PDA

View Full Version : Limerick’s forwards?



Tobyglen
9th-September-2010, 11:24
So Limerick has provided the backbone of the Munster pack for years now but in the last few years the conveyor belt has almost come to a complete halt. Very worrying times ahead for Munster as I don't think Cork/Tipp will produce enough quality forwards to keep us competitve at the latter stages of the HEC. (Bar Flannery) It's almost 10 years since Limerick brought a new starting HEC forward onto the team, thats unthinkable when you see what happened in the previous years. No props/second rows/back rows have appeared in a while now. The thing is all the promising young players coming through now are from Cork/Tipp, there is no sign of the problem going away.

Tipp & Cork are churning their usual numbers but in the height of the biggest rugby boom in the country Limerick has gone ususually quiet. Whats the reason for this? Hopefully it's just a bad batch but is it an underage problem? I don't know but would be interested in posters views on this. Don't turn it into a limerick/cork s**tfest either please.

JoeyFantastic
9th-September-2010, 11:34
A good place to start would probably be to look through the
current u20's, u19's and schools and youths squads and
see how the figures stack up. You should also look at
demographic changes in Limerick city over the last two
decades, more people have moved to the suburbs and
away from the catchment area of some clubs.

Not to be controversial, but it's been suggested on here
that UL/Boh's have a too close relationship with the
Academy too.

It's also arguable that since Castletroy came through, the
talent is spread too thinly around the various schools in
Limerick, far easier to get noticed as a good forward when
the rest of the team is pretty good too. That being said,
iirc, very few of the forwards from the Senior Cup winning
sides of Munchins or Castletroy got into the Academy or
sub-Academy?

busbi
9th-September-2010, 11:42
As i was saying in the other thread, in the last 15 years it was more of a
Shannon conveyor belt than a Limerick one. Munster plc. is more and
more responsible for bringing players through themselves though so the
roles of the clubs is lessening, and where the forwards themselves come
from probably matters much less too.

Butler looks the real deal, as do a few of the Corks boy in POM,
O'Callaghan and O'Hara.

Tobyglen
9th-September-2010, 11:47
A good place to start would probably be to look through the

current u20's, u19's and schools and youths squads</span> and

see how the figures stack up. You should also look at

demographic changes in Limerick city over the last two

decades, more people have moved to the suburbs and

away from the catchment area of some clubs.



Not to be controversial, but it's been suggested on here

that UL/Boh's have a too close relationship with the

Academy too.



It's also arguable that since Castletroy came through, the

talent is spread too thinly around the various schools in

Limerick, far easier to get noticed as a good forward when

the rest of the team is pretty good too. That being said,

iirc, very few of the forwards from the Senior Cup winning

sides of Munchins or Castletroy got into the Academy or

sub-Academy?
Is there many promising youngsters in those teams? The u-20s guys that looked good were Butler, O'Callaghan in the forwards and Zebo in the backs. I know O'Hara got injured but he seems very slight to me, hows he getting on these days? I know a certain pplayer on the academy and there's not a hope in hell he will make it- came from the UL-Bohs. Too old at this stage aswell.

dropkick
9th-September-2010, 11:55
Maybe the talent isn't being spotted anymore. They might be
putting all their eggs in the academy basket?

tickettout
9th-September-2010, 11:58
Take Donnacha Ryan for an example, Schooled in St Munchins College and plays rugby for Shannon rfc.


Cronin schooled in Ard Scoil and played rugby played for Shannon


Varley schooled in St Munchins College and plays for Garryowen


Has Limerick rugby not brought these guys through?

JoeyFantastic
9th-September-2010, 12:06
A good place to start would
probably be to look through the
&lt;span style="font-weight: bold;"&gt;current u20's, u19's and
schools and youths squads&lt;/span&gt; and
see how the figures stack up. You should also look at
demographic changes in Limerick city over the last two
decades, more people have moved to the suburbs and
away from the catchment area of some clubs.

Not to be controversial, but it's been suggested on here
that UL/Boh's have a too close relationship with the
Academy too.

It's also arguable that since Castletroy came through, the
talent is spread too thinly around the various schools in
Limerick, far easier to get noticed as a good forward when
the rest of the team is pretty good too. That being said,
iirc, very few of the forwards from the Senior Cup winning
sides of Munchins or Castletroy got into the Academy or
sub-Academy?Is there many promising
youngsters in those teams? The u-20s guys that looked
good were Butler, O'Callaghan in the forwards and Zebo in
the backs. I know O'Hara got injured but he seems very
slight to me, hows he getting on these days? I know a
certain pplayer on the academy and there's not a hope in
hell he will make it- came from the UL-Bohs. Too old at this
stage aswell.

I've no idea, why don't you go through the team sheets for
comparison's sake to see where the players are coming
from? I went through the Academy and sub-Academy
profiles on the other thread and there was more Limerick
players in each.

Munster rugby should start to see the first generation of the
6 and 7 year olds who took up rugby after 2000 coming
through around now in the Junior and Senior cup teams.

Canterbury
9th-September-2010, 12:20
Take Donnacha Ryan for an example, Schooled in St Munchins College and plays rugby for Shannon rfc.


Cronin schooled in Ard Scoil and played rugby played for Shannon


Varley schooled in St Munchins College and plays for Garryowen


Has Limerick rugby not brought these guys through?





Donnacha Ryan started with Nenagh and Cronin with Richmond.

Jorm
9th-September-2010, 12:24
Take Donnacha Ryan for an example, Schooled in St Munchins College and plays rugby for Shannon rfc.





Donnacha Ryan played very little for Munchins (gave up before senior cup and played with Nenagh instead)and only joined Shannon after establishing himself witha Munster full time contract. He restarted his rugby career (after giving up altoegther after moving to cork for college) with sundays Well and after impressing at Senior level with them joined UCC as part of their academy and the rest is history. He spent over 4 years playing rugby in cork from 18-22 before making his mark for munster, Shannon merely paid for a player after another club did the hard work in developing them.

Lightblue
9th-September-2010, 12:42
Take Donnacha Ryan for an example, Schooled in St Munchins College and plays rugby for Shannon rfc.





Donnacha Ryan played very little for Munchins (gave up before senior cup and played with Nenagh instead)and only joined Shannon after establishing himself witha Munster full time contract. He restarted his rugby career (after giving up altoegther after moving to cork for college) with sundays Well and after impressing at Senior level with them joined UCC as part of their academy and the rest is history. He spent over 4 years playing rugby in cork from 18-22 before making his mark for munster, Shannon merely paid for a player after another club did the hard work in developing them.





Over to you Busbi.

Peacock
9th-September-2010, 12:43
Take Donnacha Ryan for an example, Schooled in St Munchins College and plays rugby for Shannon rfc.





Donnacha Ryan played very little for Munchins (gave up before senior cup and played with Nenagh instead)and only joined Shannon after establishing himself witha Munster full time contract. He restarted his rugby career (after giving up altoegther after moving to cork for college) with sundays Well and after impressing at Senior level with them joined UCC as part of their academy and the rest is history. He spent over 4 years playing rugby in cork from 18-22 before making his mark for munster, Shannon merely paid for a player after another club did the hard work in developing them.





Rubbish, Donnacha Ryan was playing for Shannon while he was working with a accountancy firm here in Limerick.

LLCOOLJ14
9th-September-2010, 12:44
Donnacha Ryan played very little for Munchins (gave up before senior cup and played with Nenagh instead)and only joined Shannon after establishing himself witha Munster full time contract. He restarted his rugby career (after giving up altoegther after moving to cork for college) with sundays Well and after impressing at Senior level with them joined UCC as part of their academy and the rest is history. He spent over 4 years playing rugby in cork from 18-22 before making his mark for munster, Shannon merely paid for a player after another club did the hard work in developing them.


