in and
pulling him in. Penalty against Heaslip. Bizarre.

Couldnt agree less. The ref clearly said twice for Heaslip to
let
him go. And he didnt.
Dumb with a capital D. Regardless of whether it was a good
call or a bad call. Thats braindead by Heaslip and another
example of how our lads cant think on their feet to save
their
bloody lives.

That's fine, Outlaw; but Heaslip did, from what I can see on
the replay, leave go when told. Beattie, who was in the
ruck - shoulders in contact, and therefore had to be bound
on, and could be bound onto, lest Nige forget - then
grabbed hold of him, and pulled him over, at which stage
Heaslip grabbed him again - and Nige then penalised
Heaslip. It's at 16:30ish on on the game clock, from about
57:30 on the RTÉ player, if you want to look at it again.
Quite apart from anything else, Nige seemed to thing the 8
was the 9. And, there appears to be a nice little punch to
the back of the head from Beattie after the ball is gone,
too, but that could just be to the arm.

And believe me, if I could dump on Jimmy Whiteboots in
good conscience, I would.

By the bye, going through the game again, two things; one,
Best could and should have been pinged for a lot more
offences holding on. He gave away one on their 22 for
crawling through the ruck on all fours while not releasing
the tackled player 16 minutes in (with SOB, it has to be
said), when we were in a great position. Two, the number
of times a Scottish dummy runner ran into and took out a
defender without once being penalised is quite spectacular.

Also, the first penalty Owens gave away for not releasing a
tackler that was kicked - it wasn't. The Scot knocked on,
then grabbed it on the ground. D'Arcy was entitled to go for
the ball, and it was, in fact, a penalty to us. Nige was only
reffing one way; I think the reason we didn't get a binning
was because his internal assessor was realising he was
getting penalties wrong and couldn't bin someone on the
basis of a cock-up by him.

Combatlogo
28th-February-2011, 19:57
I was at the game so haven't had a chance to look at the penalties but the Jocks seemed to steal a lot of our ball at the breakdown and you'd have to ask if we should have gotpenalties for hands in the ruck or tackler not releasing.

Hugonaut
28th-February-2011, 20:23
Also, the first penalty Owens gave away for not releasing a

tackler that was kicked - it wasn't. The Scot knocked on,

then grabbed it on the ground. D'Arcy was entitled to go for

the ball, and it was, in fact, a penalty to us. Nige was only

reffing one way; I think the reason we didn't get a binning

was because his internal assessor was realising he was

getting penalties wrong and couldn't bin someone on the

basis of a cock-up by him.

That penalty was actually against Healy for lazy running. The touch judge calls it, and you can hear Owens say "Got it, got it," then "One Green, not retreating quick enough."

It was a legit enough penalty, but there's a horrendous dose of lazy running from Beattie at 32:24 after a good carry from O'Connell where the Scottish No.8 runs back directly across Reddan's line of pass at the base of the ruck ... Reddan hesitates for a second and Sean Lamont gazumps him. Owens certainly gave us a hard time and was a little inconsistent.

Thomond78
28th-February-2011, 20:28
*

Also, the first penalty Owens gave away for not releasing a
tackler that was kicked - it wasn't. The Scot knocked on,
then grabbed it on the ground. D'Arcy was entitled to go for
the ball, and it was, in fact, a penalty to us. Nige was only
reffing one way; I think the reason we didn't get a binning
was because his internal assessor was realising he was
getting penalties wrong and couldn't bin someone on the
basis of a cock-up by him.That penalty was
actually against Healy for lazy running. The touch judge
calls it, and you can hear Owens say "Got it, got it," then
"One Green, not retreating quick enough." It was a legit
enough penalty, but there's a horrendous dose of lazy
running from Beattie at 32:24 after a good carry from
O'Connell where the Scottish No.8 runs back directly across
Reddan's line of pass at the base of the ruck ... Reddan
hesitates for a second and Sean Lamont gazumps him.
Owens certainly gave us a hard time and was a little
inconsistent.

Hell, Moray Low was doing outside loops around the backs
of rucks all day. As for the dummy runners running crash
ball... smileys/lol.gif

davidos
28th-February-2011, 20:49
I was at the game so haven't had a
chance to look at the penalties but the Jocks seemed to steal
a lot of our ball at the breakdown and you'd have to ask if we
should have got*penalties for hands in the ruck or tackler not
releasing.

That is what I thought.

The Outlaw
28th-February-2011, 21:26
Kearney 09? Catch a high ball- garryowen.


or-catch a high ball and run back into the opposition with
the ball under one arm.

Granted he has a poor backs coach in Gaffney but none of
Earls, Fitzgerald or Kearney are the answer at 15.

Its a pity about Kearney - saw him at schools level . Had
the makings of a great. But Clongowes have a lot to
answer for in the way they trained him. Instead of
expanding his skill base he ended up developing his left
foot. Maybe Schimdt can do something with him- because
Gaffney sure as to hell wont.You just keep on
saying the same things about Kearney, and I'll keep saying
the same things I say! Great under the high ball, excellent
positioning, big left boot, long-range place-kicker. Great
spin-out of contact, good step. Decent try scoring rate - 6
in 24 starts at international level, 25 in 86 starts for
Leinster. His big problems tackling on his right shoulder
[fixable] and doesn't pass often enough [fixable]. He has
done it on the biggest stage, at the highest level - huge
performances away in NZ and Australia in 08, for the Lions
against SA in 09 and against SA at home in 09. Far too
much guff is spoken about how the "new laws" mean he's
not effective anymore - the basics of full-back play are
pretty much the same as ever: while there's not half as
much kicking the ball in the air, being in the right place,
being safe under a high ball and having a big boot are all
still hugely important.On form the best fullback in Ireland.
More time with Schmidt will most probably improve him, as
it has improved McFadden, McKinley, O'Malley etc.


You've completely agreed with me. You've just dressed it
up.
Big boot, good catcher, reasonable positioning sense and
no counter attacking ability. Its not all his own fault- he's
been poorly coached

The Lions is irrelevent under the existing laws.
But since the other alternatives cant master the basics of
catching a high ball- he'll be back in when he's fit.

When faced with Kurtley Beale and Muls Muliana kicking the
ball wont be much use to you.

The Outlaw
28th-February-2011, 21:29
Actually, that
one was even worse than
that. Heaslip was
pulled across and into it by the scrum-half reaching in and
pulling him in. Penalty against Heaslip. Bizarre.

