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skinnyryan
14th-February-2011, 12:36
The Conundrum continues smileys/cool.gif

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Kidney must ring changes at half-back</font>



By Hugh Farrelly
Monday February 14 2011

THERE is a tradition in sports journalism that the Americans refer to as 'Monday morning quarter-backing' which, in essence, means being wise after the event.

Expect a healthy dose today amid the fall-out from Ireland's encouraging, frustrating, energising, infuriating three-tries-to-one defeat to France yesterday.

The biggest selection call facing Declan Kidney heading to Murrayfield is at half-back. There were will be calls for Ronan O'Gara to be reinstated at out-half, and so there should be. What is galling is that much of this kneejerk clamour will come from the same individuals who blithely accepted that the 33-year-old has been destined for a bit-part, back-up role to Jonathan Sexton since November 2009.

That was never going to be acceptable to O'Gara as his form this season has proved. The bottom line is that, although Sexton is a quality operator and is not playing badly, his Munster rival is out-performing him and, like Sean O'Brien going into the tournament, is simply playing too well to leave out. Consider his last three outings. A masterful end-game against London Irish , which lifted Munster spirits and propelled them into the Challenge Cup after their Toulon nightmare, was followed by his victory from the jaws of defeat turn in Rome and then very nearly a repeat yesterday.

Whether it is down to experience or otherwise, there is the issue of Sexton not playing what is in front of him, which is O'Gara's modus operandi. As soon as he came on, the ball was spiralling 50 metres into French territory and into touch, which was in stark contrast to Sexton's failure to exploit the space available up to then.

Then came his threaded kick through which didn't come off but bounced up for David Wallace to put Jamie Heaslip over in the corner. Then came the conversion from the right-hand touchline which clattered off the upright and dropped inches over the bar. And then came the penalty kick to touch which failed to find the line but was turned into an Irish penalty by the stupidity of Jerome Thion.

Put them all together and it adds up to a man who seemingly can do no wrong and, with confidence seemingly still a major issue for this talented squad judging by the error count again yesterday, it is a wave Kidney should surf into Edinburgh.

If O'Gara is in King Midas nick, the same cannot be said for Tomas O'Leary. At his best, the scrum-half is one of the most effective game-changers in Europe but, after a week disrupted by injury, he is clearly out of sorts -- despite doing very well for his try yesterday.

O'Leary has not suddenly become a bad player but the situation demands change and Eoin Reddan, Peter Stringer (as far as we know, since we haven't seen him play since the Wall Street Crash) and Isaac Boss are all playing with more authority than the man in possession.

Last week, Kidney kept faith with the players who came close to calamity in Rome and yesterday's performance also demands its degree of loyalty in selection. However, when the evidence is overwhelming it needs to be acted upon as Kidney did with O'Brien and Mike Ross and as he now needs to do with his half-backs. O'Leary rested, O'Gara reinstated ... so says the evidence.

- Hugh Farrelly

Benji
14th-February-2011, 12:41
Kidney loves Tol so his going to play and Sexton to start with Rog on the bench. With the game Kidney is trying to play he needs Sexton at 10. Sexton to start

Aussiedub
14th-February-2011, 12:42
and see David Wallace spend his time minding the 10 channel again

moritz
14th-February-2011, 12:42
I thought TOL played very well smileys/wink.gif

Hawkeye
14th-February-2011, 12:52
Have to agree with Farrelly this Irish team is not going anywhere under Sexton. Kidney should realise that and reinstate ROG as our starting quarter back for the World Cup. Yes, he has his faults as have been argued on this site but his experience is needed for Test Rugby. I am not knocking Sexton, he is a fine playerbut has a lot to learn and has time on his side.Scrum half also has to be looked.Stringer has to be used as a replacement from off the bench.

Aussiedub
14th-February-2011, 12:57
Have to agree with Farrelly this Irish team is not going anywhere under Sexton. Kidney should realise that and reinstate ROG as our starting quarter back for the World Cup. Yes, he has his faults as have been argued on this site but his experience is needed for Test Rugby. I am not knocking Sexton, he is a fine playerbut has a lot to learn and has time on his side.Scrum half also has to be looked.Stringer has to be used as a replacement from off the bench.





So how will ROG help us play the running, ball carrying attacking style that Kidney has said he wants?

Benji
14th-February-2011, 13:15
Have to agree with Farrelly this Irish team is not going anywhere under Sexton. Kidney should realise that and reinstate ROG as our starting quarter back for the World Cup. Yes, he has his faults as have been argued on this site but his experience is needed for Test Rugby. I am not knocking Sexton, he is a fine playerbut has a lot to learn and has time on his side.Scrum half also has to be looked.Stringer has to be used as a replacement from off the bench.


Rog cant play the game the way sexton can as a running threat and his physical presence . But Kidney has no faith in his new players. Any blip and he reverts back to old mates. Could Sexton have won that match yesterday ditto italy we will never know because he was carrying a knock and was taken off. Kidney is strange he makes changes at halfback brings on Rog and yet leaves Poc Heaslip and Best on nearly the full game.


Sexton is well capable of finishing out a game and winning it. His done it at Heineken cup level and Im sure he can make the step up to international.


Ireland held France to only one try and they hadnt many linebreaks against us. Defensively we are a better side with Tol and Sexton.


Would like to see Sexton and Redden for the scots.

Combatlogo
14th-February-2011, 13:20
He scored a DG in Rome any competent 10 would have made, missed touch with the penalty, requiring the French to f**k it up. Kicking into the corner is great when the opposition make a hames of their lineout as the French did yesterday but how often can you rely on that?


O'Gara isn't playing badly but to read Farrelly, you'd think he's Dan Carter.

Balla Boy
14th-February-2011, 13:26
He scored a DG in Rome any competent 10 would have made, missed touch with the penalty, requiring the French to f**k it up. Kicking into the corner is great when the opposition make a hames of their lineout as the French did yesterday but how often can you rely on that?


O'Gara isn't playing badly but to read Farrelly, you'd think he's Dan Carter.





Not sure you would. Farrelly seems to be making the case that ROG is in such good form that when he makes errors they just go right anyway. Which is a bit odd.

Benji
14th-February-2011, 13:28
Sexton isnt perfect but neither is Rog.


We cant expect to do better in the world cup with the same players.


We needed to change the way we played and we also needed new players.


Out half = nearly sorted


TH = Sorted


No 9 = Hopeless same players


Hooker = Still a problem


Centre = We need another option to cover both and different combinations


Scary when you think about how long some of the lads have been in the squad.

JoeyFantastic
14th-February-2011, 13:29
He scored a DG in Rome any
competent 10 would have made, missed touch with the
penalty, requiring the French to f**k it up. Kicking into the
corner is great when the opposition make a hames of their
lineout as the French did yesterday but how often can you
rely on that?


O'Gara isn't playing badly but to read Farrelly, you'd think
he's Dan Carter.

Sexton should be playing well enough to end the speculation
but he isn't so it's natural people will want O'Gara back.

Cervidave
14th-February-2011, 13:29
He scored a DG in Rome any competent 10 would have made, missed touch with the penalty, requiring the French to f**k it up. Kicking into the corner is great when the opposition make a hames of their lineout as the French did yesterday but how often can you rely on that?


O'Gara isn't playing badly but to read Farrelly, you'd think he's Dan Carter.





Not sure you would. Farrelly seems to be making the case that ROG is in such good form that when he makes errors they just go right anyway. Which is a bit odd.





It's a ridiculous point he's making.


'ROG made errors but got lucky a few times therefore he can do no wrong and everything will work out for him so let's start him for the next game'.


Give me a break ffs.

Hawkeye
14th-February-2011, 13:44
The disappointing thing with the many Leinster fans that swamp this site is that they see things with blue tinted glasses on.Sorry lads but things are just not working at the moment. In fact this has been coming for a while now. Sexton just has not delivered.

Charco
14th-February-2011, 13:54
He scored a DG in Rome any competent 10 would have made, missed touch with the penalty, requiring the French to f**k it up. Kicking into the corner is great when the opposition make a hames of their lineout as the French did yesterday but how often can you rely on that?


O'Gara isn't playing badly but to read Farrelly, you'd think he's Dan Carter.

Precisely. Kidney intends to go on with this running game and Sexyboy will be better suited for it. ROG has a sublime pass, but his support work, speed etc isn't the same as Sexton's.

Thomond78
14th-February-2011, 13:58
He scored a DG in Rome any
competent 10 would have made, missed touch with the
penalty, requiring the French to f**k it up. Kicking into the
corner is great when the opposition make a hames of their
lineout as the French did yesterday but how often can you
rely on that?


O'Gara isn't playing badly but to read Farrelly, you'd
think he's Dan Carter.Precisely. Kidney
intends to go on with this running game and Sexyboy will
be better suited for it. ROG has a sublime pass, but his
support work, speed etc isn't the same as Sexton's.


Which is fine and dandy. But at the moment, Sexton's
passing, and the fact that - as we saw against Italy and just
before TOL rescued a certain try Sexton did his best to
butcher yesterday - Sexton currently has never seen a
blind alley he didn't like, it means that the only person
running is Sexton. Because as a result the other backs
aren't getting decent ball in space when they should be.

And I'm not 100% sure that's what's meant by a running
game...

Mcork
14th-February-2011, 14:06
TBF all the backline posts should be up for grabs except for 13 (the jersey anyway). You'wouldn't expect there to wholesale changes though. I wouldn't wager on any more than 3 changes. 9 &amp; 12 of course with possibly Trimble or Bowe to come back in.

ROG is playing well in the cameo role (it's always easier to make a change when coming on) and there is no doubt that Sexton has a lot to learn but I guess he still offers more going forward to the RWC.

Wouldn't be unfair if ROG got the nod but I would say it's not a priority. The two guys either side of him are far more urgent cases.

Valencia
14th-February-2011, 15:14
I'd get McFadden in with BOD in the centre, if Tommy Bowe is back fit

Point
14th-February-2011, 15:50
He scored a DG in Rome any competent 10 would have made, missed touch with the penalty, requiring the French to f**k it up. Kicking into the corner is great when the opposition make a hames of their lineout as the French did yesterday but how often can you rely on that?


O'Gara isn't playing badly but to read Farrelly, you'd think he's Dan Carter.





