lions team

[ECHO]

as expected. no real surprises, 5 irish. no idea on bench.

[Drick]

what's the starting 15 then?

[Ruck]

Paulie, Wally, Heaslip, BOD & Bowe are the 5, i assume?

[Bosco]

ROG in so?

[Bitter As A Lemon]

Who are the Irish?

[Munstermaniac]

as expected. no real surprises, 5 irish. no idea on bench.

Source/Link?

[Bosco]

s**t, forgot bout Heaslip

[SecondRowGal]

Lads, in the interest of completeness and keeping the site some way in order, can you please not start new threads without any new/real information.

Thanks
SRG

[Luimneach]

What's the story who is in etc ?

[dell]

The announcement was expected to be made on Wednesday but will now take place on Thursday at 12.30 pm London,Cardiff, Edinburgh and Dublin time, from the lions web site

Shane Williams
Shane Williams
Shane Williams
Shane Williams
Shane Williams
Shane Williams
Shane Williams
Shane Williams
Shane Williams
Shane Williams
Shane Williams
Shane Williams
Shane Williams
Shane Williams
Shane Williams


Bench:
Matt Williams

[SecondRowGal]

Lads, I am going to start deleting posts now. Quit with the Munster team posts please.

[kahalui]

Paulie, Wally, Heaslip, BOD & Bowe are the 5, i assume?


its gotta be those 5

[RobbieG]

Lads, I am going to start deleting posts now. Quit with the Munster team posts please.


BOO!

[Ruginator]

Coming up live on sky sports news after the break!!!!!!!!!!

[kahalui]

Lads, I am going to start deleting posts now. Quit with the Munster team posts please.


where were you when the knacker thread needed closing down yesterday?

[kahalui]

Shane Williams
Shane Williams
Shane Williams
Shane Williams
Shane Williams
Shane Williams
Shane Williams
Shane Williams
Shane Williams
Shane Williams
Shane Williams
Shane Williams
Shane Williams
Shane Williams
Shane Williams


Bench:
Matt Williams



smileys/lol.gifsmileys/lol.gifsmileys/lol.gifsmileys/lol.gif

[SecondRowGal]

I wasn't on line actually, kahalui, and as you can see the thread is gone. Please keep on topic. Thanks.

On Goal...... Lee Byrne


Right Corner Back..... Tommy Bowe


Full Back........... Brian O'Driscoll

[RobbieG]

It's 12.30!

<s&#111;ng>Lions (vs South Africa, first Test, Saturday June 20)</s&#111;ng>


15. Lee Byrne (Ospreys/Wales)

14. Tommy Bowe (Ospreys/Ireland)

13. Brian O'Driscoll (Leinster/Ireland)

12. Jamie Roberts (Cardiff Blues/Wales)

11. Ugo Monye (Harlequins/England)

10. Stephen Jones (Scarlets/Wales)

9. Mike Phillips (Ospreys/Wales)


8. Jamie Heaslip (Leinster/Ireland)

7. David Wallace (Munster/Ireland)

6. Tom Croft (Leicester Tigers/England)

5. Paul O'Connell (Munster/Ireland) Captain

4. Alun-Wyn Jones (Ospreys/Wales)

3. Phil Vickery (London Wasps/England)

2. Lee Mears (Bath/England)

1. Gethin Jenkins (Cardiff Blues/Wales)


<s&#111;ng>Replacements</s&#111;ng>


16. Matthew Rees (Scarlets/Wales)

17. Adam Jones (Ospreys/Wales)

18. Donncha O'Callaghan (Munster/Ireland)

19. Martyn Williams (Cardiff Blues/Wales)

20. Harry Ellis (Leicester Tigers/England)

21. Ronan O'Gara (Munster/Ireland)

22. Rob Kearney (Leinster/Ireland)

[Drick]

<S&#079;NG>Lions (vs South Africa, first Test, Saturday June 20)</S&#079;NG>


15. Lee Byrne (Ospreys/Wales)
14. Tommy Bowe (Ospreys/Ireland)
13. Brian O'Driscoll (Leinster/Ireland)
12. Jamie Roberts (Cardiff Blues/Wales)
11. Ugo Monye (Harlequins/England)
10. Stephen Jones (Scarlets/Wales)
9. Mike Phillips (Ospreys/Wales)


8. Jamie Heaslip (Leinster/Ireland)
7. David Wallace (Munster/Ireland)
6. Tom Croft (Leicester Tigers/England)
5. Paul O'Connell (Munster/Ireland) Captain
4. Alun-Wyn Jones (Ospreys/Wales)
3. Phil Vickery (London Wasps/England)
2. Lee Mears (Bath/England)
1. Gethin Jenkins (Cardiff Blues/Wales)


<S&#079;NG>Replacements</S&#079;NG>


16. Matthew Rees (Scarlets/Wales)
17. Adam Jones (Ospreys/Wales)
18. Donncha O'Callaghan (Munster/Ireland)
19. Martyn Williams (Cardiff Blues/Wales)
20. Harry Ellis (Leicester Tigers/England)
21. Ronan O'Gara (Munster/Ireland)
22. Rob Kearney (Leinster/Ireland)

[Donny B.]

<DIV ="absact ">Lions head coach Ian McGeechan and tour manager Gerald Davies have named the matchday 22 for Saturday's opening Test against South Africa in Durban.</DIV>
<DIV ="article ">The Lions face the reigning world champions in the first of three internationals in as many weeks as they look to build upon six successive victories over provincial and invitational opposition.


The side to face the Springboks at the newly renamed ABSA Stadium includes six Welshmen, five Irishmen and four Englishmen, with a further three Welshmen, three Irishmen and one Englishman named on the replacements bench.


Ireland’s Paul O’Connell captains the side from the second row, where he is joined by Wales international Alun-Wyn Jones.


Elsewhere up front, previous Lions Test players Gethin Jenkins and Phil Vickery are selected at prop, with Lee Mears packing down between them in the front row.


Leicester’s Tom Croft, who missed out on selection for the original 37-man Lions squad back in April, is named at blindside flanker, with Irish duo David Wallace and Jamie Heaslip at openside and No8 respectively.


Mike Phillips and Stephen Jones form a Welsh half-back partnership, with 2005 Lions skipper Brian O’Driscoll selected outside Cardiff Blues star Jamie Roberts in the centres.


Ospreys team-mates Lee Byrne and Tommy Bowe start at full back and on the right wing, with Ugo Monye of Harlequins and England winning the race for the left-wing berth.


As for the replacements, Welshmen Matthew Rees and Adam Jones provide front row back up, while Donncha O’Callaghan is the second row option and Martyn Williams covers the back row.


Harry Ellis and Ronan O’Gara provide options at halfback and Leinster’s Rob Kearney has recovered from the dead leg he suffered against the Southern Kings to claim the final place in the 22.


"The Test team has been picked on form following the six provincial matches,” said McGeechan, who masterminded the most-recent series winning Lions tour back in 1997.


"There were some very difficult calls to make as the players as a group and individually have done everything that we have asked of them and performed on the field.


"The preparation for the First Test has been very positive. It has been a challenge to reach the First Test with an unbeaten record as we have played a variety of provincial teams across the country.


"This challenge is a unique one in the modern rugby calendar in that it comes only in a Lions context these days. The players have had to adapt to preparing and playing more frequently. They have answered that challenge.


"It has been 20 years since a Lions team has won all of its' provincial matches leading up to the Test series so it is very satisfying to be in such a position. The entire squad and the management have worked hard to create an outstanding team environment. Everyone has done this very professionally and it is fair to say that I would not change anything that we have done so far."


"Playing South Africa on its home soil is one of the ultimate challenges for the British &amp; Irish Lions,” added Davies, who was a victorious Lion in New Zealand 38 years ago.


"South Africa also happen to be world champions which adds an extra edge to the series, just as it did in 1997.


"The tradition between the Lions and the Springboks is legendary and after the six lead up provincial matches the rugby world is waiting with great anticipation for the First Test in Durban this Saturday."


<S&#079;NG>Lions (vs South Africa, first Test, Saturday June 20)</S&#079;NG>


15. Lee Byrne (Ospreys/Wales)
14. Tommy Bowe (Ospreys/Ireland)
13. Brian O'Driscoll (Leinster/Ireland)
12. Jamie Roberts (Cardiff Blues/Wales)
11. Ugo Monye (Harlequins/England)
10. Stephen Jones (Scarlets/Wales)
9. Mike Phillips (Ospreys/Wales)


8. Jamie Heaslip (Leinster/Ireland)
7. David Wallace (Munster/Ireland)
6. Tom Croft (Leicester Tigers/England)
5. Paul O'Connell (Munster/Ire

[Bosco]

South Africa 1, The Irish and Brittish Lions 0.

[SecondRowGal]

DOC on bench!smileys/thumb-up.gif Well deserved, IMO. Just as well Ian Mc doesn't listen to Sky commentary!smileys/lol.gif

[Fullback]

15. Lee Byrne (Ospreys/Wales)
14. Tommy Bowe (Ospreys/Ireland)
13. Brian O'Driscoll (Leinster/Ireland)
12. Jamie Roberts (Cardiff Blues/Wales)
11. Ugo Monye (Harlequins/England)
10. Stephen Jones (Scarlets/Wales)
9. Mike Phillips (Ospreys/Wales)


8. Jamie Heaslip (Leinster/Ireland)
7. David Wallace (Munster/Ireland)
6. Tom Croft (Leicester Tigers/England)
5. Paul O'Connell (Munster/Ireland) Captain
4. Alun-Wyn Jones (Ospreys/Wales)
3. Phil Vickery (London Wasps/England)
2. Lee Mears (Bath/England)
1. Gethin Jenkins (Cardiff Blues/Wales)


<S&#079;NG>Replacements</S&#079;NG>


16. Matthew Rees (Scarlets/Wales)
17. Adam Jones (Ospreys/Wales)
18. Donncha O'Callaghan (Munster/Ireland)
19. Martyn Williams (Cardiff Blues/Wales)
20. Harry Ellis (Leicester Tigers/England)
21. Ronan O'Gara (Munster/Ireland)
22. Rob Kearney (Leinster/Ireland)

[kahalui]

I wasn't on line actually, kahalui, and as you can see the thread is gone. Please keep on topic. Thanks.



well, you should have got involved yesterday and not today..i didnt see you condemning the knacker thread but you're threatening to close down thisthread for no apparent reason... where's the consistency folks?


ps. who says i have to keep on the topic. you sound like a school teacher and im too old to be your pupil

[corkexile]

Lions (vs South Africa, first Test, Saturday June 20)

15. Lee Byrne (Ospreys/Wales)
14. Tommy Bowe (Ospreys/Ireland)
13. Brian O'Driscoll (Leinster/Ireland)
12. Jamie Roberts (Cardiff Blues/Wales)
11. Ugo Monye (Harlequins/England)
10. Stephen Jones (Scarlets/Wales)
9. Mike Phillips (Ospreys/Wales)

8. Jamie Heaslip (Leinster/Ireland)
7. David Wallace (Munster/Ireland)
6. Tom Croft (Leicester Tigers/England)
5. Paul O'Connell (Munster/Ireland) Captain
4. Alun-Wyn Jones (Ospreys/Wales)
3. Phil Vickery (London Wasps/England)
2. Lee Mears (Bath/England)
1. Gethin Jenkins (Cardiff Blues/Wales)

Replacements

16. Matthew Rees (Scarlets/Wales)
17. Adam Jones (Ospreys/Wales)
18. Donncha O'Callaghan (Munster/Ireland)
19. Martyn Williams (Cardiff Blues/Wales)
20. Harry Ellis (Leicester Tigers/England)
21. Ronan O'Gara (Munster/Ireland)
22. Rob Kearney (Leinster/Ireland)

http://www.lionsrugby.com/news/8140.php

Where's Shane?

Tom Croft will be destroyed. They should have picked Williams. Fair play to DOC - didnt expect him to make the bench ahead of Hines. Boks by 9-12 points for me though.

[LLCOOLJ14]

moyne I wouldnt have picked-defensively I have my doubts...Joneshsnt rally doen all that much to get the nod at 10,but Rog hasnt been great either.... its the backrow Id have gone with....agree with all the rest of the players really....

[The Outlaw]

looks weak. delighted for Wallace and the rest of the the Irish lads. Wouldn't be happy with the pack or the replacement forwards bar DOC at all.

[RobbieG]

Looks weaksmileys/sad.gif

[LeakyBoots]

No major surprises there to be honest.


Still think the Lions will do it. Not much of an impact bench though

[LLCOOLJ14]

looks weak. delighted for Wallace and the rest of the the Irish lads. Wouldn't be happy with the pack or the replacement forwards bar DOC at all.


what backrow would you have on the bench then given the team that picked?smileys/c&#111;nfused.gif

[kahalui]

where's the centre cover on the bench?

[Daforce]

Delighted for O'Callaghan. Pretty much as expected.

[The Outlaw]

No major surprises there to be honest.


Still think the Lions will do it. Not much of an impact bench though





Cmon Croft instead of Williams. Does anyone really think that pack has enough beef for the Boks. All bias aside. No Sheridan on the bench is just plain silly. No disrespect to Kearney but it should have been Fitz.

[Twiggles]

Delighted for all the Irish lads involved. Personally would have expected M Williams ahead of Croft but pretty much as expected.

No major surprises there to be honest.


Still think the Lions will do it. Not much of an impact bench though





Hope you're right bu t i cant see that Lions pack getting their hands on much ball. I worry about the backrow in particular. I think Rog is unlucky and Fitzgerald very unlucky not to make the 22.

[bigchiefally]

where's the centre cover on the bench?

There isnt any, but Bowe and Monye can both play there.

[RobbieG]

where's the centre cover on the bench?

Bowe, Kearney to FB or wing

[Mucky Boots]

DOC should be starting ahead of Wyn-Jones on tour form and ROG can count himself maybe slightly unlucky not to be starting, but pretty much as expected. Mind you, I expected them to spring for Shaw beside Paulie given how they inexplicably rate him. The Boks will win this series 3-0.

[corkexile]

No major surprises to be fair based on the teams picked and
the form to date. Great to see DOC on the bench.

[The Outlaw]

looks weak. delighted for Wallace and the rest of the the Irish lads. Wouldn't be happy with the pack or the replacement forwards bar DOC at all.


what backrow would you have on the bench then given the team that picked?smileys/c&#111;nfused.gif





Well I certainly wouldn't have Adam Jones there. The lions are screwed if Mears has to come off- granted there wasn't much they could do there. Williams should be playing- its a crazy decision bowing to the likes of Stephen Jones of theTimesand picking Croft.