Couldnt agree less. The ref clearly said twice for Heaslip to
let
him go. And he didnt.
Dumb with a capital D. Regardless of whether it was a good
call or a bad call. Thats braindead by Heaslip and another
example of how our lads cant think on their feet to save
their
bloody lives.

That's fine, Outlaw; but Heaslip did, from what I can see on
the replay, leave go when told. Beattie, who was in the
ruck - shoulders in contact, and therefore had to be bound
on, and could be bound onto, lest Nige forget - then
grabbed hold of him, and pulled him over, at which stage
Heaslip grabbed him again - and Nige then penalised
Heaslip. It's at 16:30ish on on the game clock, from about
57:30 on the RTÉ player, if you want to look at it again.
Quite apart from anything else, Nige seemed to thing the 8
was the 9. And, there appears to be a nice little punch to
the back of the head from Beattie after the ball is gone,
too, but that could just be to the arm.

And believe me, if I could dump on Jimmy Whiteboots in
good conscience, I would.

By the bye, going through the game again, two things; one,
Best could and should have been pinged for a lot more
offences holding on. He gave away one on their 22 for
crawling through the ruck on all fours while not releasing
the tackled player 16 minutes in (with SOB, it has to be
said), when we were in a great position. Two, the number
of times a Scottish dummy runner ran into and took out a
defender without once being penalised is quite spectacular.

Also, the first penalty Owens gave away for not releasing a
tackler that was kicked - it wasn't. The Scot knocked on,
then grabbed it on the ground. D'Arcy was entitled to go for
the ball, and it was, in fact, a penalty to us. Nige was only
reffing one way; I think the reason we didn't get a binning
was because his internal assessor was realising he was
getting penalties wrong and couldn't bin someone on the
basis of a cock-up by him.

Nige told him to let go and he didn't. That just dumb in my
view. Mc Caw or Pocock would have let go. Thats the
difference. A little bit of nous.
For all the talk about Gaffney its about time Smals was
asked to account for what he's supposed to be doing there.
Because we're going backwards in the pack.

sewa
28th-February-2011, 21:33
Thought this was about the outhalves? Well anyway, the question was answered yesterday, ROG is by far the better option. The other lad can do some things ROG can't - loops around and tackles and is faster and I'd guess stronger - but that's as far as it goes. Game manager supreme is still the man.

Spot on. Thanks for returning the discussion to what it was about rather than the dick waving competition

shipstirrer
28th-February-2011, 22:46
Thought this was
about the outhalves? Well anyway, the question was
answered yesterday, ROG is by far the better option. The
other lad can do some things ROG can't - loops around and
tackles and is faster and I'd guess stronger - but that's as
far as it goes. Game manager supreme is still the man.

Spot on. Thanks for returning the discussion to what it was
about rather than the dick waving competition

I love the way the majority of the opinions on this site 2
weeks ago was "we're lucky to have 2 great outhalfs", and
they have now gone to "ROG is the far better option" after
hes had one good game....against the weakest side in the
competition.

son-of-munster
28th-February-2011, 23:17
It's not my first choice but its the only way i see us fixing
the midfield without moving BOD to 12 ( which he'll never
allow to happen ). Johnny's probably a better tackler than
wallace and has better hands so i think he would be the
type of 12 that paddy's trying to be, only better.

it will also allow us to settle the rog/sexton debate till after
the World Cup. This is how the Aussie's would accommodate two 10's.

while there are other options, i don't see deccie doing
them. Downey while ultimitly may just be a big strong fish
in the average pond that is the premiership, hasn't even
been looked at in the wolf-hounds.

I don't see this happening either, but i think it would work if
tried.

Dowlinz
1st-March-2011, 00:01
He'd really need to be playing there at club level in some capacity for him to be even considered at international level. DK's decision is easy, if the BOD/Darcy axis remains intact at Leinster thats his centre duo for the world cup, if it did and he were to break it up I think he'd be taking a massive risk.

I do think Sexton has the attributes for there but I don't think it'd be a smart move. The last thing Sexton wants is to be a Hook type player getting shuffled around the pitch never really settling anywhere.

But personally I think D'arcy has been one of our most consistent players in the last decade so I wouldn't panic just because he's made a few high profile errors recently, he'll recover.

Consumer
1st-March-2011, 00:05
Absolutely nowhere near the physicality or defensive skills needed for that position.

Dowlinz
1st-March-2011, 00:07
Thought this was

about the outhalves? Well anyway, the question was

answered yesterday, ROG is by far the better option. The

other lad can do some things ROG can't - loops around and

tackles and is faster and I'd guess stronger - but that's as

far as it goes. Game manager supreme is still the man.



Spot on. Thanks for returning the discussion to what it was

about rather than the dick waving competition



I love the way the majority of the opinions on this site 2

weeks ago was "we're lucky to have 2 great outhalfs", and

they have now gone to "ROG is the far better option" after

hes had one good game....against the weakest side in the

competition.

For most people I think they always acknowledged ROG was the better option but were happy to side with Sexton starting to help him gather experience and ultimately someday become better than ROG. His progress has maybe been slower than people would like though and I think the cameos in the AI and 6N has finally got people snapping that the RWC is coming up soon and its time to stop building and time to start playing our strongest hand.

Actually I'd love to see a ratio of time on the pitch to team points scored - against for both of them in the AI+6N. I'd imagine the difference is quite pronounced.

Luimneach
1st-March-2011, 06:14
It has to be ROG every time but we needed options and in fairness I think posters on this site and fans generally went along with that. ROG is one of the best tactical kickers in the world game. Johnny has a few tricks up his sleeve loops Pirouettes etc but is he world class at any of them?. Dead ball wise both are very accurate out of hand ROG shades it also. In a year or two I think looking at the current U20 guy (Name I do not recall) in the 10 shirt and we will have another option then it will become a three way discussion before ROG hangs up his boots.

The Doc
1st-March-2011, 06:59
It has to be ROG every time but we needed options and in fairness I think posters on this site and fans generally went along with that. ROG is one of the best tactical kickers in the world game. Johnny has a few tricks up his sleeve loops Pirouettes etc but is he world class at any of them?. Dead ball wise both are very accurate out of hand ROG shades it also. In a year or two I think looking at the current U20 guy (Name I do not recall) in the 10 shirt and we will have another option then it will become a three way discussion before ROG hangs up his boots.


Was at the Leinster Treviso game last Friday - McKinley played 10. He's still a young lad (21 I think) and I was pretty impressed with him. Seemed to be a mixture of Sexton (some very good breaks and tackles) and O'Gara (some good kicking).


Interesting to see how he develops - it can be easy to go through a bad patch after you first break through - but I think he and Madigan will see a lot more game time next year along with Keatley. If even one of them step up there is another option


(assuming we had a management team who would look at new player !!!)