Can you bottle up that Cork bitterness and send it to the firsts please?smileys/lol.gif

Lightblue
9th-September-2010, 12:48
Limerick youths rugby is dminated by clubs rather than schools. The old school tie still carries weight in Irish rugby. The (ineffective) academies are stuffed full of schools playerswho never seem to play any rugbyyet pose around in Munster training gear as if they were Lions. Give me 15 guys with heart and passionover any bunch of school boy strutters. If Munster rugby lost its class structure the game would be better for it.

JoeyFantastic
9th-September-2010, 13:21
Limerick youths rugby is dminated by clubs rather than
schools.*

The old school tie still carries weight in Irish rugby.*

The (ineffective) academies are stuffed full of schools
players*who never seem to play any rugby*yet pose
around in Munster training gear as if they were Lions.*

If Munster rugby lost its class structure the game would be
better for it.

Just breaking you post down and removing the bit which
implies schools players lack passion, it seems you think
club players are being overlooked in favour of schools
players? Which players do you think shouldn't be with
Munster ahead of club players?

It's true our Academy has been very poor at bringing
players through, and the players who do come through
aren't exactly complete players (scrumhalves who can't
pass, props who can't scrummage). What should be done
with the Academy? Disband it, reform it?

What do you mean class structure?

HurlerOnDeDitch
9th-September-2010, 13:27
(Bar Flannery) It's almost 10 years since Limerick brought a new starting HEC forward onto the team,



I hate to point out the obvious, but with the age profile of our pack, it is almost ten years since ANYBODY broke into into the starting HEC team!! smileys/razz.gif


Hayes, Horan, Flannery, Varley, Buckley, O'Connell, Wallace, Quinlan all learned their rugby in Limerick.


I take your point about the quality of players in the pipeline at the moment but I suppose it is hard to produce a Golden Generation every year. smileys/wink.gif

Peacock
9th-September-2010, 13:42
Limerick youths rugby is dminated by clubs rather than
schools.

The old school tie still carries weight in Irish rugby.

The (ineffective) academies are stuffed full of schools
playerswho never seem to play any rugbyyet pose
around in Munster training gear as if they were Lions.

If Munster rugby lost its class structure the game would be
better for it.

Just breaking you post down and removing the bit which
implies schools players lack passion, it seems you think
club players are being overlooked in favour of schools
players? Which players do you think shouldn't be with
Munster ahead of club players?

It's true our Academy has been very poor at bringing
players through, and the players who do come through
aren't exactly complete players (scrumhalves who can't
pass, props who can't scrummage). What should be done
with the Academy? Disband it, reform it?

What do you mean class structure?


The club player who has loyalty and passion to his club is unfortunately a dying breed,and this factimho has diminished the game here in Munster,we no longer seem to have the same quality of player ie Wally,O Gara,Quinlan etc..coming through these guys played AIL &amp; Munster cup, tough hard games.Im not saying the quality was better because it wasnt but the competitive aspect was huge and that made them better players.

Tobyglen
9th-September-2010, 13:45
(Bar Flannery) It's almost 10 years since Limerick brought a new starting HEC forward onto the team,



I hate to point out the obvious, but with the age profile of our pack, it is almost ten years since ANYBODY broke into into the starting HEC team!! smileys/razz.gif


Hayes, Horan, Flannery, Varley, Buckley, O'Connell, Wallace, Quinlan all learned their rugby in Limerick.


I take your point about the quality of players in the pipeline at the moment but I suppose it is hard to produce a Golden Generation every year. smileys/wink.gif
Donnacha Ryan, Tony Buckley have broken through, Peter O'Mahony, Paddy Butler &amp; Tommy O'Donnell are next generation. We need to supplement these guys with Limerick players, at the moment there is nothing. When you consider Limerick is the stronghold of Munster rugby it's alarming. The stats are there, in the team starting against Edinburgh tomorrow there is no Limerick born player on the team. Of course Shannon, Cork Con etc will scoop up the best players from smaller clubs from outside counties but what I can't understand is where are the Limerick players? Is it a schools problem?
Halvey, Wally, Claw brothers, Fla, POC, Hayes all great players but now there is nothing.

JoeyFantastic
9th-September-2010, 13:54
* (Bar
Flannery) It's almost 10 years since Limerick brought a
new starting HEC forward onto the team,


I hate to point out the obvious, but with the age profile
of our pack, it is almost ten years since ANYBODY broke
into into the starting HEC team!! smileys/razz.gif


Hayes, Horan, Flannery, Varley, Buckley, O'Connell,
Wallace, Quinlan all learned their rugby in Limerick.


I take your point about the quality of players in the
pipeline at the moment but I suppose it is hard to produce
a Golden Generation every year. smileys/wink.gifDonnacha
Ryan, Tony Buckley have broken through, Peter O'Mahony,
Paddy Butler & Tommy O'Donnell are next generation. We
need to supplement these guys with Limerick players, at
the moment there is nothing. When you consider Limerick
is the stronghold of Munster rugby it's alarming. The stats
are there, in the team starting against Edinburgh tomorrow
there is no Limerick born player on the team. Of course
Shannon, Cork Con etc will scoop up the best players from
smaller clubs from outside counties but what I can't
understand is where are the Limerick players? Is it a
schools problem?Halvey, Wally, Claw brothers, Fla, POC,
Hayes all great players but now there is nothing.

It depends what you mean by nothing, a lot of our best
players are still from Limerick, Flannery, POC, Earls etc,
they just aren't playing tomorrow.

You're also making the mistake of lumping players who
arrived in different eras as though they arrived together.
POC and Fla are a good bit younger than Halvey and Claw
for example.

Why not go through the underage teams to see if supply
has restarted?

mtcmolloy
9th-September-2010, 13:54
could you say that crescent was the former strongest limk school?
When was the last decent player to come from there? Wally? The old jesuit rugby ethos is a sad loss.


I wonder have playing numbers in general increased countrywide and in limerick since tag rugby got invented...

JoeyFantastic
9th-September-2010, 14:05
could you say that crescent was
the former strongest limk school? When was the last decent
player to come from there? Wally? The old jesuit rugby
ethos is a sad loss.


I wonder have playing numbers in general increased
countrywide and in limerick since tag rugby got invented...


I don't think the senior cup means all that much in the long
run, it's been dominated by Cork and yet at senior club
level only Con have a record that compares to the top
Limerick clubs. The fascination with the Senior Cup is
something we've imported from Leinster and Ulster for no
obvious reason.

LLCOOLJ14
9th-September-2010, 14:11
could you say that crescent was the former strongest limk school?
When was the last decent player to come from there? Wally? The old jesuit rugby ethos is a sad loss.


I wonder have playing numbers in general increased countrywide and in limerick since tag rugby got invented...





Reddan came later, and just behind him E Mcgovern who played for Munster for a while....

HurlerOnDeDitch
9th-September-2010, 14:21
could you say that crescent was the former strongest limk school?
When was the last decent player to come from there? Wally? The old jesuit rugby ethos is a sad loss.


I wonder have playing numbers in general increased countrywide and in limerick since tag rugby got invented...





Eion Reddan captained the Crescent team in his day.


It has been a while since Crescent produced a Munster player, but that is a cyclical thing. The school tends to produce a top class Senior Cup team every 10 years or so, with a few of the team making an impact at interpro level and beyond.