I can't fathom the Alwn Jones selection either- not enough grunt for matfield and botha

looks weak. delighted for Wallace and the rest of the the Irish lads. Wouldn't be happy with the pack or the replacement forwards bar DOC at all.


what backrow would you have on the bench then given the team that picked?smileys/c&#111;nfused.gif





Well I certainly wouldn't have Adam Jones there. The lions are screwed if Mears has to come off- granted there wasn't much they could do there. Williams should be playing- its a crazy decision bowing to the likes of Stephen Jones of theTimesand picking Croft.


I can't fathom the Alwn Jones selection either- not enough grunt for matfield and botha





At least the ridiculous Sky campaign for Simon Shaw didn't lead to any results. Sheridan not being on the bench is a big shock - is he injured? It seems ROG wasnt going to make the 22 only for Hooks injury

[Loop]

No real surprises in the 15. It's Jones, DOC &amp; Kearney on the bench that has me stroking me chin. Simon Shaw in particular can consider himself unlucky.

[thecoolfreak]

<S&#079;NG>moyne I wouldnt have picked-defensively I have my doubts</S&#079;NG>...Joneshsnt rally doen all that much to get the nod at 10,but Rog hasnt been great either.... its the backrow Id have gone with....agree with all the rest of the players really....


Thats my only worry with the team. He'll definitely be targeted, they'll try and kick a lot of ball down his wing, his positioning isn't his strong point. That said it was very tight between himself and Fitzgerald so I've no problem with the call. Reckon we might see Fitzgerald later in the tour

[RED 49]

doc was always going to be there imo,he has performed very well at front of lineout and in the loose,mcgeech didnt select him as captain because he once wore red shorts!

[rofey72]

NOt many Scots involved .,...... does that mean we'll have all green socks?? LOL smileys/wink.gif

[LLCOOLJ14]

What prop was on standby?Murray is going home...

[Hugonaut]

Phil Vickery is far more likely to be replaced, as he's 34 and Gethin
Jenkins has a far better engine. Hence Jones on the bench instead of
Sheridan.

It's just a shame that you have to have one of the appalling hookers on
the bench rather than Ted Sheridan. Neither Rees nor Ross Ford are
test match quality, they'll be murdered if they have to come on.

[If this was an amateur-era tour, I could see them trying Gethin
Jenkins as hooker in training and switching to a Sheridan, Jenkins,
Vickery front row if Mears took a knock... f*ck me, I'd love to see that
anyway! Just don't let the ball go into touch ...]

[Ja Boetie]

Fair play to David Wallace!! smileys/thumb-up.gif


I hope Croft is not blown away, but up against Juan Smith....smileys/sad.gif


I feel more disappointed for Ferris now than I did before. He'd've walked onto that team...

[eoinmc]

Could the Bull be going out?

[kahalui]

where's the centre cover on the bench?

Bowe, Kearney to FB or wing



yeah, i figured that much. but i wouldnt call it ideal cover tbf.. kearney on the wing, no thanks!

[Loop]

On a general point, it looks like it's 'quick, mobile' as opposed to 'big, beligerent' and 'running game' as opposed to 'structured, territorial'.

[Ja Boetie]

<S&#079;NG>moyne I wouldnt have picked-defensively I have my doubts</S&#079;NG>...Joneshsnt rally doen all that much to get the nod at 10,but Rog hasnt been great either.... its the backrow Id have gone with....agree with all the rest of the players really....


Thats my only worry with the team. He'll definitely be targeted, they'll try and kick a lot of ball down his wing, his positioning isn't his strong point. That said it was very tight between himself and Fitzgerald so I've no problem with the call. Reckon we might see Fitzgerald later in the tour





I think it could be a good thing if the Boks kick too much...I more worried about them running right through us

[TheRedHurricane]

where's the centre cover on the bench?
Bowe, Kearney to FB or wing


yeah, i figured that much. but i wouldnt call it ideal cover
tbf.. kearney on the wing, no thanks! Jones can
cover the center aswell.

[RED 49]

Fair play to David Wallace!! smileys/thumb-up.gif








3 wallaces ,3 lionssmileys/thumb-up.gif

[MunsterHaka]

Fair play to David Wallace!! smileys/thumb-up.gif


I hope Croft is not blown away, but up against Juan Smith....smileys/sad.gif


I feel more disappointed for Ferris now than I did before. He'd've walked onto that team...








So would Flannery and Quinlan!

[LeakyBoots]

No major surprises there to be honest.


Still think the Lions will do it. Not much of an impact bench though





Cmon Croft instead of Williams. Does anyone really think that pack has enough beef for the Boks. All bias aside. No Sheridan on the bench is just plain silly. No disrespect to Kearney but it should have been Fitz.





Square pegs and round holes. It'd be crazy to try Wallace at 6 when he hasn't played there all season. I don't necessarily agree with it, but I'm not surprised at the team picked.


The subs on the other hand are all wrong. I'd have had Fitz/Earls (yes, even Earls) There is no 'x' factor on that bench who could change a game. But realistically Earls was never gonna get picked.


Hopefully we won't ship any injuries, Williams and Jones to come on after 60. ROG too if things aren't going S. Jones' way

[ruckinhell]

Don't know what the big fuss about Croft's selection is, with Ferris out he was the obvious choice at 6 as Worsley hasn't done enough to merit inclusion. Sky have been bigging him up all year but as an instinctive reaction a lot of posters on this site have been unfairly harsh on him. He's quick, a good lineout option and will hopefully fit into the Lions gameplan. Although I'm a huge Wally fan I still think we need the nous of Williams if we're to play a quick dynamic offloading game.

[kahalui]

where's the centre cover on the bench?
Bowe, Kearney to FB or wing



yeah, i figured that much. but i wouldnt call it ideal cover
tbf.. kearney on the wing, no thanks!


Jones can
cover the center aswell.


yeah, but then someone has to cover OH.. moving 1 player to a position that he doesnt normally play in isnt idealwhen you've got specialists like darcy off the squad

[Bosco]

If Darcy was on the bench who would cover FB? kearney on the bench covers more options

[Aussiedub]

Its a very lightweight pack and I would have a number of worries....


1- If Mears gets injured early we are in serious trouble (WTF is Best not there???)


2 - I think Wyn Jones will struggle against Botha in the lineout and didn't look comfortable as a No2 jumper at all - Would have had Hines start and Jones on the bench


3 - Croft will get blown away I fear and Heaslip is going to have to spend the game head down in every ruck to cover for this instead of matching up against Spies...


4 - Jones I have worries with his goal kicking as it hasn't been that good and he doesn't have great range and I fear that could cost us, then again ROG hasn't been great tactically kicking so swings and roundabouts..


5 - Monye I have serious worries about his defence...great at stopping a guy running straight into him but weak when guys don't run straight into him and expect the Boks to really target him


6 - Jones, Rees, DOC, Ellis are not real game changers at all on the bench and I wouldn't be expecting much impact....


All in all this team is showing the massive losses that Flannery, O'Leary, Ferris, Quinlan, Shanklin were to the squad...stick them in and this game is a massive test for the Boks

[The Outlaw]

Don't know what the big fuss about Croft's selection is, with Ferris out he was the obvious choice at 6 as Worsley hasn't done enough to merit inclusion. Sky have been bigging him up all year but as an instinctive reaction a lot of posters on this site have been unfairly harsh on him. He's quick, a good lineout option and will hopefully fit into the Lions gameplan. Although I'm a huge Wally fan I still think we need the nous of Williams if we're to play a quick dynamic offloading game.


whats Croft going to do at the breakdown? Smith and Brussow will have him for breakfast. He's a waif in comaprison.

[webbs]

Fair play to David Wallace!! smileys/thumb-up.gif


I hope Croft is not blown away, but up against Juan Smith....smileys/sad.gif


I feel more disappointed for Ferris now than I did before. He'd've walked onto that
team...





*


So would Flannery and Quinlan!

Flannery would most certainly have walked onto the team and then would have had a
good dynamic option in Mears off the bench if needed. Really worry about the hooker
options on the bench.
Quinlan wouldnt have been in the 22 if Ferris was fit, to be honest I dont think he
would have even with Ferris gone as Croft offers pace which they will need if not the
dog.

[Mucky Boots]

The only logic I can see behind the selection of Jones is that McGeechan wants to play a running game as opposed to a kicking game.

[ceemec]

What prop was on standby?Murray is going home...

Healy was one of the stand by props but assume they'll be looking for a tighthead if any replacement at all.

Don't know what the big fuss about Croft's selection is, with Ferris out he was the obvious choice at 6 as Worsley hasn't done enough to merit inclusion. Sky have been bigging him up all year but as an instinctive reaction a lot of posters on this site have been unfairly harsh on him. He's quick, a good lineout option and will hopefully fit into the Lions gameplan. Although I'm a huge Wally fan I still think we need the nous of Williams if we're to play a quick dynamic offloading game.


whats Croft going to do at the breakdown? Smith and Brussow will have him for breakfast. He's a waif in comaprison.





It's also a real acid test for Heaslip - he's had an easy run at the no.8 jersey - its well deserved -but there's a lot of pressure on his shoulders now. It makes a big difference having a winger like Croft at 6 rather than a Leamy or a Ferris to do the dirty work. All in all its a poor lions team when you compare the 97 team. Hope im wrong but i cant see the lions winning the series

What prop was on standby?Murray is going home...

Healy was one of the stand by props but assume they'll be looking for a tighthead if any replacement at all.



Is that true? They'll pick a tighthead to come and play the Emerging Boks game id say as Sheridan will now start at loosehead in that game. Id imagine they'll ask Adam Jones to sub if they call a replacement and rest Vickery &amp; Jenkins obviously

[canine]

Im a very proud Irishman today 8 of our lads in the match 22 is a great return ,Id have bitten your hand off 6 months ago if offered that many

[thecoolfreak]

What prop was on standby?Murray is going home...

Healy was one of the stand by props but assume they'll be looking for a tighthead if any replacement at all.



Would be very surprised if they bother with a replacement. Only one midweek game and they Jones and Sheridan to start that one.


On someone saying Heaslip has had an easy ride so far. Where are you getting that from? He's shown himself to be the best 8 throughout the whole season. He's proved he is as good as anyone at the dirty work. He proved he's more than capable all season long and I've no doubt he'll continue on Saturday

What prop was on standby?Murray is going home...

Healy was one of the stand by props but assume they'll be looking for a tighthead if any replacement at all.



Would be very surprised if they bother with a replacement. Only one midweek game and they Jones and Sheridan to start that one.


On someone saying Heaslip has had an easy ride so far. Where are you getting that from? He's shown himself to be the best 8 throughout the whole season. He's proved he is as good as anyone at the dirty work. He proved he's more than capable all season long and I've no doubt he'll continue on Saturday





I'll judge him on Saturday - he deserves his place 100% - and im sure he'll do well im just making the point that this is the ultimate test of the guy

[thecoolfreak]

What prop was on standby?Murray is going home...

Healy was one of the stand by props but assume they'll be looking for a tighthead if any replacement at all.



Would be very surprised if they bother with a replacement. Only one midweek game and they Jones and Sheridan to start that one.


On someone saying Heaslip has had an easy ride so far. Where are you getting that from? He's shown himself to be the best 8 throughout the whole season. He's proved he is as good as anyone at the dirty work. He proved he's more than capable all season long and I've no doubt he'll continue on Saturday





I'll judge him on Saturday - he deserves his place 100% - and im sure he'll do well im just making the point that this is the ultimate test of the guy





As it is for everyone else in the 22. Its the biggest test most of them will have faced

[ruckinhell]

Don't know what the big fuss about Croft's selection is, with Ferris out he was the obvious choice at 6 as Worsley hasn't done enough to merit inclusion. Sky have been bigging him up all year but as an instinctive reaction a lot of posters on this site have been unfairly harsh on him. He's quick, a good lineout option and will hopefully fit into the Lions gameplan. Although I'm a huge Wally fan I still think we need the nous of Williams if we're to play a quick dynamic offloading game.


whats Croft going to do at the breakdown? Smith and Brussow will have him for breakfast. He's a waif in comaprison.





Given the options available to the selectors Croft at 6 was the right call. As for the breakdown, if it's a question of him hitting rucks tight in than yes, I reckon he'll suffer physically against the Bokke backrow. If it's a question of the Lions playing it fast and loose his mobility will be an asset. I believe that Heaslip will be doing a fair share of the grunt work as per the last two times this trio started together. My biggest fear is if Heaslip goes off injured. A backrow of Croft, Williams, Wallace is very light in comparison to the Springbok backrow.

[Loop]

Im a very proud Irishman today 8 of our lads in the match 22 is a great return ,Id have bitten your hand off 6 months ago if offered that many

... and just think. We would also have had TOL, Ferris &amp; Fla in there but for injuries.

What prop was on standby?Murray is going home...

Healy was one of the stand by props but assume they'll be looking for a tighthead if any replacement at all.



Would be very surprised if they bother with a replacement. Only one midweek game and they Jones and Sheridan to start that one.


On someone saying Heaslip has had an easy ride so far. Where are you getting that from? He's shown himself to be the best 8 throughout the whole season. He's proved he is as good as anyone at the dirty work. He proved he's more than capable all season long and I've no doubt he'll continue on Saturday





If Murray is out youd have to call a replacement becuase if not you have Sheridan and Jones to start against the Emerging Boks but you then need Jenkins/Vickery to sub. If early prop injury then youre expecting a guy to play a test match on Sat, a mid week game and a test match within 8 days - not worth the risk. They should bring a few players out (prop, b row &amp; fly half)to ensure guys are well rested for the second test. There will be a few injuries as the test matches go

[thecoolfreak]

What prop was on standby?Murray is going home...

Healy was one of the stand by props but assume they'll be looking for a tighthead if any replacement at all.



Would be very surprised if they bother with a replacement. Only one midweek game and they Jones and Sheridan to start that one.


On someone saying Heaslip has had an easy ride so far. Where are you getting that from? He's shown himself to be the best 8 throughout the whole season. He's proved he is as good as anyone at the dirty work. He proved he's more than capable all season long and I've no doubt he'll continue on Saturday





If Murray is out youd have to call a replacement becuase if not you have Sheridan and Jones to start against the Emerging Boks but you then need Jenkins/Vickery to sub. If early prop injury then youre expecting a guy to play a test match on Sat, a mid week game and a test match within 8 days - not worth the risk. They should bring a few players out (prop, b row &amp; fly half)to ensure guys are well rested for the second test. There will be a few injuries as the test matches go





Unless they flyhim out today they won't be calling out a replcement.

[sslazio11]

What prop was on standby?Murray is going home...

Healy was one of the stand by props but assume they'll be looking for a tighthead if any replacement at all.



