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View Full Version : Why can Irish players not do the basics?



Aussiedub
22nd-February-2011, 12:22
I've been thinking about this for a while and constantly been wondering why Irish players tend not to be able to do the basics of their position and why they tend to be picked on what they can do which is outside their basic role especially when compared to most other successful teams???


I think most people would agree with the following -


1 - Props primary function is to scrummage, followed by lineout lifting, defensive work and then ball carrying - ideally you want one prop who is a good ball carrier but this should be subserviant to the basics


2 - Hookers primary function is to throw into the lineout, then scrummage then defend/ball carrying


3 - 2nd rows ideally should have 2 types....1 a bulky front of the line jumper who scrummages well, carries well and is an enforcer type....1 who is a lineout/restart specialist who can carry/tackle/scrum...it's perfect if you have 2 who can do both


4 - Backrow to be balanced between big tacklers, big ball carriers, breakdown/link specialist


5 - Scrumhalf who can pass, carry, defend, kick


6 - Outhalf who can control a game, pass, kick, carry, defend


7 - Centres who can pass/carry/defend and score


8 - Wingers who can score tries, defend, carry


9 - Fullback who is safe under high ball, good boot and can run with the ball


However for Ireland we tend to pick props who can carry etc ahead of props who can scrummage, hookers whose best attribute is carrying but can't throw into a lineout, 2nd rows who can't ball carry, backrow who all carry without someone who is a breakdown/continuity expert, scrumhalves based on ball carrying/defence ahead of passing, outhalves who can't defend, centres who can't pass well, wingers who don't score tries and fullbacks who can't catch or defend...


Surely in this day and age with professional coaching there should never be a player in an International team who can't do the following -


1 - Pass the ball off either hand comfortably (players from 6-15 most important) in front of their team mate so that they don't have to stop/slow down receiving the ball


2 - Players who can't tackle. If you can't position yourself right to tackle after 20 years in the game it's disgraceful. Admittedly all players will miss the odd tackle but consistently doing it or getting smashed back should not be happening


3- Hookers who can't throw the ball straight


4 - Props and packs who don't have the technical expertise in the scrum. I know there will always be times you get beaten by a better player but that is different to being smashed due to poor technique etc


5 - Players who can't offload or who don't understand running lines

tickettout
22nd-February-2011, 12:24
12 and 13 who can make line breaks.


We've two centres that are no threat to break the defensive line.

25th-February-2011, 19:02
I wish people would stop this obsession with the must to have
a massive lump at lock, all seems to spring from the idea that
Botha working well with Matfield shows that need and the
media love in for (the now over-rated in my book) Shaw. You
need guys with the bulk/technique balance but they don't have
to be massive. An on form DOC is as effective as either of
those 2 players - the problem is he hasn't been on form for
best part of a year, though improving. Don't forget it was
DOC who was part of that replacement pack unit who showed
how the 1st Lions test could have gone. If the Wasps love in
hadn't been allowed on that tour he might well have been the
guy getting the plaudits.

The Outlaw
25th-February-2011, 19:04
I've been thinking about this for a
while and constantly been wondering why Irish players
tend not to be able to do the basics of their position and
why they tend to be picked on what they can do which is
outside their basic role especially when compared to most
other successful teams???


I think most people would agree with the following -


1 - Props primary function is to scrummage, followed by
lineout lifting, defensive work and then ball carrying -
ideally you want one prop who is a good ball carrier but
this should be subserviant to the basics


2 - Hookers primary function is to throw into the lineout,
then scrummage then defend/ball carrying


3 - 2nd rows ideally should have 2 types....1 a bulky
front of the line jumper who scrummages well, carries well
and is an enforcer type....1 who is a lineout/restart
specialist who can carry/tackle/scrum...it's perfect if you
have 2 who can do both


4 - Backrow to be balanced between big tacklers, big
ball carriers, breakdown/link specialist


5 - Scrumhalf who can pass, carry, defend, kick


6 - Outhalf who can control a game, pass, kick, carry,
defend


7 - Centres who can pass/carry/defend and score


8 - Wingers who can score tries, defend, carry


9 - Fullback who is safe under high ball, good boot and
can run with the ball


However for Ireland we tend to pick props who can
carry etc ahead of props who can scrummage, hookers
whose best attribute is carrying but can't throw into a
lineout, 2nd rows who can't ball carry, backrow who all
carry without someone who is a breakdown/continuity
expert, scrumhalves based on ball carrying/defence ahead
of passing, outhalves who can't defend, centres who can't
pass well, wingers who don't score tries and fullbacks who
can't catch or defend...