From memory Len Dineen amd Kelvin Leahy about 30 years ago, Paul Walace, Alan Reddan andShane Leahy among others 20 years ago, David Wallace and Eoin Reddan inrecent years.


It is sad thay there are so few Jesuits still involved and their ethos was a huge part of producing strong teams.


Still,Crescent can boast 2 current members of the Ireland senior squad, not bad really! smileys/biggrin.gif

HurlerOnDeDitch
9th-September-2010, 14:23
could you say that crescent was the former strongest limk school?
When was the last decent player to come from there? Wally? The old jesuit rugby ethos is a sad loss.


I wonder have playing numbers in general increased countrywide and in limerick since tag rugby got invented...





Reddan came later, and just behind him E Mcgovern who played for Munster for a while....





You beat me to it!

Lightblue
9th-September-2010, 14:25
Limerick youths rugby is dminated by clubs rather than
schools.

The old school tie still carries weight in Irish rugby.

The (ineffective) academies are stuffed full of schools
playerswho never seem to play any rugbyyet pose
around in Munster training gear as if they were Lions.

If Munster rugby lost its class structure the game would be
better for it.

Just breaking you post down and removing the bit which
implies schools players lack passion, it seems you think
club players are being overlooked in favour of schools
players? Which players do you think shouldn't be with
Munster ahead of club players? Joey, I don't have name or numbers so throw out th epoint if you wish, but I bet that the majority of Academy players are from rugby shcools. This means that a hole bunch of kids will never get a chance. Claw never played schools cup, Derek Tobin (no.9 v Aus) went to St Endas. In todays set up they woldn't feature.

It's true our Academy has been very poor at bringing
players through, and the players who do come through
aren't exactly complete players (scrumhalves who can't
pass, props who can't scrummage). What should be done
with the Academy? Disband it, reform it? Get thekids playing rugby. Either loan themto Div 1a teams or enter their own team in he AIL. They will learn far more playing ttan they will lifting weights and drinking poweraid.

What do you mean class structure? This is not anti Cork. Munster rugby is controlled by Cork. It managers by and largeare products of PBC, CBC and Cork Con, hardly centres of Marxism. Many years ago at a trial match, the Cork guy in charge was taking a head count. One Limerick guy, who shall remain nameless, was missing. "Where is so and so?" "He's working" Face in horror "On a Saturday?" If you haven't witnessed the political machine that is Con, you ain't lived.

HurlerOnDeDitch
9th-September-2010, 14:33
Donnacha Ryan, Tony Buckley have broken through, Peter O'Mahony, Paddy Butler &amp; Tommy O'Donnell are next generation. We need to supplement these guys with Limerick players, at the moment there is nothing. When you consider Limerick is the stronghold of Munster rugby it's alarming. The stats are there, in the team starting against Edinburgh tomorrow there is no Limerick born player on the team. Of course Shannon, Cork Con etc will scoop up the best players from smaller clubs from outside counties but what I can't understand is where are the Limerick players? Is it a schools problem?
Halvey, Wally, Claw brothers, Fla, POC, Hayes all great players but now there is nothing.



I wouldn't get too hung up on where playeres are born. Limerick clubs have always soaked up players from Clare, Tipperary and Kerry.


Guys like Foley and Horan are Clare men but all their schooling and rugby has been in Limerick.


The switch to the academy structure has changed the perception a bit because players are going straight from schools into the Munster setup rather than joining senior clubs first.

mtcmolloy
9th-September-2010, 14:35
munster dream team:
Hayes - no school
woodie/fla - munchins
horan/claw - munchins/cresc
poc - Ard scoil
doc - pbc
quinlan - no school
leamy - Rockwell
wally - Cresc


foley - munchins
gallimh - no school


Just saying that there's no denying the schools influence of the class of 99 - '09..
And should be mentioned that munchins deserves a pat on the back for this bunch. Maybe we can learn something from munchins? cough . . seriously, you have to hand it to them, whatever they are doing. Earls latterly.. what a talent to come from a school not so renowned for it's back play.

JoeyFantastic
9th-September-2010, 14:36
Joey, I don't have name or numbers so
throw out th epoint if you wish, but I bet that the majority
of Academy players are from rugby shcools.* This means
that a hole bunch of kids will never get a chance.* Claw
never played schools cup, Derek Tobin (no.9 v Aus) went
to St Endas.* In todays set up they woldn't
feature.*</font>

Get thekids playing rugby.* Either loan
themto Div 1a teams or enter their own team in he AIL.*
They will learn far more playing ttan they will lifting weights
and drinking poweraid.</font>



A good few of recent development contracts and current
Academy players have come from youths, ie club rugby
not schools rugby, or some have ended up playing schools
rugby after being spotted in youths, D. Foley, D. Barnes, D.
O'Callaghan (v2.0), Hanrahan, Henry, O'Dea, Sheridan.
Afaik, all those players started out (at least) outside the
schools system. I'm not sure how to class the two Sligo
players (Henry and Sheridan) but neither seem to have
played for the Connacht schools side?

In addition, Cotter, Cusack and Scanlon got contracts from
their AIL performances.

Did Rockwell get Grace from the youths system?

Most of the players in the Academy are with AIL clubs,
most infact, with top AIL clubs, either playing 1a or 1b and
you probably see more of them than most due to being a
Garryowen regular.

Piquet
9th-September-2010, 14:40
munster dream team:
Hayes - no school
woodie/fla - munchins
horan/claw - munchins/cresc
poc - Ard scoil
doc - pbc christians' actually
quinlan - no school
leamy - Rockwell
wally - Cresc


foley - munchins
gallimh - no school


Just saying that there's no denying the schools influence of the class of 99 - '09..
And should be mentioned that munchins deserves a pat on the back for this bunch. Maybe we can learn something from munchins? cough . . seriously, you have to hand it to them, whatever they are doing. Earls latterly.. what a talent to come from a school not so renowned for it's back play.

JoeyFantastic
9th-September-2010, 14:42
munster dream team: Hayes - no schoolwoodie/fla -
munchinshoran/claw - munchins/crescpoc - Ard scoildoc -
pbc* christians' actually</font>quinlan -
no schoolleamy - Rockwellwally - Cresc


foley - munchinsgallimh - no school


Just saying that there's no denying the schools influence
of the class of 99 - '09.. And should be mentioned that
munchins deserves a pat on the back for this bunch. Maybe
we can learn something from munchins? cough . .
seriously, you have to hand it to them, whatever they are
doing. Earls latterly.. what a talent to come from a school
not so renowned for it's back play.

Could be wrong but didn't DOC only play senior cup with
CBC after being poached from Bishopstown or somewhere?

JoeyFantastic
9th-September-2010, 14:43
And should be mentioned that
munchins
deserves a pat on the back for this bunch. Maybe we can
learn something from munchins? cough . . seriously, you
have
to hand it to them, whatever they are doing. Earls latterly..
what a talent to come from a school not so renowned for
it's
back play.

Earls only joined Munchins after Junior Cert (well he was
there
for a few weeks as a first year before transferring to
Nessans).

Actually, Munchins also picked up Donncha Ryan and Danny
Barnes from youths, afaik.

Lightblue
9th-September-2010, 14:43
Claw never played schools senior cup, I would wager he left before the leaving.

mtcmolloy
9th-September-2010, 14:46
ya fair enough.. maybe i meant to pose the question: has something changed at munchins?


maybe the question on this thread should be:


who was the last decent forward to come from munchins and why has the talent dried up?

