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McCloud
2nd-March-2011, 07:48
Heaslip laying down gauntlet with his show of player power
By David Kelly



Tuesday March 01 2011


Sometimes perception is everything. As Ireland imploded during the 2007 World Cup, marooned in a soulless warehouse far from the civilised world, not one player from this privileged group sought to question what most on the outside perceived to be a rapidly disintegrating escapade.


Not one player -- or coach for the matter -- questioned the suitability of the squad's conditioning or the fact that the first-choice XV had been effectively swathed in cotton wool since the conclusion of that year's Six Nations.


The ultimate result? Ireland performed dismally at the World Cup and yet, astonishingly, few players or coaches sought to intelligently assess a freefall into decline that was only arrested when Eddie O'Sullivan left the head position following the 2008 championship.


Contrast this prolonged period of obsequious silence with the blizzard of mixed messages emanating from the Irish camp this past month and, most spectacularly, the forthright challenge to the coach's authority by one of its highest-paid and highest-profile players.


Ireland are struggling to implement a game-plan and both the players and coaches are becoming increasingly tetchy as a result; witness coach and captain's wide variation in addressing indiscipline.


The threat to morale within the squad is, as yet, intangible.


But it is difficult not to reach a conclusion that matters are now resting delicately upon the sharpest of knife edges.


Dynamic


Jamie Heaslip's utterances are at odds with the squad dynamic. In directly questioning why his Leinster colleagues Fergus McFadden and Jonny Sexton were excluded from Sunday's team to play Scotland, he laid down the gauntlet to Kidney.


And it was particularly vivid as he recalled his own demotion during the 2009 Grand Slam success.


"The coach has his reason for doing things," Heaslip told RTE's Tracy Piggott. "If you reel back to the Grand Slam, he did something similar to me. I thought I was going well and he put me on the bench against Scotland.


"You can't really do anything about it. Yeah, you can talk to him but you're not going to change his mind. That's what I said to the boys. It's probably worth your while having a chat with him, not an argument, just a pretty frank discussion.


"I'm sure they'll do than and, in Jonny's case, just prepare to be ready to go when he's given the chance. And in Fergus' case, he'll probably go back and play with Leinster this weekend, take his chance there, play his game and just do what he's been doing.


"You don't know the reasons why he's let other players in. But he's done it. And they just need to keep doing what they've been doing. Because the two boys have been playing well."


As a future Ireland captain, his comments could merely be interpreted as over-arching loyalty to close friends and colleagues as opposed to an act of treacherous treason. The reaction of the coach when he hears the comments would make for compulsive viewing as his coaching career has rarely brooked any forthright dissension from within the ranks, particularly when it comes to something as fundamentally definitive as selection policy.


And the fact that he alighted upon the critical out-half selection also skirts, none too subtly, the ongoing contentious issues about how Ireland have been struggling to leaven their expansive style with smarter play.


The current Irish captain also alluded to the manner in which his team needed to rein in their at times crazily ambitious play, particularly when within their own half.


Solidarity with Heaslip? Perhaps. However, O'Driscoll's stunning declaration, for the second time in three matches, that players should be looking at themselves could have been applied most particularly to his potential future successor as captain of the national team. For Heaslip was guilty of transgressing for two of the blatant penal

Dumptruck
2nd-March-2011, 07:53
Another load of waffle from Kelly.

The Blackness
2nd-March-2011, 07:56
Mountains and molehills spring to mind here.

Viigand
2nd-March-2011, 08:00
How is he making a story out of that...I don't think Heaslip has said anything contraversial..must be a slow news day.

tmunster
2nd-March-2011, 08:04
trying to stir it up big time here Mr Kelly

Tobyglen
2nd-March-2011, 08:08
Nothing article, if we had squeezed past the French his comments would have been ignored.

mtcmolloy
2nd-March-2011, 08:18
Of course it is. That's what modern life is about. Reality TV, salacious headlines. Anything to sell a frikken newspaper.
to say that this ireland team is not improving with each game is Boll o0x.

if they are having handbags, BFD! (big deal).. Has anyone here ever been on a team where everyone liked each other?


I doubt if the kiwis are always 'hanging out' together. This story only grows legs because of the media, and sites like this one.


No player is bigger than the team, and as soon as players realise that, the team will perform as it should.


Get selected, represent your country, try to do better. Else STFU

Benji
2nd-March-2011, 08:21
Crap nothing article. All hearsay

AdolphusGrigson
2nd-March-2011, 08:42
Time will tell, but Heaslip's remarks ""You don't know the reasons why he's let other players in. But he's done it. " is perhaps a slip of the tongue butperhaps suggests dissension.


As someone said abovenobody would give a flying feck if they had beaten France - but they didnt and they are not playing well overall - so any factors suggesting disharmony are (rightly) going to be seized on by the media.


They shouldshut the feck up and get their act together.

outside inside
2nd-March-2011, 08:43
There appears to be a definate agenda from certain journo's against Kidney and his Mng style subs etc . Anything being said at the moment is twisted to try and make it look like the players and Mng are at odds .There is also little appreciation of how good some of Ire's attacking play has been and how problem areas and cover have been quitely addressed .

Hugged Rugger
2nd-March-2011, 09:08
If you want an example of how not to write an article you just have to look at his efforts on Monday, talk about trying to sound intellectual.


http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/six-nations/comment-an (http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/six-nations/comment-analysis/ogara-walks-walk-but-shuns-top-10-talk-2559065.html) alysis/ogara-walks-walk-but-shuns-top-10-talk-2559065.html

Red October
2nd-March-2011, 09:09
Journos have only one overriding mission in life: to get
more column inches published than their
colleagues/peers/rivals. This is typical Indo tabloid story-
making. Put it on paper often enough and it becomes true.

That RTE interview with Heaslip had nothing in it for which
Heaslip deserves to be criticised, let alone pilloried.

I would call into question the wisdom and value of tweeting
during a tournament - the Welsh have banned players from
Twitter for duration of 6N and I think they were right to.