Surely in this day and age with professional coaching
there should never be a player in an International team
who can't do the following -


1 - Pass the ball off either hand comfortably (players
from 6-15 most important) in front of their team mate so
that they don't have to stop/slow down receiving the
ball


2 - Players who can't tackle. If you can't position
yourself right to tackle after 20 years in the game it's
disgraceful. Admittedly all players will miss the odd tackle
but consistently doing it or getting smashed back should
not be happening


3*- Hookers who can't throw the ball straight


4 - Props and packs who don't have the technical
expertise in the scrum. I know there will always be times
you get beaten by a better player but that is different to
being smashed due to poor technique etc


5 - Players who can't offload or who don't understand
running lines

Because our players are badly trained from a young age.

They are lumped into schools competitions where the
standard is awful in general and decent in the rare
exceptions.

Players in the top countries are fast tracked to academies
at 15 to be trained properly and are taken out of the
schools system.

Quite frankly the schools cup is responsible for a lot that is
wrong with Irish Rugby. Winning becomes more important
then learning the basic skills

Big-al
25th-February-2011, 19:12
I'm happy enough with the youngsters coming through in Ulstersmileys/smile.gif

The Outlaw
25th-February-2011, 19:25
I'm happy enough with the youngsters
coming through in Ulstersmileys/smile.gif
Most of them would be considered average in a top ranked
country

Big-al
25th-February-2011, 19:29
smileys/biggrin.gifLuke Marshall, Paddy Jackson, Paddy McAllister, Nevin Spence, Craig Gilroy etc,etc all 20 and under bar McAllister who is 21





Not average by a long shot. Especially as they're winning MOTM awards and scoring trys for fun. Ye Jealous feckersmileys/wink.gif

The Outlaw
25th-February-2011, 20:10
smileys/biggrin.gifLuke Marshall, Paddy Jackson, Paddy
McAllister, Nevin Spence, Craig Gilroy etc,etc all 20 and under
bar McAllister who is 21


*


Not average by a long shot. Especially as they're winning
MOTM awards and scoring trys for fun. Ye Jealous feckersmileys/wink.gif


Wouldnt take any of them over Eoin Griffin.

Big-al
25th-February-2011, 21:02
smileys/lol.gif

Quailman
26th-February-2011, 08:24
smileys/biggrin.gifLuke Marshall, Paddy Jackson, Paddy

McAllister, Nevin Spence, Craig Gilroy etc,etc all 20 and under

bar McAllister who is 21Not average by a long shot. Especially as they're winning



MOTM awards and scoring trys for fun. Ye Jealous feckersmileys/wink.gif





Wouldnt take any of them over Eoin Griffin.

Griffen looks like he could be better than Spence, he looks seriously good and has a much lower level of hype given he's from Connacht.

That said, I'd take Jackson over any of the other young guys from any of the provinces. He looks like he could be top class in the the most important position.

26th-February-2011, 08:32
I honestly think we're producing age group players with a
lot of potential, add the likes of Butler, POM, Nagle, Foley,
Sherry from Munster plus the numerous Leinster guys, we
have potential. Our biggest problem is we just don't
develop that potential. The fall off rate for players going
from being competitive at age group to developing into pro
players in Irish rugby is outrageous compared to other
countries. When you add in the innate conservatism of
Irish rugby you end up with sentiment and safety first
meaning we'd rather play on with past their best players
and buy in known entities* than develop our potential
players and create some meaningful game time. What
doesn't help is the people running Irish rugby are still so
rooted in the club game that they really do not want to see
provincial A sides being given the kind of run they need to
develop our fringe and young players.