Aussiedub
1st-March-2011, 08:53
The question that needs to be asked is which one gives us the best chance to beat Aus in the RWC?


A decent game against Scotland (especially a totally weakened Scotland backline) is not the sign that someone is the solution to all the problems.. It's like saying someone who plays well against Edinburgh in the ML will be as good in the HC against Toulouse.


If anyone thinks that the way to beat Aus is to kick the ball to them and have a weakness in the defensive line then there is a serious problem.

Dowlinz
1st-March-2011, 09:04
The question that needs to be asked is which one gives us the best chance to beat Aus in the RWC?


A decent game against Scotland (especially a totally weakened Scotland backline) is not the sign that someone is the solution to all the problems.. It's like saying someone who plays well against Edinburgh in the ML will be as good in the HC against Toulouse.


If anyone thinks that the way to beat Aus is to kick the ball to them and have a weakness in the defensive line then there is a serious problem.

Its a bit of a misconception that ROG kicks the ball all the time, he reads the game and kicks, runs or passes depending on what the smart option is at that time. Sexton isn't capable of doing this and his game is far more predictable.

Our best chance of winning is with a 10 who'll read the game well and do the right thing in the right situation, there can be no doubt who that is.

Aussiedub
1st-March-2011, 09:22
The question that needs to be asked is which one gives us the best chance to beat Aus in the RWC?


A decent game against Scotland (especially a totally weakened Scotland backline) is not the sign that someone is the solution to all the problems.. It's like saying someone who plays well against Edinburgh in the ML will be as good in the HC against Toulouse.


If anyone thinks that the way to beat Aus is to kick the ball to them and have a weakness in the defensive line then there is a serious problem.




Its a bit of a misconception that ROG kicks the ball all the time, he reads the game and kicks, runs or passes depending on what the smart option is at that time. Sexton isn't capable of doing this and his game is far more predictable.

Our best chance of winning is with a 10 who'll read the game well and do the right thing in the right situation, there can be no doubt who that is.



So how come he doesn't do it for Munster then or how come we went for leading Italy to being behind when he was on?

99_oK?
1st-March-2011, 09:32
....


So how come he doesn't do it for Munster then or how come we went for leading Italy to being behind when he was on?


I'll give you a hint A D....


There's a '0' after the '1' on the back of RoG's shirt.


As for te Italy game, Twasn't his fault we got pinged in the scrummaging or that Parisse was eating our wingers.... ahem, b-rowers.


When it came to it, the team did as asked and he played his part in salvaging a win from the jaws of defeat.


Last Sunday our best efforts in the last 10 still couldn't gift Scotland a win. That's why I reckon Italy will beat Scotland.

Benji
1st-March-2011, 09:32
Rog has the experience and he does read the game quite well but he doesnt have the running game or defence that Sexton has. Sure people can say he wasnt walked over against the scots but they were Shi** on sunday.


We scored two of the easiest try's that you will see in the 6 nations. Buckley would have survived in the scrum at the weekend and probably looked ok. Its still wouldnt make Buckley a cert to start against England.


Aussie Dub is right. Looking forward to the world cup we need to see who would give us the best chance of beating the top teams. IMHO Its fairly even, Both have their faults but were lucky in that they are both good enough to start and will probably be a horses for courses effort for Kidney.


Our aim should be to get a side to beat the oz, new Zealand , South africa, France and England in the world cup.


Can Rog handle the physical challenge of the oz, All Blacks and Sa?


Can Sexton handle the pressure ? Can he develop his game management between here and the world cup?


These are only two players fighting for the ten spot. Its a pity Kidney doesnt see an option for our 2007 Centres and second row pairing.


If only the competition through out the side was as good as the ten position.

slipper1
1st-March-2011, 09:41
So how come he doesn't do it for Munster then or how come we went for leading Italy to being behind when he was on?





Are you f**king stupid or just a WUM ?

Thomond78
1st-March-2011, 09:48
*


So how come he doesn't do it for Munster then or how
come we went for leading Italy to being behind when he was
on?





Are you f**king stupid or just a WUM ?

A little from Column A, little from Column B...? smileys/wink.gif

Aussiedub
1st-March-2011, 09:55
So how come he doesn't do it for Munster then or how come we went for leading Italy to being behind when he was on?





Are you f**king stupid or just a WUM ?





Its a bit of a misconception that ROG kicks the ball all the time, <S&#079;NG>he reads the game and kicks, runs or passes depending on what the smart option is at that time. Sexton isn't capable of doing this and his game is far more predictable</S&#079;NG>.

<S&#079;NG>Our best chance of winning is with a 10 who'll read the game well and do the right thing in the right situation</S&#079;NG>, there can be no doubt who that is.



These are the quotes I was replying to.....the implication was that ROG does everything right, manages a game perfectly and does the right thing everytime.....If that is the case how come he hasn't been doing it for Munster???? Does he just follow the gameplan for Munster or is he given the freedom to decide it? If he decides it then how come most people blame McGahan for Munster's problems? If he just does what he is told then does the same not apply to Ireland??

Combatlogo
1st-March-2011, 09:59
[Its a bit of a misconception that ROG kicks the ball all the time, he reads the game and kicks,<S&#079;NG> runs</S&#079;NG> or passes depending on what the smart option is at that time.


Nearly as good as your "Dowling for Ireland campaign".smileys/lol.gif


FWIW, I think O'Gara should start v Wales.

jeepers
1st-March-2011, 10:01
Can Rog handle the physical challenge of the oz, All Blacks and Sa?


Can Sexton handle the pressure ? Can he develop his game management between here and the world cup?


These are only two players fighting for the ten spot.




What do you mean by ROG being able to handle the physical challenge? Do you expect him to start crying when some of their big backrowers thumps him or something? For the record, he hasn't in the past.

shipstirrer
1st-March-2011, 10:04
Can Rog handle the physical challenge of the oz, All
Blacks and Sa?


Can Sexton handle the pressure ? Can he develop his
game management between here and the world cup?


These are only two players fighting for the ten spot.




What do you mean by ROG being
able to handle the physical challenge? Do you expect him
to start crying when some of their big backrowers thumps
him or something? For the record, he hasn't in the past.






ROG has got trampled on in the past.

Benji
1st-March-2011, 10:19
Can Rog handle the physical challenge of the oz, All Blacks and Sa?


Can Sexton handle the pressure ? Can he develop his game management between here and the world cup?


These are only two players fighting for the ten spot.