Would be very surprised if they bother with a replacement. Only one midweek game and they Jones and Sheridan to start that one.


On someone saying Heaslip has had an easy ride so far. Where are you getting that from? He's shown himself to be the best 8 throughout the whole season. He's proved he is as good as anyone at the dirty work. He proved he's more than capable all season long and I've no doubt he'll continue on Saturday








I'd guess the point being made is that noone has challenged him for the 8 jersey at all, not that he hasn't played really well. I'm sure he'll rise to the challenge on Saturday, but I agree with whoever saidthat Croft being picked meansHeaslip have to spend more time hitting the rucks, which couldnegate his powerful running game.

[deltared]

What prop was on standby?Murray is going home...

Healy was one of the stand by props but assume they'll be looking for a tighthead if any replacement at all.



Would be very surprised if they bother with a replacement. Only one midweek game and they Jones and Sheridan to start that one.


On someone saying Heaslip has had an easy ride so far. Where are you getting that from? He's shown himself to be the best 8 throughout the whole season. He's proved he is as good as anyone at the dirty work. He proved he's more than capable all season long and I've no doubt he'll continue on Saturday





If Murray is out youd have to call a replacement becuase if not you have Sheridan and Jones to start against the Emerging Boks but you then need Jenkins/Vickery to sub. If early prop injury then youre expecting a guy to play a test match on Sat, a mid week game and a test match within 8 days - not worth the risk. They should bring a few players out (prop, b row &amp; fly half)to ensure guys are well rested for the second test. There will be a few injuries as the test matches go

Agree entirely. Hard grounds, high veldt is going to take a massive toll. Better prepared than sorry.

[eoinmc]

What prop was on standby?Murray is going home...

Healy was one of the stand by props but assume they'll be looking for a tighthead if any replacement at all.



Would be very surprised if they bother with a replacement. Only one midweek game and they Jones and Sheridan to start that one.


On someone saying Heaslip has had an easy ride so far. Where are you getting that from? He's shown himself to be the best 8 throughout the whole season. He's proved he is as good as anyone at the dirty work. He proved he's more than capable all season long and I've no doubt he'll continue on Saturday





If Murray is out youd have to call a replacement becuase if not you have Sheridan and Jones to start against the Emerging Boks but you then need Jenkins/Vickery to sub. If early prop injury then youre expecting a guy to play a test match on Sat, a mid week game and a test match within 8 days - not worth the risk. They should bring a few players out (prop, b row &amp; fly half)to ensure guys are well rested for the second test. There will be a few injuries as the test matches go





Unless they flyhim out today they won't be calling out a replcement.

McGeehan said in the press conference that he'll be looking for a short term replacement to come out

[eddie]

[/QUOTE]


I'll judge him on Saturday


[/QUOTE]





Judge POC while ur at it

[Aussiedub]

What prop was on standby?Murray is going home...

Healy was one of the stand by props but assume they'll be looking for a tighthead if any replacement at all.



Would be very surprised if they bother with a replacement. Only one midweek game and they Jones and Sheridan to start that one.


On someone saying Heaslip has had an easy ride so far. Where are you getting that from? He's shown himself to be the best 8 throughout the whole season. He's proved he is as good as anyone at the dirty work. He proved he's more than capable all season long and I've no doubt he'll continue on Saturday





I'll judge him on Saturday - he deserves his place 100% - and im sure he'll do well im just making the point that this is the ultimate test of the guy





So what will you be judging him on???

[merawancha]

The Springbok team for the first Test against the British & Irish Lions
is
(Test caps in brackets):

15. Frans Steyn (27)
14. JP Pietersen (24)
13. Adi Jacobs (21)
12. Jean de Villiers (46)
11. Bryan Habana (46)
10. Ruan Pienaar (27)
9. Fourie du Preez (43)
8. Pierre Spies (19)
7. Juan Smith (54)
6. Heinrich Brüssow (1)
5. Victor Matfield (80)
4. Bakkies Botha (55)
3. John Smit (81) – captain
2. Bismarck du Plessis (21)
1. Tendai Mtawarira (10)
Replacements:
16. Gurthrö Steenkamp (20)
17. Deon Carstens (7)
18. Andries Bekker (13)
19. Danie Rossouw (36)
20. Ricky Januarie (34)
21. Jaque Fourie (42)
22. Morné Steyn (uncapped)

VS.

British & Irish Lions versus South Africa on Saturday 20th June:

15. Lee Byrne (Ospreys/Wales)
14. Tommy Bowe (Ospreys/Ireland)
13. Brian O'Driscoll (Leinster/Ireland)
12. Jamie Roberts (Cardiff Blues/Wales)
11. Ugo Monye (Harlequins/England)
10. Stephen Jones (Scarlets/Wales)
9. Mike Phillips (Ospreys/Wales)
8. Jamie Heaslip (Leinster/Ireland)
7. David Wallace (Munster/Ireland)
6. Tom Croft (Leicester Tigers/England)
5. Paul O'Connell (Munster/Ireland) – Captain
4. Alun-Wyn Jones (Ospreys/Wales)
3. Phil Vickery (London Wasps/England)
2. Lee Mears (Bath/England)
1. Gethin Jenkins (Cardiff Blues/Wales)
Replacements:
16. Matthew Rees (Scarlets/Wales)
17. Adam Jones (Ospreys/Wales)
18. Donncha O'Callaghan (Munster/Ireland)
19. Martyn Williams (Cardiff Blues/Wales)
20. Harry Ellis (Leicester Tigers/England)
21. Ronan O'Gara (Munster/Ireland)
22. Rob Kearney (Leinster/Ireland)

Lets hope Brussow has a shocker on his full test debut!

[manofmunster]

Hmmm - test team pretty much as expected - well done to DOC for grabbing the bench spot (though i'd rather him in the starting fifteen over AWJ (who's a fine player but will get battered by botha at 2 in th lineouts - just doesn't have the physical attributes to compete with the big man)


AS mentioned elsewhere - shanklin/fla/TOL and especially ferris a massive loss to the test 22 ....


Boks to win by 10pts

[Lenden]

The springbok XV looks absolutely awesome. I fear for the lions. I'm getting that sense of doom last felt prior to the 1st test in 2005

[LeinsterTrue]

Im a very proud Irishman today 8 of our lads in the match 22 is a great return ,Id have bitten your hand off 6 months ago if offered that many

... and just think. We would also have had TOL, Ferris &amp; Fla in there but for injuries.

Ferris for sure, fla almost certainly, not sure about TOL. Though with TOL there maybe ROG would also have been on. We'll never know....

[manofmunster]

P.S - Croft will get bent over at the breakdown like he's never been bent over before .... a lamb to the slaughter


no sheridan or shaw smileys/lol.gif.... the english media will be having kittens smileys/lol.gif

[Loop]

Im a very proud Irishman today 8 of our lads in the match 22 is a great return ,Id have bitten your hand off 6 months ago if offered that many

... and just think. We would also have had TOL, Ferris &amp; Fla in there but for injuries.

Ferris for sure, fla almost certainly, not sure about TOL. Though with TOL there maybe ROG would also have been on. We'll never know....


TOL would definitely have been in ahead of Ellis, if not ahead of Phillips. Note it's the 22 that we're talking about.

[someoneelse]

Cant wait to heat what Stephen Jones says in the times!!!


I hear skyareupset Nick Kennedy didnt make it!!

[pancake]

Ferris would have walked into the blindside flank in this team. real shame he got a knock.

Drico should fancy his chances at having a good go at the bok midfield

[desert man]

I feelbad for ROG not making the 15.


Going out on a limb and predicting the Lions to win on Saturday by a narrow margin.

[hego]

croft get eaten alive!


pity ferris is out, he would have been great


Rog not being select at fly half is a mistake i believe, he would relish the chance


hope jones proves me wrong and doesn't have a shocker or we will be crucified!

[rookie]

Delighted for the Irish in the starting team. Rog will start the 2nd test imo.


Shocked that Fitz didn't make the bench. He has had a good tour so far.

[sarciegit]

What prop was on standby?Murray is going home...

Healy was one of the stand by props but assume they'll be looking for a tighthead if any replacement at all.



By my reckoning there's only one tight head of note left in ireland &amp; the British Isles but i think we'd all riather see him milk some cows until september rather than go out to be a dirt tracker for a game

[canine]

Really not concerned what the english media have to say ,these are the guys who wanted Wilkinson and Cipriani to tour ,what a joke

[Junster]

Team is along expected lines but I fail to understand how Jones got in ahead of Rog on the basis of the 1st 6 matches of this tour!??? Rog's accurate place kicking and kicking out of hand will be badly missed when the Boks back row suffocate the Lions forwards imo! Obviously the fact that Jones and Phillips areused to playing together must have weighed in his favour but I've found Jonesvery avg on this tour!


Croft is fastand has a good eye for the line but hedoesn't seem to have the required physicality for this type of match- real pityFerris isinjured as he would make a huge differenceto this sideimo!


Bench is worrying to say the least if either a centre or Croftgets injured. Jones moving to centre alongside Rog would be an untried combination and moving either Wally, Heaslip or Williams to 6 would also bea serious concern vsthe World Champions in their own backyard!


Still I trust that Boks' rustiness will help Lions pull off 1st test by a narrow margin - or not if Jones isn'twearing his kicking boots on!?

[canine]

Me thinks ROG better off comming on with 10 to go ,this whole thing could get very ugly ,dont think he,d cope with early intensity

[rookie]

Have people forgotten that Jones kicked the ball dead from a penalty? I mean come on.


ROG should be starting the test

[ECHO]

Lads, in the interest of completeness and keeping the site some way in order, can you please not start new threads without any new/real information.

Thanks
SRG



i had new/real information that is why i started the thread

[kahalui]

If Darcy was on the bench who would cover FB? kearney on the bench covers more options



tommy bowe.. the guy can play anywheresmileys/wink.gif

[Hugonaut]

Bench is worrying to say the least if either a centre or Croft*gets
injured. Jones moving to centre alongside Rog would be an untried
combination and moving either Wally, Heaslip or Williams to 6 would
also be*a serious concern vs*the World Champions in their own
backyard!*

Agreed - it's a bench on which the forwards have been chosen for
tactical reasons, the backs by necessity [with the exception of the
hooking berth.]

Just trying to go through the permutations:
1] if Jenkins gets injured, Vickery will switch to loosehead and Adam
Jones will come in as tighthead;
2] if Mears is injured, Matthew Rees will come on and we'll lose;
3] Vickery can't last 80mins at 34 years old, so Adam Jones gets the
nod ahead of Sheridan, and will definitely see game-time;
4/5] If POC or AWJ goes off, DOC comes on, with him going to 2 in
the lineout and the other second row going to 4;
8] If Heaslip gets injured, Wally moves to 8, Williams comes on;
7] if Wally gets injured, Williams comes on, and will come on at some
stage as a tactical swap in all likelihood;
6] If Croft gets injured, I could see DOC coming in to the second row
and AWJ moving to 6; gives a more familiar and balanced second
row and AWJ is a better player in the loose than DOC. Or they could
just bring on Williams, obviously, and switch Wally to 6.

If Croft is being emasculated by the Bok backrow physically, they
could decide to bring on DOC with Jones moving to 6; if Brussouw is
hogging the breakdown, they could switch Wally to blind and bring on
Williams.

I think that Wally will be instructed for the first half to man-mark
Brussouw on Lions ball - just absolutely f*cking hammer him at
every breakdown. Brussouw is always near the ball, so it'll be legal,
and while it won't scare him off, it'll make him a lot less effective
than he was for the Cheetahs [when he had no proper openside in
opposition]. Thusly I think we'll see a lot less of Wally with ball in
hand.

Croft is going to have to have a very good game in terms of his lines
of running, ball retention and linking, as I suspect he'll be used off
the centres as a runner. Getting Drico with ball in hand and having
options of Roberts, Croft and Bowe/Monye/Byrne will be a powerplay
for the Lions.

Heaslip will end up doing a lot of Croft's work for him at tackle and
breakdown, but he's more than accomplished enough to do it. He's
always been effective at the breakdown at every level he's played
[his performances in the Churchill Cup a couple of years ago were an
eye-opener for many who thought of him as a show-pony], and if he
goes well – which he has done in every big game this season – the
Lions should be okay in that regard.

The Lions can't afford to lose [in order of importance]
1] Drico - beyond his own loss, you'd lose his ability to marshall the
backline offence and defence, and you'd f*ck up the threequarter line
by having to bring Bowe inside – much as he's done well for the
Ospreys at 13, I'm doubtful that he could have the same effect
against the Boks;
2] Mears - enter Matthew Rees, exit chances of a win;
3] Roberts - bring on O'Gara and move Stephen Jones to 12? Move
Drico to 12, Bowe to 13 and bring on Kearney? Move Bowe to 12 and
bring on Kearney? Too many variables depending on how the game
is unfolding.

Everyone else is more or less replaceable, even POC [it'd obviously
be a big loss, but positionally speaking, just bring on DOC and AWJ
reverts to a more usual role at 4 in the lineout, captaincy goes to
Drico].

[ruckinhell]

Hugonaut- Pretty spot on analysis there, although I'd add Gethin Jenkins to that list of players we can't afford to lose- If Vickery is forced to play loosehead for 60+ there will be serious question marks over our ability to dominate the scrums. I reckon Jenkins will provide some excellent backup for the kind of close in grunt work which Croft isn't so skilled at; Jenkins has been a revelation over the last couple of years, he seems to be up there with the Bull in the amount of work he gets through in a game, and is a very solid scrummager/ball carrier to boot. Top player.

[hooke]

I am still amazed Shaw is on the tour ...he's a walking penalty machine and is not up to test standard.


Delighted for DOC will never let you down, has played very well. Fitzgerald can count himslef a little inlucky. Adam jones unbelieveably weak option, sheridan must have pissed in Geecs pint or the Weslh bias is holding sway.


Rory best should be called into the squad as cover for mears Rees and Fod are crap.


|SHould be a close run thing.

[ruckinhell]

Adam Jones was excellent in the Lions games he's played this tour. He'sbeen selected for thebench on merit and if you think Sheridan is more deserving you're judging on reputation, have youactually watchedany of the games up to now?


Moreover Sheridan is a loosehead whereas Jones is a tighthead, the reasoning seems to be that Vickery will probably need replacing before Jenkins (hence the need for a TH on the bench), and if the occasion arises whereJenkins is injured than Vickery will switch sides to LHwith Jones moving to TH.






Fitz can count himself unlucky in fairness, he would have probably provided better covering options than Kearney- wing/centre and FB at a push as opposed toa specialist FB who has had a fewless than convincingappearances on the wing. Wrong callin my opinion (for what it's worth)but I have faith in the Geech!