Jorm
9th-September-2010, 14:49
Limerick youths rugby is dminated by clubs rather than
schools.

The old school tie still carries weight in Irish rugby.

The (ineffective) academies are stuffed full of schools
playerswho never seem to play any rugbyyet pose
around in Munster training gear as if they were Lions.

If Munster rugby lost its class structure the game would be
better for it.

Just breaking you post down and removing the bit which
implies schools players lack passion, it seems you think
club players are being overlooked in favour of schools
players? Which players do you think shouldn't be with
Munster ahead of club players? Joey, I don't have name or numbers so throw out th epoint if you wish, but I bet that the majority of Academy players are from rugby shcools. This means that a hole bunch of kids will never get a chance. Claw never played schools cup, Derek Tobin (no.9 v Aus) went to St Endas. In todays set up they woldn't feature.

It's true our Academy has been very poor at bringing
players through, and the players who do come through
aren't exactly complete players (scrumhalves who can't
pass, props who can't scrummage). What should be done
with the Academy? Disband it, reform it? Get thekids playing rugby. Either loan themto Div 1a teams or enter their own team in he AIL. They will learn far more playing ttan they will lifting weights and drinking poweraid.

What do you mean class structure? This is not anti Cork. Munster rugby is controlled by Cork. It managers by and largeare products of PBC, CBC and Cork Con, hardly centres of Marxism. Many years ago at a trial match, the Cork guy in charge was taking a head count. One Limerick guy, who shall remain nameless, was missing. "Where is so and so?" "He's working" Face in horror "On a Saturday?" If you haven't witnessed the political machine that is Con, you ain't lived.


Are you crazy?!


Firstly, schools players get into the academy mostly on the back of rugby played after they have finishedschool around the 18/19 mark. Schools rugby is a higher standard than club and thats coming from a former clubs player myself the whole way through the system.


Secondly, we have the A-team for competitive games for the academy, its a higher standard than AIL - 1 and you are playing against players in a similar environment i.e. professional full time players.


The last rant about the hierarchy of munster is just that a rant. Mindless. Somebody please think of the children.

Lightblue
9th-September-2010, 14:51
ya fair enough.. maybe i meant to pose the question: has something changed at munchins?


maybe the question on this thread should be:


who was the last decent forward to come from munchins and why has the talent dried up?





Foley, Wood, Varley


Lack of borders, thus time spent training. Cost, my nephew was asked for €600 odd to play senior cup this year. Strangely he opted out.

sepico
9th-September-2010, 14:56
ya fair enough.. maybe i meant to pose the question: has something changed at munchins?


maybe the question on this thread should be:


who was the last decent forward to come from munchins and why has the talent dried up?





the answer to that is very simple, few years ago the school decided to stop taking boarders and it is now exclusively a day-boy school, with the loss of the country folk with it the grunt of forward power, i went as a day boy and played myself and from 1st year to senior the majority of our packs were big hardy lumps from the county, its a shame but they will struggle i think going forward. its taking in a lot of city kids now and getting rough ive been told so hopefully they can convert that agression to the rugby field and spit out a few more in the mould of earls

paki
9th-September-2010, 14:57
ya fair enough.. maybe i meant to pose the question: has
something changed at munchins?


maybe the question on this thread should be:


who was the last decent forward to come from munchins
and why has the talent dried up?





Foley, Wood, Varley


Lack of borders, thus time spent training.* Cost, my
nephew was asked for €600 odd to play senior cup this year.*
Strangely he opted out.
Is that cost of tuition or a fee to play rugby?

Lightblue
9th-September-2010, 15:11
To be part of the squad, no places guaranteed.

Lightblue
9th-September-2010, 15:12
Limerick youths rugby is dminated by clubs rather than
schools.

The old school tie still carries weight in Irish rugby.

The (ineffective) academies are stuffed full of schools
playerswho never seem to play any rugbyyet pose
around in Munster training gear as if they were Lions.

If Munster rugby lost its class structure the game would be
better for it.

Just breaking you post down and removing the bit which
implies schools players lack passion, it seems you think
club players are being overlooked in favour of schools
players? Which players do you think shouldn't be with
Munster ahead of club players? Joey, I don't have name or numbers so throw out th epoint if you wish, but I bet that the majority of Academy players are from rugby shcools. This means that a hole bunch of kids will never get a chance. Claw never played schools cup, Derek Tobin (no.9 v Aus) went to St Endas. In todays set up they woldn't feature.

It's true our Academy has been very poor at bringing
players through, and the players who do come through
aren't exactly complete players (scrumhalves who can't
pass, props who can't scrummage). What should be done
with the Academy? Disband it, reform it? Get thekids playing rugby. Either loan themto Div 1a teams or enter their own team in he AIL. They will learn far more playing ttan they will lifting weights and drinking poweraid.

What do you mean class structure? This is not anti Cork. Munster rugby is controlled by Cork. It managers by and largeare products of PBC, CBC and Cork Con, hardly centres of Marxism. Many years ago at a trial match, the Cork guy in charge was taking a head count. One Limerick guy, who shall remain nameless, was missing. "Where is so and so?" "He's working" Face in horror "On a Saturday?" If you haven't witnessed the political machine that is Con, you ain't lived.


Are you crazy?!


Firstly, schools players get into the academy mostly on the back of rugby played after they have finishedschool around the 18/19 mark. Schools rugby is a higher standard than club and thats coming from a former clubs player myself the whole way through the system.


Secondly, we have the A-team for competitive games for the academy, its a higher standard than AIL - 1 and you are playing against players in a similar environment i.e. professional full time players.


The last rant about the hierarchy of munster is just that a rant. Mindless. Somebody please think of the children.





Who did you play for?

fortress munster
9th-September-2010, 15:22
Limerick youths rugby is dminated by clubs rather than schools. The old school tie still carries weight in Irish rugby. The (ineffective) academies are stuffed full of schools playerswho never seem to play any rugbyyet pose around in Munster training gear as if they were Lions. Give me 15 guys with heart and passionover any bunch of school boy strutters. If Munster rugby lost its class structure the game would be better for it.

couldn't agree more. i see alot of these bodybuilder types hanging around in munster gear. if they make the academy they play v connacht and ulster in the u20 inter pros and italy, scotland and maybe wales in the u20's 6nations. often conveniently injured for harder opponents they then snob club rugby.
our future munster stars should be current AIL superstars and hard men not delicate bodybuilders.....

JoeyFantastic
9th-September-2010, 15:32
Limerick youths rugby is dminated by
clubs rather than schools.* The old school tie still carries
weight in Irish rugby.* The (ineffective) academies are
stuffed full of schools players*who never seem to play any
rugby*yet pose around in Munster training gear as if they
were Lions.* Give me 15 guys with heart and passion*over
any bunch of school boy strutters.* If Munster rugby lost its
class structure the game would be better for
it.couldn't agree more. i see alot of these
bodybuilder types hanging around in munster gear. if they
make the academy they play v connacht and ulster in the
u20 inter pros and italy, scotland and maybe wales in the
u20's 6nations. often conveniently injured for harder
opponents they then snob club rugby. our future munster
stars should be current AIL superstars and hard men not
delicate bodybuilders.....

Is that really fair?

This is the latest Munster A team, most have some AIL
rugby played. Infact, a fair few have won at least one AIL
with Con, some like Holland might have won two?