Paper never refused ink. Screens never refused
keystrokes.

They just keep piling on the reasons not to buy the Indo.
Can't help themselves...

eddie
2nd-March-2011, 09:17
Are you a mod McC? Why would you post such a nothing
article and try stir up controversy with that thread title?

David Kelly has proven himself time and again to have a very
poor understanding regarding rugby and writes poor drivel.

AdolphusGrigson
2nd-March-2011, 09:27
Making generalised statements about journalists does not explain why Heaslip said what he did which Kelly is quite right in pointing out is inappropriate.


It is a reasonable article, if the players jabber and contracdict themsleves which happened earlier it would be a strange press that didnt report it.


In line with some of the old chestnuts rolled out here attacking Kelly - here's another - dont shoot the messenger.

99_oK?
2nd-March-2011, 09:40
While Heaslip may be OK to privately ponder why a few players got dropped (or a few others didn't.....), he should also heed his captain's advice.


People in glasshouses, etc.....


As for a bit of talk, aggro or even dissension - fine if it get's 'em to up the performance.


Best advice for Heaslip (& anyone else thinking about it...) would be STFU and get on with it....!

Red October
2nd-March-2011, 09:44
Pointing out that Heaslip might have better chosen his
words, I would not take issue with. I agree with Kelly on
the tweeting issue, BTW. A distraction the players could do
without.

But Kelly's interpretation of Heaslips comments I find to be
completely overblown and very much slanted to suit
whatever his agenda may be. No matter how often I read
them or listen to them in the context of the question that
was put to him, I find nothing particularly disturbing in
them.

"Heaslip's explosive comments"; his "forthright challenge to
the coach's authority"...??? "O'Driscoll's stunning
declaration...???"

Tabloid muckraking at it's worst. And if I could shoot the
messenger for perpetrating that, frankly; I would. He's not
merely carrying the message - he's massaging it.

He's not communicating it, he's spinning it.

Meaty
2nd-March-2011, 09:46
Mountain out of a molehill, amazing how the same journos who were fawning over the fantastic team spirit that Kidney helped revive in 2009 are looking for the slightest dissenting remark from camp to pick away at it now.

Interesting to see Jamie Heaslip's blog on the IT website. He took it on himself to reply to a few criticisms in the comments below the original article:


"Letís clear something up here. At no time did I question any
selection issues. I merely said the lads who had been dropped showed a
great attitude in training in what would naturally be considered a tough
time for them. </span>
I then said it showed our strength in the squad to bring in players
such as Tommy and ROG. Why people like to twist words and put whatever
spin they care to on them baffles me.


Also, I donít know what everyone thinks but, yes, it was a shaky
performance. We donít have tunnel vision and the mistakes will be
acknowledged. That said, the bottom like really is the result, no?</span>"

Bit silly to bother replying to criticisms like that, think he did the same after the game on twitter.

http://www.irishtimes.com/blogs/jamieheaslip/2011/02/28/afte r-a-mixed-weekend-its-time-for-plan-b/

AdolphusGrigson
2nd-March-2011, 09:53
If Heaslip has a problem with Kelly's interpetation of his wordsI'm sure he will share that with us.

eddie
2nd-March-2011, 10:04
Making generalised
statements about journalists does not explain why Heaslip
said what he did which Kelly is quite right in pointing out is
inappropriate.


It is a reasonable article, if the players jabber and
contracdict themsleves which happened earlier it would be
a strange press that didnt report it.


In line with some of the old chestnuts rolled out here
attacking Kelly - here's another - dont shoot the
messenger.*


*

David is that you smileys/lol.gif

You are right at home with that rag the indo. Have you had
to make any retractions lately or is that all in the past

If you get dropped ask the coach why. this is a nothing
bulls**te article by a useless soccer jurno



smileys/rolleyes.gif

Dowlinz
2nd-March-2011, 10:22
The media do seem intent to make a story out of this don't they? And its not just the Indo doing it either.

I think its poor to twist what players say and will result in the end of guys like ROG and Heaslip coming out and speaking frankly and honestly because it'll be twisted to high even. Gone will be off the cuff twitter communication as well for the same reason.

Soon it'll be like soccer where every player babbles with the same "at the end of the day" "its about the team" sort of nonsense phrases without saying anything at all.


I appreciate Heaslip honest assessment and don't think he said anything untoward, as do I think responding to fans twitter comments to be a nice touch of interaction between player and fan, these are the fans paying to watch them play so 200 character now and again to them isn't asking too much.

Journalists trying to cause trouble for them doing this are the ones that need to cop on.

AdolphusGrigson
2nd-March-2011, 10:47
There is problem with the line below and it is notof Kelly's making.It is open to interpetation both ways - those coming in are not good enough butthose being dropped are - and particulalryin this casehe's pointing to the dropping of 2 Leinster players.Heaslip simply needs to say cleary - if he's concerned - as to what he means. If he doesnt Kelly and others herewho seem to have drummed up some moral indignation against a free press- may wellcontinue to speculate.


"You don't know the reasons why he's let other players in. "

bbhead
2nd-March-2011, 10:55
Its getting harder and harder to be interested in the Irish
team, for me at least. I wish they'd all shut up when it comes
to the media and just get on with it.

JoeyFantastic
2nd-March-2011, 11:01
Its getting harder and harder to be
interested in the Irish
team, for me at least. I wish they'd all shut up when it comes
to the media and just get on with it.

Yeah, after the Aviva fiasco you'd think the IRFU and the
players would be courting public support, not trying to
alienate it. If players want debate, they should follow
Kearney's lead and do it behind closed doors, imo. Not sure
what Heaslip (or anyone) has to gain by going off message
mid championship.

Balla Boy
2nd-March-2011, 11:47
There is problem with the line below and it is notof Kelly's making.It is open to interpetation both ways - those coming in are not good enough butthose being dropped are - and particulalryin this casehe's pointing to the dropping of 2 Leinster players.Heaslip simply needs to say cleary - if he's concerned - as to what he means. If he doesnt Kelly and others herewho seem to have drummed up some moral indignation against a free press- may wellcontinue to speculate.