You should take note of Farrelly's bias, and then bin his article. Sexton/Stringer with Rog &amp; Boss on the bench is the way to go, but that would require Kidney to display a bit of mislaid decency.

tickettout
14th-February-2011, 16:36
He scored a DG in Rome any competent 10 would have made, missed touch with the penalty, requiring the French to f**k it up. Kicking into the corner is great when the opposition make a hames of their lineout as the French did yesterday but how often can you rely on that?


O'Gara isn't playing badly but to read Farrelly, you'd think he's Dan Carter.





You should take note of Farrelly's bias, and then bin his article. Sexton/Stringer with Rog &amp; Boss on the bench is the way to go, but that would require Kidney to display a bit of mislaid decency.





Ever considered the fact that Stringer isn't as good as you're making him out to be? There was a reason why EOS cut him loose at the 2007 w/c.He has not been first choice since.A few months after the w/c he lost his Munster place aswell.


McGahan and Kidney oviously don't fancy him at 9 because it's like playing with 14 men when a team is under pressure.

Point
14th-February-2011, 16:47
He scored a DG in Rome any competent 10 would have made, missed touch with the penalty, requiring the French to f**k it up. Kicking into the corner is great when the opposition make a hames of their lineout as the French did yesterday but how often can you rely on that?


O'Gara isn't playing badly but to read Farrelly, you'd think he's Dan Carter.





You should take note of Farrelly's bias, and then bin his article. Sexton/Stringer with Rog &amp; Boss on the bench is the way to go, but that would require Kidney to display a bit of mislaid decency.





Ever considered the fact that Stringer isn't as good as you're making him out to be? There was a reason why EOS cut him loose at the 2007 w/c.He has not been first choice since.A few months after the w/c he lost his Munster place aswell.


McGahan and Kidney oviously don't fancy him at 9 because it's like playing with 14 men when a team is under pressure.





I'm quite comfortable with the fact that idiots like yourself have been spouting that bull for the last 3 years while rejoicing in a substandard player. Well guess what, your substandard player had been found out as being just that, and plenty of people have come to realise that you just can't beat pace in a pass from a scrumhalf. Kidney and McGahan should be ashamed of themselves, and it reflects a rum stain on their character.

the plastic paddy
14th-February-2011, 16:51
As someone has said on another part of the site, can Sexton play 12? Defensively holds his own and there is precedent with Wilkinson for the lions. Know it goes against the worldwide trend with Behemoths like Hape, SB Williams etc but frankly we havent got the monster to play alongside BOD and if we are going to try it against anyone surely the scots would be better than Wales or the English Kiwis.


Darcy has had two poor games now and maybe a place on the bench might sharpen him up a bit. For all that McFadden wouldnt let anyone down. pray we get Tommy Bowe back fit and firing for last three games.

Combatlogo
14th-February-2011, 16:59
Also precedent with Ward/Campbell in 1981...that didn't turn out well...not a chance in hell Kidney is going to make a change like that.

g-macca
14th-February-2011, 17:02
Have to agree with Farrelly this Irish
team is not going anywhere under Sexton. Kidney should
realise that and reinstate ROG as our starting quarter back for
the World Cup. Yes, he has his faults as have been argued on
this site but his experience is needed for Test Rugby. I am not
knocking Sexton, he is a fine player*but has a lot to learn and
has time on his side.**Scrum half also has to be
looked.*Stringer has to be used as a replacement from off the
bench.

Your delusional about O'Gara, he couldn't get a car running
never mind a back line, agree that TOL has to go

tickettout
14th-February-2011, 17:03
He scored a DG in Rome any competent 10 would have made, missed touch with the penalty, requiring the French to f**k it up. Kicking into the corner is great when the opposition make a hames of their lineout as the French did yesterday but how often can you rely on that?


O'Gara isn't playing badly but to read Farrelly, you'd think he's Dan Carter.





You should take note of Farrelly's bias, and then bin his article. Sexton/Stringer with Rog &amp; Boss on the bench is the way to go, but that would require Kidney to display a bit of mislaid decency.





Ever considered the fact that Stringer isn't as good as you're making him out to be? There was a reason why EOS cut him loose at the 2007 w/c.He has not been first choice since.A few months after the w/c he lost his Munster place aswell.


McGahan and Kidney oviously don't fancy him at 9 because it's like playing with 14 men when a team is under pressure.





I'm quite comfortable with the fact that idiots like yourself have been spouting that bull for the last 3 years while rejoicing in a substandard player. Well guess what, your substandard player had been found out as being just that, and plenty of people have come to realise that you just can't beat pace in a pass from a scrumhalf. Kidney and McGahan should be ashamed of themselves, and it reflects a rum stain on their character.





You know Stringer personally and it's clouding your judgemnet on the player.


You ignore his limitations and talk about his nonselection as if itis a massive injustice.

CajunCannon
14th-February-2011, 17:14
It's just my opinion, but...

I'd still love to see Sexton get a fair go with Strings. I'd
like to see DK start Sexton/Stringer with ROG to come on if
necessary.

Problem with that would be that DK won't give Stringer a
fair go. He would replace Stringer at the first sign of
trouble. Even in his MOM game vs. Scotland in 09, DK
pulled him for TOL around 60 minutes. I think he couldn't
bear letting Strings put on a better show, but that's neither
here nor there.

I'm happy with Fitz at 15, BOD at 13, and Earls at 11. If
Bowe is fit he'd be my 14.

At 12, D'Arcy just hasn't cut it. What about giving Paddy
Wallace a run at 12? He couldn't be worse. McFadden could
be an option, and Trimble has played 12/13 before. In any
case, D'Arcy hasn't done enough to hold his place.

That being said, it doesn't matter who we have back there
if the ball doesn't get out quick enough to give them time
and space to work.

sewa
14th-February-2011, 17:19
Both 10's are playing for Ireland the way they were for their clubs. ROG being really commanding and laying a leaders role.

When Sexton plays there is no evidence of an option B when the loops and occasional skip / reverse passes aren't working. Funny enough international level is where the little tricks we have seen over and over from his side are least likely to be effective

isola ciarrai
14th-February-2011, 19:36
Both 10's are playing for Ireland the way they were for their clubs. ROG being really
commanding and laying a leaders role.

When Sexton plays there is no evidence of an option B when the loops and occasional skip / reverse passes
aren't working. Funny enough international level is where the little tricks we have seen over and over from
his side are least likely to be effective
TOL has strengths and weaknesses, and we do not present enough quick, clean ball regularly to see Strings
first choice, and I speak as one who worships the ground the little man walks on. TOL is so lacking in self
belief that his score on sat will bring him on amazingly - he was in great form only 18 months ago before
serious injury. We will need him in RWC. His speed and power when unleashed are something.
We need two 10s, as most teams do. If only in case of injury. The brains trust need to do more with Sexton
viz tactics and moves - he executes their plans. FFS, it's nearly 50 years since Earl Kirton did the loop with
NZ. Sadly, think we need Joe Schmidt in Ireland set up as backs coach ASAP. His thinking is fresh and
clear. The Gaff is a nice man and did a decent job all along but the creaks are showing.
ROG is one of the greats - at least half the teams going into RWC would love to have him at 10. We need
them BOTH.
Agree re McFadden at 12 - he is well used to BOD and visa versa. Darcy going through a crisis but he has
ability and will also be needed. If nothing was learned fro France RWC it is that we need minimum 25
players who can slot in to First XV without weakening it noticably. We must trust DK - he has delivered so
far and must aim at October 2011 so we can,for once FFS, have a respectable RWC. We can beat Australia
but not just using only ROG field position game/Sexton running game - ROG can pass and Sexton can kick.
A mxing of it is necessary as Australia can play only one way.
Extreme reactions do not help us - only a risky game will bring rewards but it brings with it the possibility of
mistakes. Still, disappointing to see professionals who do f*** all but train knock on passes straight into
their chests. We must persist with it as the old 'blood, boot and bollock' will not do - too tiring and we are
then picked off in final quarter. Got to have faith in BOD and POC refusing to retire without some glory at
least at RWC - semi-final place.

RED 49
14th-February-2011, 19:48
Sexton needs confidence , ie game time and starts for Ireland .he is
the future until someone ( hopefully keatley ) come along.I also think
rog has so much to offer but in a back up role now and what a great
backup to have.

LeinsterTrue
14th-February-2011, 20:34
TOL has strengths and weaknesses, and we do not present enough quick, clean ball regularly to see Strings

first choice, and I speak as one who worships the ground the little man walks on. TOL is so lacking in self

belief that his score on sat will bring him on amazingly - he was in great form only 18 months ago before

serious injury. We will need him in RWC. His speed and power when unleashed are something.

We need two 10s, as most teams do. If only in case of injury. The brains trust need to do more with Sexton

viz tactics and moves - he executes their plans. FFS, it's nearly 50 years since Earl Kirton did the loop with

NZ. Sadly, think we need Joe Schmidt in Ireland set up as backs coach ASAP. His thinking is fresh and

clear. The Gaff is a nice man and did a decent job all along but the creaks are showing.

ROG is one of the greats - at least half the teams going into RWC would love to have him at 10. We need

them BOTH.

Agree re McFadden at 12 - he is well used to BOD and visa versa. Darcy going through a crisis but he has

ability and will also be needed. If nothing was learned fro France RWC it is that we need minimum 25

players who can slot in to First XV without weakening it noticably. We must trust DK - he has delivered so

far and must aim at October 2011 so we can,for once FFS, have a respectable RWC. We can beat Australia

but not just using only ROG field position game/Sexton running game - ROG can pass and Sexton can kick.

A mxing of it is necessary as Australia can play only one way.

Extreme reactions do not help us - only a risky game will bring rewards but it brings with it the possibility of

mistakes. Still, disappointing to see professionals who do f*** all but train knock on passes straight into

their chests. We must persist with it as the old 'blood, boot and bollock' will not do - too tiring and we are

then picked off in final quarter. Got to have faith in BOD and POC refusing to retire without some glory at

least at RWC - semi-final place.