Sean Scanlon UCC (Con this season?)
Denis Hurley (won AIL with Con?)
Ivan Dineen UCC,
Troy Smith Midleton,
Simon Zebo (won AIL with Con);
Scott Deasy (won AIL with Con, promotion with UCC?),
Duncan Williams (won AIL with Con)
Darragh Hurley (won AIL with Con?)
Sean Henry (UL/Boh's)
Stephen Archer (Won AIL with Con)
Dave Foley (UL/Boh's),
Ian Nagle (Won AIL with Con, pormotion with UCC?)
Billy Holland (Won AIL with Con?)
Tommy O'Donnell (UL/Bohs)
James Coughlan (Dolphin)

Replacements:
Ger Burke (Old Crescent)
Dave Kilcoyne (UL/Boh's)
Alan Cotter (Young Munster)
Dave O'Callaghan (UCC?)
Paddy Butler (Shannon)
Conor Murray (Garryowen (won promotion with YM?)
Eric Maloney (Dolphin)
Ronan O'Mahoney (Garryowen)

munstersranger
9th-September-2010, 16:41
Donnacha Ryan, Tony Buckley have broken through, Peter
O'Mahony, Paddy Butler & Tommy O'Donnell are next generation.
We need to supplement these guys with Limerick players, at the
moment there is nothing. When you consider Limerick is the
stronghold of Munster rugby it's alarming. The stats are there, in
the team starting against Edinburgh tomorrow there is no Limerick
born player on the team. Of course Shannon, Cork Con etc will
scoop up the best players from smaller clubs from outside counties
but what I can't understand is where are the Limerick players? Is it a
schools problem?Halvey, Wally, Claw brothers, Fla, POC, Hayes all
great players but now there is nothing.



I wouldn't get too hung up on where playeres are born. Limerick
clubs have always soaked up players from Clare, Tipperary and
Kerry.



Guys like Foley and Horan are Clare men but all their schooling
and rugby has been in Limerick.


The switch to the academy structure has changed the perception
a bit because players are going straight from schools into the
Munster setup rather than joining senior clubs firs


*


Derek tobin played on a St endas team that were beaten finalists in
2 schools senior cup finals. So, it could be argued that they were
one of the best schools in Munster rugby at the time.

As for the cork bias.. its has been and always will be a part of
Munster rugby, no matter how many trophies are won on
shannonside. Look at the treatment of Ger earls.

I could be wrong but didn't claw play schools with comp??

Lightblue
9th-September-2010, 18:09
Donnacha Ryan, Tony Buckley have broken through, Peter
O'Mahony, Paddy Butler &amp; Tommy O'Donnell are next generation.
We need to supplement these guys with Limerick players, at the
moment there is nothing. When you consider Limerick is the
stronghold of Munster rugby it's alarming. The stats are there, in
the team starting against Edinburgh tomorrow there is no Limerick
born player on the team. Of course Shannon, Cork Con etc will
scoop up the best players from smaller clubs from outside counties
but what I can't understand is where are the Limerick players? Is it a
schools problem?Halvey, Wally, Claw brothers, Fla, POC, Hayes all
great players but now there is nothing.




I wouldn't get too hung up on where playeres are born. Limerick
clubs have always soaked up players from Clare, Tipperary and
Kerry.




Guys like Foley and Horan are Clare men but all their schooling
and rugby has been in Limerick.



The switch to the academy structure has changed the perception
a bit because players are going straight from schools into the
Munster setup rather than joining senior clubs firs









Derek tobin played on a St endas team that were beaten finalists in
2 schools senior cup finals. So, it could be argued that they were
one of the best schools in Munster rugby at the time.

As for the cork bias.. its has been and always will be a part of
Munster rugby, no matter how many trophies are won on
shannonside. Look at the treatment of Ger earls.

I could be wrong but didn't claw play schools with comp??





I am Claws vintage. Never played schools against him only club. Often played against the Comp.


Toby would most probably be passed over in todays set up as he would not be in an A school.

Conan
9th-September-2010, 18:26
I was under the impression this thread sought to discuss the current predicament rather than the stars of yesteryear? There's no doubting in the past club-rugby was the bedrock of munster-rugby and this was reflected in the players graduating to the senior munster set-up.


However, the reality nowadays is that the vast majority of the better rugby players end up in the schools system, for one reason or another. It's pretty evident that the standard of schools rugby is quite a bit higher that youths, the coaches have much more time with their players etc. It's not a case of rugby-snobbery. Youths players who are judged to be of high enough quality get their chance, see Barnes, Foley etc.


On the Munster-Limerick "fued" I'd think its immaterial where the players born or schooled. The fact is Cork schools, particularly PBChave been more succesful for the last decade and this is reflected in those graduating to academy/dev/full contracts. Does Munster Rugby need a stronger contribution from Limerick schools? Yes, obviously.

JoeyFantastic
9th-September-2010, 18:47
*


I was under the impression this thread sought to discuss
the current predicament rather than the stars of
yesteryear? There's no doubting in the past club-rugby was
the bedrock of munster-rugby and this was reflected in the
players graduating to the senior munster set-up.


However, the reality nowadays is that the vast majority
of the better rugby players end up in the schools system,
for one reason or another. It's pretty evident that the
standard of schools rugby is quite a bit higher that youths,
the coaches have much more time with their players etc.
It's not a case of rugby-snobbery. Youths players who are
judged to be of high enough quality get their chance, see
Barnes, Foley etc.


On the Munster-Limerick "fued" I'd think its immaterial
where the players born or schooled. The fact is Cork
schools, particularly PBC*have been more succesful for the
last decade and this is reflected in those graduating to
academy/dev/full contracts. Does Munster Rugby need a
stronger contribution from Limerick schools? Yes,
obviously.


*

While you are right, it's important to remember Munster is
unique in that we have far, far more club underage players
than schools players (something like 11,000 vs 5,000).
When it comes to schools we are way behind Leinster and
Ulster (who both have 12,000 each). We either need to find
a way to get more players into the schools system or find a
way to improve the quality of club coaching (or ideally
both).

I've been told repeatedly that it's impossible to get another
A school in Cork, we should focus on getting A schools in
Clare, Waterford and Kerry. Pity Roscrea play in Leinster.

Downsouthdukin
9th-September-2010, 19:13
Eoin Kelly was schooled in Flannans. so does this mean
tipperarys eoin kelly is a clare man?

greenback
13th-April-2011, 11:45
Limerick youths rugby is dminated by clubs rather than schools. The old school tie still carries weight in Irish rugby. The (ineffective) academies are stuffed full of schools playerswho never seem to play any rugbyyet pose around in Munster training gear as if they were Lions. Give me 15 guys with heart and passionover any bunch of school boy strutters. If Munster rugby lost its class structure the game would be better for it.


after watching the recent u19 shannon/marys match against the munster u19 squad i was very impressed with the sheer natural talent shown by the club lads

Clubman
13th-April-2011, 12:24
Limerick youths rugby is dminated by clubs rather than schools. The old school tie still carries weight in Irish rugby. The (ineffective) academies are stuffed full of schools playerswho never seem to play any rugbyyet pose around in Munster training gear as if they were Lions. Give me 15 guys with heart and passionover any bunch of school boy strutters. If Munster rugby lost its class structure the game would be better for it.

couldn't agree more. i see alot of these bodybuilder types hanging around in munster gear. if they make the academy they play v connacht and ulster in the u20 inter pros and italy, scotland and maybe wales in the u20's 6nations. often conveniently injured for harder opponents they then snob club rugby.
our future munster stars should be current AIL superstars and hard men not delicate bodybuilders.....


+2 for me on that too. I see loads of these shapers with the gear on them.