[Brian9848]

The big call was always going to be who gets to play 7. With Wallace getting the call, Croft should be no surprise although there had been whispers that Williams and Wallace would be 7 and 6 respectively. Broussow's ground game was exemplary against the Lions with Wallace at 7, and so it really must have been a close call.

Management is playing to a Wasps/Wales blueprint which demands at least parity, if not outright supremacy at the breakdown. Dynamic ball carriers close to the ruck who can keep the ball alive, and get some go-forard off slow ball are also important and so I
always felt Jenkins and Vickery would get the nod, and that POC would
be partnered by either Shaw or AWJs. I dont think we'll see as much of POC as a ball carrier in the Test matches.


The Lions have not been able to get a gain line advantage except through the midfield with the wingers hitting the 10,12 channel and Roberts hitting it up aggressively. However, ther Lions are more vulnerable to turnover ball away from the ruck although an advantge at scrum-time really should help this more than has been apparent to date.

I think the Boks are quite vulnerable. They have no recognized kicker, and a 10 and 15 who have not had much game time all year. Most importantly, the Boks are severely undercooked and this battle-hardened Lions teams has the leadership, personnel and tactical nous to beat the Boks in the fist test and gather momentum, and build pressure from there.

[hooke]

Adam Jones was excellent in the Lions games he's played this tour. He'sbeen selected for thebench on merit and if you think Sheridan is more deserving you're judging on reputation, have youactually watchedany of the games up to now?





Yup watched all games, still think Adam Jones is sh1te...but I also have faith in the Geec smileys/lol.gif

[sewa]

Its a very lightweight pack and I would have a number of worries....


1- If Mears gets injured early we are in serious trouble (WTF is Best not there???)<S&#079;NG> Agreed</S&#079;NG>


2 - I think Wyn Jones will struggle against Botha in the lineout and didn't look comfortable as a No2 jumper at all - Would have had Hines start and Jones on the bench. <S&#079;NG>Awful selection</S&#079;NG>


3 - Croft will get blown away I fear and Heaslip is going to have to spend the game head down in every ruck to cover for this instead of matching up against Spies... <S&#079;NG>Might be right but then again most pundits expect the Boks to blow them away up front hence the odds</S&#079;NG>


4 - Jones I have worries with his goal kicking as it hasn't been that good and he doesn't have great range and I fear that could cost us, then again ROG hasn't been great tactically kicking so swings and roundabouts..


5 - Monye I have serious worries about his defence...great at stopping a guy running straight into him but weak when guys don't run straight into him and expect the Boks to really target him. <S&#079;NG>Rubbish. This was the easiest call on tour</S&#079;NG>


6 - Jones, Rees, DOC, Ellis are not real game changers at all on the bench and I wouldn't be expecting much impact.... <S&#079;NG>True but you forgot to add Rob Kearney and expecting a second row to change the game is fanciful at best</S&#079;NG>


All in all this team is showing the massive losses that Flannery, O'Leary, Ferris, Quinlan, Shanklin were to the squad...stick them in and this game is a massive test for the Boks

[The Outlaw]

The big call was always going to be who gets to play 7. With Wallace getting the call, Croft should be no surprise although there had been whispers that Williams and Wallace would be 7 and 6 respectively. Broussow's ground game was exemplary against the Lions with Wallace at 7, and so it really must have been a close call.

Management is playing to a Wasps/Wales blueprint which demands at least parity, if not outright supremacy at the breakdown. Dynamic ball carriers close to the ruck who can keep the ball alive, and get some go-forard off slow ball are also important and so I always felt Jenkins and Vickery would get the nod, and that POC would be partnered by either Shaw or AWJs. I dont think we'll see as much of POC as a ball carrier in the Test matches.

The Lions have not been able to get a gain line advantage except through the midfield with the wingers hitting the 10,12 channel and Roberts hitting it up aggressively. However, ther Lions are more vulnerable to turnover ball away from the ruck although an advantge at scrum-time really should help this more than has been apparent to date.

I think the Boks are quite vulnerable. They have no recognized kicker, and a 10 and 15 who have not had much game time all year. Most importantly, the Boks are severely undercooked and this battle-hardened Lions teams has the leadership, personnel and tactical nous to beat the Boks in the fist test and gather momentum, and build pressure from there.






Andthe lionshave a completely unbalanced backrowin the abscence of a genuine blindside flanker. Something you omitted from your synposis.The Lionsalso have a severaly underpowered second row that will leave POC to do all the work.the lions will be minced in a maul situation close to the line. And they leave out the most destructive scrummager available- not even on the bench? Extraordinary.


If this goes pear shaped - the Lions won't be beaten they will be tonked.

[sewa]

The most destructive scrummager is someone who never carries and does f**k all tackling.

[The Outlaw]

But the scrum is the one area where the Lions have an advantage. I'd say the Boks are delighted he's not involved at all. I'd have him there instead of Jones.

[sewa]

I give up.

[The Outlaw]

We're all entitled to our opinion .

[tickettout]

We're all entitled to our opinion .





For months Outlaw you have been talking up the Boks, from talking about Juan Snith being the key cog to the colour of Pierre Spies jocks.


I propose a 4 week ban on your opinion if the Lions take them on saturday,


I'l offer up one week of mine if the Boks winsmileys/wink.gif they are the bookies odds


Deal?

[wally_fan]

The big call was always going to be who gets to play 7. With Wallace getting the call, Croft should be no surprise although there had been whispers that Williams and Wallace would be 7 and 6 respectively. Broussow's ground game was exemplary against the Lions with Wallace at 7, and so it really must have been a close call.



must have been very tight alright - but once ferris was injured croft was pretty much guaranteed 6 - and so wally was simply vital. the backrow would otherwise have been simply blown off the field. with 60mins gone though williams is some weapon to be able to introduce. ferris is a huge huge loss.


your comment that brussouw owned the lions at 7 against wally isn't true btw - he certainly came out way way on top, but he was up against worsely.


i think wally, as a world class 7 won't be shaking too much in his boots - it's very easy to get yourself hugely fired up for a one-off game (look at munster -all blacks and timmy ryan) - i think we should only rate brussouw if he can do it twogames in a row. this is after all still his debut

[The Outlaw]

We're all entitled to our opinion .





For months Outlaw you have been talking up the Boks, from talking about Juan Snith being the key cog to the colour of Pierre Spies jocks.


I propose a 4 week ban on your opinion if the Lions take them on saturday,


I'l offer up one week of mine if the Boks winsmileys/wink.gif they are the bookies odds


Deal?





Dealsmileys/biggrin.gif

[Fresh Start]

I don't get the bashing of Adam Jones, the option was him or Sheridan. I'd say Jones has been the better player on the tour of the 2. When you add in, as someone mentioned, that Vickery isn't going to last 80 minutes, then Jones has a slightly better case than shunting Jenkins to TH. Jenkins is a better prop and a better rugby player than Sheridan. If he was English he'd be getting the praise Sheridan does and then some. Jones has been better on tour so far. It's fairly straight forward as selections go.


I'm really pleased for DOC, not least because he's been excellent at the breakdown yet all you hear is commentators bigging up Shaw or AWJ and moaning about lack of impact at the breakdown. Glad to see the selectors are watching the games not listening to journos and Sky.


BTW I fully expect if Croft is doing the standing out stuff to see Wally and Heaslip over run while trying to cover all the breakdowns and then being blamed for it completely by certain elements of the media.

[wally_fan]

BTW I fully expect if Croft is doing the standing out stuff to see Wally and Heaslip over run while trying to cover all the breakdowns and then being blamed for it completely by certain elements of the media.





that's what i'd be very afraid of too. i don't think it's too much of an exaggeration to say that the lions probably can't win the series now they have no ferris. that irish backrow had the perfect mix and balance to take on the saffies - croft weakens it immeasurably at the breakdown which then affects the backline

[tickettout]

We're all entitled to our opinion .





For months Outlaw you have been talking up the Boks, from talking about Juan Snith being the key cog to the colour of Pierre Spies jocks.


I propose a 4 week ban on your opinion if the Lions take them on saturday,


I'l offer up one week of mine if the Boks winsmileys/wink.gif they are the bookies odds


Deal?





Dealsmileys/biggrin.gif





If the Boks when you wont see me on here until after the second test, likewise if the Lions win you can have a month of redtube as a substitutesmileys/thumb-up.gif


See you in four weekssmileys/wink.gif

[Ruck]

Now how am I supposed to cheer for the Lions tomorrow?

[tickettout]

Now how am I supposed to cheer for the Lions tomorrow?


smileys/lol.gif


Its a win win situation for you ruck, this time tomorrow there will be one less big mouth around.

[banjaxed]

Match thread here?


start a new one?


Or chat room?

[mr chips]

Chatroom probably handiest.

[Johnny_Utah]

Chatroom probably handiest.
Where's the link to the chatroom?

[ozoyo]

Go to the home page and click on the link on the left column.

[ListryMurphy]

Christ, what's happening?

[RED 49]

Christ, what's happening?
scrum being DEMOLISHED thats what

[MunsterLux]

Lions are getting destroyed! The Beast is walking all over Vickery.
Stephen Jones is having a shocker of a game. He's missed 2 penalties.
And the Lions are giving penalties away like sweeties.
Basically they're being bossed around the field by the Springboks. smileys/sad.gif

[cornerboy]

If that was the Bull, he would be destroyed by Barnes. Now he just refers to the scrum or the set piece. Also the lineout was only being lost when called to the back, since POC has called them on himself its OK.

[Hawkeye]

Linout crap, scrum a diaster and Stephen Jones having a mare of a time. I knew he was the wrong choice of outhalf.

[ListryMurphy]

Christ, what's happening?
scrum being DEMOLISHED thats what



Absolutely! The beast is awesome. Time to bring on Jones!

[MunsterLux]

I'm not sure how much of this I can watch. It's like Men vs Boys. And
now Tommy Bowe gets a punch in his face in front of the ref and
nothing said ffs.

[sewa]

Bowe was not punched.

[MunsterLux]

He most definitely was. When he was in a scuffle with Habana off the
field some other bok came over and dawked him in the face.

The bench definitely turned the game around for the Lions, but all a bit
too late really. And next they'll have high altitude to contend with on top
of everything.

[sewa]

Dawked him? It was a nothing flick and it missed.

[MunsterLux]

Fella, I know what I saw so don't try to convince me otherwise.

[laois for sam]

o driscoll was excellent with roberts, thought heaslip and croft had great second halves

[The Outlaw]

went as expected re ally it was only when the boks ran the subs that the lions came into it
Minced at scrumtime, minced at the breakdown, no control at halfback
Shambles really , bod had a fine game as did roberts but that was it really
Series over
Wont see ticketout for a month now smileys/biggrin.gif

[Travellingkitty]

smileys/sad.gifWell that was very disappointing even if the last 20 minutes were exciting stuff. I think the coaching team have to take a lot of the blame for some poor selection decisions. The subs bench made a big difference when they came on.


Scrum and lineout really let us down and poor finishing was the difference between victory and defeat. Monye alone missed 10 and arguably 15 points. Stephen Jones' goalkicking and decision making was miserable.


Adam Jones, Rees &amp; DOC coming on made a huge difference to the scrum and impacted lineout positively also.


I suggest if the Bull plays well on Wed he'll start the 3rd test. Probably too much to expect he'll be in selection contention for next week.


It's going to be an uphill struggle to win two at altitude. I think it's probably too big an ask. Huge missed opportunity today.


Still at one stage it looked like being worse than 2005 so have to take some consolation.

[MunsterLux]

Another good thing to take from today is that JdV is injury free smileys/wink.gif

[thecoolfreak]

After what happened to Vickery Hayes won't play in a test match. Hayes is an even taller man than Vickery and so offers more of a target for the Beast. It'll be Jones for the next two

I thought Kearney had a good game when he game on. Was pleasently surprised

[Aussiedub]

Coolfreak - the difference Hayes has over Vickery is that he is far more powerful than Vickery and can cope easier

[thecoolfreak]

Coolfreak - the difference Hayes has over Vickery is that he is far more powerful than Vickery and can cope easier

Thats true but he'll only just about cope. He won't go forward. Jones was starting to go forward so he has to stay in now

[Travellingkitty]

The Bull will play on Wed and if he performs I reckon he'll make the 22 with Adam Jones in the 15.

[JoeyFantastic]

Jones did very well, the only reason Hayes will get on the bench is
because you couldn't risk Vickery again after that display. I feel sorry
for the guy, in an ideal world he'd get a chance to redeem himself but
there's not enough games to risk it.

[Downsouthdukin]

After what happened to Vickery Hayes won't play in a test match. Hayes is an even taller man than Vickery and so offers more of a target for the Beast. It'll be Jones for the next twoI thought Kearney had a good game when he game on. Was pleasently surprised



kearney was great. he had ice in his veins. the kick that he recieved just on was pure class. bounced over him, flicked it back to keep it in and then sent it 60 yards up the pitch.
i thought all the irish lads played well. POC and heaslip had big second halfs. Wallace was good all game but i think they'll go with williams next week.
stephen jones will be hammered but bar the poor second kick he missed he was really good. got his centres into the game.

the 3 english lads should defo be dropped vicks, mears and moyne. cant wait to hear st. jones of the times excuse for all three. it'll probably be POCs fault

[Aussiedub]

Coolfreak - the difference Hayes has over Vickery is that he is far more powerful than Vickery and can cope easier

Thats true but he'll only just about cope. He won't go forward. Jones was starting to go forward so he has to stay in now



I would query though whether the go forward from the scrum that Jones will give is of greater value than the lineout lifting and size/power in the mauls that Hayes gives...

[scotscor]

Jones did very well, the only reason Hayes will get on the bench is

because you couldn't risk Vickery again after that display. I feel sorry

for the guy, in an ideal world he'd get a chance to redeem himself but

there's not enough games to risk it.
Hayes cant be on the bench with Jones at TH as neither can play loose. Only Vickery and Jenkins can play both sides, so one or other has to be in the 22. If Vickery is out of it then you have to have Sheridan on the bench as anything happens to Jones and jenkins can slip over.

[tickettout]

went as expected re ally it was only when the boks ran the subs that the lions came into it
Minced at scrumtime, minced at the breakdown, no control at halfback
Shambles really , bod had a fine game as did roberts but that was it really
Series over
Wont see ticketout for a month now smileys/biggrin.gif


It will be a week from today (this post), reference the quote


Alas one final pearl of wisdom before the sentence


Get to yere betfair accounts fast, Pires running around 5 o clock at Ascothas been given as a blinding each way bet. chance the win at 8's.