* added to which in Irish rugby there is a seriously
unhealthy fixation with anything SH being better than
anything we could develop. So we buy in "projects" like
Manning and Borlaise and then after great expense we
realise they're not cutting it. We could spend that time and
money on identifying home grown talent and developing
that to at least the same end.

The Outlaw
26th-February-2011, 10:56
I honestly think we're producing age
group players with a
lot of potential, add the likes of Butler, POM, Nagle, Foley,
Sherry from Munster plus the numerous Leinster guys, we
have potential. Our biggest problem is we just don't
develop that potential. The fall off rate for players going
from being competitive at age group to developing into pro
players in Irish rugby is outrageous compared to other
countries. When you add in the innate conservatism of
Irish rugby you end up with sentiment and safety first
meaning we'd rather play on with past their best players
and buy in known entities* than develop our potential
players and create some meaningful game time. What
doesn't help is the people running Irish rugby are still so
rooted in the club game that they really do not want to see
provincial A sides being given the kind of run they need to
develop our fringe and young players.


* added to which in Irish rugby there is a seriously
unhealthy fixation with anything SH being better than
anything we could develop. So we buy in "projects" like
Manning and Borlaise and then after great expense we
realise they're not cutting it. We could spend that time and
money on identifying home grown talent and developing
that to at least the same end.

I disagree because many of our current internationals have
basic skills lacking. A lot of them cant pass competently off
either hand.

26th-February-2011, 11:27
I honestly
think we're producing age
group players with a
lot of potential, add the likes of Butler, POM, Nagle, Foley,
Sherry from Munster plus the numerous Leinster guys, we
have potential. Our biggest problem is we just don't
develop that potential. The fall off rate for players going
from being competitive at age group to developing into pro
players in Irish rugby is outrageous compared to other
countries. When you add in the innate conservatism of
Irish rugby you end up with sentiment and safety first
meaning we'd rather play on with past their best players
and buy in known entities* than develop our potential
players and create some meaningful game time. What
doesn't help is the people running Irish rugby are still so
rooted in the club game that they really do not want to see
provincial A sides being given the kind of run they need to
develop our fringe and young players.


* added to which in Irish rugby there is a seriously
unhealthy fixation with anything SH being better than
anything we could develop. So we buy in "projects" like
Manning and Borlaise and then after great expense we
realise they're not cutting it. We could spend that time and
money on identifying home grown talent and developing
that to at least the same end.

I disagree because many of our current internationals have
basic skills lacking. A lot of them cant pass competently off
either hand.

But I was referring to the potential of the youngsters and
their development. The fact players can get to first choice
and not do the basics is a sign of the poorness of Irish
rugby. We're wasting a lot of potential talent.

bruffian
26th-February-2011, 12:40
Strange. This much maligned schools system has produced Brian O Driscoll,Paul O Connell,David Wallace,Keith Earls,etc....doesnt seem to be doing a too bad a job to me.

Big-al
26th-February-2011, 12:50
smileys/biggrin.gifLuke Marshall, Paddy Jackson, Paddy
McAllister, Nevin Spence, Craig Gilroy etc,etc all 20 and under
bar McAllister who is 21Not average by a long shot. Especially as they're winning



MOTM awards and scoring trys for fun. Ye Jealous feckersmileys/wink.gif





Wouldnt take any of them over Eoin Griffin.

Griffen looks like he could be better than Spence, he looks seriously good and has a much lower level of hype given he's from Connacht.

That said, I'd take Jackson over any of the other young guys from any of the provinces. He looks like he could be top class in the the most important position.



Griffen isn't near Spence in terms of pace, power and overall ability, which is why Spence has played very for Ireland 'A' and in the very wellHeineken cup. I'd say Luke Marshall will be as good as any of them. In saying that Jackson, Marshall and Spence are all from Ulster