Went to a U/20 match in Nenagh a couple of eyars ago. Locals v Shannon. The visiting side were all huge lumps and many were academy players - our local academy liason, for want of a better word, Pat Whelan was familiar with many of them - while our locals were pretty much a scratch side. It was nip and tuck for much of the game but eventually size and probably superior fitness told for Shannon. They should have blown our lads away given the disparity in available "talent".

But the inescapable facts were, that the scrawny locals had more rugby in them and the Shannon side, for all their academy players, had less. In fact, I commented at the time that for the disparity in "class" between the sides, that Shannon team were probably the worst coached team I ever saw. Therein lies a problem too.

As to the Cork maffia? Don't even get me started.

Red October
13th-April-2011, 14:13
Essentially you have Cork's population & hinterland feeding
into only 2 schools.

In Limerick, a far, far smaller urban area, with it's
hinterland, there are two traditionally 'strong' schools in
Munchins & Comp. A 3rd, new 'strong' school in
Castletroy. Ard Scoil who are cyclically strong/weak. Call
it 3/4 schools. Glenstal, to all intents and purposes is a
Limerick school also, albeit catering to rural-based. 4/5
schools.

Rockwell sort of stands in splendid isolation.

I would argue strongly that it is primarily the sheer
concentration of talent in Cork, allied to the concentration
of the coaching talent down there that has lead to Cork's
dominant position as feeder to the pro game.

Simple as.

BourkeofDublin
13th-April-2011, 16:54
You know, it's funny, there is a tree effect of b***hing about
which team is better, which place is better, blah, blah,
blah, in this country.
First, we fight with other countries about how our
International team is better than their's. We remain
comrades in arms up until the international season is over.
Once the international season is over, we start b***hing
about how Munster is better than Leinster and how Leinster
is better than Munster, despite being pals for the previous
few weeks, almost to the point of true despise for one
another.
Then it seems we go a level deeper and complain about the
counties within those clubs. In Munster, it's Cork vs
Limerick, the true home of Munster rugby is Cork, the true
home of Munster rugby is Limerick, etc, etc.
It is incredible how parochial this country truly is, despite
claiming that we are a modern nation. You'd think we'd
have grown out of it by this stage and realised that the only
way to progress is by co-operation with one another rather
than constant conflict and penis size comparisons.

The Irish rugby team imploded on itself in the last World
Cup, partially due to the divide between Munster and
Leinster. The conflict was based on the view from either
province, that "Oh, we are different to them, they are
completely contrasting to us and we can't work with them".
Yet the same team went on to conquer Europe and win the
Grand slam once they put their differences aside and
stopped bickering.

The reason I am stating all this is because I can see this
thread quickly transforming into a Cork v.s Limerick b***h
off, and I don't believe it is productive, I wanted to get this
post in before that argument does start.

sewa
13th-April-2011, 17:07
Which is all fine but why has Limerick forward become an oxymoron like military intelligence?

JoeyFantastic
13th-April-2011, 17:18
Which is all fine but why has Limerick
forward become an oxymoron like military intelligence?


Too many senior clubs, imo and too many schools drawing
from too small a pool of players. It'll be interesting to see if
this years Junior Cup was a once off or if the numbers coming
through have changed. I don't keep too close an eye on it but
it's the first time I can remember four Limerick teams making
the semi-finals. By rights we should be seeing the first set of
kids "inspired" by Munster's Cup run in 2000 coming through
now.

sewa
13th-April-2011, 17:26
Ah come on. Limerick produced no nonsense hardmen forwards whocould live with anything the SH touring sides could provide for years. Is everyone gone soft? Taken up yoga?

JoeyFantastic
13th-April-2011, 17:29
Ah come on. Limerick produced no nonsense
hardmen forwards who*could live with anything the SH touring
sides could provide for years. Is everyone gone soft? Taken
up yoga?

The athletic standard has jumped, it's not enough to be hard
anymore. Guys like Clohessy wouldn't get a look in now with
all the gym monkeys populating the front row. Doubt Paco
ever bothered with sprints.

sewa
13th-April-2011, 17:43
Ah come on. Limerick produced no nonsense
hardmen forwards whocould live with anything the SH touring
sides could provide for years. Is everyone gone soft? Taken
up yoga?

The athletic standard has jumped, it's not enough to be hard
anymore. Guys like Clohessy wouldn't get a look in now with
all the gym monkeys populating the front row. Doubt Paco
ever bothered with sprints.
bo***cks it has. Claw /Paco at their peak would ate Mushy in any test. The question applies more than just to two positions by the way

JoeyFantastic
13th-April-2011, 17:44
Ah
come on. Limerick produced no nonsense hardmen
forwards who*could live with anything the SH touring sides
could provide for years. Is everyone gone soft? Taken up
yoga? The athletic standard has jumped, it's not
enough to be hard anymore. Guys like Clohessy wouldn't
get a look in now with all the gym monkeys populating the
front row. Doubt Paco ever bothered with sprints.
bo***cks it has. Claw /Paco at their peak would ate Mushy
in any test. The question applies more than just to two
positions by the way

Course they would but they wouldn't get a chance to.

sewa
13th-April-2011, 17:47
Look when I was in Limerick there was hardman forwards everywhere. Guys who would go through brick walls to win games. Is this now history?

Tobyglen
13th-April-2011, 17:48
Look when I was in Limerick there was hardman forwards everywhere. Guys who would go through brick walls to win games. Is this now history?


There all gone soft down there. Even Carlow is bringing through more forwards than the home of rugby.

JoeyFantastic
13th-April-2011, 19:02
Look when I was in Limerick there was
hardman forwards everywhere. Guys who would go through
brick walls to win games. Is this now history?

How many of those guys had great schools careers?

Munster players now come from the Academy, the schools
are the main way into the Academy and we're missing out on
players because of it, imo. As was pointed out earlier, the
clubs were always the big thing in Limerick, not schools.

tickettout
13th-April-2011, 19:06
Look when I was in Limerick there was hardman forwards everywhere. Guys who would go through brick walls to win games. Is this now history?


5of the grandslam winning pack 2 years agowere from Limerick.


we keep hearing about the guys cork are supposed to be bringing through - the problem is 95% of them aren't worth a f**k and haven't even came close to the first 22. Some of them are in their mid 20's and are being kept back from Munster MLduty to play with Cork Con in the AIL this w/esmileys/sad.gif


Only ConorMurray and Sherry have broken throughto the Munster first team squad this season(both will be internationals and both are from Limerick) the next most recent guy is Keith Earls - anyone else see the trend here?


The only intl standardforward that has come through from Cork in the last 10 yearsis DOC. Out of 1/2 million people and 1/2 the population of Munster that's an awful statistic.

JoeyFantastic
13th-April-2011, 19:08
Far be it from me to suggest the Cork bashing should go on a
different thread TT.

tickettout
13th-April-2011, 19:16
Far be it from me to suggest the Cork bashing should go on a
different thread TT.




They question Limerick's galactico forwards of Wallace,Paul O Connell, Axel Foley, Cronin ,Horan, Hayes, Flannery etc.yet expect us to say nothing about the fact that they have only provided O Callaghan in the forwards?smileys/sad.gif


Tipp atleastwith 1/4 of the population of Corkhave produced Quinnie and Leamy.

JoeyFantastic
13th-April-2011, 19:21
Far be it
from me to suggest the Cork bashing should go on a
different thread TT.


They question Limerick's galactico forwards of
Wallace,Paul O Connell, Axel Foley, Cronin ,Horan, Hayes,
Flannery etc.*yet expect us to say nothing about the fact
that they have only provided O Callaghan in the
forwards?smileys/sad.gif


Tipp atleast*with 1/4 of the population of Cork*have
produced Quinnie and Leamy.