"You don't know the reasons why he's let other players in. "





If you want it to be a problem you can read it as one. Just as easy to readwhat he saidas meaning that players who are dropped won't always appreciate the reasons why, but have no option but to re-apply themselves and try to get back in.

DJLethal173
2nd-March-2011, 11:47
Kelly is a waster anyway! If you want good rugby writing,
read Farrelly, Ward, or my personal favorite, Thornley. The
rest either apply gobs**te logic to the most ordinary
concepts or discussions.

Another example of Kelly's stupidity here in a January
article:

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/heineken-
cup/david-kelly-chief-sports-analysis-writer-2501898.html

Dougie not delivering? Hayes not competing at the highest
level? Ignorant comments from a sub-standard
journalist...irrespective of what title is on the front of his
desk.

AdolphusGrigson
2nd-March-2011, 12:02
I personally have no interest in trawling through his previous efforts just remarking that the point he makes in relation to Heaslip above is a reasonable one.


...whether he wrote last week or last year that Heaslip ate his hamster I could not give a flying feck about.

shipstirrer
2nd-March-2011, 12:07
I'd be more concerned with the comments that o'gara has
been making about sexton after every game... the media
wouldn't want to point that out would they....

In the most recent comment from the arrogant rog after
the scotland game he said he could see johnny was
"learning" after he put a lovely kick into the corner at the
end. Why is he opening his gob in relation to sexton at all?
he should focus on his own "master class" game,

By the way, there was no appraise given to sexton for his
kick by Ryle "i cant shut the f**k up" Nugent. Although he
was quick to lick rog's h**e every time the ball touched his
shiny boots. The boots which ryle probably shined.

Cowboy
2nd-March-2011, 12:25
I'd be more concerned with the
comments that o'gara has
been making about sexton after every game... the media
wouldn't want to point that out would they....

In the most recent comment from the arrogant rog after
the scotland game he said he could see johnny was
"learning" after he put a lovely kick into the corner at the
end. Why is he opening his gob in relation to sexton at all?
he should focus on his own "master class" game,

By the way, there was no appraise given to sexton for his
kick by Ryle "i cant shut the f**k up" Nugent. Although he
was quick to lick rog's h**e every time the ball touched his
shiny boots. The boots which ryle probably shined.


106 caps for Ireland on one side and 14 on the other. Plus
Rog has almost 8 years more experience than Jonny right
now. These facts count for nothing no?

shipstirrer
2nd-March-2011, 12:32
I'd be more
concerned with the
comments that o'gara has
been making about sexton after every game... the media
wouldn't want to point that out would they....

In the most recent comment from the arrogant rog after
the scotland game he said he could see johnny was
"learning" after he put a lovely kick into the corner at the
end. Why is he opening his gob in relation to sexton at all?
he should focus on his own "master class" game,

By the way, there was no appraise given to sexton for his
kick by Ryle "i cant shut the f**k up" Nugent. Although he
was quick to lick rog's h**e every time the ball touched his
shiny boots. The boots which ryle probably shined.


106 caps for Ireland on one side and 14 on the other. Plus
Rog has almost 8 years more experience than Jonny right
now. These facts count for nothing no?

Doesnt matter if he has 1000 caps. Its not his place to be
judging his team mates. That's the coach's job.

BOD didn't mention any names when saying certain players
were giving away far too many penalties and have to fight
for their shirt, did he?

Cowboy
2nd-March-2011, 12:42
I'd be more
concerned with the
comments that o'gara has
been making about sexton after every game... the media
wouldn't want to point that out would they....

In the most recent comment from the arrogant rog after
the scotland game he said he could see johnny was
"learning" after he put a lovely kick into the corner at the
end. Why is he opening his gob in relation to sexton at all?
he should focus on his own "master class" game,

By the way, there was no appraise given to sexton for his
kick by Ryle "i cant shut the f**k up" Nugent. Although he
was quick to lick rog's h**e every time the ball touched his
shiny boots. The boots which ryle probably shined.


106 caps for Ireland on one side and 14 on the other. Plus
Rog has almost 8 years more experience than Jonny right
now. These facts count for nothing no?

Doesnt matter if he has 1000 caps. Its not his place to be
judging his team mates. That's the coach's job.

BOD didn't mention any names when saying certain players
were giving away far too many penalties and have to fight
for their shirt, did he?


One of the most experienced and senior Irish players
endorses the man he's fighting for a starting jersey with.
ROG himself even said in the aftermath of the game there is
no 'them and us' divide between the two lads. If I was
Sexton I'd be delighted that ROG spoke highly of me, and
vice versa for that matter. But, look for controversy
anywhere you wish, it's stated in your username after all

shipstirrer
2nd-March-2011, 12:55
I'd be more
concerned with the
comments that o'gara has
been making about sexton after every game... the media
wouldn't want to point that out would they....

In the most recent comment from the arrogant rog after
the scotland game he said he could see johnny was
"learning" after he put a lovely kick into the corner at the
end. Why is he opening his gob in relation to sexton at all?
he should focus on his own "master class" game,

By the way, there was no appraise given to sexton for his
kick by Ryle "i cant shut the f**k up" Nugent. Although he
was quick to lick rog's h**e every time the ball touched his
shiny boots. The boots which ryle probably shined.


106 caps for Ireland on one side and 14 on the other. Plus
Rog has almost 8 years more experience than Jonny right
now. These facts count for nothing no?

Doesnt matter if he has 1000 caps. Its not his place to be
judging his team mates. That's the coach's job.

BOD didn't mention any names when saying certain players
were giving away far too many penalties and have to fight
for their shirt, did he?