What do you mean by ROG being able to handle the physical challenge? Do you expect him to start crying when some of their big backrowers thumps him or something? For the record, he hasn't in the past.







Jeepers, Do you think he is up to the challenge physically to play the teams i mentioned in the world cup? Just Rog now and bear in mind that the Backrow is busy firefighting. Would he get turned over in possession or get run over

Luimneach
1st-March-2011, 10:32
There is something wrong if we are saying play one OH over the other based on their ability to face the Physical challenge something very wrong with that logic.

Hugonaut
1st-March-2011, 10:32
Its a bit of a misconception that ROG kicks the ball all the time, he reads the game and kicks, runs or passes depending on what the smart option is at that time. Sexton isn't capable of doing this and his game is far more predictable.

Our best chance of winning is with a 10 who'll read the game well and do the right thing in the right situation, there can be no doubt who that is.


At 10.35 on the clock, Sean O’Brien wins a turnover and we win the ensuing ruck. With Tommy Bowe on his right shoulder and Luke Fitzgerald, Keith Earls, Brian O’Driscoll and Rory Best to his left, facing Ross Ford, Moray Low, Johnie Beatie, Jacobsen and Barclay – three front-rowers – ROG kicks the ball away into the Scottish 22 and Nickie Walker clears to touch inside the Scottish half.

We’ve got five backs up against five forwards in broken play with loads of room off a turnover and ROG kicks it away. Bad call from ROG. To compound it, Richie Gray steals the lineout from in front of O’Connell.

I thought ROG had an excellent game [and as I've said before, as good a defensive game as he has ever had] but you put different commentators on the broadcast, and you get a very different public opinion. He was being lauded for absolutely everything he did on Sunday, even stuff that wasn't a particularly good call.

If instead of Ryle Nugent rhapsodising about 'playing the corners wonderfully well', you had Matt Williams or Will Greenwood asking why he kicked away turnover ball with four of Ireland's outside backs to his left against three Scottish front rows, many wouldn't be quite so laudatory.

EDIT: As with CombatLogo, I think ROG should definitely start against Wales. I'm just not getting as carried away as many on here.

jeepers
1st-March-2011, 10:32
He would get turned over - but pretty much everyone of our backs without support would get turned over. If its not ROG, it will be D'Arcy or BOD (who seem to just defend nowadays as all the attack seems to come from the backrow).

mtcmolloy
1st-March-2011, 10:44
no

blackadder
1st-March-2011, 10:48
I don't think it's the craziest idea I've ever heard.


As someone else said he needs to play there for Leinster first and that's never going to happen so it's a non starter.

outside inside
1st-March-2011, 10:51
He is developing into a top class 10 leave him alone to master that position , his game management willimprove with more game time . Its said that it takes 20 tests b4 a player feels established at Int level Sexton will reach 20 b4 WC kicks off . Mc Fadden , Wallace , Trimble , Spence &amp; Earls can all play 12 just wish he would give one of them a go .

Balla Boy
1st-March-2011, 10:53
I don't think it's the craziest idea I've ever heard.


As someone else said he needs to play there for Leinster first and that's never going to happen so it's a non starter.





Not sure if he would have to do it at club level first, as he wouldn't really be playing 12 in the sense that Darcy is, but as a 2nd 5/8th. Flood, Geraghty, Wilkinson and Catt have all done that for England (with varying levels of success) without a stint at 12 for their club.


I wouldn't underestimate the change that playing with a 2nd 5/8th would involve though - it means a considerable reshaping of the game plan.


No crash/hit up option at 12, and traditionally teams using it have looked to kick more.

Tobyglen
1st-March-2011, 10:56
Forget about it, leave him at 10. 12 is a notoriously hard position to play and takes experience to master.

Benji
1st-March-2011, 11:44
There is something wrong if we are saying play one OH over the other based on their ability to face the Physical challenge something very wrong with that logic.


Not just the physical challenge but its a massive factor when playing the top teams. When we get to play the top sides we arent going to have it our own way so defence will be crucial. Sorry but thoughts of Rog picking himself off the floor and dusting himself off after getting run over seems to have been forgotten by so many here.

Benji
1st-March-2011, 11:53
Why not leave Sexton at 10. It would be a tough position for Johnny to adapt to. I'd be more interested in Mc Fadden getting a run there. Kidney wads never going to use Paddy Wallace so he should have had McFadden playing last wk or on the bench.


He was more of a Centre before Leinster played him on the wing. His looked ok there and has great feet.

slipper1
1st-March-2011, 12:10
So how come he doesn't do it for Munster then or how come we went for leading Italy to being behind when he was on?





Are you f**king stupid or just a WUM ?





Its a bit of a misconception that ROG kicks the ball all the time, <S&#079;NG>he reads the game and kicks, runs or passes depending on what the smart option is at that time. Sexton isn't capable of doing this and his game is far more predictable</S&#079;NG>.

<S&#079;NG>Our best chance of winning is with a 10 who'll read the game well and do the right thing in the right situation</S&#079;NG>, there can be no doubt who that is.



These are the quotes I was replying to.....the implication was that ROG does everything right, manages a game perfectly and does the right thing everytime.....If that is the case how come he hasn't been doing it for Munster???? Does he just follow the gameplan for Munster or is he given the freedom to decide it? If he decides it then how come most people blame McGahan for Munster's problems? If he just does what he is told then does the same not apply to Ireland??





Well you try to imply ROG bad/ Sexton good in everything you post, you can't even acknowledge a MOTM performance. You've come onto a Munster supporters site to WUM about the Munster outhalf, if you want to just b***h and moan about O'Gara head off to leinsterfans.com but the strange thing is they probably wouldn't put up with your rantings.

buck65
1st-March-2011, 14:22
ROG to 12. smileys/redface.gifsmileys/razz.gifsmileys/shock.gif

handslikefeet
1st-March-2011, 14:47
Not sure if he would have to do it at club level first, as he wouldn't really be playing 12 in the sense that Darcy is, but as a 2nd 5/8th. Flood, Geraghty, Wilkinson and Catt have all done that for England (with varying levels of success) without a stint at 12 for their club.


I wouldn't underestimate the change that playing with a 2nd 5/8th would involve though - it means a considerable reshaping of the game plan.


No crash/hit up option at 12, and traditionally teams using it have looked to kick more.





Spot on there mate, he would be a second five. And it would seem to make absolutely no sense, since the gameplan with him at 10 was to run the ball more. Couldn't see any team in rugby going from ball in hand to two frontline kickers in one fell swoop...