[scotscor]

After what happened to Vickery Hayes won't play in a test match. Hayes is an even taller man than Vickery and so offers more of a target for the Beast. It'll be Jones for the next twoI thought Kearney had a good game when he game on. Was pleasently surprised







kearney was great. he had ice in his veins. the kick that he recieved just on was pure class. bounced over him, flicked it back to keep it in and then sent it 60 yards up the pitch.

i thought all the irish lads played well. POC and heaslip had big second halfs. Wallace was good all game but i think they'll go with williams next week.

stephen jones will be hammered but bar the poor second kick he missed he was really good. got his centres into the game.



the 3 english lads should defo be dropped vicks, mears and moyne. cant wait to hear st. jones of the times excuse for all three. it'll probably be POCs fault
Thought Heaslip was poor, would drop him for Williams with Wallace moving too eight and Heaslip/powell on the bench

[Peacock]

The Beast srummaging was illegal in every aspect, i counted only one scrum in which hewasnt. He was pushing up and boring sideways he was also not letting Vick bind. It was a poor ref display at scrum time not for the first time either.

[Aussiedub]

After what happened to Vickery Hayes won't play in a test match. Hayes is an even taller man than Vickery and so offers more of a target for the Beast. It'll be Jones for the next twoI thought Kearney had a good game when he game on. Was pleasently surprised



kearney was great. he had ice in his veins. the kick that he recieved just on was pure class. bounced over him, flicked it back to keep it in and then sent it 60 yards up the pitch.
i thought all the irish lads played well. POC and heaslip had big second halfs. Wallace was good all game but i think they'll go with williams next week.
stephen jones will be hammered but bar the poor second kick he missed he was really good. got his centres into the game.

the 3 english lads should defo be dropped vicks, mears and moyne. cant wait to hear st. jones of the times excuse for all three. it'll probably be POCs fault
Thought Heaslip was poor, would drop him for Williams with Wallace moving too eight and Heaslip/powell on the bench



There is absolutely no chance of that happening...They will not throw Wallace in at 8

[Downsouthdukin]

Jones did very well, the only reason Hayes will get on the bench is
because you couldn't risk Vickery again after that display. I feel sorry
for the guy, in an ideal world he'd get a chance to redeem himself but
there's not enough games to risk it.Hayes cant be on the bench with Jones at TH as neither can play loose. Only Vickery and Jenkins can play both sides, so one or other has to be in the 22. If Vickery is out of it then you have to have Sheridan on the bench as anything happens to Jones and jenkins can slip over.

jenkins and jones can play either side

[Techdog]

HD here.


Tactics wrong I think and selection. Went blind too often whenall the damage was coming from the centres. Jones' missed six points would have made a big difference at that stage. Also Luke Fitz would have finished one of those Monye tries.

[scotscor]

Jones did very well, the only reason Hayes will get on the bench is

because you couldn't risk Vickery again after that display. I feel sorry

for the guy, in an ideal world he'd get a chance to redeem himself but

there's not enough games to risk it.Hayes cant be on the bench with Jones at TH as neither can play loose. Only Vickery and Jenkins can play both sides, so one or other has to be in the 22. If Vickery is out of it then you have to have Sheridan on the bench as anything happens to Jones and jenkins can slip over.



jenkins and jones can play either side
Pretty sure adam is only a tight head

[JoeyFantastic]

There is absolutely no chance of that happening...They will not throw
Wallace in at 8

Heaslip didn't have a stormer though. Ferris was a massive loss today.

[oilean]

Agree Techdog re Moyne He messed up badly Bad enough
once but twice

[Techdog]

Agree Techdog re Moyne He messed up badly Bad enough
once but twice


All bias aside, I really think Fitzy would have finished one, same the other night with the jammy try given. (This is Hopelessly Devoted so don't blame Techdog!)

[Aussiedub]

There is absolutely no chance of that happening...They will not throw
Wallace in at 8




Heaslip didn't have a stormer though. Ferris was a massive loss today.


Agree he didn't have a stormer but he was nearly having to do the work of 2 men at the breakdown with Croft out loose most of the time....he was ending up doing all the dirty work in tight..


Ferris a massive massive loss....Smith would certainly have been in pain going for that try he ran through Croft

[SecondRowGal]

How USELESS is Phillips!smileys/sad.gif All right, he got that try, but if we had a decent scrum half who could pass without a hop, skip and a jump, then we would have had three tries by then. Of course, the alternative (Harry E) is not much better...

Jones was about a mile back from him also. Waaaaay too far back. Maybe that was supposed to negate Phillips slow pass but it was so slow that the Boks were still up on the Lions' back line in time to push back the gain line, again and again.

Is it too much to ask that a player is able to do the number 1 fundamental piece of play to his position??

[shtove]

The Beast srummaging was illegal in every aspect, i counted only one scrum in which hewasnt. He was pushing up and boring sideways he was also not letting Vick bind. It was a poor ref display at scrum time not for the first time either.
Two points:

You play the ref.

He got mullered by Jones.

[hooke]

The Beast srummaging was illegal in every aspect, i counted only one scrum in which hewasnt. He was pushing up and boring sideways he was also not letting Vick bind. It was a poor ref display at scrum time not for the first time either.


Dead right - ref showed he had no idea what was going on - gave everything first half Boks way a bit more balanced after the bolloking he got at half time no doubt - but he didnt give lions a break.

[antipopper]

Some Lions fans obviously from England had the grace to dress up in Colonial uniforms in the heart of Natal, i sometimes wonder why we have to associate ourselves with tools like this once every 4 years.

[WhoWriteTheScripts?]

There is absolutely no chance of that happening...They will not throw
Wallace in at 8




Heaslip didn't have a stormer though. Ferris was a massive loss today.



Ferris a massive massive loss....Smith would certainly have been in pain going for that try he ran through Croft

That's what I was thinking - running high and carrying the ball on his blindside with his ribs all exposed to the defender...

[laois for sam]

some lads a bit harsh of heaslip, his opposite man was just as quiet, thought he did a lot of work at the rucks. wallace came into it but it looks like he might lose out. don't know what it is about o connell and this lions jeresy, he never seems to play well

[WhoWriteTheScripts?]

Some Lions fans obviously from England had the grace to dress up in Colonial uniforms in the heart of Natal, i sometimes wonder why we have to associate ourselves with tools like this once every 4 years.


'It's their culture'...

They have colonialists. We have leprechauns.

[Clubman]

Some Lions fans obviously from England had the grace to dress up in Colonial uniforms in the heart of Natal, i sometimes wonder why we have to associate ourselves with tools like this once every 4 years.


Uniforms straight from Rorkes Drift even. Couldn't agree more.

[fitzy73]

Agree Techdog re Moyne He messed up badly Bad enough
once but twice


All bias aside, I really think Fitzy would have finished one, same the other night with the jammy try given.




Way off the mark there Techdog.





smileys/wink.gif

[Point]

My Lions team


15. Byrne (Kearney if he isn't fit)
14. Fitzgerald (Monye was in for his attacking ability, yet was s**te there as well)
13. Bod
12. Roberts
11. Bowe


10. Rog (on the basis that you have to get your kicks)
09. Phillips (if only we had a passer)


08. Wallace (we need both himselfand Williams on the pitch, for the breakdown/linking)
07. Williams
06. Croft (won't be dropped now)



05. POC
04. DOC (scrum was unbalanced with AWJ who was absent, with Shaw on bench)


03. Jones
02. Rees (Rory Best and Fla must be shaking their heads)
01. Jenkins

[thecoolfreak]

some lads a bit harsh of heaslip, his opposite man was just as quiet, thought he did a lot of work at the rucks. wallace came into it but it looks like he might lose out. don't know what it is about o connell and this lions jeresy, he never seems to play well

Agree on that. I thought Heaslip was solid, definitely shouldn't be dropped. Wallace came into it more and more as the game progressed. Reckon he could lose out to Williams as the Lions now know they need to play a very open, expansive game. They are going to struggle to beat the Boks up front

Such a frustrating game, because it could easily have been won.

Monye was actually a little unlucky. At full stretch to have the ball batted out of your hands is both good defending, and almost freakishly unfortunate. In the same circumstances I doubt anyone else would have held on.

BOD had a great game. Much respect. So did Roberts. Kearney was very good also. Good efforts from Jenkins, Wally &amp; Croft.

Mears and Vickery were poor. He should have found a way to sort out his opposite no.

POC nor AWJ made a huge impact. Botha was the standout 2nd row for me.

Heazlip went missing (again).

The upside is that the Lions know how to beat this crowd. Retain possession, and keep the ball in hand.

[munster cat]

Monye is clearly clueless and does not even know how a back holds the ball going forward to the try line. Would someone tell him that he holds it inthe outside hand so that defenders cannot get nearit to get under it going over or to knock it out his hand going forward. If he knew what he was doing 2 more tries would have been scored. He should study some of Luke Fitzgerald's try scoring videos. What a waste !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Aussiedub]

Such a frustrating game, because it could easily have been won.

Monye was actually a little unlucky. At full stretch to have the ball batted out of your hands is both good defending, and almost freakishly unfortunate. In the same circumstances I doubt anyone else would have held on. - <S&#079;NG>You mean carrying the ball in the wrong hand was unlucky?? Even the Bok commentators couldn't believe it...
</S&#079;NG>
BOD had a great game. Much respect. So did Roberts. Kearney was very good also. Good efforts from Jenkins, Wally &amp; Croft.

Mears and Vickery were poor. He should have found a way to sort out his opposite no.

POC nor AWJ made a huge impact. Botha was the standout 2nd row for me.

Heazlip went missing (again). - <S&#079;NG>Well having to spend the whole match in the rucks/mauls and with a scrum being driven backwards what was he expected to do?? Did far more work in the tight then our vaunted No6...
</S&#079;NG>
The upside is that the Lions know how to beat this crowd. Retain possession, and keep the ball in hand.

How utterly predictablesmileys/lol.gif

p.s. You are all wrong. Again.

[Hugonaut]

Heazlip went missing (again).


Pierre Spies was also "missing". Maybe they were both at an
international No8 conference with Harinordoquay and So'oialo, who
were both missing from their respective teams today ... or maybe
they cancelled each other out somewhat. Do you think that's
possible?

Heaslip was always going to have to do a lot of tight work to cover
Croft's [very effective] openfield running.

Certainly not a man of the match performance, but worth keeping an
eye on Heaslip if you rewatch the match, as he put in a lot of work.

He did all the unseen things. Very good. Would that be unknown knowns, or known unknowns? smileys/lol.gif

p.s. He deserves to get the boot from the starting 15. Utterly annonymous.

[Hugonaut]

Like I said, it's worth watching the replays. It's difficult to concentrate
on an individual player during the live match – and I thought Heaslip
was quieter than usual myself – but you can often get a better idea
of a player's performance from a second, more objective viewing.

Like I said, Spies was quiet as well, despite being the widely
proclaimed "best No8 in the world": do you think that was incidental?

Also, who would you have as an 8 instead? Wallace or Powell?

PS: Delighted to see that the "unseen things" get done without
Donncha [who did well when he was introduced] on the pitch. If you
want to see a player tackling, rucking and being a lineout option,
allowing the better runners in the backrow [both Wallace and Croft]
to thrive, keep an eye out for Heaslip in the replay. As I said, not a
man of the match performance, but you're being unduly harsh.

[duckysauce]

Some Lions fans obviously from England had the grace to dress up in Colonial uniforms in the heart of Natal, i sometimes wonder why we have to associate ourselves with tools like this once every 4 years.




smileys/lol.gif

[hooke]

THe taffs want an all welsh team, according to comments on BBC Blog, typcial arrogance, calls for POC to be dropped and AWJ and HInes at locks smileys/lol.gif





Heaslip was good enough today to reatin his place, like the nudge he gave to make space for Phillips try. He will perfroma better in the harder ground of the Veldt.

.....but you're being unduly harsh.


Possibly, but it was worth it to see Aussiedud's rather lame and utterly predictable reply smileys/wink.gifsmileys/biggrin.gifsmileys/lol.gif

[Aussiedub]

.....but you're being unduly harsh.

Possibly, but it was worth it to see Aussiedud's rather lame and utterly predictable reply smileys/wink.gifsmileys/biggrin.gifsmileys/lol.gif



Well I could have said it was cause he was having to help Wallace out who was being beaten at the breakdown either...smileys/lol.gif

.....but you're being unduly harsh.

Possibly, but it was worth it to see Aussiedud's rather lame and utterly predictable reply smileys/wink.gifsmileys/biggrin.gifsmileys/lol.gif



Well I could have said it was cause he was having to help Wallace out who was being beaten at the breakdown either...smileys/lol.gif

That is what you said pretty much.

[Irelandforever]

you cant expect a team to win in any sport at the highest level, (apart perhaps from polo), where vital positions are decided upon by their place of birth or nationality, rather than their ability.

[Old Dog]

you cant expect a team to win in any sport at the highest level, (apart perhaps from polo), where vital positions are decided upon by their place of birth or nationality, rather than their ability.




You're 100% correct there, Bozo!Those damned Boks should have picked more Sri Lankans in their pack to even things up! smileys/rolleyes.gif smileys/lol.gif

[JoeyFantastic]

you cant expect a team to win in any sport at
the highest level, (apart perhaps from polo), where vital positions are
decided upon by their place of birth or nationality, rather than their
ability. *


Cough, racial quotas is SA sports, cough.

[taz]

Such a frustrating game, because it could easily have been won.indeed</span>.

BOD had a great game. Much respect. So did Roberts. Kearney was very good also. Good efforts from Jenkins, Wally &amp; Croft.But was Croft that good though?Granted 2 tries but I watched it back this evening and he was</span> rubbish at the breakdown and for the first Bok try.</span><br style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);">
Mears and Vickery were poor. He should have found a way to sort out his opposite no.Both were rubbish,as Drick said earlier to me Vickery was manshamed.</span>

POC nor AWJ made a huge impact. Botha was the standout 2nd row for me.Spot on.There will be a change there for the second match.</span>

Heazlip went missing (again).Yes.</span>

The upside is that the Lions know how to beat this crowd. Retain possession, and keep the ball in hand.Stephen Jones will start the second test so.</span>

[Aussiedub]

.....but you're being unduly harsh.

Possibly, but it was worth it to see Aussiedud's rather lame and utterly predictable reply smileys/wink.gifsmileys/biggrin.gifsmileys/lol.gif



Well I could have said it was cause he was having to help Wallace out who was being beaten at the breakdown either...smileys/lol.gif




That is what you said pretty much.



Maybe you could read the text and tell me where I said that???