Very sensible post, let's hope your prediction is accurate!

williab2
14th-February-2011, 21:11
Sewa talking rubbish as always. Rog was very commanding in the last
couple of Hec games. I would love Rog to start the Scotland game.
See how limited d chap has become. You would swear he has being
playing great for munster.

sewa
14th-February-2011, 21:18
Sewa talking rubbish as always. Rog was very commanding in the last
couple of Hec games. I would love Rog to start the Scotland game.
See how limited d chap has become. You would swear he has being
playing great for munster.

Come back when you have a proper user name. Was someone else using williab1 smileys/lol.gif

Thomond78
14th-February-2011, 22:04
Also precedent with Ward/Campbell in
1981...that didn't turn out well...not a chance in hell Kidney is
going to make a change like that.

But it worked a charm for England in 2003. It depends on the
personnel; works in some cases, doesn't in others. It's worth
a try, certainly, given The Dorse Unpleasantness. Problem is -
when?

Consumer
14th-February-2011, 22:28
To be honest there's no real difference between the two. They both do as they're told and stick to Kidney's gameplan and set pieces rigidly. About as good as the other at converting. People talk about ROG's drop goal against the Italians, remember Sexton's drop goal to open the 2009 Heineken cup from 45 yards? Whoever is in better form on the day should get the nod.

With the scrum halfs it's horses for courses. Reddan and Stringer for teams we want to outscore and who can't hurt our defence (like Italy/Scotland), TOL for physical teams who we need to contain (like France).

In my opinion whenever TOL isn't playing at 9 he should be a serious consideration for wing.

Thomond78
14th-February-2011, 22:38
The more I see of TOL running with the ball - angles, power,
and speed - the more I think we might have turned a great
winger into an average scrum-half. smileys/c&#111;nfused.gif

sewa
14th-February-2011, 22:39
Did you even see what Rog did when he came on? Slotted us down into the french 22. Took the pressure off our fwds and put it on theirs. Simple psychology, Fwds love going fwd, hate going back.

Thomond78
14th-February-2011, 22:42
Did you even see what Rog did when he
came on? Slotted us down into the french 22. Took the
pressure off our fwds and put it on theirs. Simple psychology,
Fwds love going fwd, hate going back.

Props aren't built for a small turning circle, true. Apparently, if
you want to turn Nuke around, you've got to start about ten
miles out...

Consumer
14th-February-2011, 22:44
Did you even see what Rog did when he came on? Slotted us down into the french 22. Took the pressure off our fwds and put it on theirs. Simple psychology, Fwds love going fwd, hate going back.

Yeah but to be fair Kidney would have told him to do that, that's why he was put on the field when he was.

sewa
14th-February-2011, 22:49
Did you even see what Rog did when he came on? Slotted us down into the french 22. Took the pressure off our fwds and put it on theirs. Simple psychology, Fwds love going fwd, hate going back.Yeah but to be fair Kidney would have told him to do that, that's why he was put on the field when he was.

So sexton is too stupid to do it? The reason it worked for Rog is the French back three had an easy game with no tactical kicking until he came on

Consumer
14th-February-2011, 23:16
Did you even see what Rog did when he came on? Slotted us down into the french 22. Took the pressure off our fwds and put it on theirs. Simple psychology, Fwds love going fwd, hate going back.Yeah but to be fair Kidney would have told him to do that, that's why he was put on the field when he was.



So sexton is too stupid to do it? The reason it worked for Rog is the French back three had an easy game with no tactical kicking until he came on

No, Sexton was sent on with instructions to play one way, then Kidney saw we needed to change our game and sent ROG on with those instructions.

Even reading ROG's autobiography it's clear that deviating from the coach's instructions equals instant losing of your place.

Mcork
15th-February-2011, 06:29
Could a journalist ask Kidney the question whether he has 'encouraged' Sexton not to kick the ball during that match? Afterall he has spoken about sticking rigidly to this 'ball in hand' game. There is a case to say that Sexton was expected not to kick considering the strenght of the French lineout &amp; counterattack..

Personally I think we certainly need to kick for possesion more, however the aimless kicking of a year or so ago would be punished against any half decent side. The quality of the kick and where you kick is critical.

Ireland had a distict disadvantage numerically on the French throw so kicking was basically giving them back the ball. That said, as long as the kick puts them far back into their own 22, then it is worth doing as it basically forces them to kick themselves.

Point
15th-February-2011, 07:08
In my opinion whenever TOL isn't playing at 9 he should be a serious consideration for wing.



Yes, he is a wing, though I would like to see him triedat fullback where he has all the skills required for that position, unlike scrumhalf where he lacks a pass of any sort of quality.

jeepers
15th-February-2011, 07:25
Could a journalist ask Kidney the question whether he has 'encouraged' Sexton not to kick the ball during that match? Afterall he has spoken about sticking rigidly to this 'ball in hand' game. There is a case to say that Sexton was expected not to kick considering the strenght of the French lineout &amp; counterattack..

Personally I think we certainly need to kick for possesion more, however the aimless kicking of a year or so ago would be punished against any half decent side. The quality of the kick and where you kick is critical.

Ireland had a distinct disadvantage numerically on the French throw so kicking was basically giving them back the ball. That said, as long as the kick puts them far back into their own 22, then it is worth doing as it basically forces them to kick themselves.


I seem to remember BOD saying after the SA game in the autumn that he wasn't able to influence the way that Ireland were playing the game. You may recall, O'Gara &amp; Stringer came on and changed it.

BOD's comment would lead one to believe that they are allowed make onfield decisions themselves as to how to play the game.

Mcork
15th-February-2011, 07:28
In my opinion whenever TOL isn't playing at 9 he should be a serious consideration for wing.



Yes, he is a wing, though I would like to see him triedat fullback where he has all the skills required for that position, unlike scrumhalf where he lacks a pass of any sort of quality.

His kicking is absolutely brutal though. Would rule him out of FB role. Could see him on the wing though.

Cowboy
15th-February-2011, 07:39
In my opinion
whenever TOL isn't playing at 9 he should be a serious
consideration for wing.


Yes, he is a wing, though I would like to see him tried*at
fullback where he has all the skills required for that
position, unlike scrumhalf where he lacks a pass of any sort
of quality.His kicking is absolutely brutal
though. Would rule him out of FB role. Could see him on the
wing though.

I think his kicking ain't too hot either, is he possibly too
short for 15? Most international full backs are tall men
these days with a huge leap.

Hugonaut
15th-February-2011, 07:55
In my opinion whenever TOL isn't playing at 9 he should be a serious consideration for wing.



Yes, he is a wing, though I would like to see him triedat fullback where he has all the skills required for that position, unlike scrumhalf where he lacks a pass of any sort of quality.

That's a bonkers statement, Point!

Positioning, aerial ability and touch-finding/long-range kicking all in his artillery then? The ability to beat a man one-on-one when behind his entire team? Good option-taking in short time periods? Good awareness of space? The organisational skills and awareness as to how and where to counter-attack? Calmness under pressure?

You could argue that O'Leary has none</span> of these; it'd be a Sisyphean task to argue that he has them all.

He's short for a full-back, he has good pace but no step, his game-awareness is average at best and he instills no confidence in the players in front of him. As far as I'm aware, he has never played a competitive match there, and you think that he has "all</span> the skills for that position"?

No Irish FB has all</span> the skills - Geordan Murphy can't tackle for sh*t and can be too laissez-faire</span>/flaky with the pill, Rob Kearney isn't a top-rate counter-attacker [and can't tackle on his right shoulder], Luke Fitzgerald isn't good under the high ball and makes poor decisions behind his team, Girvan Dempsey didn't show enough invention or threat when counter-attacking and Gavin Duffy lacks international pace and line-breaking ability with ball in-hand when hitting the line. Denis Hurley has major issues with the high ball and has a limited kicking game and nobody knows anything about how Felix Jones will hold up because he's consistently injured.

The idea that Tomás O'Leary could turn into a fullback of any standard at 27 years old is absolute pie-in-the-sky stuff.

He's a heavyweight scrum-half - the type of guy you start when you're going to play Toulon or Leicester or Clermont away and you're worried about them rumbling around the corners. There's no harm in having a horses-for-courses selection option like that in the squad; as you know yourself, it's a great plus.

The fact that Kidney thinks he's the best scrum-half in Ireland and that he's compatible with the way he's trying to play the game is continually surprising, though.

Mcork
15th-February-2011, 08:24
He's a heavyweight scrum-half - the type of guy you start when you're going to play Toulon or Leicester or Clermont away and you're worried about them rumbling around the corners. There's no harm in having a horses-for-courses selection option like that in the squad; as you know yourself, it's a great plus.

The fact that Kidney thinks he's the best scrum-half in Ireland and that he's compatible with the way he's trying to play the game is continually surprising, though.


I think that is spot on. TO'L is the sort of guy you want in the trenches but not with the fast pace game we are playing now. It is frustrating to watch, he's like a duck out of water. He was perfectly suited to how we were playing 2009.

i_like_cake
15th-February-2011, 08:58
In my opinion whenever TOL isn't playing at 9 he should be a serious consideration for wing.



Yes, he is a wing, though I would like to see him triedat fullback where he has all the skills required for that position, unlike scrumhalf where he lacks a pass of any sort of quality.

That's a bonkers statement, Point!

Positioning,
aerial ability and touch-finding/long-range kicking all in his
artillery then? The ability to beat a man one-on-one when behind his
entire team? Good option-taking in short time periods? Good awareness
of space? The organisational skills and awareness as to how and where
to counter-attack? Calmness under pressure?

You could argue that O'Leary has none</span> of these; it'd be a Sisyphean</span> task to argue that he has them all.

He's
short for a full-back, he has good pace but no step, his game-awareness
is average at best and he instills no confidence in the players in
front of him. As far as I'm aware, he has never played a competitive
match there, and you think that he has "all</span> the skills for that position"?

No Irish FB has all</span> the skills - Geordan Murphy can't tackle for sh*t and can be too laissez-faire</span>/flaky
with the pill, Rob Kearney isn't a top-rate counter-attacker [and can't
tackle on his right shoulder], Luke Fitzgerald isn't good under the
high ball and makes poor decisions behind his team, Girvan Dempsey
didn't show enough invention or threat when counter-attacking and Gavin
Duffy lacks international pace and line-breaking ability with ball
in-hand when hitting the line. Denis Hurley has major issues with the
high ball and has a limited kicking game and nobody knows anything
about how Felix Jones will hold up because he's consistently injured.