Mebawsa Ritchie
1st-March-2011, 14:48
Fluffy white cloud thinking. I like itsmileys/biggrin.gif

http://cdn.thejournal.ie/media/2010/10/Willie-Joe-Padden-300x400.jpg

Daithi
1st-March-2011, 15:28
So how come he doesn't do it for Munster then or how
come we went for leading Italy to being behind when he was
on?







Are you f**king stupid or just a WUM ?




A little from Column A, little from Column B...? smileys/wink.gif


smileys/lol.gifsmileys/lol.gifMore like a good bit from Column A , a good bit from Column B......... and bunch of other rubbish thrown in to mix them all together!! smileys/lol.gifsmileys/lol.gif

sewa
1st-March-2011, 15:36
T


A decent game against Scotland (especially a totally weakened Scotland backline) is not the sign that someone is the solution to all the problems.

I agree with you. ROG needs to start all games between now and the RWC.

Daithi
1st-March-2011, 15:40
Re the Outhalves debate I hate to be definitive about any player as all players (even the greatest) come in and out of form, and different types of gameplans, conditions &amp; oppositions suit different players. However basically:


Rog is a brilliant game reader, kicker, passer and leader. He is an ok runner anda weak tackler.


Sexton is an excellent runner, tackler &amp; athlete. He is an ok kicker &amp;passer (he needs to work on these parts of his game IMHO). He is a weak game reader and is not yet a leader (he's young). (But Sexton's weaknesses are less expoitable than Rog's by an opposition so that has to be factored in)


I like the combo of Sexton starting for 60 and Rog coming on for last 20. Why? cos it plays to both player's strengths &amp; mitigates their weaknesses. I wouldn't opt for ROG after 1 good game. I'd still start Sexton v England, either versus Wales can do a job for us IMHO!!

son-of-munster
1st-March-2011, 15:45
Not sure if he
would have to do it at club level first, as he wouldn't really
be playing 12 in the sense that Darcy is, but as a 2nd
5/8th. Flood, Geraghty, Wilkinson and Catt have all done
that for England (with varying levels of success) without a
stint at 12 for their club.


I wouldn't underestimate the change that playing with a
2nd 5/8th would involve though - it means a considerable
reshaping of the game plan.


No crash/hit up option at 12, and traditionally teams
using it have looked to kick more.





Spot on there mate, he would be a second five. And it
would seem to make absolutely no sense, since the
gameplan with him at 10 was to run the ball more. Couldn't
see any team in rugby going from ball in hand to two
frontline kickers in one fell swoop...

yes he would be a second 5/8 which the aussie's have
proved can work! we have potentially one of the most
exciting back 3's in the 6N's at the moment but that doesn't
matter because the ball rarely gets past midfield. putting
some1 with good hands in there will increase and improve
the ball that our back 3 get ( like when warrick comes in @
second receiver in munster, thats when earls and co look
at their best)

Dunno bout your argument about having 2 frontline kickers
on the pitch, surely they have plans for that, with wallace
being the utility back on the bench??

shipstirrer
1st-March-2011, 15:54
Re the Outhalves debate I hate to be
definitive about any player as all players (even the
greatest) come in and out of form, and different types of
gameplans, conditions & oppositions suit different players.
However basically:


Rog is a brilliant game reader, kicker, passer and
leader. He is an ok runner and*a weak tackler.


Sexton is an excellent runner, tackler & athlete. He is an
ok kicker &passer (he needs to work on these parts of his
game IMHO). He is a weak game reader and is not yet a
leader (he's young). (But Sexton's weaknesses are less
expoitable than Rog's by an opposition so that has to be
factored in)


I like the combo of Sexton starting for 60 and Rog
coming on for last 20. Why? cos it plays to both player's
strengths & mitigates their weaknesses. I wouldn't opt for
ROG after 1 good game. I'd still start Sexton v England,
either versus Wales can do a job for us IMHO!!


I agree with most points you've made there except i think
sexton is an excellant passer- better than rog. his tactical
kicking isnt as good but he doesnt get much of a chance to
work on that- hes obviously been told to run the ball. His
place kicking, especially from long distance, is excellant
when hes on form.

I would start him against wales to let him work on his
'game reading' which everyone seems to think he cant do.
realistically tho Rog will be starting.

Id like to see Ireland try rog at 10 with sexton in first
centre. we'd have rog's tactical kicking and game reading
while sexton can step in to run the ball when necessary. I
can see no reason why sexton couldnt play 12. hes strong,
fast and he can tackle. he also links up with bod very well
for
leinster. Theres no harm in trying this against wales,
especially considering the bad form darcys in.

We'd also have sexton to kick at goal when its out of rog's
distance.

I'm pretty sure deccy wud probably have a break down at
the thought of this radical move. wish we had a coach with
some balls.

Appletart
1st-March-2011, 16:47
Were you drunk when you posted this thread?

1st-March-2011, 16:57
I don't think it's the craziest idea I've ever heard.


As someone else said he needs to play there for
Leinster first and that's never going to happen so it's a non
starter.





Not sure if he would have to do it at club level first, as
he wouldn't really be playing 12 in the sense that Darcy is,
but as a 2nd 5/8th. Flood, Geraghty, Wilkinson and Catt
have all done that for England (with varying levels of
success) without a stint at 12 for their club.


I wouldn't underestimate the change that playing with a
2nd 5/8th would involve though - it means a considerable
reshaping of the game plan.


No crash/hit up option at 12, and traditionally teams
using it have looked to kick more.

would be a useful way for him to be picking up information
from ROG and developing his game. Got to admit I've
always been a fan of the idea of new OHs being brought
through like this - would have been a better idea with
Staunton, as just one example, would have benefited.

I also wouldn't agree he's not physical enough, he's a good
size and this isn't going to be any more physical than the
way he gets targeted by back rows flying at him as an OH.
He's got a better passing and kicking game than d'Arcy and
is a good runner with decent pace - I don't think he's a
limited option or silly suggestion there at all. After all, how
did Paddy Wallace end up there other than being an OH
initially? And Sexton is much more physical than Wallace.

horseofaman
1st-March-2011, 17:30
I don't think it's the craziest idea I've ever heard.



As someone else said he needs to play there for
Leinster first and that's never going to happen so it's a non
starter.







Not sure if he would have to do it at club level first, as
he wouldn't really be playing 12 in the sense that Darcy is,
but as a 2nd 5/8th. Flood, Geraghty, Wilkinson and Catt
have all done that for England (with varying levels of
success) without a stint at 12 for their club.



I wouldn't underestimate the change that playing with a
2nd 5/8th would involve though - it means a considerable
reshaping of the game plan.