[Irelandforever]

i dont know enough about internal SA sports politics to respond and it has nothing to do with us how they choose their players-as their emergence from their apartheid regime must be taken into account before criticising their system...a system that has them as world champs, best super 14 team etc etc...........but i do know there were 15 south africans on the pitch today, so either the rest of us are complete gash or the players picked for SA simply because of their colour are practising black magic or something

I would say if you are playing the world champs at any sport and to pick someone who cannot play the game at the required level anymore, even for his club, shows the lions for what it is.

for race to be an issue to the lions in the 21st century, perhaps more so than their opponents today is disgusting but unsurprising

[Point]

All very well saying Croft should be dropped, however would McGeechan have the liathroidis to drop him, and encur the wrath of the English media ?

[taz]

All very well saying Croft should be dropped, however would McGeechan have the liathroidis to drop him, and encur the wrath of the English media ?
Well said.Not a chance .He has already given the Welsh wizard 20 million zillion chances to impress and eventually he (reluctantly) left him out.

[Irelandforever]

All very well saying Croft should be dropped, however would McGeechan have the liathroidis to drop him, and encur the wrath of the English media ?

im not sure whether croft should be dropped at all, but the english media, or dear old bessie herself should have no bearing on whether he is or isnt.

munster had a problem a few years back with cork v limerick factions actually getting in the way of logical team selection, and dont say bollix as a player told me to my face! ireland had a similar politics problem. Declan kidney did a lot to sort out both problems.

it wont get sorted with the lions. imo the concept is outdated

[toomey]

The best Lions pack would include Fla, Murray, DOC, Ferris. Next weeks pack will include 5 welsh (Front Row, Jones &amp; Williams) so we are fupped.

[Borders no.2]

I haven't followed the Lions tour too much so far and I know Matthew Rees was in ropey form but surely he deserved more of a chance to displace the hapless Mears.I couldn't believe Monye was selected,then again he who pays the piper calls the tune I suppose!


The main thing from an Irish point of view is that everyone is fit for the start of the Heineken Cup and the Autumn Internationals.

[paul21733]

All very well saying Croft should be dropped, however would McGeechan have the liathroidis to drop him, and encur the wrath of the English media ?


Can you play Croft andM.Williams together?It would be completelysacrifice any physicalityfor the backrow, I think they should go withWallace, Heaslip and Williams or Croft, Heaslip, Williiiams. Would it be absurd to suggestmoving Wally to 8 and bringing Williams into 7 with Heaslip being the impact sub. Also when is the team being named forthe 2nd test?

.....but you're being unduly harsh.

Possibly, but it was worth it to see Aussiedud's rather lame and utterly predictable reply smileys/wink.gifsmileys/biggrin.gifsmileys/lol.gif



Well I could have said it was cause he was having to help Wallace out who was being beaten at the breakdown either...smileys/lol.gif




That is what you said pretty much.



Maybe you could read the text and tell me where I said that???

You said "Well having to spend the whole match in the rucks/mauls and
with a scrum being driven backwards what was he expected to do?? Did
far more work in the tight then our vaunted No6..."

Sub. in 7 for 6 above and repeat smileys/lol.gif

Repeat after me - Leinster good, anything else bad. So blinkered smileys/sad.gif

[taz]

My opinion is that Croft(da genius) will be retained by huge public backing ,then you pick two from Williams,Wallace and Heaslip.
I'd go with Paul above though you cant play Croft and Williams at 6 and 7 and expect to win the breakdown?

Christ ,how we miss Ferris..

[Point]

All very well saying Croft should be dropped, however would McGeechan have the liathroidis to drop him, and encur the wrath of the English media ?


Can you play Croft andM.Williams together?It would be completelysacrifice any physicalityfor the backrow, I think they should go withWallace, Heaslip and Williams or Croft, Heaslip, Williiiams. Would it be absurd to suggestmoving Wally to 8 and bringing Williams into 7 with Heaslip being the impact sub. Also when is the team being named forthe 2nd test?





Ideally, and it's what I wanted before the team was announced, Wallace at 6 and Williams at 7, with Heaslip at 8.Williams and Wallace both are excellent at what they do. But Croft having scored 2 tries, McGeechan would be slaughtered by the English media. If Croft has to stay, then Wallace at 8.

[Point]

Conor O'Shea stuck to fence, shocker ! (http://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/li&#111;ns/2009/0620/c&#111;nor_oshea.html)


Expert View: South Africa v Lions
Saturday, 20 June 2009 16:48
by Conor O'Shea


In the end, it was an unbelievable Test match.


Partly, that remarkable final quarter came about because the South Africans - not for the first time - celebrated too early. They brought off all their key players.


To be fair, when the Lions were mauled backwards 30 metres before conceding the second try, it looked like the game was up. As well as that you have to say that until the final quarter, the South African kicking game had taking a lot of the physicality out of the contest.


Fourie Du Preez, Bakkies Botha, John Smit and Ruan Pienaar all went off - though it was interesting to see Pienaar and Smit coming back onto the field for technical reasons.


From the Lions perspective, they were on the wrong side of the referee for a lot of the match and the lineout struggled as well. But the positive is that they managed to turn it around and it is a testament to the squad ethic they have been talking about.


Roberts and O'Driscoll - a huge plus


Another huge plus is that in Jamie Roberts and Brian O'Driscoll they had players who were cutting the Springboks to pieces, especially towards the end of the match. Rob Kearney also came in and did very well and Adam Jones made a huge difference and will start next week.


Looking at the scrum, Tendai Mtawira could have been called a couple of times for the way he bound. The Lions must be thinking they should have made the call to replace Phil Vickery sooner rather than late as he had gotten on the wrong side of the ref and that never looked like changing.


There is also no doubt that the South Africans were tired by the last quarter and in that sense, the Lions have missed a great chance. This is the match they were supposed to be undercooked for. They may cope better with the move to altitude and they will have had a full Test and an extra week. However, they will have to tighten up their defence and especially their midfield.


Looking at the series, I do think it was a game the Lions needed to win. I think the Boks will be stronger next week and it might almost have been better for the Lions if they had got their easy win - they have had a wake up call.


For the Lions, it is a matter of taking away the positives, working on the weaknesses and having a go next week.

[Point]

Eddie Butler in the Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2009/jun/20/li&#111;ns-south-africa-first-test-durban)gives a decent report


<S&#079;NG>Lions' woes in the set piece mean that points are hard to come by</S&#079;NG>

With key Springboks having been taken off, the Lions should temper any optimism taken from the final quarter in Durban


Nobody really ever questioned the selection of Phil Vickery at tighthead prop. The venerable Cornishman had scrummaged well on tour and had been seen as an apostle of the quiet determination that had steered the Lions through some close warm-up games. If anything, he was going to be one of the strike weapons against a weak point of the Springboks, their scrum.


Instead, he was blasted out of the set piece by Tendai Mtawarira, blasted into frustration by the whistle of Bryce Lawrence. One of the penalties looked harsh, as the South Africa scrum twisted the Lions towards the touchline before the ball was put in, but once a referee senses weakness it gives him a chance to show off his knowledge of one of the more esoteric disciplines.


And even if Vickery feels, as front-row forwards invariably do, that referees don't really understand the mechanics of his craft, he has been around long enough to realise that you simply do what the bloke with the whistle orders. This had echoes of the World Cup final of 2003, when England were nearly whistled out of victory by Andre Watson.


The difference here was that the pain of Vickery very nearly carried his team to a heavy defeat. Whatever was going wrong, it was put right by the introduction of Adam Jones. The Wales tighthead had played his part in nudging the Lions to victory against the Southern Kings, just as Euan Murray had provided the platform for the last-ditch victory over Western Province.


Jones immediately satisfied the New Zealand referee that all was now fair and dandy in the Test that had turned to dust. In an instant reversal of direction, the Lions were suddenly moving downfield, able to give Brian O'Driscoll and Jamie Roberts gaps to hit and angles to work.


The centres looked full of thrust, but it was the old anchor position of tighthead prop that made it all possible. Props rock.


Matthew Rees also made a difference. For some reason, presumably his line-out throwing, the Wales hooker has not received much support in the e-communications that flash around the world. But he was very steady here, accurate at the lineout and another bulwark at the scrum.


Once the woes of the tight forwards were lightened the Lions looked a different team altogether, and not just in the centre, their most obvious point of penetration. This was a good day to be a replacement. Rob Kearney came on for Lee Byrne, who had slipped away down the tunnel before kick-off in the company of a physiotherapist before taking his place in the line-up, but who did not last the course.


Kearney settled in brilliantly, safe under the high ball and returning it with a boot every bit as booming as Byrne's. He also kept his head up when running with the ball, offloading and generally oozing common sense. In this game of swinging fortunes many a pre-conceived notion of who might be the key players for the Lions was turned upside down.


In the end, the sense of relief at salvaging something in the context of the series, as opposed to nicking a result at the death, overcame any analysis of the wasted chances. The two near-tries by Ugo Monye and the knock-on by Mike Phillips a millimetre from the line. They seemed like incidental waste – why worry about the failure to pick up seven points when you're going down by 20?


But the sudden conversion of scrum solidity into points meant that every point counted. Perhaps Monye could be forgiven for carrying the ball in the wrong, inside hand once. But twice? Losing the ball while crossing the line should be anathema to a poacher.


There were some who started an

[exiledinmunster]

[QUOTE=Point]All very well saying Croft should be dropped, however would McGeechan have the liathroidis to drop him, and encur the wrath of the English media ?


Can you play Croft andM.Williams together?It would be completelysacrifice any physicalityfor the backrow, I think they should go withWallace, Heaslip and Williams or Croft, Heaslip, Williiiams. Would it be absurd to suggestmoving Wally to 8 and bringing Williams into 7 with Heaslip being the impact sub. Also when is the team being named forthe 2nd test?





Yes it would be absurd

[exiledinmunster]

[[/

Repeat after me - Leinster good, anything else bad. So blinkered smileys/sad.gif






Said the pot to the Kettle

[click]

15 Kearney (assuming Byrne is unfit)


14 Bowe


13 O'Driscoll


12 Roberts


11 Fitzgerald (provided he plays well on Tuesday)


10 Jones


9 Phillips


8 Heaslip


7 Williams (Harsh on Wallace marginal call)


6 Croft


5 O'Connell


4 O'Callaghan


3 Jones


2 Rees


1 Jenkins


16. Mears 17. Sheridan 18. Jones 19. Wallace 20. Ellis 21.O'Gara 22. Moyne/Hook (nobody else Williams in poor form, Earls too green)

[Aussiedub]

.....but you're being unduly harsh.

Possibly, but it was worth it to see Aussiedud's rather lame and utterly predictable reply smileys/wink.gifsmileys/biggrin.gifsmileys/lol.gif



Well I could have said it was cause he was having to help Wallace out who was being beaten at the breakdown either...smileys/lol.gif




That is what you said pretty much.



Maybe you could read the text and tell me where I said that???




You said "Well having to spend the whole match in the rucks/mauls and with a scrum being driven backwards what was he expected to do?? Did far more work in the tight then our vaunted No6..."

Sub. in 7 for 6 above and repeat smileys/lol.gif

Repeat after me - Leinster good, anything else bad. So blinkered smileys/sad.gif



So absolutely no mention of Wallace or anything at all....but you just change what I wrote and complain what I said....


As for Croft name me another No6 in world rugby who is as poor in the tight as Croft and spends his time out on the wings and ensures the 7/8 spend the whole game in close???

[Munsterboy]

Croft won't be dropped and to be honest, I don't think we have any better option to play 6 anyway.


The back row should be unchanged, the front 5 is where we have the options. I'd go with the Welsh front row and Irish locks. Wejust a set of forwards who can achieve something closer to parity in the tight. We have the backs to cut them apart.

[The Outlaw]

The boks will improve hugely people seem to forget that. Burger will probably be fit, fourie will replace jacobs- the rest were fine. If the lions couldn't beat them yesterday- they won't at altitiude. It was only when the subs were ran the Lions came back into it.


People grossly underestimated the quality and class of Ruan Pienarr- who in my mind is close to being as good as Dan Carter. His goalkicking, positional sense, tactical kicking and passing from someone who hadn't played in weeks were simply different league


I'd be heavily critical of the management for making a balls of the selection and therefore giving themselves no chance yesterday. They had to win yesterday and all the defiencies beforehand were pointed out here beforehand. Yet the management couldn't see this.

[sparks]

Anyone see the rubbish printed in the Indo??

Seems like they love Barnes:

<div =" font-null">


Six minutes into the second half and the exhaustively hyped Test match between South Africa (http://www.independent.ie/topics/Springboks) and the British and Irish Lions (http://www.independent.ie/topics/British+%26+Irish+Li&#111;ns) is already in garbage time.

And
it's not just the match itself but the two Tests to come: that's an
awful lot of dead competition for a sporting event that has been
ballooned into the stratosphere by all the hot air money can buy.

When
South Africa rumbled over for their second try in the 46th minute, they
led by 19 points. But it wasn't the margin on the scoreboard that told
the story, it was the crushing ease with which they'd done it.

The rugby might of England (http://www.independent.ie/topics/United+Kingdom), Wales (http://www.independent.ie/topics/Wales) and Ireland (http://www.independent.ie/topics/Ireland) (and Scotland (http://www.independent.ie/topics/Scotland)),
had been overpowered and trampled underfoot. It began two minutes
earlier when the South Africa forward pack got hold of the ball,
assembled in maul formation and then quite literally marched down the
field, like a phalanx of Roman legionnaires from some old swords 'n'
sandals movie.

The Lions pack was marched backwards like it was a Renault Clio (http://www.independent.ie/topics/Renault+Clio)
and the Springbok pack a juggernaut that had the right of way on a
one-way street. "This is a fully fledged humiliation against the Lions
pack," remarked Stuart Barnes (http://www.independent.ie/topics/Stu+Barnes)
in commentary as the players in red were shunted down the field -- and
shunted down the field with such force they were almost running
backwards.

South Africa were then awarded a kickable penalty but
instead of taking the points, they went for the killing score. They
would kick to touch, win the line-out, reassemble the maul and drive
across line. And that's exactly what they did.

The world
champions led 26-7 and the game, and the series, was dead only to
stiffen. "Technically, they are being brutalised by the Springbok
pack," added Barnes. He could have left out the "technically".

The
Lions had been brutalised then, and they had been brutalised as early
as the 10th minute when, at the first scrumdown, they were crumpled
like an accordion with holes in it. They were monstered in that scrum;
"atomised," said Barnes.