The idea that Tomás O'Leary could turn into a fullback of any standard at 27 years old is absolute pie-in-the-sky stuff.

He's
a heavyweight scrum-half - the type of guy you start when you're going
to play Toulon or Leicester or Clermont away and you're worried about
them rumbling around the corners. There's no harm in having a
horses-for-courses selection option like that in the squad; as you know
yourself, it's a great plus.

The fact that Kidney thinks he's
the best scrum-half in Ireland and that he's compatible with the way
he's trying to play the game is continually surprising, though.




Someone was watching eggheads yesterday... but I'd agree with all of that....

For a country that produces Gaelic footballers en-masse... its
unbelievably ridiculous a situation to be in... Oh for a 26yr old Shaun
Payne....

Balla Boy
15th-February-2011, 10:41
He's a heavyweight scrum-half - the type of guy you start when you're going to play Toulon or Leicester or Clermont away and you're worried about them rumbling around the corners. There's no harm in having a horses-for-courses selection option like that in the squad; as you know yourself, it's a great plus.

The fact that Kidney thinks he's the best scrum-half in Ireland and that he's compatible with the way he's trying to play the game is continually surprising, though.


I think that is spot on. TO'L is the sort of guy you want in the trenches but not with the fast pace game we are playing now. It is frustrating to watch, he's like a duck out of water. He was perfectly suited to how we were playing 2009.



I think it depends on where Kidney sees the game plan going. In a team that is better at keeping the ball alive, he'd be less exposed - a la Phillips for Wales.


He'd be another loose forward adding pace and strong carrying.


It's our tendency to go to the floor that is his biggest blocker. It means that he finds himself at the back foot of the ruck more often than he'd like.

outside inside
15th-February-2011, 11:01
People who call for Rog / Stringer seem to have forgotten how teams play against us when they are picked , they keep running down the 10 channel .With Tol and Sexton they are stopped dead and have now shifted to attacking the midfield or trying to get outside . I cannot remember the last time a French side created so little against Ire , the main reason was we did not kick the ball back to them . Sexton should have kicked on only a couple of occasions keeping the ball in hand is the way to go . Improvementin the clear out , better leg drive in contact and a little more depth from the runners will speed up the ball .They are 80% there keep playing this way the number of errorswill reduceaided by better kick choice . Midfield is the major problem now cover for Bod , would love to see Bod to 12 and Bowe to 13 would give the option to truck the ball occasionally .

Mcork
15th-February-2011, 11:04
He's a heavyweight scrum-half - the type of guy you start when you're going to play Toulon or Leicester or Clermont away and you're worried about them rumbling around the corners. There's no harm in having a horses-for-courses selection option like that in the squad; as you know yourself, it's a great plus.

The fact that Kidney thinks he's the best scrum-half in Ireland and that he's compatible with the way he's trying to play the game is continually surprising, though.


I think that is spot on. TO'L is the sort of guy you want in the trenches but not with the fast pace game we are playing now. It is frustrating to watch, he's like a duck out of water. He was perfectly suited to how we were playing 2009.



I think it depends on where Kidney sees the game plan going. In a team that is better at keeping the ball alive, he'd be less exposed - a la Phillips for Wales.


He'd be another loose forward adding pace and strong carrying.


It's our tendency to go to the floor that is his biggest blocker. It means that he finds himself at the back foot of the ruck more often than he'd like.

True but I think it is inevitable the ball will go to floor a lot in an INTL match and that has to be taken into account. Just looking around the other SH's playing in the NH, Young, Parra, Blair, Phillips. the 1st 2 are nippy clever players, pacy but not overly physical. Is there significance in the fact that the SH's struggling the most (or at least attracting the most criticism)in this 6n's are the 2 most physical and probably not the greatest or fastest distributors or is it that they are both just off form?

TBH I'm not a fan of Reddan. he had a very poor match v SA when he got his chance. However if I was to pick the player most suited to the game we are playing, it is he. Not as good a distributor as Stringer but certainly better than TO'L in this regard. He has pace (not a smuch as TO'L but not far behind) which gives him the option to snipe.

Thomond78
15th-February-2011, 11:12
People who call for Rog / Stringer seem
to have forgotten how teams play against us when they are picked ,
they keep running down the 10 channel .With Tol and Sexton they are
stopped dead and have now shifted to attacking the midfield or trying
to get outside . I cannot remember the last time a French side
created so little against Ire , the main reason was we did not kick the
ball back to them . Sexton should have kicked on only a couple of
occasions keeping the ball in hand is the way to go . Improvement*in
the clear out , better leg drive in contact and a little more depth from
the runners will speed up the ball .They are 80% there keep playing
this way the number of errors*will reduce*aided by better kick choice .
Midfield is the major problem now cover for Bod , would love to see
Bod to 12 and Bowe to 13 would give the option to truck the ball
occasionally .*


*

jeepers
15th-February-2011, 11:17
People who call for Rog / Stringer seem to have forgotten how teams play against us when they are picked , they keep running down the 10 channel</span> .With Tol and Sexton they are stopped dead and have now shifted to attacking the midfield or trying to get outside . I cannot remember the last time a French side created so little against Ire , the main reason was we did not kick the ball back to them . Sexton should have kicked on only a couple of occasions keeping the ball in hand is the way to go . Improvementin the clear out , better leg drive in contact and a little more depth from the runners will speed up the ball .They are 80% there keep playing this way the number of errorswill reduceaided by better kick choice . Midfield is the major problem now cover for Bod , would love to see Bod to 12 and Bowe to 13 would give the option to truck the ball occasionally .


So predictable and easier to defend! No? D'Arcy gets run over instead of ROG. No one was expecting that one!

Balla Boy
15th-February-2011, 11:20
True but I think it is inevitable the ball will go to floor a lot in an INTL match and that has to be taken into account. Just looking around the other SH's playing in the NH, Young, Parra, Blair, Phillips. the 1st 2 are nippy clever players, pacy but not overly physical. Is there significance in the fact that the SH's struggling the most (or at least attracting the most criticism)in this 6n's are the 2 most physical and probably not the greatest or fastest distributors or is it that they are both just off form?





No coincidence at all. The "tackler roll away" emphasis has made it easier to maintain momentum through a rapid ruck game, with clearers blasting the retreating tacklers. So there's more rucks.


At the same time, the crackdown on bodies on the floor has discouraged teams from putting bodies into defensive rucks, which means that the fringe defences are more crowded than ever and the snipe around the fringe largely shut off.


So a double whammy for the likes of TOL and Phillips, whose breaking game is restricted and who are forced to the back of the ruck over and over.


No coincidence either that TOL's most convincing break came at the back of a line out on first phase ball, with no fringe defence to worry about.

Thomond78
15th-February-2011, 11:28
People who call for Rog / Stringer seem
to have forgotten how teams play against us when they are picked ,
they keep running down the 10 channel .With Tol and Sexton they are
stopped dead and have now shifted to attacking the midfield or trying
to get outside . I cannot remember the last time a French side
created so little against Ire , the main reason was we did not kick the
ball back to them . Sexton should have kicked on only a couple of
occasions keeping the ball in hand is the way to go . Improvement*in
the clear out , better leg drive in contact and a little more depth from
the runners will speed up the ball .They are 80% there keep playing
this way the number of errors*will reduce*aided by better kick choice .
Midfield is the major problem now cover for Bod , would love to
seeBod to 12 and Bowe to 13 would give the option to truck the
balloccasionally .*



What happens if people try to go down the 10 channel all day is
simple. They're running straight back into the bear-hug of the back
row. They then slow ball, if they get it back at all. It's easy as hell to
defend, just like Toulon defended McGahanball by having a back row
in the one-out channel; it's how Munster have nullified better
backlines for years. If running in the 10 channel were such a
guaranteed return, and defending that channel the be-all and end-all,
then it's odd that ourbest winning streak was with ROG there; and
that not only are we now scoring fewer tries, we're conceding more
scores than we were in 2009, with much the same personnel.

Sexton is making some very bad decisions at the moment. He near as
damn it wrecked what should have been a run-in when TOL had to
save his blushes. Teams are now starting to defend against him with
a push-up and slide, as France did for the loop into touch. He's not
varying his game to make a defence think. He's on very thin ice,
because right now he's not delivering as he should be.

Hugonaut
15th-February-2011, 11:30
True but I think it is inevitable the ball will go to floor a lot in an INTL match and that has to be taken into account. Just looking around the other SH's playing in the NH, Young, Parra, Blair, Phillips. the 1st 2 are nippy clever players, pacy but not overly physical. Is there significance in the fact that the SH's struggling the most (or at least attracting the most criticism)in this 6n's are the 2 most physical and probably not the greatest or fastest distributors or is it that they are both just off form?





No coincidence at all. The "tackler roll away" emphasis has made it easier to maintain momentum through a rapid ruck game, with clearers blasting the retreating tacklers. So there's more rucks.


At the same time, the crackdown on bodies on the floor has discouraged teams from putting bodies into defensive rucks, which means that the fringe defences are more crowded than ever and the snipe around the fringe largely shut off.


So a double whammy for the likes of TOL and Phillips, whose breaking game is restricted and who are forced to the back of the ruck over and over.


No coincidence either that TOL's most convincing break came at the back of a line out on first phase ball, with no fringe defence to worry about.

Great points Balla. Good big picture thinking.

In your line of thinking, is the relationship between Pt.1 &amp; Pt.2 that because there is nobody competing for the ball at the tackle, there's less [or no] competition from additional players at the ensuing breakdown/ruck?

For example, if the Boks saw that there was a Brussouw hovering over the ball, they'd throw themselves in and compete, but because it's difficult for him to do that under the way the law is interpreted, they now fan out more rather than contest?

Thomond78
15th-February-2011, 11:41
It's not so much that there are more rucks, more that they're quicker.
Ruck ball is now three second ball, not five, so you're up against a
retreating, or at best unset, defence. It means a pass to get it wider
fast once you've got the defence retreating and fast ball is the key.
The ninth forwards, like TOL and Philips, who were perfect for hard-
yards stuff on five-second ball are now being left down by their
decision-making and passing of three-second ball.