No crash/hit up option at 12, and traditionally teams
using it have looked to kick more.




would be a useful way for him to be picking up information
from ROG and developing his game. Got to admit I've
always been a fan of the idea of new OHs being brought
through like this - would have been a better idea with
Staunton, as just one example, would have benefited.

I also wouldn't agree he's not physical enough, he's a good
size and this isn't going to be any more physical than the
way he gets targeted by back rows flying at him as an OH.
He's got a better passing and kicking game than d'Arcy and
is a good runner with decent pace - I don't think he's a
limited option or silly suggestion there at all. After all, how
did Paddy Wallace end up there other than being an OH
initially? And Sexton is much more physical than Wallace.


agree with you there.

shipstirrer
1st-March-2011, 17:31
Id like to see Ireland try rog at 10 with sexton in first
centre. we'd have rog's tactical kicking and game reading
while sexton can step in to run the ball when necessary. I
can see no reason why sexton couldnt play 12. hes strong,
fast and he can tackle. he also links up with bod very well
for
leinster. Theres no harm in trying this against wales,
especially considering the bad form darcys in.

We'd also have sexton to kick at goal when its out of rog's
distance.

I'm pretty sure deccy wud probably have a break down at
the thought of this radical move. wish we had a coach with
some balls.

Consumer
1st-March-2011, 17:43
I could see him at scrumhalf, but as a centre he has nowhere near the physicality required. I mean he's more physical than ROG, but that isn't saying much.

rathbaner
1st-March-2011, 18:33
Deccie never did this with ROG and Warwick at Munster.
Although Dutchy did play that role but it was back in the day when ROG had a lot less experience and the team needed an alternative playmaker.

1st-March-2011, 19:25
He never did it as Munster cos he had Halstead and then
Tipoki to play IC so didn't need to. And I still don't see where
people think the likes of BOD, d'Arcy etc have the physicality
for centre but Sexton doesn't. The lad is 6'1 and 14st7 hardly
small at all and I've seen plenty try to run into him with no
success over the past 12 months. He's definitely good for it,
considering how many players d'Arcy has let run through him
at this level in last 12 months it's not as if we can't afford to
take the risk.

Stringer9
1st-March-2011, 19:28
No, but why can't we move BOD. An excellent palyer, but becomming, with the greatest respect, a bit long in the tooth, he wont be around forever, so we need to explore options outside of him. stroking his ego shouldn't be the number one priority of this team, giving younger players who deserve a go, a chance to play is, or should be what we are looking towards, so it shouldn't be out of the question that he could be moved to 12.

Consumer
1st-March-2011, 19:30
He never did it as Munster cos he had Halstead and then

Tipoki to play IC so didn't need to. And I still don't see where

people think the likes of BOD, d'Arcy etc have the physicality

for centre but Sexton doesn't. The lad is 6'1 and 14st7 hardly

small at all and I've seen plenty try to run into him with no

success over the past 12 months. He's definitely good for it,

considering how many players d'Arcy has let run through him

at this level in last 12 months it's not as if we can't afford to

take the risk.

He is not 14 stone 7. He must have had a fishsupper and lead shoes for that weigh in. No chance.

rathbaner
1st-March-2011, 19:32
No, but why can't we move BOD. An excellent palyer, but becomming, with the greatest respect, a bit long in the tooth, he wont be around forever,


you can post that with with your</span> avatar! smileys/wink.gif

1st-March-2011, 19:49
He never did it as Munster cos he had
Halstead and then
Tipoki to play IC so didn't need to. And I still don't see
where
people think the likes of BOD, d'Arcy etc have the
physicality
for centre but Sexton doesn't. The lad is 6'1 and 14st7
hardly
small at all and I've seen plenty try to run into him with no
success over the past 12 months. He's definitely good for
it,
considering how many players d'Arcy has let run through
him
at this level in last 12 months it's not as if we can't afford to
take the risk.He is not 14 stone 7. He must have
had a fishsupper and lead shoes for that weigh in. No
chance.

what are you basing that on? He definitely looks it,
compare him to players like ROG or P Wallace and you can
see Sexton is quite comfortably bigger.

Jackie Brown
1st-March-2011, 19:56
We have a few centers coming through over the next few years in Ireland. BOD, D'Arce, Wallace at present, McFadden ready to step up, Cave, O'Malley, Spence, L.Marshall in the future. Sexton will be Ireland's no.10 post WC. No need to move him around, D'Arce isn't performing, play Wallace or McFadden (I'd play the latter). BOD is undroppable, which is sad because IMHO we need to develop his successor sooner rather than later.

sewa
1st-March-2011, 19:58
I'd rather Sexton became competent in 1 position before we moved him

Consumer
1st-March-2011, 20:11
He never did it as Munster cos he had

Halstead and then

Tipoki to play IC so didn't need to. And I still don't see

where

people think the likes of BOD, d'Arcy etc have the

physicality

for centre but Sexton doesn't. The lad is 6'1 and 14st7

hardly

small at all and I've seen plenty try to run into him with no

success over the past 12 months. He's definitely good for

it,

considering how many players d'Arcy has let run through

him

at this level in last 12 months it's not as if we can't afford to

take the risk.He is not 14 stone 7. He must have

had a fishsupper and lead shoes for that weigh in. No

chance.



what are you basing that on? He definitely looks it,

compare him to players like ROG or P Wallace and you can

see Sexton is quite comfortably bigger.

I don't think he looks a stone and a half heavier than ROG.

http://www.espnscrum.com/PICTURES/CMS/5600/5616.jpg


That just isn't what 14 and a half stone looks like, even 13 and a half stone is pushing the credibility here.


The players stats have always been rubbish though.

Jackie Brown
1st-March-2011, 20:17
I dunno, he is carrying 2 Tiggers!

Consumer
1st-March-2011, 20:17
Yeah there;s no chance:


http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/51390000/jpg/_51390029_r&#111;nan_j&#111;n.jpg


A stone and a half of difference? Go to a shop and buy a kilogram of lean minced beef, that's 2.2lbs of muscle, now buy ten packs and that's how much muscle Sexton's supposed to have over ROG. Ridiculous.

sewa
1st-March-2011, 20:22
ROG is much better looking too. Has to count for something

Stringer9
1st-March-2011, 20:25
No, but why can't we move BOD. An excellent palyer, but becomming, with the greatest respect, a bit long in the tooth, he wont be around forever,


you can post that with with your</span> avatar! smileys/wink.gif


We've developed that player, we were in that position with Stringer for ages, and we than got TOL, developed him and he got the no. 9 jersey. He's had his chance, many chances, and did well for a while, but is currently off form.