The venerable Phil Vickery (http://www.independent.ie/topics/Phil+Vickery) was under such pressure from his direct opponent Tendai Mtawarira (http://www.independent.ie/topics/Beast+Mtawarira)
that his head kept shooting up, like a rivet being popped off a steel
plate by industrial-powered steam. "This is a full-scale sporting
disaster zone at the moment," groaned Barnes. He could have left out
the "zone". This was a full-scale sporting disaster full stop -- for
the Lions players, their fans and, not least, for Sky Sports, whose
executives must have been watching through their fingers as they
counted the plummeting viewing figures.

Poor old Vickery should
have been pulled off on 20 minutes. Astonishingly, he came out for the
second half. It would take "bravery" on the part of the management,
said Barnes, to make the call. Bravery? They need spectacles if they
couldn't see what was happening. Five minutes later he was finally
hauled ashore, like a boxer being spared further punishment by his men
in the corner.

Then came t

[glorob]

I would say the coaches and in particular Ian McGeehan are responsible for the loss.


The failure to substitute 2 and 3 earlier and playing Jones at 10 cost the Lions the game.

[sparks]

Although saying that with one or two changes in the next test and i can see the Lions winning.

[[/

Repeat after me - Leinster good, anything else bad. So blinkered smileys/sad.gif






Said the pot to the Kettle

You can't even quote accurately!

I suggest you go back a page or two and see my first comment on this thread.

I lavished deserved praise on BOD and Kearney.

.....but you're being unduly harsh.

Possibly, but it was worth it to see Aussiedud's rather lame and utterly predictable reply smileys/wink.gifsmileys/biggrin.gifsmileys/lol.gif



Well I could have said it was cause he was having to help Wallace out who was being beaten at the breakdown either...smileys/lol.gif




That is what you said pretty much.



Maybe you could read the text and tell me where I said that???




You said "Well having to spend the whole match in the rucks/mauls and with a scrum being driven backwards what was he expected to do?? Did far more work in the tight then our vaunted No6..."

Sub. in 7 for 6 above and repeat smileys/lol.gif

Repeat after me - Leinster good, anything else bad. So blinkered smileys/sad.gif



So absolutely no mention of Wallace or anything at all....but you just change what I wrote and complain what I said....


This relates solely to Heazlip. I didn't mention Wallace. Your pathetic efforts at deflecting/turning will not work.

[sparks]

I lavished deserved praise on BOD and Kearney.


Yeah deserved praise. They were very good

[The Outlaw]

Although saying that with one or two changes in the next test and i can see the Lions winning.


Very difficult to adapt to altitude in 5 days. Better off if they don't go up there till the day before the game. I think they could win the 3rd test. I think they haven't a prayer next Saturday regardless of selection.

[mrstambourineman]

If a largely 2nd Munster team can nearly upset the ABs it shows you how small things are the big difference.
You could see the Lions wilt as the game went on. That shows they were not where they could have been mentally.
You'd have to think the Lions are playing with a different mentality than teams have when they play for their country.
They certainly gifted the Boks an easy way into the game with the errors in the opening quarter. The scrun, Monye's failure to score, Jones missing kicks.
Being written off and POC getting stick will only help them but I doubt they will do it.

[Hopelessly Devoted]

<H1 =ing>Lions dream is far from over</H1>
<H2 ="sub-ing padding-top-5 padding-bottom-15">The last 20 minutes proved the tourists have the mental courage, the skill and the tempo to level the series in Pretoria</H2>
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<DIV =article-author>Stuart Barnes
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The Lions must produce the game of their lives if they are to level the series in Pretoria next weekend. That is the bad news. The good news is that they have the ability and, more importantly, the bravery to push the world champions all the way in rugby’s spiritual heartland of Loftus Versfeld.


Here’s the Lions perspective. The last 20 minutes proved the team have the mental courage, the skill and the tempo to win; that if they start as they finished in Durban, they will prevail in Pretoria. South Africa will have a different outlook. Pieter de Villiers will point out how many of his star players were taken off around the hour mark, and that his side dominated proceedings while the juggernauts were in control.


Both are, in their own ways, absolutely right, which makes the match so fascinating, so thrillingly unpredictable. The Springboks will see the surplus of substitutions as well as the shortage of match practice as the keys to improving their game and closing out the series; that and sorting out the defensive problems in midfield through which the mesmerising combination of Jamie Roberts and Brian O’Driscoll burst so often.


These factors apart, the Springboks will consider the first hour a more accurate reflection of the gulf between the two teams. This version of reality seems a closer approximation to the hard facts than the wild optimism of the almost unforgettable last quarter of the game. And yet, and yet, the Lions did lacerate the Springboks from first to last. Given more and better ball, there is plenty of reason to believe.
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[Fresh Start]

The kicking has started in some English press. Apparently Wallace and Heaslip are "underpowered at this level" but Croft was immense. As for Barnes's comments, how is DOC or Shaw going to add bulk over the supposedly 19 stone AWJ? Unless we're finally going to admit that 1) the Welsh weights are rubbish and 2) AWJ is a lightweight, even Habana was throwing him around near the end, although again the press wouldn't tell you that.


Realistically none of the hookers are up to the job so it doesn't make a difference. All 3 of the other locks would be more physical than AWJ in contact. If they opt for Williams and Croft in the back row then they'll have to put some serious muscle into the front 5 cos otherwise they won't have any possession to make the running game work.

[The Outlaw]

If they put williams and croft in together- they needn't bother turning up. They just won't get any ball.

[Captain-Hero]

I would say the coaches and in particular Ian McGeehan are responsible for the loss.


The failure to substitute 2 and 3 earlier and playing Jones at 10 cost the Lions the game.





Not too far off the mark there.


I'm optimistic though.


Set piece is broken, if they fix it it's a different situation


If Jones had taken the two chances in the first half it could have been a different game. (chances that I think ROG or Hook would have taken)


I think Philips shouldn't have ran when there was a chance of 3 points deep in the second half. Would have set up a 2 point game instead of 5.


All if's and but's I know.


Did SA make any line break other than the one for the first try?

[eoinmc]

When is the team for the game against the Emerging Boks announced ?

[The Outlaw]

Tomorrow.

[The Blues]

If a largely 2nd Munster team can nearly upset the ABs it shows you how small things are the big difference.
You could see the Lions wilt as the game went on. That shows they were not where they could have been mentally.
You'd have to think the Lions are playing with a different mentality than teams have when they play for their country.
They certainly gifted the Boks an easy way into the game with the errors in the opening quarter. The scrun, Monye's failure to score, Jones missing kicks.
Being written off and POC getting stick will only help them but I doubt they will do it.



What you forgot to add was a 2nd string Munster team were playing a 3rd string All Black team.

20 wins in 21 internationals by Tri Nations teams over Six Nations teams in 2008 says it all about the gulf in class between hemispheres.

[mrstambourineman]

If a largely 2nd Munster team can nearly upset the ABs it shows you how small things are the big difference.
You could see the Lions wilt as the game went on. That shows they were not where they could have been mentally.
You'd have to think the Lions are playing with a different mentality than teams have when they play for their country.
They certainly gifted the Boks an easy way into the game with the errors in the opening quarter. The scrun, Monye's failure to score, Jones missing kicks.
Being written off and POC getting stick will only help them but I doubt they will do it.



What you forgot to add was a 2nd string Munster team were playing a 3rd string All Black team.

20 wins in 21 internationals by Tri Nations teams over Six Nations teams in 2008 says it all about the gulf in class between hemispheres.


you missed the point.

[macnda]

It is hard not to pick the team with green tinted spectacles. On a good lions tour being Irish, Welsh etc goes out the window.


I was at a Lions lunch yesterday with Brian Moore for my local club and it was embarrasing all the questions should O'Gara have started, how did the Irish play etc amd my personal favourite " There is a feeling in the room watching that match that the current Irish team would have beaten SA today ".


My over-riding thoughts about the game are that the Lions left one behind, there were 4 nearly tries for us, one close one for them with the kick in behind. Apart from the first 5 mins of the second half when the Saffers scored that rolling maul try, I thought they looked beatable.


My Second Test team


15 Kearney - Looks like Byrne is not right.


14 Bowe - Did'nt get enough ball. Think he would have taken one of the chances that Moyne could'nt


13BOD


12 Roberts


11Fitzgearld - I think it was fair that Moyne got his chance, I think Luke deserves his now, as long as his kicking game looks OK. That will be a bigger factor in the second test. I assume/hope Williams is toofarback to get on the test team.


10 Jones/O'Gara- To close to call. I would probably prefer O'Gara but then there is the combinations factor.


9 Phillips -Key position where there is no choice


8. Heaslip. Tempted to go for Wallace but I dont remember him shining at 8


7 M Williams. Has to play if able to inmy opinion. Class act. Think wallace did well and I dont have a problem if the selectors play him


6 Wallace- Croft will probably keep his place with his support play.


5 O'Connell. Not his best game but did many things well and caught some good ball. Took on responsibility in the lineout in the second half and seemed to gel with Rees. Just wonder if he has grown into the captaincy quick enough.


4 O'Callaghan. Deserves to be in ahead of AWJandShaw, will relish the pyshicallity and will work well with POC.


3 A.Jones. Not much choice and did well yesterday.


2 Rees. Did better than Mears and part of a Welsh front Row


1 Jenkins Did better than many of the forwards yesterday.


Bench


Hayes, Mears, AWJ, Croft, Ellis, Jones or O'Gara, Darcy.

[Munsterboy]

Front row:if Murray and Sheridan were fit there might be an argument to bring in the heavies to improve our maul defence as well as the scrum. As it is, Jenkins, Rees, Jones is the only way to go.


Second row:we don't need a free-running ballplayer at 4, we need a grafter. The DOC/POC combination is tried and tested and they're both playing well. AWJ is a good player but a luxury we can't afford.


Back row:we have no alternative at 6 so we have to pick a 7 to complement Croft. That's still Wallace imo but with amore effectivetight 5, maybe we could afford to give Williams a go. Heaslip worked his socks off and deserves to hold on to 8.


Half back:no alternative to Phillips. Jones missed a couple of gimmes but did work well with Roberts. No change.


Backs:no point picking a finisher who can't finish soFitz in for Monye. Kearney in for Byrne if he's not fit.


If we get closer to parity up front, and we should, we can cause the Boks serious problems. We were destroyed up front at times yesterday but still could/should have had3 moretries. Our backs are streets ahead of theirs.

[LLCOOLJ14]

Half back:no alternative to Phillips. Jones missed a couple of gimmes but did work well with Roberts. No change.





Prob the most important call...Jones doesnt really have the range or consistancy imo,that we need, to take all our pens V SA...but even ignoring the missed kicks at goal, he had a howler of an effort when kicking for the corner with our penalty with about 2 minutes to go. I dont know why this hasnt happened yet, but Id much rather see Kearney when he is on the pitch taken our penalty kicks for the right hand side of the pitch...it makes so much sense to have a leftie doing this...would like him to do the same for Ireland....

[The Outlaw]

Front row:if Murray and Sheridan were fit there might be an argument to bring in the heavies to improve our maul defence as well as the scrum. As it is, Jenkins, Rees, Jones is the only way to go.


Second row:we don't need a free-running ballplayer at 4, we need a grafter. The DOC/POC combination is tried and tested and they're both playing well. AWJ is a good player but a luxury we can't afford.


Back row:we have no alternative at 6 so we have to pick a 7 to complement Croft. That's still Wallace imo but with amore effectivetight 5, maybe we could afford to give Williams a go. Heaslip worked his socks off and deserves to hold on to 8.


Half back:no alternative to Phillips. Jones missed a couple of gimmes but did work well with Roberts. No change.


Backs:no point picking a finisher who can't finish soFitz in for Monye. Kearney in for Byrne if he's not fit.


If we get closer to parity up front, and we should, we can cause the Boks serious problems. We were destroyed up front at times yesterday but still could/should have had3 moretries. Our backs are streets ahead of theirs.





I wouldn't agree at all that the lions backs are streets ahead of the Boks. the Boks played a conservative gameplan and never used their backs. The Lions have the edge in the centre but the boks have the better halfbacks and better back 3 IMO.

[Hopelessly Devoted]

<H1>Phil Vickery's international career could be over after mauling by the Beast</H1>
• Lions to drop Vickery for second Test
• South Africa's Tendai Mtawarira proved too hot
<DIV id=c&#111;ntent>
<DIV id=article-wrapper>


Phil Vickery's long and success-drenched international career may be over after the destruction inflicted by South Africa's front row on the Lions scrum in yesterday's first Test in Durban. Graham Rowntree, the assistant forwards coach who oversees scrummaging, said today that changes will be made to the front row for Saturday's second Test in Pretoria.





Vickery was hauled off on 44 minutes after being targeted by the Springboks whose loose-head prop, Tendai Mtawarira, belied his reputation for being a passive scrummager. He won the engagement with Vickery whose head was forced upwards and inwards, conceding three penalties in the process, two of which were translated into points.





Vickery and his fellow England front rower, Lee Mears, are the likely casualties on Saturday with the Lions set to start with the Wales three that finished in Durban: Gethin Jenkins, Matthew Rees and Adam Jones. At 33, and with 77 internationals behind him, 73 with England, there may be no way back for Vickery, a World Cup winner in 2003 and finalist four years later. It would be an unfitting ending for a player who has always conducted himself with dignity and who, the day before the game, was speaking about the respect he had for the South Africa captain, John Smit.





"We were done in the scrum and we have no complaints," said Rowntree. "South Africa put pressure on us in the engagement and we are not blaming the referee. We have a lot to work on and we have to put things right by Saturday. We will make changes in the front row, but it is not about blaming individuals. Scrummaging is a collective thing. Phil is hurting physically and mentally, but we are all in this together. What was pleasing was that we rectified the problems during the game and we have to start like that next week."





Adam Jones, Vickery's replacement, said he empathised with the Englishman. "The Beast is a very strong bloke and a bit like Andrew Sheridan," said Jones. "I played against him last November and know how powerful he is. That was clear for others to see during the Super 14. When I came on, he may have been tiring because he was not too bad.





"I do not know what went wrong with the scrum in the first-half because I was not on there, but a couple of the penalties looked harsh. The scrum should be square and steady before the ball is put in, but South Africa chased it a few times and caught us out."





Rowntree said another cause for concern was the way the Lions defended rolling mauls, with South Africa's final try coming from two driving line-outs, the first of which rumbled on 35 yards. "A few of the players will be very embarrassed when they look at the video of that," he added. "Some of the tactics used to defend their rolling mauls were not good enough and it is an area we will be paying attention to."





While the Lions had problems up front, they were the sharper side behind. "We have given ourselves a mountain to climb but we showed in the tries we scored and the chances we created that the series is far from over," said the outside-half, Stephen Jones. "We have the weapons to fight back."</DIV></DIV>

[dave_ie]

MY Lion Team for Next Week Game would be the Same only for ROG on and Williams on like to see the Bull up agaisnt the Beast in the scrum.