It's a separate issue though, it's right to be concerned at
why the Limerick production line has slowed down. Mind
you, I don't think Boh's are helping much, almost their
entire pack is non-Limerick players being given Academy
spaces. Is it a case of them using the Academy to recruit
for the own advantage? By comparison, Con get a lot more
from their Munster players.

Tobyglen
13th-April-2011, 19:24
Far be it from me to suggest the Cork bashing should go on a
different thread TT.




Even 10 months on it's still the same, practically all our potentialforwards are from Cork &amp; Tipp.


POM, Butler, TOD- 2 Tipp Lads &amp; a Corkman.


2nd row, Nagle, Foley, Cork man ,Tipp man.


Front row. Archer, Hurley, Sherry.


Out of all that 1 Limerick forward, it's disastrous that the Shannon coveyor belt has ground to a halt. I presume Limerick has a huge amount of players, it's the number 1 game in the city &amp; very big in the county. Where are they going? The reason we have fallen off our perch is the home of rugby has stopped producing decent players. Whats going on there?

Tobyglen
13th-April-2011, 19:26
Far be it from me to suggest the Cork bashing should go on a
different thread TT.




They question Limerick's galactico forwards of Wallace,Paul O Connell, Axel Foley, Cronin ,Horan, Hayes, Flannery etc.yet expect us to say nothing about the fact that they have only provided O Callaghan in the forwards?smileys/sad.gif


Tipp atleastwith 1/4 of the population of Corkhave produced Quinnie and Leamy.





Your all wound up, we're not talking about the team from 10 years ago, it's now we have the problem.You'd cause an arguement with yourself if you looked in the mirror.

The Outlaw
13th-April-2011, 19:28
Have Cork ever produced that many top class international forwards?

JoeyFantastic
13th-April-2011, 19:30
Far be it
from me to suggest the Cork bashing should go on a
different thread TT.


Even 10 months on it's still the same, practically all our
potential*forwards are from Cork & Tipp.*


POM, Butler, TOD- 2 Tipp Lads & a Corkman.


2nd row, Nagle, Foley, Cork man ,Tipp man.


Front row. Archer, Hurley, Sherry.


Out of all that 1 Limerick forward, it's disastrous that the
Shannon coveyor belt has ground to a halt. I presume
Limerick has a huge amount of players, it's the number 1
game in the city & very big in the county. *Where are they
going? The reason we have fallen off our perch is the home
of rugby has stopped producing decent players. Whats
going on there?

Well two Limerick AIL coaches/players have come out and
said Munster simply aren't picking the right players for the
Academy, you'd have to assume they are closer to the
issue than we are.

It'll be interesting to see how Cotter and Murphy go against
Con this weekend. Personally, I'd keep Kilcoyne ahead of
Dave Ryan too.

Tobyglen
13th-April-2011, 19:30
Have Cork ever produced that many top class international forwards?


Not particularly. Limerick was always the place that broughtthrough the forwards. Cork has a long tradition in half backs, 2nd rows.

Tobyglen
13th-April-2011, 19:33
Far be it
from me to suggest the Cork bashing should go on a
different thread TT.



Even 10 months on it's still the same, practically all our
potentialforwards are from Cork &amp; Tipp.



POM, Butler, TOD- 2 Tipp Lads &amp; a Corkman.



2nd row, Nagle, Foley, Cork man ,Tipp man.



Front row. Archer, Hurley, Sherry.



Out of all that 1 Limerick forward, it's disastrous that the
Shannon coveyor belt has ground to a halt. I presume
Limerick has a huge amount of players, it's the number 1
game in the city &amp; very big in the county. Where are they
going? The reason we have fallen off our perch is the home
of rugby has stopped producing decent players. Whats
going on there?




Well two Limerick AIL coaches/players have come out and
said Munster simply aren't picking the right players for the
Academy, you'd have to assume they are closer to the
issue than we are.

It'll be interesting to see how Cotter and Murphy go against
Con this weekend. Personally, I'd keep Kilcoyne ahead of
Dave Ryan too.


Kilcoyne, Dave Ryan aren't cutting it.


I would say plenty of guys are wrongly looked over because of politics, contacts. Is Holland really deserving of a Munster contract? What about the guys in Bruff, surely 1/2 of them deserved to be looked at.


John Ryan at UCC seems to be a good player but it's probably too late for him. Same with Cotter. 25 is a shocking age to be putting a lad in the academy.

tickettout
13th-April-2011, 19:34
Have Cork ever produced that many top class international forwards?


no.


DOC apart and he isn't what you would call top class.

The Outlaw
13th-April-2011, 19:37
Have Cork ever produced that many top class international forwards?


Not particularly. Limerick was always the place that broughtthrough the forwards. Cork has a long tradition in half backs, 2nd rows.





Thought as much but I wasnt sure. I remember from the AIL the Cork teams always played good rugby and could cut you to bits if you gave them as much ball.but you could really get at their setpiece


We always fancied our chances against the Cork clubs more in the AIL especially if it was a wet day as we pretty much tried to kick the s**te out of them.


Those tactics didnt cut much ice against Garryowen and Shannon unfortunately and usually we got the s**t kicked out of us. They definitely had a good interpretation of the term rucking

JoeyFantastic
13th-April-2011, 19:38
Kilcoyne, Dave Ryan aren't cutting it.


I would say plenty of guys are wrongly looked over
because of politics, contacts. Is Holland really deserving of
a Munster contract? What about the guys in Bruff, surely
1/2 of them deserved to be looked at.


John Ryan at UCC seems to be a good player but it's
probably too late for him. Same with Cotter. 25 is a
shocking age to be putting a lad in the
academy.

25 is too old for the Academy but it's not too old to be a
pro player. Coughlan was only brought in then.

It's also worth remembering three of the biggest prospects
underage from Limerick in the last few years, Burke,
McCarthy and Kelleher haven't gone into/stayed in the
Academy for a variety of reasons.

Tobyglen
13th-April-2011, 19:39
Have Cork ever produced that many top class international forwards?


Not particularly. Limerick was always the place that broughtthrough the forwards. Cork has a long tradition in half backs, 2nd rows.





Thought as much but I wasnt sure. I remember from the AIL the Cork teams always played good rugby and could cut you to bits if you gave them as much ball.but you could really get at their setpiece


We always fancied our chances against the Cork clubs more in the AIL especially if it was a wet day as we pretty much tried to kick the s**te out of them.


Those tactics didnt cut much ice against Garryowen and Shannon unfortunately and usually we got the s**t kicked out of us. They definitely had a good interpretation of the term rucking





Numbers wise Hurling, GAA &amp;soccer are much more popular. Rugby is only getting there lately. Much more popular sport in Limerick.

slipper1
13th-April-2011, 19:41
currently Cork have O'Callaghan, Mike Ross, Tony Buckley and Mick O'Driscoll. Mickois only one of that 4 that would beknown for his ball skills, that's a bigger problem if you ask me.

Tobyglen
13th-April-2011, 19:45
Kilcoyne, Dave Ryan aren't cutting it.



I would say plenty of guys are wrongly looked over
because of politics, contacts. Is Holland really deserving of
a Munster contract? What about the guys in Bruff, surely
1/2 of them deserved to be looked at.



John Ryan at UCC seems to be a good player but it's
probably too late for him. Same with Cotter. 25 is a
shocking age to be putting a lad in the
academy.