Hugonaut
15th-February-2011, 11:47
People who call for Rog / Stringer seem

to have forgotten how teams play against us when they are picked ,

they keep running down the 10 channel .With Tol and Sexton they are

stopped dead and have now shifted to attacking the midfield or trying

to get outside . I cannot remember the last time a French side

created so little against Ire , the main reason was we did not kick the

ball back to them . Sexton should have kicked on only a couple of

occasions keeping the ball in hand is the way to go . Improvementin

the clear out , better leg drive in contact and a little more depth from

the runners will speed up the ball .They are 80% there keep playing

this way the number of errorswill reduceaided by better kick choice .

Midfield is the major problem now cover for Bod , would love to

seeBod to 12 and Bowe to 13 would give the option to truck the

balloccasionally .







What happens if people try to go down the 10 channel all day is

simple. They're running straight back into the bear-hug of the back

row. They then slow ball, if they get it back at all. It's easy as hell to

defend, just like Toulon defended McGahanball by having a back row

in the one-out channel; it's how Munster have nullified better

backlines for years. If running in the 10 channel were such a

guaranteed return, and defending that channel the be-all and end-all,

then it's odd that ourbest winning streak was with ROG there; and

that not only are we now scoring fewer tries, we're conceding more

scores than we were in 2009, with much the same personnel.



Sexton is making some very bad decisions at the moment. He near as

damn it wrecked what should have been a run-in when TOL had to

save his blushes. Teams are now starting to defend against him with

a push-up and slide, as France did for the loop into touch. He's not

varying his game to make a defence think. He's on very thin ice,

because right now he's not delivering as he should be.

On the other hand, look at what England did to Italy - if you take the ball at the gainline and can break the tackle at 10 with pace, you're behind everybody. One off-load to a guy on your shoulder and you're in, a la Youngs-Flood-Ashton.

That Italian OH Orquera was a tidy little footballer, but he was little: 171cm and 78kg - just a smidgen over Stringer's size.

O'Gara's not quite as poor a defender as the Italian OH, but you can make yards over him an awful lot of the time: the idea that a decent pack struggles to get ball back when somebody has run over O'Gara is bizarre – they've usually just made 5-6m straight down the middle of the park with the rest of the pack streaming on to the ball.

You're right, Sexton isn't quite varying his game enough, and has made very bad calls in consecutive matches close to the opposition try-line. I think that Kidney's post-match comments were a tacit statement that he'll be sticking with him as a starter though.

Mcork
15th-February-2011, 11:50
Good points being made.

And yet we contested the ball a lot at the breakdown saturday (mainly after giving away the ball in dangerous positions) and gave away a lot of penalties as a result. Another area we we need to rethink what we do?

Balla Boy
15th-February-2011, 11:57
Great points Balla. Good big picture thinking.

In your line of thinking, is the relationship between Pt.1 &amp; Pt.2 that because there is nobody competing for the ball at the tackle, there's less [or no] competition from additional players at the ensuing breakdown/ruck?

For example, if the Boks saw that there was a Brussouw hovering over the ball, they'd throw themselves in and compete, but because it's difficult for him to do that under the way the law is interpreted, they now fan out more rather than contest?



I think that's what I think, but I might be misreading.


I think there are a couple of key changes. One is around the tackler. Until recently, a player like BOD would make the tackle, spin around on top of his man, start competing for the ball and then stand up. Very hard to clear from an attacking point of view, and well worth re-inforcing from defence, as the ball was as likely to come out on your side as the other.


Now, the tackler has to release before the tackled player has to do anything. So if the supporting runners get there in numbers, they should be able to secure the ball quickly, as they only really need to get over it - there's no contest as such.


The ref's are also quicker to shout "that's lost Green" at any Irish back row who is eyeing the ball at the back.


From a defensive perspective, this seems to have led to teams thinking "well, that's secure and we can't win it" quite early, and so fanning out so that the opposition have fewer options with the clean ball. This is (to my mind) what Munster's opposition have been doing all year, creating blanket defences in the narrow channels. It's also what Italy did to us quite effectively in Rome.


Between the restrictions on the tackle, and the seeming reluctance of teams to commit to counter-rucking, there's loads of fringe defence.


From an attacking perspective, it's encouraged the ruck game. Until recently, the emphasis was very much on trying to keep the ball alive through lay off and pop up, as taking it into contact meant being slowed down horribly. Now a good carrier can hit it up, one or two supporters fly in and you've got good clean ball to work with - hence the resurgence in Stringer's effectiveness for Munster. He'll go from ruck to ruck to ruck lashing that fast ball out, and his limited breaking game is rendered largely irrelevant by the volume of defence at the fringes.


It's not written in stone though. Ireland got some good returns on Sunday by counter-rucking aggressively.


All in all though, the balance at the tackle/breakdown has been (quite deliberately) tipped in favour of the attacking side, and the general defensive response has been to not waste bodies chasing lost ball, but stack the defence in the hope of isolating and outnumbering carriers, and getting the turnovers that way.


So Tomas is faced with a game where he's offered very few chances to break and where speed of delivery from ruck ball is once more his primary responsibilty. Bad news for both him and Mikey P.

Thomond78
15th-February-2011, 12:06
We were pushing it too hard. We were, at times, looking for
turnovers, instead of realising that slowing it to five second ball, and
allowing the defence reset, would do fine.

At its best, the Munster back row was peerless at this. Sooner or
later, if they're getting no fast ball they can use, and aren't making
ground, they'll push a ball, and you'll get a turnover. It's discipline;
but it also requires those outside to call it in to those in the ruck.
That's a strength of Stringer in particular; decision making.

Aussiedub
15th-February-2011, 12:10
The most important thing to be done by Irish defenders is that after they have tackled the player the most important thing to be done is let go and stop giving penalties away by holding on.

slipper1
15th-February-2011, 12:26
the laws have swung it back in favour of the quicker playmaking scrumhalf who can read a game well, like Stringer's reverse pass for Leamy v Toulon at TP. Ben Youngs is a good example when he has go forward ball but he was a disaster behind a retreating packagainst South Africa and subbed off.I remember that thevery first ball McCaw got v Ireland in the Autumn he went straight for Sexton and found out there and then that he wouldn't have an easyIrish option. The new laws have hit him hard too, he's not got the same impact on games.


I think it's about finding a right balance, Stringer/ Bossand Sexton would be my pick, with the backrow and centers providing running options for scrumhalf.





on Irish playersnot releasing tackled player v France - ironically enough the IRFU sought clarification on this last year. http://www.irblaws.com/EN/clarificationdetail/year/2010/3 (http://www.irblaws.com/EN/clarificati&#111;ndetail/year/2010/3)

Mcork
15th-February-2011, 12:51
Very good analysis there BallaB. Can you post that through in an email to DK and put Gatland on copy? On 2nd thoughts, leave Gatland off the copy list for now. We'll let him know after our game before they play France.smileys/wink.gif

Hugonaut
15th-February-2011, 12:51
The most important thing to be done by Irish defenders is that after they have tackled the player the most important thing to be done is let go and stop giving penalties away by holding on.

Pretty much!

When Heaslip got in after 25 phases, Pearson wasn't playing advantage to Ireland - France had defended their goal-line for 20+ phases without conceding a penalty. We couldn't even defend our half</span> for 4 or 5 phases without conceding a penalty.

Thomond78
15th-February-2011, 13:07
Great points Balla. Good big picture thinking. In your
line of thinking, is the relationship between Pt.1 & Pt.2 that
because there is nobody competing for the ball at the
tackle, there's less [or no] competition from additional
players at the ensuing breakdown/ruck? For example, if the
Boks saw that there was a Brussouw hovering over the
ball, they'd throw themselves in and compete, but because
it's difficult for him to do that under the way the law is
interpreted, they now fan out more rather than contest?



I think that's what I think, but I might be misreading.



I think there are a couple of key changes. One is around
the tackler. Until recently, a player like BOD would make
the tackle, spin around on top of his man, start competing
for the ball and then stand up. Very hard to clear from an
attacking point of view, and well worth re-inforcing from
defence, as the ball was as likely to come out on your side
as the other.


Now, the tackler has to release before the tackled
player has to do anything. So if the supporting runners get
there in numbers, they should be able to secure the ball
quickly, as they only really need to get over it - there's no
contest as such.


The ref's are also quicker to shout "that's lost Green" at
any Irish back row who is eyeing the ball at the back.


From a defensive perspective, this seems to have led to
teams thinking "well, that's secure and we can't win it"
quite early, and so fanning out so that the opposition have
fewer options with the clean ball. This is (to my mind) what
Munster's opposition have been doing all year, creating
blanket defences in the narrow channels. It's also what
Italy did to us quite effectively in Rome.


Between the restrictions on the tackle, and the seeming
reluctance of teams to commit to counter-rucking, there's
loads of fringe defence.


From an attacking perspective, it's encouraged the ruck
game. Until recently, the emphasis was very much on
trying to keep the ball alive through lay off and pop up, as
taking it into contact meant being slowed down horribly.
Now a good carrier can hit it up, one or two supporters fly
in and you've got good clean ball to work with - hence the
resurgence in Stringer's effectiveness for Munster. He'll go
from ruck to ruck to ruck lashing that fast ball out, and his
limited breaking game is rendered largely irrelevant by the
volume of defence at the fringes.


It's not written in stone though. Ireland got some good
returns on Sunday by counter-rucking aggressively.


All in all though, the balance at the tackle/breakdown
has been (quite deliberately) tipped in favour of the
attacking side, and the general defensive response has
been to not waste bodies chasing lost ball, but stack the
defence in the hope of isolating and outnumbering carriers,
and getting the turnovers that way.


So Tomas is faced with a game where he's offered very
few chances to break and where speed of delivery from
ruck ball is once more his primary responsibilty. Bad news
for both him and Mikey P.

And what you do in attack is, you do NOT go one-out. One-
out was right against the five-second ruck; by the time you
got it out, it would be slow, probably scrappy, and the
fringes would be packed. So, you went one-out, and aimed
to blast over to speed it up again, pull some of the outside
defenders in, and get decent ball.