One of the most experienced and senior Irish players
endorses the man he's fighting for a starting jersey with.
ROG himself even said in the aftermath of the game there
is
no 'them and us' divide between the two lads. If I was
Sexton I'd be delighted that ROG spoke highly of me, and
vice versa for that matter. But, look for controversy
anywhere you wish, it's stated in your username after
all

He hasn't spoke highly of him. It was a patronising
comment to say hes "learning". If you look at the overall
gist of rog's comments its clear he doesnt have much
respect for sexton.
Rog said last week it took him a while to understand why
he was been left out but then looking ahead to the WC he
realised why. Effectively suggesting that starting sexton
was nothing but a mere experiment. In that was the case
why was wallace never giving the same chance?

The reason sexton was starting was that he was playing
much better rugby than rog...and has been for a good 2
years now. But Rog would never admit that he was a
genuine second choice. Sexton did not mention Rog once
during his reign at 10 btw.

McCloud
2nd-March-2011, 12:57
Think this is the thread (http://www.munsterfans.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28570&amp;KW=Rog&amp;TPN=8) you are looking for stirrer for the above discussion.

shipstirrer
2nd-March-2011, 13:01
Think this is the
TID=28570&KW=Rog&TPN=8">thread (http://www.munsterfans.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?
<br / target=) you are looking
for stirrer for the above discussion.

I just think its ridiculous to be looking into heaslips comments
in the media when o'gara has been much more
controversial...for a number of weeks now.

RichardP
2nd-March-2011, 13:12
Think this is the

TID=28570&amp;KW=Rog&amp;TPN=8"&gt;thread (http://www.munsterfans.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?%0D%3Cbr%20/%20target=) you are looking

for stirrer for the above discussion.



I just think its ridiculous to be looking into heaslips comments

in the media when o'gara has been much more

controversial...for a number of weeks now.
I'd say he has the right, as a vice -captain of the team and a senior member of the squad, to comment on Sexton - and his comments were positive. I fail to see what has you so upset unless you're seeing 'Reds under the beds'.
O'Gara has been anything but controversial.
Kelly's article is not inconsistent with those of a few other media types. Joanne Cantwell did her level best on 'Against the Head' to get Glennon, Sheahan and Fanning to say there was dissension in the ranks. When even Fanning wasn't biting she seemed lost as to where else to go with her questions.

duffer09
2nd-March-2011, 13:12
Did you see who ROG ran to after the game... straight to Sexton. Compare the ROG/Sexton relationship to the DH/ROG era, they seem to be quite good buddies. Both want the jersey, both willing to fight for it with a mutual respect for the other.... Ireland are the winner on this one and no doubt the media will spin it around and around

mtcmolloy
2nd-March-2011, 13:42
RoG was doing major flesh pressing too after the game, with the camera following him around.. Looked like a man with an agenda. Like a BODesque charm campaign.. Sharp contrast to his slapped arse look when M philips offered him a handshake..

Waterfordlad
2nd-March-2011, 13:49
The reason sexton was starting was that he was playing
much better rugby than rog...and has been for a good 2
years now.





Don't agree SS. The mgmt had to give JS gametime to help him make the leap to international level, it wasn't due to ROG being better or worse. We need 2 10's - and the competition has brought the best out of ROG (and it's far better than JS in my opinion), please don't be so blinkered

Benji
2nd-March-2011, 13:53
Think this is the
TID=28570&amp;KW=Rog&amp;TPN=8"&gt;thread (http://www.munsterfans.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?<br / target=) you are looking
for stirrer for the above discussion.

I just think its ridiculous to be looking into heaslips comments
in the media when o'gara has been much more
controversial...for a number of weeks now.


O'Gara let himself down after the scots game when saying that if he had played earlier they would have won. Very disrespectful of Sexton but would have no problem with his comments at the weekend all positive. They looked ok at the final whistle and a two players helping each other going forward is whats needed.


Players should never put other players down in public.

2nd-March-2011, 14:39
Did you see who ROG ran to after the game... straight to Sexton. Compare the ROG/Sexton relationship to the DH/ROG era, they seem to be quite good buddies. Both want the jersey, both willing to fight for it with a mutual respect for the other.... Ireland are the winner on this one and no doubt the media will spin it around and around


DH and ROG were good friends

markc
2nd-March-2011, 17:28
Pointing out that Heaslip might
have better chosen his
words, I would not take issue with. I agree with Kelly on
the tweeting issue, BTW. A distraction the players could do
without.

But Kelly's interpretation of Heaslips comments I find to be
completely overblown and very much slanted to suit
whatever his agenda may be. No matter how often I read
them or listen to them in the context of the question that
was put to him, I find nothing particularly disturbing in
them.

"Heaslip's explosive comments"; his "forthright challenge to
the coach's authority"...??? "O'Driscoll's stunning
declaration...???"

Tabloid muckraking at it's worst. And if I could shoot the
messenger for perpetrating that, frankly; I would. He's not
merely carrying the message - he's massaging it.

He's not communicating it, he's spinning it.


+1. good post...

LeinsterNeilBoston
3rd-March-2011, 02:10
I'm starting to wonder which is more annoying, munster
fans arguing that ROG is perfect of Leinster fans arguing
that Sexton is perfect.
Going forward to the WC, I think Sexton should play out
the 6N, but let ROG start the warm up games. If ROG
plays well throughout, the Jerseys his to lose. He proved
last week that after a little time in the cold he can still come
in and do exactly what he does. He wasn't as wonderful as
the munster mafia would have you believe (as no Leinster
player has been as good as the leinster louts would have
you believe... bar D'Arcy obviously, we all know he's a bit
sh1te right now) but he showed better composure.. in other
words his experience shone (hence why let Sexton play out
the 6N, he needs to get closer to that experience - I hope
him and ROG and whoever might be best suited in the Irish
set up are having video sessions together to show the
aspects of the others game that they could work on to
make themselves more complete). That said, there's a bit
of a difference between Scotland and France.

Dowlinz
3rd-March-2011, 12:26
I'd be more

concerned with the

comments that o'gara has

been making about sexton after every game... the media

wouldn't want to point that out would they....