It's another thing entirely, when you've tried players, develop the players at that position, but are struggling for form and there are other players around, regardless of age, who are on form. And as a result we've currently about 4 nicely developed players at SH to choose from.

The same hasn't been done at 13 and it'll come back to haunt us in the years to come.

JoeyFantastic
1st-March-2011, 20:26
ROG is much better looking too. Has to count
for something

To be the part you have to look the part. Sexton will need to
sort out his eyes if he's going to be top level model. Male
modelling has been dominated by one man and five syllables
for the last decade.

Hawkeye
1st-March-2011, 20:29
Quite simply No, No and No!!

Waterfordlad
1st-March-2011, 20:41
No too

Mickc10
1st-March-2011, 22:06
Definitely think the better is moving BOD to 12 rather then
looking for an alternative 12 to Darcy. Im curious to know
why are people so sure that BOD would be totally against the
option also? He surely knows himself that he doesn't have that
turn of foot he once had so may see 12 as a good option for
the remainder of his career.

mtcmolloy
2nd-March-2011, 07:30
The only reason bod is reluctant to move from 13 is because the lucky number 13 is part of his brand management.
it stands to reason that the outside man would have greater speed over long distance, with 12 having greater speed over short distance. Ala Guscott/Carling.. Williams/Smith.. (seems logical to me anyway). Earls works in this category, but his handling isn't world class. BoD /dorce/ or mcF at 12 would be fine. Not sure spence has done enough to have a go at 13, but that is where I would see him rather than at 12.

For me the solution is to swap darce and bod, and throw in mcfadden/spence somewhere during the summer.


To say darcy is a poor defender because of rougerie is balls-ology.


(incidentally Guscott never wore 13 due to superstitions, despite playing there for 60 odd times for blighty)

mtcmolloy
2nd-March-2011, 07:57
Yeah there;s no chance:


http://unity.lv/newsimgs/269/023/269023/main/2.jpg


A stone and a half of difference? Go to a shop and buy a kilogram of lean minced beef, that's 2.2lbs of muscle, now buy ten packs and that's how much muscle Sexton's supposed to have over ROG. Ridiculous.



sexton is 6'2


That's why he looks equal in size to rog. But he's not. He's significantly bigger. it's an optical illusion.
rog:
Height 1.83 m (6' 0")
Weight 84 kg (13 st 2 lb)


JS
Height 1.88 m (6' 2")
Weight 92 kg (14 st 6 lb)



get over it.

Consumer
2nd-March-2011, 15:30
Yeah there;s no chance:


http://unity.lv/newsimgs/269/023/269023/main/2.jpg


A stone and a half of difference? Go to a shop and buy a kilogram of lean minced beef, that's 2.2lbs of muscle, now buy ten packs and that's how much muscle Sexton's supposed to have over ROG. Ridiculous.



sexton is 6'2


That's why he looks equal in size to rog. But he's not. He's significantly bigger. it's an optical illusion.
rog:
Height 1.83 m (6' 0")
Weight 84 kg (13 st 2 lb)


JS
Height 1.88 m (6' 2")
Weight 92 kg (14 st 6 lb)



get over it.

He is in his dreams. He's usually listed at 6'1'', so an inch of difference accounts for him somehow being a stone and a half of muscle heavier, despite if anything him looking smaller than ROG? You'd just have to laugh at him thinking anyone would believe that.

mtcmolloy
2nd-March-2011, 16:06
http://www.munsterfans.com//uploads/images/mtcmolloy/924_388496.jpg


wallace, sexton, reddan, kearney . .

Where is he listed as 6'1, Consumer?
No, I'd say he's closer to 6'3. He is back left here dwarfing Kearney who is 6'1. You are wrong. He actually looks 6'4 here. Why don't you tweet him and ask him. You seem like the sort of chap who'd have the neck to do that . .


Not that it matters two f*cks.
If you want a big unit at 12, pick the lad from saints.

2nd-March-2011, 17:10
Yeah there;s
no chance:
http://unity.lv/newsimgs/269/023/269023/main/2.jpg
<br / border=">A stone and a half of difference?* Go to a shop and
buy a kilogram of lean minced beef, that's 2.2lbs of
muscle, now buy ten packs and that's how much muscle
Sexton's supposed to have over ROG. Ridiculous.



sexton is 6'2


That's why he looks equal in size to rog. But he's not.
He's significantly bigger. it's an optical illusion. rog:Height
1.83 m (6' 0") Weight 84 kg (13 st 2 lb)


JSHeight 1.88 m (6' 2") Weight 92 kg (14 st 6 lb)


get over it.He is in his dreams. He's usually
listed at 6'1'', so an inch of difference accounts for him
somehow being a stone and a half of muscle heavier,
despite if anything him looking smaller than ROG? You'd
just have to laugh at him thinking anyone would believe
that.

taking a photo where the players bodies are clearly at
different angles, one is slouching and the other upright and
you have no idea how far apart etc they are has no value
whatsoever to judging their size. Take a look at your first
photo and compare him to d'Arcy if you're going to take
non comparable posture pictures. d'Arcy is supposedly
similar weight at around 14st and much shorter yet looks
no bulkier either, which would equally suggest the clearly
taller Sexton must be at least the same weight + a bit
more (due to being taller).

Bosco
2nd-March-2011, 17:28
Sexton has no shoulders, even with shoulder pads on

Consumer
2nd-March-2011, 19:03
http://www.munsterfans.com//uploads/images/mtcmolloy/924_388496.jpg


wallace, sexton, reddan, kearney . .

Where is he listed as 6'1, Consumer?
No, I'd say he's closer to 6'3. He is back left here dwarfing Kearney who is 6'1. You are wrong. He actually looks 6'4 here. Why don't you tweet him and ask him. You seem like the sort of chap who'd have the neck to do that . .


Not that it matters two f*cks.
If you want a big unit at 12, pick the lad from saints.



The simple fact is that Jonathan Sexton is not 14 and a half stone. He doesn't have big arms, big legs, big chest, wide shoulders, f**k all muscle. Someone who is 14 and a half stone at just over 6' is a genuinely big man. Here's Contepomi who's 6' and just over 14 stone for example:

http://www.rbs6nati&#111;ns.com/images/news/FelipeC&#111;ntepomiPA.jpg

Sexton has, if anything, a slighter build than ROG. ROG has a visible chest and bigger arms, so I'd believe he's 13 and a half stone.

I don't think someone with Sexton's bone structure ever could be 14 and a half stone to be honest, he has a very slight frame. Narrow shoulders, thin wrists etc.