25 is too old for the Academy but it's not too old to be a
pro player. Coughlan was only brought in then.

It's also worth remembering three of the biggest prospects
underage from Limerick in the last few years, Burke,
McCarthy and Kelleher haven't gone into/stayed in the
Academy for a variety of reasons.


That was 3/4 years ago &amp; I would say it would be harder for guys now. Academy players have years of conditioning on them. Buckley was a guy who we bought in at 26 &amp; we all seen how that turned out.


I think Archer for example was hopeless until lately, he's still only 23 but 3 years in a pro setup will give a chance to prove himself soon even though he mighn't have been that talented. A guy like John Ryan might have more natural strength but just hasn't got the opportunity for one reason or another.

JoeyFantastic
13th-April-2011, 19:49
Maybe Toby, it's hard to know. Ross went pro at the same
age, with our pool of players we just can't afford to overlook
anyone.

Tobyglen
13th-April-2011, 20:01
Maybe Toby, it's hard to know. Ross went pro at the same
age, with our pool of players we just can't afford to overlook
anyone.


Now that the academy is overhauled, hopefullythe talented guys will get into the academies in their teens.

robbie#1
13th-April-2011, 20:20
I think the school and club league shouldn't overlap you should be
allowed to play for both .. I would also like to see some serious
involvement between the academey and underage players . Ie open
training camps for certain positions .. Bring out some of the young
upcoming players from various clubs and school teams even the very
young and not like the centra ones they shoul be free to and existing
club or school player. And even hand pick the best for a second
training session ... We could find some serious talent for a very small
outlay. This is one area that soccer are miles ahead they know the
benefit of getting a player very young age and developing them

JoeyFantastic
13th-April-2011, 20:35
I think the school and club league
shouldn't overlap you should be
allowed to play for both .. I would also like to see some
serious
involvement between the academey and underage players
. Ie open
training camps for certain positions .. Bring out some of the
young
upcoming players from various clubs and school teams
even the very
young and not like the centra ones they shoul be free to
and existing
club or school player. And even hand pick the best for a
second
training session ... We could find some serious talent for a
very small
outlay. This is one area that soccer are miles ahead they
know the
benefit of getting a player very young age and developing
them

There are already training sessions for schools players who
Munster are looking at, not sure how new a thing it is.

McCloud
13th-April-2011, 20:56
Maybe Toby, it's hard to know. Ross went pro at the same <BR sab="1080">age, with our pool of players we just can't afford to overlook <BR sab="1081">anyone.
Now that the academy is overhauled, hopefullythe talented guys will get into the academies in their teens.






What over haul?

Tobyglen
13th-April-2011, 21:12
Maybe Toby, it's hard to know. Ross went pro at the same <BR sab="1080">age, with our pool of players we just can't afford to overlook <BR sab="1081">anyone.
Now that the academy is overhauled, hopefullythe talented guys will get into the academies in their teens.









What over haul?





Around3 years ago, there was a complete overhaul into how players were picked, positions were specifically targetted &amp; more money &amp; resourceswere made available.

dezzy100
14th-April-2011, 17:49
Ive been threw the schools system and the coachs were absolutly s**te, right up until senior cup year when you had decent coaches, but thats four years off poor coaches some of which never played rugby, then your final 2 years you had some proper coaching, its crazy looking back at how poor the coaches were at a age when you need to be taught the bascis properly. My cousin is in the munster schools set up now and it doesnt seem like the best of systems, they depend too much on schools to train the players

ormond lad
14th-April-2011, 17:55
Ive been threw the schools system and the coachs were absolutly s**te, right up until senior cup year when you had decent coaches, but thats four years off poor coaches some of which never played rugby, then your final 2 years you had some proper coaching, its crazy looking back at how poor the coaches were at a age when you need to be taught the bascis properly. My cousin is in the munster schools set up now and it doesnt seem like the best of systems, they depend too much on schools to train the players


thats wrong, munster have tried put in ways thatacademy/sub academy coacheswould get more control of the training of the best players but the schools would not let this happen as they thought it would affect thier chances of winning the SC, the system is wrong in that the top schools have had too much power in making keydecisions but from what ive heard and with declan maddennowin charge of theage grade committee the schools wont be able to exert asd much pressure and be as dominant as they have been in the past

sternum
15th-April-2011, 13:41
Limerick rugby is a bit like the country at the moment - in the s**t and lacking leadership and direction.

LondonMunster
15th-April-2011, 14:09
You can't claim Horan as a Limerick man, he's from Clare.

Native Land
15th-April-2011, 16:27
You can't claim Horan as a Limerick
man, he's from Clare.


Yes technically, but played his schools rugby in Munchins his
club rugby with Shannon so cant get much more Limerick than
that.

(he was probably born in Limerick like most Clare folk!!)

bannerman
18th-April-2011, 20:04
the biggest problem is that the forwards aren't cutting their teeth on the rugby that was the bedrock of Munster's successful teams. They are wrapped up in this academy sheyet where they ponce about the place doing lovely grids, learning all the lovely rugby speak. Look at all the successful forwards over the last 15 years, all did their apprenticeship in the AIL with the clubs.


And schools have a lot to answer for with the cozy relationship they have with the Munster set up. Shannon/St.Mary's got to a Munster under 19s final this year and not one player has been asked to come training for any of the Munster under age sides. Why is that? How many Thomond players have been asked? Like it or not the Munster under age sides are being sewn up by a cozy cartel of schools and Munster branch career coaches. They don't expect anything to come from the clubs so don't look, in Limerick anyway. They are brainwashed into thinking that the only place to look is the schools. Schools rugby destroys club rugby in Limerick andis the biggest reason for the Exodus of players from the sport. 27 Shannon/St.Mary's players panelled this year leaving a skeleton crew to try to get some rugby going for the lads that are left. Only some creative thinking got any rugby at these clubs at u19 this season.

sparks
18th-April-2011, 21:16
I think they should do away with the academy to an extent and have the players play in the AIL and then when good enough or if Munster are short a player or two can call them up. Then its up to Munster branch to fund the players as I dont think many many clubs would be able to on their own

Tobyglen
18th-April-2011, 21:23
I think they should do away with the academy to an extent and have the players play in the AIL and then when good enough or if Munster are short a player or two can call them up. Then its up to Munster branch to fund the players as I dont think many many clubs would be able to on their own


You can't be serious? The academy is vital in getting players up to the sufficent levels of fitness &amp; physique. Our problem is we have been too slow to embrace the academy.With the B&amp;I cup, AIL games &amp; interpro games the players get plenty of time on the pitch.


The days of letting players get by on AIL matches &amp; a bit of training on the side is gone, the game has moved on. That's part of the reason why we were stuck in a bubble with no guys making the breakthrough. Guys need to be training professionally at 18 if they're good enough.

Combatlogo
18th-April-2011, 21:44
I think they should do away with the academy to an extent and have the players play in the AIL and then when good enough or if Munster are short a player or two can call them up. Then its up to Munster branch to fund the players as I dont think many many clubs would be able to on their own


You can't be serious? The academy is vital in getting players up to the sufficent levels of fitness &amp; physique. Our problem is we have been too slow to embrace the academy.With the B&amp;I cup, AIL games &amp; interpro games the players get plenty of time on the pitch.


The days of letting players get by on AIL matches &amp; a bit of training on the side is gone, the game has moved on. That's part of the reason why we were stuck in a bubble with no guys making the breakthrough. Guys need to be training professionally at 18 if they're good enough.





I think Sparks' suggestion is an excellent one!smileys/lol.gifsmileys/wink.gif