In the most recent comment from the arrogant rog after

the scotland game he said he could see johnny was

"learning" after he put a lovely kick into the corner at the

end. Why is he opening his gob in relation to sexton at all?

he should focus on his own "master class" game,



By the way, there was no appraise given to sexton for his

kick by Ryle "i cant shut the f**k up" Nugent. Although he

was quick to lick rog's h**e every time the ball touched his

shiny boots. The boots which ryle probably shined.





106 caps for Ireland on one side and 14 on the other. Plus

Rog has almost 8 years more experience than Jonny right

now. These facts count for nothing no?



Doesnt matter if he has 1000 caps. Its not his place to be

judging his team mates. That's the coach's job.



BOD didn't mention any names when saying certain players

were giving away far too many penalties and have to fight

for their shirt, did he?





One of the most experienced and senior Irish players

endorses the man he's fighting for a starting jersey with.

ROG himself even said in the aftermath of the game there

is

no 'them and us' divide between the two lads. If I was

Sexton I'd be delighted that ROG spoke highly of me, and

vice versa for that matter. But, look for controversy

anywhere you wish, it's stated in your username after

all



He hasn't spoke highly of him. It was a patronising

comment to say hes "learning". If you look at the overall

gist of rog's comments its clear he doesnt have much

respect for sexton.

Rog said last week it took him a while to understand why

he was been left out but then looking ahead to the WC he

realised why. Effectively suggesting that starting sexton

was nothing but a mere experiment. In that was the case

why was wallace never giving the same chance?





Well it was an experiment in a sense, I don't think anyone in their right mind would take Sexton over ROG if they were the same age. Wallace is a similiar age to ROG so there was never any point trying to blood him.

I think DK made a decision after the grand slam that given ROG was ticking on in years and his form was poor at the time that Sexton was the way forward and likely to be our best option for the WC. Since then ROG has hit back into form while Sexton hasn't progressed any so I think DK is backtracking at this point and restoring ROG as his first choice with the WC in mind.

So in that sense the experiment failed although no major harm done really since he knew when to retreat with it and return to ROG.

Dowlinz
3rd-March-2011, 12:34
RoG was doing major flesh pressing too after the game, with the camera following him around.. Looked like a man with an agenda. Like a BODesque charm campaign.. Sharp contrast to his slapped arse look when M philips offered him a handshake..

ROG seems to have this confident swagger about him these days, like all the pressure from the past has been lifted off him and he's just going out there and having fun now. Saw him laughing after a try last week and his interview after with the bbc was far less cynical than one would expect down through the years after a poor performance.

RichardP
3rd-March-2011, 12:58
[


He hasn't spokeN</span> highly of him (He has, but you're too blinded by pettiness to see that)</span>.</span> It was a patronising
(Eye of the beholder)</span> comment to say hes "learning". (He IS learning - hopefully) </span>If you look at the overall

gist of rog's comments its clear he doesnt have much

respect for sexton.

(Eye of the beholder - again)</span>
Rog said last week it took him a while to understand why

he was been left out but then looking ahead to the WC he

realised why. Effectively suggesting that starting sexton

was nothing but a mere experiment (How do you make that connection? Does it even enter your elephantine brain that ROG was recognizing that his play was below his previous standard?) </span>. IF</span> that was the case

why was wallace never giving the same chance?
(He was, and was deemed not likely to ever be good enough to start at 10, he's a useful 3rd cholce with an element of versatility the other two lack in that he is an experienced inside centre).</span>


The reason sexton was starting was that he was playing

much better rugby than rog...and has been for a good 2

years now. But Rog would never admit that he was a

genuine second choice. Sexton did not mention Rog once

during his reign at 10 btw. (He did, but don't let the facts get in the way of a good rant)</span>

It's difficult to give your remarks any credence at all when you just spout unsupported drivel. I'm not sure whether you're a WUM or just simply have no idea whereof you speak. Keep reading the papers, listen to other peoples' opinions and keep watching rugby; you'll learn something useful.

Red October
3rd-March-2011, 13:08
The clue might just be in the name.

Benji
3rd-March-2011, 13:50
I'd be more
concerned with the
comments that o'gara has
been making about sexton after every game... the media
wouldn't want to point that out would they....

In the most recent comment from the arrogant rog after
the scotland game he said he could see johnny was
"learning" after he put a lovely kick into the corner at the
end. Why is he opening his gob in relation to sexton at all?
he should focus on his own "master class" game,

By the way, there was no appraise given to sexton for his
kick by Ryle "i cant shut the f**k up" Nugent. Although he
was quick to lick rog's h**e every time the ball touched his
shiny boots. The boots which ryle probably shined.


106 caps for Ireland on one side and 14 on the other. Plus
Rog has almost 8 years more experience than Jonny right
now. These facts count for nothing no?

Doesnt matter if he has 1000 caps. Its not his place to be
judging his team mates. That's the coach's job.

BOD didn't mention any names when saying certain players
were giving away far too many penalties and have to fight
for their shirt, did he?


One of the most experienced and senior Irish players
endorses the man he's fighting for a starting jersey with.
ROG himself even said in the aftermath of the game there
is
no 'them and us' divide between the two lads. If I was
Sexton I'd be delighted that ROG spoke highly of me, and
vice versa for that matter. But, look for controversy
anywhere you wish, it's stated in your username after
all

He hasn't spoke highly of him. It was a patronising
comment to say hes "learning". If you look at the overall
gist of rog's comments its clear he doesnt have much
respect for sexton.
Rog said last week it took him a while to understand why
he was been left out but then looking ahead to the WC he
realised why. Effectively suggesting that starting sexton
was nothing but a mere experiment. In that was the case
why was wallace never giving the same chance?



Well it was an experiment in a sense, I don't think anyone in their right mind would take Sexton over ROG if they were the same age. Wallace is a similiar age to ROG so there was never any point trying to blood him.

I think DK made a decision after the grand slam that given ROG was ticking on in years and his form was poor at the time that Sexton was the way forward and likely to be our best option for the WC. Since then ROG has hit back into form while Sexton hasn't progressed any so I think DK is backtracking at this point and restoring ROG as his first choice with the WC in mind.