[exiledinmunster]

MY Lion Team for Next Week Game would be the Same only for ROG on and Williams on like to see the Bull up agaisnt the Beast in the scrum.





Bit harsh on Wallace to be dropped for Williams. Would not fancy Hayes' chances especially considering he would be nowhere near match fit

[Fresh Start]

Thing is how can people on here moan about media bias and then scream for a man who's just come onto the tour to be in the test side ahead of players already out there and doing ok? Jones will be the test TH and that's what he should have been from the start (and thankfully I can say I said that before the game).

[dave_ie]

Well Williams did come in very well when he did come on Jones, was good on Saturday but the 9 points he missed could have won the match for the lions and free kick he had to go for touch line but some how only got it 5yards from were he was.

What i cant under stand his how they had Vickery on when he cant evening make it onto the English team, only reason his on that team is cos of Injury. when Adams came on the beast couldnt do much with him.

[busbi]

Not being biased here, but i think starting Hayes would be a stroke of genius. Main reason would be lineout, and if the Lions management get to see him working with POC/DOC during the week then it might click for them. Secondly, he'd add much needed bulk around the park. His reputation as a poor scrumager will scare some people given what happened Vickery, but 'the beast' is actually the type of prop that Hayes is made for. He struggles against technically adept props, not the big lumps.

[Hugonaut]

For all Paul Wallace's faults as a pundit [the Belgrano remark,
anybody?], I'm pretty sure that he knows scrummaging inside out. If
he says that Vickery's height and long back were a big part of the
problem, Hayes' taller height and longer back aren't going to be part
of the solution.

Vickery has never previously been exposed as a scrummager, and
while Hayes has improved throughout the course of his his career, I'd
be extremely doubtful that slotting him into what will surely be an
otherwise all-Welsh front row would be a better choice than slotting in
the last part of that Welsh front row, who did well when he came on
as a sub and has improved with every game on this tour.

The scrum was a bigger problem than the lineout [we didn't concede
any points directly from lineouts, if I recall correctly], so I think
Adam Jones's name is already down on the team sheet. Vickery was
so discomfitted that Hayes may make the bench in his place though.

PS: A belated apology to Dermot G.
I followed my own advice and watched the game again: Heaslip did
have a very quiet game. Made his tackles and contributed well to the
rucks, but didn't force any turnovers at the breakdown, didn't steal
any ball, didn't smash anybody in the tackle, didn't make any forceful
runs and didn't make any offloads or put anybody into space.

Won the sole lineout ball that was thrown to him, but otherwise not a
great day at the set piece, and twice looked unsure of himself at the
back of the scrum, once getting turned over [in fairness, the scrum
was getting minced at the time]. A workmanlike effort, but nothing
more, and the worst of the Lions backrow. Probably his worst
performance of the year to date.

[The Outlaw]

Don't underestimate de plessis's contribution to mincing the Lions scrum as well. The man is a beast.

...

PS: A belated apology to Dermot G.

I followed my own advice and watched the game again: Heaslip did

have a very quiet game. Made his tackles and contributed well to the

rucks, but didn't force any turnovers at the breakdown, didn't steal

any ball, didn't smash anybody in the tackle, didn't make any forceful

runs and didn't make any offloads or put anybody into space.



Won the sole lineout ball that was thrown to him, but otherwise not a

great day at the set piece, and twice looked unsure of himself at the

back of the scrum, once getting turned over [in fairness, the scrum

was getting minced at the time]. A workmanlike effort, but nothing

more, and the worst of the Lions backrow. Probably his worst

performance of the year to date.

No need, but thanks.

I'd have been much happier praising him, as I did BOD and Kearney, but that simply wasn't possible.

[sewa]

Don't underestimate de plessis's contribution to mincing the Lions scrum as well. The man is a beast.


Agreed and he is being opposed by a midget. One from R.Best, Chuter or Hartleyshould be flown in but won't be. Can't believe either that people think the Bull will be the answer to our scrum problems. He is a legend but not for his scrumagging

[Old Dog]

While logic and compassion would suggest that the Lions career of one of England’s most respected props should be brought to a close, Phil Vickery may be required to face his tormentor Tendai “The Beast” Mtawarira again because the Lions have run out of options.


A very significant piece of medical news yesterday was that Andrew Sheridan’s back injury has responded so poorly to treatment that Tim Payne, the Wasps prop, is being shipped in to Cape Town this morning. The logical selection for Saturday’s must-win international would be to start with Gethin Jenkins and Adam Jones, with Sheridan on the bench. But if Sheridan is not fit, Vickery may be required.


It is the unavoidable nature of Lions tours that the injury count will mount, but, with the Lions almost certain to start tomorrow’s game against the Emerging Springboks with a front row of John Hayes and Payne, fresh off the plane, there is evidence that the assembled parts are falling off before the finish line is even in sight.


The entire forward pack is now the focus for an extreme review by the selectors. Graham Rowntree, the scrum coach, said yesterday that “potentially” they would make changes in all three rows. He also said that the selectors had “picked the right guys” for Durban, although we can say for sure that it will not be the same “right guys” who start in Pretoria.


A measure of sympathy does go to the selectors because they have had so little time to prepare their team that they are still learning huge lessons even after the series has started. Nevertheless, there can be no pretending that they got it right and they have surely learnt that they made mistakes. The scrum they picked for Saturday was light and mobile and the problems faced by the front row, and in particular Vickery, arose because the Springboks were so much heavier and stronger.


Rowntree said that he did not regret that Vickery had not been substituted earlier than the 44th minute. Indeed, he admitted that they had not even considered making the change before half-time. Yet the effect of substituting Jones for Vickery was so clearly transforming that we can but wonder what might have been had a brave call been made and the England man been replaced midway through the first half.


That is why Saturday’s game was so tantalising and infuriating. The feeling that it was an opportunity there for the taking is inescapable.


And it is the cruel nature of sport that, while we pick over the bones, it is those of a proud and widely admired athlete that are being widely pulled apart. It was intensely uncomfortable to sit in the magnificent ABSA Stadium while Vickery was being so publicly exposed. As he shook his head in dismay, the penalty count against him rattling up, it was like watching a boxer whose years and bloody battles have suddenly caught up with him and reduced him to having nothing left to fight with.


Vickery said yesterday that, until he studied the tape, he remained unclear as to why Bryce Lawrence, the referee, had so taken against him. Rowntree, however, brought a swift end to any semblance of public dispute when he said that he had no problem with any of Lawrence’s decisions.


Paddy O’Brien, the IRB referees’ manager, who was effectively in charge of the refereeing team in Durban, described Lawrence’s performance as “an outstanding piece of scrum refereeing”. Yesterday, when Rowntree analysed the problem at the scrum, he stressed more than once that Vickery was not the sole offender. “By Phil’s own admittance, he struggled,” Rowntree said. “But it’s not all down to him. The rest of that pack, particularly the guys next to him and behind him, have got to help him. What we failed to do was keep a lid on The Beast at engagement time. But it’s not all about one guy.”


The same opinion was expressed by Paul Wallace, whose propping was so notable a part of the Lions success here in 1997 and is back as part of the Sky commentary team. “We didn’t scrummage intelligently,” he said, “but I wouldn’t blame

[dave_ie]

Look if they have him over Adams then I would have to say to the
back room staff take the s out of your eyes come on if he was in jail
and the beast was his roomy he be walking like john Wayne!
that said lions know what needs to be done just hope they won't be
two fired up and SA will catch them off

[BPH1]

First off, it's not Adams, Dave. Are you not wondering why everyone else is calling him Jones? And Hayes to start to shore up our already weak scrum?Sweet Jesus.


Sewa is correct that another hooker is desperately needed out there, but won't be summoned

[paul21733]

Can Jenkins operate at both sides of the scrum?According to this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rugby_uni&#111;n_positi&#111;ns#1._Loosehead_prop_.26_3._Tig hthead_prop) he can.

[LZ]

Jenkins on the tighthead side isn't a pretty sight.

[paul21733]

When has he played there?Was very surprised when I heard it, imo he's an out and out loosehead.

[busbi]

Can't believe either that people think the Bull will be the answer to our scrum problems. He is a legend but not for his scrumagging

I wasn't saying that he would solve it, just that i didn't think he would be minced. For pure scrumaging it Jones obviously.

[Hopelessly Devoted]

Ominous.
<H1>Euan Murray's absence gave us the edge, says Victor Matfield</H1>
• Springbok scrum struggled to deal with Murray on tour
• Matfield warns against sacrificing speed for second Test at altitude
<DIV sizcache="0" sizset="5">
<UL ="article-atibutes multi-pub" sizcache="0" sizset="6">
<UL>
<LI =byline><S&#079;NG>Paul Rees</S&#079;NG> (http://www.guardian.co.uk/profile/paulrees) in Durban </LI>
<LI =publicati&#111;n>guardian.co.uk (http://www.guardian.co.uk/), Sunday 21 June 2009 22.00 BST </LI>[/list][/list]</DIV>
<DIV id=article-wrapper>


South Africa's plans to demolish the Lions scrum, and so turn a perceived asset into a liability, started in earnest a week ago tomorrow when the tourists' team to face Southern Kings in Port Elizabeth was read out. There was one name the Springboks wanted to hear in the Lions' tight five for the first game of the tour that would involve a starting line-up of predominantly dirt-trackers. While much of the English media was demanding the inclusion of the England loose-head prop, Andrew Sheridan, South Africa were not bothered whether he was being saved for the Test match.


"There was one guy in the front five we were hoping would be playing on Tuesday," said the South Africa second row and vice-captain, Victor Matfield. "He was someone who had given us big problems during our tour to Europe the previous November. He had asked questions of our scrum and we did not come up with the answers. Euan Murray caused us a lot of trouble that afternoon and we were very surprised, and happy, when he was chosen to face Southern Kings because we knew that meant he would not be involved in the first Test and that we would get the edge up front."


Murray, the Scotland tight-head prop, was tipped as a likely Lions Test starter after his display against Tendai 'The Beast' Mtawarira in that November Test. South Africa's scrum became stuck in reverse gear and they were fortunate to win 14-10 after their line came under siege. Murray missed the start of the Six Nations because of injury and struggled to recapture his form of the autumn. He was third in the Lions' tight-head rankings before an ankle injury ruled him out of the tour last week.


"I have no doubt that the Lions would have turned to Murray for the second Test, but the other piece of good news for us is that he has gone home injured," said Matfield. "The Lions will work on their scrum this week and we will not catch them out as we did in Durban but we will also get better and stronger up front. I was amazed when I read in the build-up to the game that our scrum had been written off and that the Lions would dominate us there.


"We are proud of our scrum, as we have been down the years. It is what we are known for and it won us the World Cup two years ago. We went out to make a point and we spent all week working on our scrum, having a number of live ­sessions with the Emerging Springboks. If the Lions were surprised at the strength and technique of the Beast, they should not have been because he simply did to their tight-head what he had done to many others in this year's Super 14."


Phil Vickery was the Lions' tight-head and never in his long career had he endured such a miserable afternoon. He was targeted from the first scrum, forced upwards by the combined power of ­Mtawarira and the second row, Bakkies Botha. He conceded three penalties in kickable range, two of which were converted, and he was also roughed up by the hooker, Bismarck du Plessis, twice shoved to the ground and greeted by a verbal volley.


He was too stunned to resist and it was a surprise the Lions took 44 minutes to bring on Adam Jones. The Lions scrummaging coach, G

[Aussiedub]

How many people were saying that Murray wasn't a good call as a starter for the Lions and was seriously over rated.....maybe the Boks know more thensome people heredo...

[3Crowns3Stars]

Apartfrom the obvious scrum problems, the one thing that amazed me was the constant kicking of the ball directly to Steyn not just most of the time, but ALL of the time.


The guy barely had to change direction to run onto the long punts from Byrne, mainly, and to a lesser extent, Bowe.


Surely, with Steyn's reputation for almighty garryowen hoofs and very accurate touch finders, the Lion's back 3 could have steered the ball, let's say, 25 - 30 metreswide ofthe guy instead of down his throat time and again.


Alternatively, the option of a garryowen that could actually be reached by the Lions would have been better than offering Steyn his A-Game on a plate...

[FourMasters]

Apartfrom the obvious scrum problems, the one thing that amazed me was the constant kicking of the ball directly to Steyn not just most of the time, but ALL of the time.


The guy barely had to change direction to run onto the long punts from Byrne, mainly, and to a lesser extent, Bowe.


Surely, with Steyn's reputation for almighty garryowen hoofs and very accurate touch finders, the Lion's back 3 could have steered the ball, let's say, 25 - 30 metreswide ofthe guy instead of down his throat time and again.


Alternatively, the option of a garryowen that could actually be reached by the Lions would have been better than offering Steyn his A-Game on a plate...

Byrne put up a few garryowens for Monye to chase, Monye had the gas to get there but over-ran so he had to stop and turn thereby putting no pressure on the catcher. I was in the"Monye camp" for the selection, I'd forgive a younger wing but at 26 he should have better judgement.

[The Outlaw]

Emm the high ball is not Steyn's weakpoint. There is a huge amount of ignorance as to the quality of Steyn- he was one of the best underage players in the world at one time. Those sort of things are not handed out at the christmas raffles.


Steyn's weakpoint is to get a big man running directly at him. Hitting high balls at him is like throwing peanuts to a monkey unless he is jumping with someone like jamie roberts.


Mc Geechan has spent too much time listening to the circus acts he has as selectors.

[FourMasters]

Emm the high ball is not Steyn's weakpoint. There is a huge amount of ignorance as to the quality of Steyn- he was one of the best underage players in the world at one time. Those sort of things are not handed out at the christmas raffles.


Steyn's weakpoint is to get a big man running directly at him. Hitting high balls at him is like throwing peanuts to a monkey unless he is jumping with someone like jamie roberts.


Mc Geechan has spent too much time listening to the circus acts he has as selectors.

Steyn has a few more weak points than that surely, partly due to having been moved around so much in the back line. He's an outrageous talent, he is sound under the high ball, but his weak points are his decision-making - taking contact when he should pass and vice versa, he's the kind of guy makes you slap your palm to your forehead but he's still so young. Actually his defence in traffic is good, but I take your point about anyone running directly at him.

[FourMasters]

How many people were saying that Murray wasn't a good call as a starter for the Lions and was seriously over rated.....maybe the Boks know more thensome people heredo...

I rate Murray, but I'd take those bok comments with a bucket of salt. "We were really scared of one of your guys, pity he's the one that's injured</span>".