Now, though, if you go one-out, you just run straight into
the clump of defenders fanning out. You'll be isolated, and
chances are you'll turn it o

JoeyFantastic
15th-February-2011, 13:15
TOL is so lacking in self
belief that his score on sat will bring him on amazingly


Really, I heard the only thing TOL doesn't lack to be a decent
scrumhalf is self-belief. He has loads of that and little else in
the way of scrumhalf skills.

Balla Boy
15th-February-2011, 13:17
Agreed, T78 - I think that's what those of us who've called for a slightly more traditional approach from Munster up front have been looking for. Rapid pick and goes, driving in twos and threes around the fringes. Force the opposition to either yield the yards or commit the bodies to stop you.


It looks old fashioned, but when we have done it (Toulon at home and late on against LI) we've made yards for fun.


We made major headway against the French like that as well - once we were rolling forward, we seemed to make ground very easily.


If they do commit to contesting it, then go wide and there should be more space.

Benji
15th-February-2011, 13:18
Good piece *******

Combatlogo
15th-February-2011, 13:25
[QUOTE=Hugonaut]



Great points Balla. Good big picture thinking. In your
line of thinking, is the relationship between Pt.1 &amp; Pt.2 that
because there is nobody competing for the ball at the
tackle, there's less [or no] competition from additional
players at the ensuing breakdown/ruck? For example, if the
Boks saw that there was a Brussouw hovering over the
ball, they'd throw themselves in and compete, but because
it's difficult for him to do that under the way the law is
interpreted, they now fan out more rather than contest?




I think that's what I think, but I might be misreading.




I think there are a couple of key changes. One is around
the tackler. Until recently, a player like BOD would make
the tackle, spin around on top of his man, start competing
for the ball and then stand up. Very hard to clear from an
attacking point of view, and well worth re-inforcing from
defence, as the ball was as likely to come out on your side
as the other.



Now, the tackler has to release before the tackled
player has to do anything. So if the supporting runners get
there in numbers, they should be able to secure the ball
quickly, as they only really need to get over it - there's no
contest as such.



The ref's are also quicker to shout "that's lost Green" at
any Irish back row who is eyeing the ball at the back.



From a defensive perspective, this seems to have led to
teams thinking "well, that's secure and we can't win it"
quite early, and so fanning out so that the opposition have
fewer options with the clean ball. This is (to my mind) what
Munster's opposition have been doing all year, creating
blanket defences in the narrow channels. It's also what
Italy did to us quite effectively in Rome.



Between the restrictions on the tackle, and the seeming
reluctance of teams to commit to counter-rucking, there's
loads of fringe defence.



From an attacking perspective, it's encouraged the ruck
game. Until recently, the emphasis was very much on
trying to keep the ball alive through lay off and pop up, as
taking it into contact meant being slowed down horribly.
Now a good carrier can hit it up, one or two supporters fly
in and you've got good clean ball to work with - hence the
resurgence in Stringer's effectiveness for Munster. He'll go
from ruck to ruck to ruck lashing that fast ball out, and his
limited breaking game is rendered largely irrelevant by the
volume of defence at the fringes.



It's not written in stone though. Ireland got some good
returns on Sunday by counter-rucking aggressively.



All in all though, the balance at the tackle/breakdown
has been (quite deliberately) tipped in favour of the
attacking side, and the general defensive response has
been to not waste bodies chasing lost ball, but stack the
defence in the hope of isolating and outnumbering carriers,
and getting the turnovers that way.



So Tomas is faced with a game where he's offered very
few chances to break and where speed of delivery from
ruck ball is once more his primary responsibilty. Bad news
for both him and Mikey P.




And what you do in attack is, you do NOT go one-out. One-
out was right against the five-second ruck; by the time you
got it out, it would be slow, probably scrappy, and the
fringes would be packed. So, you went one-out, and aimed
to blast over to speed it up again, pull some of the outside
defenders in, and get decent ball.

Now, though, if you go one-out, you just run straight into
the clump of defenders fanning out. You'll be isolated, and
chances are you'll turn it over or give away a penalty.

What you do instead - and you could see the ground we
made with this on Sunday, and the same is true for
Munste

Stringer9
15th-February-2011, 13:32
We all know that DK will continue to play Sexton and TOL till we're grey with stress.
TOL has been crap if we're honest, try aside, he's been very poor for a long time, he was slightly better against France, but he shouldn't deserve a starting palce of it. And it's all good and well to be parked at the line, but not being able to get over, he might be the best of the SH when it comes to physicality and the ability to break, but he doesn't have the brain that lets him see what is the best option. So he will try and do it himself or go for the obvious option, which isn't always the best.
Sexton, for all the world seems a bit short of a rugby brain, just like TOL in a way. Sexton is fine when he's nice and supported by the forwards, playing a strong game, and he's great when it's nice and easy, but when things are back to the wall, really tough he panics.

But I'm convinced that Kidney will go through every combination he can to avoid playing ROG and Strings because in his mind, that's probably a step back, he probably wants to try something new.
But when we play those 2 together we've a smarter SH who uses his head and is on form, who bosses the pack about, and stays in control, and a 10 who does thrives under pressure and no matter what, knows what needs to be done.
No we wont have the best defence there, but that combo has worked for years. And there's a reason it's worked.
Both are in form, both deserve a go.
Sometimes the old guard needs to be played.

Or of course at SH we also have Reddan, who I wouldn't be too sure about, but he improved the pace of the game when he came on (not like that's hard with TOL at the moment)
And then we've Boss, who I never really rated but seems to be going well at the moment.
But there has to be a change at SH. And SURELY Kidney can see that.

rathbaner
15th-February-2011, 13:35
[QUOTE=Hugonaut]



Great points Balla. Good big picture thinking. In your

line of thinking, is the relationship between Pt.1 &amp; Pt.2 that

because there is nobody competing for the ball at the

tackle, there's less [or no] competition from additional

players at the ensuing breakdown/ruck? For example, if the

Boks saw that there was a Brussouw hovering over the

ball, they'd throw themselves in and compete, but because

it's difficult for him to do that under the way the law is

interpreted, they now fan out more rather than contest?





I think that's what I think, but I might be misreading.





I think there are a couple of key changes. One is around

the tackler. Until recently, a player like BOD would make

the tackle, spin around on top of his man, start competing

for the ball and then stand up. Very hard to clear from an

attacking point of view, and well worth re-inforcing from

defence, as the ball was as likely to come out on your side

as the other.



Now, the tackler has to release before the tackled

player has to do anything. So if the supporting runners get

there in numbers, they should be able to secure the ball

quickly, as they only really need to get over it - there's no

contest as such.



The ref's are also quicker to shout "that's lost Green" at

any Irish back row who is eyeing the ball at the back.



From a defensive perspective, this seems to have led to

teams thinking "well, that's secure and we can't win it"

quite early, and so fanning out so that the opposition have

fewer options with the clean ball. This is (to my mind) what

Munster's opposition have been doing all year, creating

blanket defences in the narrow channels. It's also what

Italy did to us quite effectively in Rome.



Between the restrictions on the tackle, and the seeming

reluctance of teams to commit to counter-rucking, there's

loads of fringe defence.



From an attacking perspective, it's encouraged the ruck

game. Until recently, the emphasis was very much on

trying to keep the ball alive through lay off and pop up, as

taking it into contact meant being slowed down horribly.

Now a good carrier can hit it up, one or two supporters fly

in and you've got good clean ball to work with - hence the

resurgence in Stringer's effectiveness for Munster. He'll go

from ruck to ruck to ruck lashing that fast ball out, and his

limited breaking game is rendered largely irrelevant by the

volume of defence at the fringes.



It's not written in stone though. Ireland got some good

returns on Sunday by counter-rucking aggressively.



All in all though, the balance at the tackle/breakdown

has been (quite deliberately) tipped in favour of the

attacking side, and the general defensive response has

been to not waste bodies chasing lost ball, but stack the

defence in the hope of isolating and outnumbering carriers,

and getting the turnovers that way.



So Tomas is faced with a game where he's offered very

few chances to break and where speed of delivery from

ruck ball is once more his primary responsibilty. Bad news

for both him and Mikey P.



And what you do in attack is, you do NOT go one-out. One-

out was right against the five-second ruck; by the time you

got it out, it would be slow, probably scrappy, and the

fringes would be packed. So, you went one-out, and aimed

to blast over to speed it up again, pull some of the outside

defenders in, and get decent ball.



Now, though, if you go one-out, you just run straight into

the clump of defenders fanning out. You'll be isolated, and

chances are you'll turn it over or give away a penalty.



What yo

Hugonaut
15th-February-2011, 13:42
TOL is so lacking in self

belief that his score on sat will bring him on amazingly





Really, I heard the only thing TOL doesn't lack to be a decent

scrumhalf is self-belief. He has loads of that and little else in

the way of scrumhalf skills.

Haha! Love it.

I remember reading a fairly recent interview with O'Leary where he repeatedly derided people who were criticising him by saying something very like, "Sure what standard did they play at?"

It just made me think:
a] how few players say that nowadays, be it through media training or just being a little more self-confident as regards [deserved] criticism
b] how much of a d*ck it made him seem

slipper1
15th-February-2011, 13:43
good analysis lads, and I agree the adv is with the attacking team. And we ballooned a few box-kicks and kicked balls out on the full.


on the scrumhalf issue, I think a big part of it is opposition have TOL figured out. There's not alot to it really, just watch who he looks at when he's at a ruck standing over a ball and organise your defense accordingly. I'm still focking amazed by the 25 phases tbh, the French backrow knew where the ball was going each time andDusautoir was involved in almost every tackle. Leinster done the same in September btw.


a neutral Brian 'the mouth' Moore said every Frenchscore was Ireland's making, it was as France knew what was about to happen each time on their ball and on our ball.

Thomond78
15th-February-2011, 13:47
It was noticeable that the French back-line was lining up
incredibly deep. It meant that, once they got fast ball, they
could always straighten, fix and pass.

By contrast, the loop into touch shut down every option there,
and the repeated refusal to fix and then pass to men clear of
defenders out wide has driven me spare looking at the game
again. If the loop is used, then either the man popped to
initially has to come back in against the grain of the defence
or the man looping HAS to straighten up and fix the defence
when getting the ball back, or else it just does the work of the
defence for them in shutting down space.