So in that sense the experiment failed although no major harm done really since he knew when to retreat with it and return to ROG.



1. Sexton has made progress with his game this year. Do you watch Leinster games.


2. Your basis of Rog has hit back to form? I must say imho his playing better now then he did in the Grand Slam year. His fight with the 10 jersey has made him improve his game. But that was a very poor Scots side with no try's at home for 18 months. We were crap and unprofessional but they were totally useless. We lacked direction, Discipline and finishing.


3. Still think come the English game Sexton will be at 10. Wouldnt say the experiment failed.

Hawkeye
3rd-March-2011, 15:39
See, as he said after the game in Scotland he's a family man now. Must make all the difference. I see a more relaxed player who does not give a s**t what is said about him. He is the form 10 by a country mile.

shipstirrer
3rd-March-2011, 16:31
[
He hasn't spoke&lt;span style="font-weight:
bold;"&gt;N&lt;/span&gt; highly of him &lt;span style="font-weight:
bold; color: rgb(255, 0, 0);"&gt;(He has, but you're too
blinded by pettiness to see that)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span
style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);"&gt;.&lt;/span&gt; It was a
patronising &lt;span style="font-weight: bold; color: rgb(255,
0, 0);"&gt;
(Eye of the beholder)&lt;/span&gt; comment to say hes
"learning". &lt;span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);"&gt;(He IS
learning - hopefully) &lt;/span&gt;If you look at the overall
gist of rog's comments its clear he doesnt have much
respect for sexton.
&lt;span style="font-weight: bold; color: rgb(255, 0, 0);"&gt;
(Eye of the beholder - again)&lt;/span&gt;Rog said last week it
took him a while to understand why
he was been left out but then looking ahead to the WC he
realised why. Effectively suggesting that starting sexton
was nothing but a mere experiment &lt;span style="color:
rgb(255, 0, 0);"&gt;(How do you make that connection? Does
it even enter your elephantine brain that ROG was
recognizing that his play was below his previous standard?)
&lt;/span&gt;. I&lt;span style="font-weight: bold;"&gt;F&lt;/span&gt; that
was the case
why was wallace never giving the same chance?
&lt;span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);"&gt;(He was, and was
deemed not likely to ever be good enough to start at 10,
he's a useful 3rd cholce with an element of versatility the
other two lack in that he is an experienced inside centre).
&lt;/span&gt;
The reason sexton was starting was that he was playing
much better rugby than rog...and has been for a good 2
years now. But Rog would never admit that he was a
genuine second choice. Sexton did not mention Rog once
during his reign at 10 btw. &lt;span style="color: rgb(255, 0,
0);"&gt;(He did, but don't let the facts get in the way of a
good rant)&lt;/span&gt;It's difficult to give your
remarks any credence at all when you just spout
unsupported drivel. I'm not sure whether you're a WUM or
just simply have no idea whereof you speak. Keep reading
the papers, listen to other peoples' opinions and keep
watching rugby; you'll learn something useful.

"It's difficult to give your remarks any credence at all when
you just spout unsupported drivel". Pot, Kettle.

1. My point was its not o'gara's place to judge his team
mates. Thats deccys job, no? Regardless of whether he is
in this "learning" stage its not up to rog to comment on it. U
dont see bod naming those who gave away far too many
penalties.

2. Wallace was never given the same chance as sexton. He
started a couple of games in summer tours but was never
given 10 in a big game like sexton was.

3. I did not look for a connection -We all no what rog
meant. He was saying johnny was given a chance merely
because the WC is coming up, otherwise he would have
been starting. Again- regardless of whether this is true or
not ITS NOT HIS PLACE TO MAKE THESE COMMENTS.

4. Show me an interview with sexton commenting on rog's
game.

ROG also stated after last years loss to scotland that we
would have won the game if he was playing. This is the
worst thing any professional can say about his team mate.
And you cant deny that.

Don't get me wrong. I think Rog is a great player but as for
his morals and respect for others i just dont think he has
any.

Richard, next time u suggest i am a WUM or tell me to back
up my points i suggest you have backed up your own first.

The Outlaw
3rd-March-2011, 16:34
Kelly is a waster anyway! If you
want good rugby writing,
read Farrelly, Ward, or my personal favorite, Thornley. The
rest either apply gobs**te logic to the most ordinary
concepts or discussions.

Another example of Kelly's stupidity here in a January
article:

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/heineken-
cup/david-kelly-chief-sports-analysis-writer-2501898.html

Dougie not delivering? Hayes not competing at the highest
level? Ignorant comments from a sub-standard
journalist...irrespective of what title is on the front of his
desk.

the ones you have named are dire

Tobyglen
3rd-March-2011, 16:42
Neil Francis, when he wants, is the best Irish writer imo. He can write absolute dross aswell but lately he has been good. Thornley is just the IRFU's little puppy.

El Homerino
3rd-March-2011, 18:58
RoG was doing major flesh pressing too after the game, with the camera following him around.. Looked like a man with an agenda. Like a BODesque charm campaign.. Sharp contrast to his slapped arse look when M philips offered him a handshake..


I seen that too, running around with his medal like it was sports day. He was obviously very pleased with himself and didnt he want everyone to know it! His game worked well against Scotland, but we would be murdered against a decent team. Not much point in Ireland playing for the corners these days whenour lineout is crap. They should stick with Sexton and work through the difficulties, its the only way forward.

LondonMunster
3rd-March-2011, 20:06
RoG was doing major flesh pressing too after the game, with the camera following him around.. Looked like a man with an agenda. Like a BODesque charm campaign.. Sharp contrast to his slapped arse look when M philips offered him a handshake..


I seen that too, running around with his medal like it was sports day. He was obviously very pleased with himself and didnt he want everyone to know it! His game worked well against Scotland, but we would be murdered against a decent team. Not much point in Ireland playing for the corners these days whenour lineout is crap. They should stick with Sexton and work through the difficulties, its the only way forward.
"Murdered against a decent team"? Like France? I hope that barring games against NZ the days of getting humped ended around 1997 by everyone else.