And Darcy is very bulky, I believe right away he's 14 stone, consider that at the same height Eoin Reddan is claiming he's only 7lbs lighter at 13 and a half stone and you can see that some players mess around with their stats.

Consumer
2nd-March-2011, 19:10
Look, Sexton is about 2'' taller (seems to be in his giraffe neck), but look how much wider ROG's shoulders are, and how much bigger his chest is. Sexton definitely isn't carrying that stone and a half of musclehe's supposed to have on ROG in his torso, and he has chicken legs so what's going on?
http://www.irishrugby.ie/images/news/R&#111;nanOGara_J&#111;nathanSext&#111;n_Irelandtraining_D&#111;nnybro okSA.jpg

joconnell
2nd-March-2011, 19:39
This explains it. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25N-4zrk390&amp;feature=playe%20r_detailpage#t=33s%20)

born to hula
2nd-March-2011, 19:54
smileys/lol.gif

Jackie Brown
2nd-March-2011, 20:00
COnsumer why do you have so many photographs of Sexyton and ROG??? DO you enjoy comparing their muscle mass??? smileys/shock.gifsmileys/lol.gif

Consumer
2nd-March-2011, 20:15
This explains it. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25N-4zrk390&amp;feature=playe%20r_detailpage#t=33s%20)


I took that into account you muppet, that's why I said he's clearly an inch or two taller. Jaysus... you might want to study that video a bit yourself!


COnsumer why do you have so many photographs of
Sexyton and ROG??? DO you enjoy comparing their muscle mass??? smileys/shock.gifsmileys/lol.gif


There's this thing called Google Image search.

sewa
2nd-March-2011, 20:47
Yeah its definitely not some weird sex thing...

McCloud
2nd-March-2011, 21:31
Getting close to NWS here...

joconnell
2nd-March-2011, 22:15
I took that into account you muppet, that's why I said he's clearly an inch or two taller. Jaysus... you might want to study that video a bit yourself!


Ah yeah that's true. Sexton's a bit gangly and runs a bit like a duck but muscle's more compact and heavier than fat so someone can still be pretty heavy weight wise on a small frame.

LondonMunster
2nd-March-2011, 22:52
No

NotreDameRFC
4th-March-2011, 12:10
Having stood behind ROG in a queue for coffee in Avoca last monday... im taller than him.. where as standing beside Sexton as my son got his autograph after a game he is definately taller than me byt at least 2/3".


(please allow a variance of 2/3" on this guesstimate)

Upfront_1979
4th-March-2011, 13:00
I am 6'2" and 141/2 stone. I am not anoticable large manand I would have a very similar frame to Sexton. However his 141/2 stoneis muscle, mine is 'Ahem' not.


Not that his weight is that important. we are talking about physicality and Sexton has defended powerfully against centres, hookers, backrows without too much problems. in fact one of his strengths is his physicality in the tackle.

Benji
4th-March-2011, 13:05
Would still say Sexton togs out bigger. I'd say there is over a stone of difference. Good technique in the tackle is worth a bit of weight. Mad to see him lifting and driving back the secondrow in the Italian game.

Consumer
5th-March-2011, 01:41
I am 6'2" and 141/2 stone. I am not anoticable large manand I would have a very similar frame to Sexton. However his 141/2 stoneis muscle, mine is 'Ahem' not.


Not that his weight is that important. we are talking about physicality and Sexton has defended powerfully against centres, hookers, backrows without too much problems. in fact one of his strengths is his physicality in the tackle.

No offense you're probably fat compared to a professional athlete. Sexton has no muscle, look at those chicken legs:

http://www.irishrugby.ie/images/news/R&#111;nanOGara_J&#111;nathanSext&#111;n_Irelandtraining_D&#111;nnybro okSA.jpg


And narrow shoulders. no visible chest etc. I'd be surprised if he's over 13 and a half stone.

I can't see Sexton having anywhere near the phsicality required. Making one of two tackles a match relatively fresh is one thing, he'll be called on to do a lot more at 12. I doubt he'd accept it anyway, he'll want all the glory of outhalf.

Dowlinz
8th-March-2011, 11:42
Would appear with todays selection that ROG is firmly the number #1 choice for now.

Consumer
8th-March-2011, 16:49
People are thick. Everytime one of them has a decent game they think the other one can't tie up his bootlaces. Goldfish memories. Just play whichever of them is in better form heading into the match.

ustix
8th-March-2011, 16:52
People are thick</span>. Everytime one of them has a decent game they think the other one can't tie up his bootlaces. Goldfish memories. Just play whichever of them is in better form heading into the match.

Let's be 'aving some names thensmileys/c&#111;nfused.gif

Consumer
8th-March-2011, 16:54
People are thick</span>. Everytime one of them has a decent game they think the other one can't tie up his bootlaces. Goldfish memories. Just play whichever of them is in better form heading into the match.

Let's be 'aving some names thensmileys/c&#111;nfused.gif


Just draw a Venn diagram according to the guidelines of my penultimate post.

ustix
8th-March-2011, 16:58
People are thick</span>. Everytime one of them has a decent game they think the other one can't tie up his bootlaces. Goldfish memories. Just play whichever of them is in better form heading into the match.

Let's be 'aving some names thensmileys/c&#111;nfused.gif


Just draw a Venn diagram according to the guidelines of my penultimate post.

Not prepared to Vennt some spleen then....

Consumer
8th-March-2011, 17:01
People are thick</span>. Everytime one of them has a decent game they think the other one can't tie up his bootlaces. Goldfish memories. Just play whichever of them is in better form heading into the match.

Let's be 'aving some names thensmileys/c&#111;nfused.gif


Just draw a Venn diagram according to the guidelines of my penultimate post.

Not prepared to Vennt some spleen then....


I wasn't thinking of anyone in particular, more what I read in the papers than anything. We have two World Class outhalfs with basically the same skills, so just play whoever's playing better. They basically play exactly the same way for Ireland because they both have to execute Kidney's gameplan. They just play different for their provinces because they play in very different teams.

Dowlinz
8th-March-2011, 17:06
I really wouldn't call Sexton world class by any stretch, lets be serious here. Potentially world class sure but he definitely isn't at that level yet.

Consumer
8th-March-2011, 17:08
I really wouldn't call Sexton world class by any stretch, lets be serious here.


Being serious here, ever since that 40m drop goal in the Heineken Cup final he's just been unreal. Incredible goalkicker (look at the New Zealand game), he's probably going to lead Leinster to another Heineken Cup this year... don't know how anyone could deny it really.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNAB4Ru7VwY