Hugonaut
15th-February-2011, 13:48
Agreed, T78 - I think that's what those of us who've called for a slightly more traditional approach from Munster up front have been looking for. Rapid pick and goes, driving in twos and threes around the fringes. Force the opposition to either yield the yards or commit the bodies to stop you.


It looks old fashioned, but when we have done it (Toulon at home and late on against LI) we've made yards for fun.


We made major headway against the French like that as well - once we were rolling forward, we seemed to make ground very easily.


If they do commit to contesting it, then go wide and there should be more space.

Like anything though, requires great precision in carrying it out.

Refs are so anti 'pick and jam' that the moment a supporting player/rucker slips and goes to ground, he'll likely get pinged for it straight up. I'd imagine that is especially pointed with refs in Munster games.

Also quite difficult to get up any sort of pace from a standing start. Those players who have that quality [Wally, Sean O'Brien] get stuck at the bottom of the ruck immediately.

I don't think that there's anything intrinsically wrong with a one-out option, it's just that when it's done often and badly with no variation it's as easy as anything else predictable and badly done to defend.

Thomond78
15th-February-2011, 13:50
good analysis lads, and I agree the
adv is with the attacking team. And we ballooned a few
box-kicks and kicked balls out on the full.


on the scrumhalf issue, I think a big part of it is
opposition have TOL figured out. There's not alot to it
really, just watch who he looks at when he's at a ruck
standing over a ball and organise your defense
accordingly. I'm still focking amazed by the 25 phases tbh,
the French backrow knew where the ball was going each
time and*Dusautoir was involved in almost every tackle.
Leinster done the same in September btw.


a neutral Brian 'the mouth' Moore said every
French*score was Ireland's making, it was as France knew
what was about to happen each time on their ball and on
our ball.

The scrum before the loop into touch, TOL was telegraphing
where it was going. I mean, you'd have guessed it anyway,
given where Wally was, but he was looking over his
shoulder the whole time - to the extent that Servat noticed
it, and started looking over himself.

Benji
15th-February-2011, 13:51
But when we play those 2 together we've a smarter SH who uses his head and is on form, who bosses the pack about, and stays in control, and a 10 who does thrives under pressure and no matter what, knows what needs to be done.
No we wont have the best defence there, but that combo has worked for years. And there's a reason it's worked.
Both are in form, both deserve a go.
Sometimes the old guard needs to be played.


Just a few points . Stringer isnt on form he was ok for a few games this year but isnt showing great form now.


That combo has been together for years but it hasnt always been the best and worked great. When was strings and Rogs last great game for Ireland? Game now not a 15 minute spell. The reason it worked to some degree was we had no other option. Nearest man before sexton isnt even the starting 10 for Ulster.


Defence is as vital as attack and you cant start a match with both of them on the pitch. Unless your forwards were very dominant and were able to cover the 10 channel ala Wallace your going to get exposed.


In fairness to Rog his a great reader of the game and can react when he comes on the pitch but cant see him getting a start against the scots.

Thomond78
15th-February-2011, 13:54
*


Agreed, T78 - I think that's what those of us who've
called for a slightly more traditional approach from Munster
up front have been looking for. Rapid pick and goes,
driving in twos and threes around the fringes. Force the
opposition to either yield the yards or commit the bodies to
stop you.


It looks old fashioned, but when we have done it (Toulon
at home and late on against LI) we've made yards for fun.



We made major headway against the French like that as
well - once we were rolling forward, we seemed to make
ground very easily.


If they do commit to contesting it, then go wide and
there should be more space. Like anything
though, requires great precision in carrying it out. Refs are
so anti 'pick and jam' that the moment a supporting
player/rucker slips and goes to ground, he'll likely get
pinged for it straight up. I'd imagine that is especially
pointed with refs in Munster games. Also quite difficult to
get up any sort of pace from a standing start. Those
players who have that quality [Wally, Sean O'Brien] get
stuck at the bottom of the ruck immediately. I don't think
that there's anything intrinsically wrong with a one-out
option, it's just that when it's done often and badly with no
variation it's as easy as anything else predictable and badly
done to defend.

No, not quite so. Refs are fine with pick and jam, as long as
it's attacking pick and jam, rather than defensive. Pick up,
flop, recycle, repeat to retain possession - they'll ping you.
Go for a drive, and speed it up, then you'll be allowed do it.

The solution is probably to have an unofficial two-pod, or at
least L/R with the wing-forwards; Wally aiming to be one
carrier, SOB the other, get it moving sharpish between the
two of them and the cleaners.

slipper1
15th-February-2011, 13:56
good analysis lads, and I agree the
adv is with the attacking team. And we ballooned a few
box-kicks and kicked balls out on the full.



on the scrumhalf issue, I think a big part of it is
opposition have TOL figured out. There's not alot to it
really, just watch who he looks at when he's at a ruck
standing over a ball and organise your defense
accordingly. I'm still focking amazed by the 25 phases tbh,
the French backrow knew where the ball was going each
time andDusautoir was involved in almost every tackle.
Leinster done the same in September btw.



a neutral Brian 'the mouth' Moore said every
Frenchscore was Ireland's making, it was as France knew
what was about to happen each time on their ball and on
our ball.




The scrum before the loop into touch, TOL was telegraphing
where it was going. I mean, you'd have guessed it anyway,
given where Wally was, but he was looking over his
shoulder the whole time - to the extent that Servat noticed
it, and started looking over himself.


Between the slowness of it, espcially at the ruck on tryline and the 'will I pass now or look up at target managain' the TVwill eventually be firedthrough the window. It's how the Ospreys defended away aswell.

Hugonaut
15th-February-2011, 14:00
No, not quite so. Refs are fine with pick and jam, as long as

it's attacking pick and jam, rather than defensive. Pick up,

flop, recycle, repeat to retain possession - they'll ping you.

Go for a drive, and speed it up, then you'll be allowed do it.



The solution is probably to have an unofficial two-pod, or at

least L/R with the wing-forwards; Wally aiming to be one

carrier, SOB the other, get it moving sharpish between the

two of them and the cleaners.

From what I've picked up from ref's mikes over the HEC this year, for the most part they won't penalise a player who hits an opposing player before leaving his feet, while they'll always penalise a player who leaves his feet without making noticeable contact with an opposition player.

On the other hand, some refs just penalise a player who leaves his feet at any stage, i.e. whether he makes contact with an opposing player is immaterial to them.

Agree though, for the most part the very critical refereeing comes into play when a team is trying to grind out the clock.

Thomond78
15th-February-2011, 14:05
No, not quite so. Refs are fine with pick and jam, as long as
it's attacking pick and jam, rather than defensive. Pick up,
flop, recycle, repeat to retain possession - they'll ping you.
Go for a drive, and speed it up, then you'll be allowed do it.

The solution is probably to have an unofficial two-pod, or at
least L/R with the wing-forwards; Wally aiming to be one
carrier, SOB the other, get it moving sharpish between the
two of them and the cleaners.From what I've
picked up from ref's mikes over the HEC this year, for the
most part they won't penalise a player who hits an
opposing player before leaving his feet, while they'll always
penalise a player who leaves his feet without making
noticeable contact with an opposition player.On the other
hand, some refs just penalise a player who leaves his feet
at any stage, i.e. whether he makes contact with an
opposing player is immaterial to them. Agree though, for
the most part the very critical refereeing comes into play
when a team is trying to grind out the clock.

If you get someone like James Jones, you can sling your
hat at it. All you can do is plan for the best guess; and
that's that they'll let you do it if you do it fast, hard and for
territory.

Remember, you want to hit opposition guys, and
blow them back while cleaning; the further back you blow
them when cleaning, the more it opens up a big channel on
the inside shoulder of the pillar drifting out for the next
carrier picking from the base to aim into.

Combatlogo
15th-February-2011, 14:10
It was noticeable that the French back-line was lining up
incredibly deep. It meant that, once they got fast ball, they
could always straighten, fix and pass.

By contrast, the loop into touch shut down every option there,
and the repeated refusal to fix and then pass to men clear of
defenders out wide has driven me spare looking at the game
again. If the loop is used, then either the man popped to
initially has to come back in against the grain of the defence
or the man looping HAS to straighten up and fix the defence
when getting the ball back, or else it just does the work of the
defence for them in shutting down space.


Correct, it's basic stuff that the first guy steps inside. Wasn't just happening off the looped plays though.

Thomond78
15th-February-2011, 14:15
It was
noticeable that the French back-line was lining up incredibly
deep. It meant that, once they got fast ball, they could
always straighten, fix and pass. By contrast, the loop into
touch shut down every option there, and the repeated
refusal to fix and then pass to men clear of defenders out
wide has driven me spare looking at the game again. If the
loop is used, then either the man popped to initially has to
come back in against the grain of the defence or the man
looping HAS to straighten up and fix the defence when
getting the ball back, or else it just does the work of the
defence for them in shutting down space.


Correct, it's basic stuff that the first guy steps inside.
Wasn't just happening off the looped plays
though.

I would also add, from a forward's perspective, that if the
dumbass skinny runts are going to screw up and get
tackled, then at least if they step inside they're not running
further away from the cavalry coming across to
rescue their over-gelled asses once more...

CajunCannon
15th-February-2011, 14:16
What about TOL at 12? The guy is great athlete, just not a
great SH. I think it'd be interesting to see. It'd be a way to
keep him and his skill set on the pitch while trying to figure
out the 9/10 situation.

Mcork
15th-February-2011, 14:48
good analysis lads, and I agree the adv is with the attacking team. And we ballooned a few box-kicks and kicked balls out on the full.


on the scrumhalf issue, I think a big part of it is opposition have TOL figured out. There's not alot to it really, just watch who he looks at when he's at a ruck standing over a ball and organise your defense accordingly. I'm still focking amazed by the 25 phases tbh, the French backrow knew where the ball was going each time andDusautoir was involved in almost every tackle. Leinster done the same in September btw.


a neutral Brian 'the mouth' Moore said every Frenchscore was Ireland's making, it was as France knew what was about to happen each time on their ball and on our ball.

Correct - where we are going is far too easy to predict and plan for. I'd disagree that it's all TO'L's fault although his distribution gives those defenders that extra second they need to shut down the space.