As for ROG looking pleased with a good performance and then congratulating other players post game, WTF? Is a player no longer allowed to be pleased with a win and his own performance?

Who was the first player ROG embraced at the final whistle? Sexton, he ran on and hugged him. Not tackling practice, it looked like a genuine congratulatory moment between two team mates.

Sometimes there's too much analysis on this site. People looking for trouble that is not there. ROG had a good game, excellent we have two out halves on fire. Great. Just like when ROG and Humph Senior went toe to toe. Anyone remember the last minute drop goal against Wales in Cardiff?

MunsterTel
3rd-March-2011, 20:21
RoG was doing major flesh pressing too after the game, with the camera following him around.. Looked like a man with an agenda. Like a BODesque charm campaign.. Sharp contrast to his slapped arse look when M philips offered him a handshake..


I seen that too, running around with his medal like it was sports day. He was obviously very pleased with himself and didnt he want everyone to know it! His game worked well against Scotland, but we would be murdered against a decent team. Not much point in Ireland playing for the corners these days whenour lineout is crap. They should stick with Sexton and work through the difficulties, its the only way forward.





"Murdered against a decent team"? Like France? I hope that barring games against NZ the days of getting humped ended around 1997 by everyone else.

As for ROG looking pleased with a good performance and then congratulating other players post game, WTF? Is a player no longer allowed to be pleased with a win and his own performance?

Who was the first player ROG embraced at the final whistle? Sexton, he ran on and hugged him. Not tackling practice, it looked like a genuine congratulatory moment between two team mates.

Sometimes there's too much analysis on this site. People looking for trouble that is not there. ROG had a good game, excellent we have two out halves on fire. Great. Just like when ROG and Humph Senior went toe to toe. Anyone remember the last minute drop goal against Wales in Cardiff?



+1 Spot on buddy. Alot of cherry picking of what people wanna see/don't wanna see. ROG went for Sexton, Sextons first reaction was to look over at ROG with a big smile. Of all the hype we make of who should and shouldn't play, Munster, Leinster etc... The lads look like they genuinely get on well http://www.munsterfans.com/forum/smileys/smile.gif

the plastic paddy
3rd-March-2011, 21:14
Good to read some positive posts. The two Out halfs are behaving brilliantly!! Both desperate to be starting but not throwing their toys out of the pram when the coach rotates as he did in the AIs and is doing now although being Deccie he wont tell anyone that is what he is doing; including them.


Building nicely to rope the dopes on the 12 and 19 as the opposition are looking at ' Irish infighting' etc and think the game is won.


The man achieved the impossible in 2009 by getting a talented team to get over the provincial s**te, weight of expectation and their own psyches( sic) to win a grand slam.


Lets get behind the team and see what happens. I personally believe this Irish Side is on the verge of doing something fantastic but then I have spent all my lifesupporting Munster and Ireland living in England so I always look on the bright side.


Love the site but dont forget there are lots of 'plastics' out there who are not fans of Leinster.

The Outlaw
3rd-March-2011, 23:03
Good to read some positive
posts. The two Out halfs are behaving brilliantly!! Both
desperate to be starting but not throwing their toys out of
the pram when the coach rotates as he did in the AIs and is
doing now although being Deccie he wont tell anyone that
is what he is doing; including them.


Building nicely to rope the dopes on the 12 and 19 as
the opposition are looking at ' Irish infighting' etc and think
the game is won.


The man achieved the impossible in 2009 by getting a
talented team to get over the provincial s**te, weight of
expectation and their own psyches( sic) to win a grand
slam.


Lets get behind the team and see what happens. I
personally believe this Irish Side is on the verge of doing
something fantastic but then I have spent all my
life*supporting Munster and Ireland living in England so I
always look on the bright side.


Love the site but dont forget there are lots of 'plastics'
out there who are not fans of Leinster.

be nice if the fans tried the same. not like booing sexton
last year at CP during the scottish game.

fredom1
3rd-March-2011, 23:45
Our lineouts are bad, without The Bull, its seems that our props cant lift properly or when they do theres not much point,John Hayes is a massiveloss and when he retires everyone will be acknowledging his unseen work that he has done over the past 100+ games for Ireland that hes played for Ireland. I would like to see the lads compete at every line out against Wales because come England we will need it,


Our back 3 Heaslip, O'Brien and Wally certainly kept the killer B's quite on Sunday,

RichardP
4th-March-2011, 02:24
"It's difficult to give your remarks any credence at all when

you just spout unsupported drivel". Pot, Kettle.



1. My point was its not o'gara's place to judge his team

mates. Thats deccys job, no? Regardless of whether he is

in this "learning" stage its not up to rog to comment on it. U

dont see bod naming those who gave away far too many

penalties.
I re-iterate, as a vice-captain and senior member of the squad he is perfectly entitled to make encouraging remarks </span>in public about the progress of a (very much junior) rival for the position. To try and find a negative in that is pedantic and disingenuous.</span> BOD hardly had to name the ones giving away too many penalties, it's pretty obvious who they are.</span>


2. Wallace was never given the same chance as sexton. He

started a couple of games in summer tours but was never

given 10 in a big game like sexton was.
In the eyes of two different coaches Wallace has been deemed insufficient to the task; both coaches have monitored his performances for 10 years or so; I hardly think they need give him international caps to confirm what they already know.</span>


3. I did not look for a connection -We all K</span>noW</span> what rog

meant. He was saying johnny was given a chance merely

because the WC is coming up, otherwise he would have

been starting. Again- regardless of whether this is true or

not ITS NOT HIS PLACE TO MAKE THESE COMMENTS.
You CHOOSE to interpret them that way; I choose to interpret them as ROG knowing he is also being assessed by Kidney and the position is still up for grabs</span>. I cant say 100% that I am irrefutably correct, but I'm as convinced that my opinion is accurate as you seem to be that yours is. No doubt others will (dis)agree</span> with both of us.</span>


4. Show me an interview with sexton commenting on rog's

game.
I have no intention of trawling for JS interviews where he has commented on ROG's game; I have read themand they too were praiseworthy and positive</span>


ROG also stated after last years loss to scotland that we

would have won the game if he was playing. This is the

worst thing any professional can say about his team mate.

And you cant deny that.
Actually I can deny that but but you can put any spin on it you want.</span>


Don't get me wrong. I think Rog is a great player but as for

his morals and respect for others i just dont think he has

any.
I know nothing of his morals and I know probably about as much or as little about his respect for others as you do.</span>


Richard, next time u suggest i am a WUM or tell me to back

up my points i suggest you have backed up your own first.


You've come here to attack one player and his right to comment on another - I have made my position as clear as I intend to; as another poster suggests - your name says it all.

upandout
4th-March-2011, 09:55
"It's difficult to give your remarks any
credence at all when
you just spout unsupported drivel". Pot, Kettle.

1. My point was its not o'gara's place to judge his team
mates. Thats deccys job, no? Regardless of whether he is
in this "learning" stage its not up to rog to comment on it. U
dont see bod naming those who gave away far too many
penalties.
&lt;span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);"&gt;I re-iterate, as a
vice-captain and senior member of the squad he is
perfectly entitled to make encouraging remarks
&lt;/span&gt;i&lt;span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);"&gt;n public
about the progress of a (very much junior) rival for the
position. To try and find a negative in that is pedantic* and
disingenuous.&lt;/span&gt; &lt;span style="color: rgb(255, 0,
0);"&gt;BOD hardly had to name the ones giving away too
many penalties, it's pretty obvious who they are.&lt;/span&gt;
2. Wallace was never given the same chance as sexton. He
started a couple of games in summer tours but was never
given 10 in a big game like sexton was.
I&lt;span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);"&gt;n the eyes of two
different coaches Wallace has been deemed insufficient to
the task; both coaches have monitored his performances
for 10 years or so; I hardly think they need give him
international caps to confirm what they already know.
&lt;/span&gt;
3. I did not look for a connection -We all &lt;span
style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);"&gt;K&lt;/span&gt;no&lt;span
style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);"&gt;W&lt;/span&gt; what rog
meant. He was saying johnny was given a chance merely
because the WC is coming up, otherwise he would have
been starting. Again- regardless of whether this is true or
not ITS NOT HIS PLACE TO MAKE THESE COMMENTS.
&lt;span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);"&gt;You CHOOSE to
interpret them that way; I choose to interpret them as ROG
knowing he is also being assessed by Kidney and the
position is still up for grabs&lt;/span&gt;. &lt;span style="color:
rgb(255, 0, 0);"&gt;I cant say 100% that I am irrefutably
correct, but I'm as convinced that my opinion is accurate
as you seem to be that yours is. No doubt others will
(dis)agree&lt;/span&gt; &lt;span style="color: rgb(255, 0,
0);"&gt;with both of us.&lt;/span&gt;
4. Show me an interview with sexton commenting on rog's
game.
&lt;span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);"&gt;I have no intention of
trawling for JS interviews where he has commented on
ROG's game; I have read themand they too were
praiseworthy and positive&lt;/span&gt;
ROG also stated after last years loss to scotland that we
would have won the game if he was playing. This is the
worst thing any professional can say about his team mate.
And you cant deny that.
&lt;span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);"&gt;Actually I can deny
that but but you can put any spin on it you want.&lt;/span&gt;
Don't get me wrong. I think Rog is a great player but as for
his morals and respect for others i just dont think he has
any.
&lt;span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);"&gt;I know nothing of his
morals and I know probably about as much or as little
about his respect for others as you do.&lt;/span&gt;
Richard, next time u suggest i am a WUM or tell me to back
up my points i suggest you have backed up your own first.
You've come here to attack one player and his
right to comment on another - I have made my position as
clear as I intend to; as another poster suggests - your
name says it all.

Oh I'd think I have to agree with ShipStirrer (sic). ROG has
absolutely no right to go around acknowledging that there
are other rugby players in the worl

NotreDameRFC
4th-March-2011, 11:51
i think the one big advantage, at the moment anyway, is that ROG is more comfortable coming off the bench than JS is. ROG has the experience to come and fit seemlessly into the game, 100+ caps gives you that.


But should that mean ROG always comes off the bench? Kidney call but ROG seems to revel in coming off the bench and putting his gameplan into the match.


But in my humble opinion,for the majority of games between now and whenever we play our last game in RWC, Sexton should start and ROG to come on.


Sextons has certain parts to his game better than ROG , linebreaking, defence etc and ROG has better kicking game and game management. Its up to Kidney to get the balance right and who to start and when the other 10 comes on. But also he must not make the mistake to bring on the "other" 10 just for the sake of bringing him on.


There are lots of myopic views on here from each camp but some sensible views that we should be happy to have two good 10's.


Over the last 2/3 years ROgs form had dipped but he seems to have reponded wellto the young predenders claim of the 10 jersey. Sexton has yet to translate his provincial form , on a regular basis to the IRish jersey. If he does , Ireland will be the benefit.... as i believe his form for Leinster has been as good as any other club 10 in the NH in last 2 years.

ustix
12th-March-2011, 08:30
Kelly is a waster anyway! If you want good rugby writing,

read Farrelly, Ward, or my personal favorite, Thornley. The

rest either apply gobs**te logic to the most ordinary

concepts or discussions.



Another example of Kelly's stupidity here in a January

article:



http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/heineken-

cup/david-kelly-chief-sports-analysis-writer-2501898.html



Dougie not delivering? Hayes not competing at the highest

level? Ignorant comments from a sub-standard

journalist...irrespective of what title is on the front of his

desk.
Van Esbeck was the man. Pure, unadulterated, sacred facts.
Speculation in the bookies, opinions in the pub, facts in the newspaper.
Tis all on the hinterset now.