I really think we need to vary our game far far more than we are doing presently. I know the management are trusting the players to make the right decisions but we lack an on field tactician since Foley has gone. BO'D and PO'C are great leaders by example but not great readers of what the team should be doing.

Look at the world reference: NZ - Dan Carter is not afraid to put boot to ball when required. That French game &amp; the SA game in the A.I's are two game that got away because we were too rigid in sticking to that running game. When the defenders push up, stick that ball in behind them - create that doubt in opponents about what you'll do. Sexton can do it but for whatever reason is either on instructions or not reading the game properly

Mcork
15th-February-2011, 15:02
It was noticeable that the French back-line was lining up
incredibly deep. It meant that, once they got fast ball, they
could always straighten, fix and pass.

By contrast, the loop into touch shut down every option there,
and the repeated refusal to fix and then pass to men clear of
defenders out wide has driven me spare looking at the game
again. If the loop is used, then either the man popped to
initially has to come back in against the grain of the defence
or the man looping HAS to straighten up and fix the defence
when getting the ball back, or else it just does the work of the
defence for them in shutting down space.


Correct, it's basic stuff that the first guy steps inside. Wasn't just happening off the looped plays though.

Gaffney or the players not executing properly?

slipper1
15th-February-2011, 15:21
good analysis lads, and I agree the adv is with the attacking team. And we ballooned a few box-kicks and kicked balls out on the full.


on the scrumhalf issue, I think a big part of it is opposition have TOL figured out. There's not alot to it really, just watch who he looks at when he's at a ruck standing over a ball and organise your defense accordingly. I'm still focking amazed by the 25 phases tbh, the French backrow knew where the ball was going each time andDusautoir was involved in almost every tackle. Leinster done the same in September btw.


a neutral Brian 'the mouth' Moore said every Frenchscore was Ireland's making, it was as France knew what was about to happen each time on their ball and on our ball.




Correct - where we are going is far too easy to predict and plan for. I'd disagree that it's all TO'L's fault although his distribution gives those defenders that extra second they need to shut down the space.

I really think we need to vary our game far far more than we are doing presently. I know the management are trusting the players to make the right decisions but we lack an on field tactician since Foley has gone. BO'D and PO'C are great leaders by example but not great readers of what the team should be doing.

Look at the world reference: NZ - Dan Carter is not afraid to put boot to ball when required. That French game &amp; the SA game in the A.I's are two game that got away because we were too rigid in sticking to that running game. When the defenders push up, stick that ball in behind them - create that doubt in opponents about what you'll do. Sexton can do it but for whatever reason is either on instructions or not reading the game properly



Carter only kicks when AB's don't have go forward ball, usually in their own half to gain territory. Otherwise he'll take the ball and run and see what's on and play what's in front of him. It's something TOL dosen't do, and running like a lunatic at their defense won't make up for it. Ben Youngs can take the ball to the opposition defensive linepretty well, then it could be a pop pass, reverse pass, grubber - usually whatever he picks is a good call.

Point
15th-February-2011, 18:49
Just a few points . Stringer isnt on form he was ok for a few games this year but isnt showing great form now.


That combo has been together for years but it hasnt always been the best and worked great. When was strings and Rogs last great game for Ireland? Game now not a 15 minute spell. The reason it worked to some degree was we had no other option. Nearest man before sexton isnt even the starting 10 for Ulster.


Defence is as vital as attack and you cant start a match with both of them on the pitch. Unless your forwards were very dominant and were able to cover the 10 channel ala Wallace your going to get exposed.


In fairness to Rog his a great reader of the game and can react when he comes on the pitch but cant see him getting a start against the scots.





Sorry now, but what sort off**kin drugs are you on ???


The last game Stringer played in was on the 22nd January when Stringer came on against Oirishfor a turgid O'Leary and we scored 3 tries in 10 minutes,to win the game.


Hayzus wept smileys/sad.gif

Consumer
15th-February-2011, 22:54
What do you all think o McFadden at outhalf?

I mean he's a kicker and if he's a centre then he can pass and create and he's incredibly fast. Might he be our very own Dan Carter? Or is that Tony Buckley style fitting a square peg in a round hole thinking on my part?

Combatlogo
15th-February-2011, 23:52
Sexton at 12?


TOL at 12/13 or 15?


Now McFadden at 10...Jebus give me strength....then again, Hook suggested BOD should start playing 7.smileys/lol.gif

Consumer
16th-February-2011, 00:20
Sexton at 12?


TOL at 12/13 or 15?


Now McFadden at 10...Jebus give me strength....then again, Hook suggested BOD should start playing 7.smileys/lol.gif

Has TOL never played wing?

Downsouthdukin
16th-February-2011, 02:01
Sexton at 12?


TOL at 12/13 or 15?


Now McFadden at 10...Jebus give me strength....then again,
Hook suggested BOD should start playing 7.smileys/lol.gif
Has TOL never played wing?

he has

Downsouthdukin
16th-February-2011, 02:02
Just a few points .</font>
Stringer isnt on form he was ok
for a few games this year but isnt showing great form now.
</font>


That combo has been together for
years but it hasnt always been the best and worked great.
When was strings and Rogs last great game for Ireland?
Game now not a 15 minute spell. The reason it worked to
some degree was we had no other option. Nearest man
before sexton isnt even the starting 10 for Ulster.</font>



Defence is as vital as attack and you
cant start a match with both of them on the pitch. Unless
your forwards were very dominant and were able to cover
the 10 channel ala Wallace your going to get exposed.
</font>


In fairness to Rog his a great reader
of the game and can react when he comes on the pitch but
cant see him getting a start against the scots. </font>






Sorry now, but what sort of*f**kin drugs are you on ???



The last game Stringer played in was on the 22nd
January when Stringer came on against Oirish*for a turgid
O'Leary and we scored 3 tries in 10 minutes,*to win the
game.*


Hayzus wept smileys/sad.gif


so he played 10minutes in a month and hes on form? yikes

Combatlogo
16th-February-2011, 02:19
Sexton at 12?


TOL at 12/13 or 15?


Now McFadden at 10...Jebus give me strength....then again, Hook suggested BOD should start playing 7.smileys/lol.gif




Has TOL never played wing?



Yes, he has. And Wallace and Leamy have played in the three quarters. Doesn't mean they should be playing there for Ireland.

Consumer
16th-February-2011, 11:44
Sexton at 12?


TOL at 12/13 or 15?


Now McFadden at 10...Jebus give me strength....then again, Hook suggested BOD should start playing 7.smileys/lol.gif




Has TOL never played wing?



Yes, he has. And Wallace and Leamy have played in the three quarters. Doesn't mean they should be playing there for Ireland.

If he scored that try he scored against France as a winger I'd be happy enough.

Benji
16th-February-2011, 13:19
Just a few points . Stringer isnt on form he was ok for a few games this year but isnt showing great form now.


That combo has been together for years but it hasnt always been the best and worked great. When was strings and Rogs last great game for Ireland? Game now not a 15 minute spell. The reason it worked to some degree was we had no other option. Nearest man before sexton isnt even the starting 10 for Ulster.


Defence is as vital as attack and you cant start a match with both of them on the pitch. Unless your forwards were very dominant and were able to cover the 10 channel ala Wallace your going to get exposed.


In fairness to Rog his a great reader of the game and can react when he comes on the pitch but cant see him getting a start against the scots.





Sorry now, but what sort off**kin drugs are you on ???


The last game Stringer played in was on the 22nd January when Stringer came on against Oirishfor a turgid O'Leary and we scored 3 tries in 10 minutes,to win the game.


Hayzus wept smileys/sad.gif


Point as I said in my post imho he hasnt been in form. Your not using the 15 minutes against london Irish as your proof his in form . Players need to perform longer that that to establish form. He was crap aginst Ulster and just hasnt played enough.


A fit and on form stringer I'd play if he was availiable. But wouldnt put Rog and him starting a game. Its too much of a risk for 80 mins.

99_oK?
16th-February-2011, 13:50
Lads some of yez must be on the hard stuff form what's been posted here......


Getting back to the nub of the problem:


OK, everyone recognises we have a problem at SH and that ToL's playing is the pits at the present.


So what options: Boss is the #1 SH at Leinster and playing well. Stringer has takenback the SH shirt at Munster and playing excellent stuff too (ToL has had his starts tooand basically confirmed his Irish form - i.e. way off form). Reddan is the other option at Leinster and his form is a bit mixed, but hey he's better than Tomas at present. Obviously I'm not considering other possibilities (Murphy, etc).


So why are we continuing with a SH whose form is way off? Is there an agenda? Style doesn't come into it (Boss does everything that ToL can do, but now he's doing it way better).


So what's going on folks....... ?

NotreDameRFC
16th-February-2011, 18:31
Lads some of yez must be on the hard stuff form what's been posted here......


Getting back to the nub of the problem:


OK, everyone recognises we have a problem at SH and that ToL's playing is the pits at the present.


So what options: Boss is the #1 SH at Leinster and playing well. Stringer has takenback the SH shirt at Munster and playing excellent stuff too (ToL has had his starts tooand basically confirmed his Irish form - i.e. way off form). Reddan is the other option at Leinster and his form is a bit mixed, but hey he's better than Tomas at present. Obviously I'm not considering other possibilities (Murphy, etc).


So why are we continuing with a SH whose form is way off? Is there an agenda? Style doesn't come into it (Boss does everything that ToL can do, but now he's doing it way better).


So what's going on folks....... ?








99 your dead right...when your putting the Irish scrum halves in order of current form IMO. ONly major differnece is that Boss tries to make more half breaks around the side of the ruck than TOL does.....but if he does it at the right time ie the opposition half ( and get turned over) the damage is limited. TOL is passing 95% of the time , very little half breaks and we wont mention his kicking from hand,, plus from what i see of Leinster this year he seems to have a good r'ship with O Brien for popping up passes to him for 2nd phase attack....


The agrument whether ROG or JS starts is a mute point imo...JS has to start in the style Deccie is playing and ROG is doing brilliantly in his cameo role. Given TOL form i dont think we would have scored 3 tries with a TOL /ROG pairing...


Also dont sure who is was,,, too lazy to read back...!! but Sexton didnt butcher that chance , France were well offside and he had to turn back inside and in fairness kept the move alive... to say TOL "rescued the situation" gives ammunition to other fans who are on here.